MOC Update & Sales Tour

TUGgers,

Just dropping in to say hello -- I'm here at MOC for our Week 25 (we traded Week 24 via Direct Exchange, and go to Ko Olina next week).

MOC is beautiful as always, very full, well maintained, love this place!!!

I did the sales tour yesterday (first one in 3 years) but it was a very low key, no pressure sales (my sales rep recalls all too well my response from last year's DClub launch).

No real bulletins to report -- but I do believe that the Trust Points/Exchange Points owners will continue to report reservation complications, and its becoming clearer that the two buckets don't intermix seamlessly. (Werner, nice description on the separate post).

I also believe that as SpinCo eventually expands its timeshare business (new properties and new systems such as Ritz Carlton) that those will accessible only via Trust Points and that Legacy Point owners will be restricted from accessing the expanded properties. I believe Legacy Points will always be effective for reservations in the Legacy 53 properties, even if there is some confusion on which inventory bucket (Points/Legacy Exchange) sources the reservation -- but I don't believe Legacy Points will get the free ride into an expanded system. Marriott needs to differentiate the value of purchasing Trust Points and having expanded access is a selling point.

From clues on other sales tours and from interpreting vague responses, I believe an announcement will come soon on adding Ritz Carlton to the program, and we will learn a great deal from this with respect to how Marriott will handle Legacy Points in its expansion efforts. My expectation is that the addition will be restricted to Trust Points users only (and I hope I'm wrong) --- this will be the first clear benefit to owning Trust Points.

Unfortunately, I think most purchasers of Trust Points bought them not to go to the Ritz, but to compensate for their skimmed points, and the inability to combine points for a reservation remains a major obstruction and will become a larger sore point as people experience it more.

We'll keep studying the system and evaluating how to maximize it -- and if nothing else, the Legacy 53 properties are wonderful places to vacation!

Best to all,

Greg

good afternoon

Greg...

let me see if I got this right... You purchase 3 bedroom OF at MOC L/N..the big kahona of the entire system..... Heaven knows how much you forked up for this one!!! Now they tell you... "that's swell but if you want the good stuff, you need to purchase more Trust points... To get a Ritz you will probably need to fork up 5K-7K points... another 50K $$$$.... I feel the same way, bought 4 developer weeks, now I still can't play withthe big boys...

Nice!!!

Am I missing something here???

Please enjoy your vacation!!!

GregT said:

I also believe that as SpinCo eventually expands its timeshare business (new properties and new systems such as Ritz Carlton) that those will accessible only via Trust Points and that Legacy Point owners will be restricted from accessing the expanded properties.

Click to expand...

I think this is a pretty big wildcard. While I agree Marriott will likely devise ways to make the points product more attractive compared to weeks ownership, they are going to be dependent on the legacy portfolio for some time. For one, I don't expect the resort expansion to return to anywhere near the pace we saw in the past ten years. Marriott will value access to the legacy resorts and as such still enable legacy owners to access the system. To top it off, don't undervalue the benefit of "skim" to Marriott - a value they can only realize when owners actually convert their weeks to DC points. Finally, we really don't know what tactic Marriott will take in DC Club expansion. They could easily try to pull a Worldmark (a la Wyndham) style expansion, adding resorts in cheap and less desirable locations just so they have cheap points to sell in which case maybe we're better off with our legacy resorts.

The addition of Ritz may attract some buyers, but it doesn't exactly fall into line with one of the major advantages of a point product - the ability to sell much smaller packages to middle and lower-middle class customers.

In the short and medium term I am not too worried about access to the DC Club resorts. At the end of the day, the timeshare market is WAY over saturated in my opinion. I don't think there are too many (non-international) locations that I'd really care to see added.

puckmanfl said:

good afternoon

Greg...

let me see if I got this right... You purchase 3 bedroom OF at MOC L/N..the big kahona of the entire system..... Heaven knows how much you forked up for this one!!! Now they tell you... "that's swell but if you want the good stuff, you need to purchase more Trust points... To get a Ritz you will probably need to fork up 5K-7K points... another 50K $$$$.... I feel the same way, bought 4 developer weeks, now I still can't play withthe big boys...

Nice!!!

Am I missing something here???

Please enjoy your vacation!!!

Click to expand...

Puck, the vacation is great!!! Lots of beach time, pool time, trips to Whalers Village, and scuba diving. It's been wonderful. I almost didn't do the sales tour, but I was grabbed by the guy on the sidewalk (and then spent 20 minutes with him, asking him all sorts of questions). It's nice that we have lots of Legacy Points, but I am skeptical that those will be relevant outside of the Legacy 53 properties (which are still really really nice).

We will see....

ocdb8r said:

I think this is a pretty big wildcard. While I agree Marriott will likely devise ways to make the points product more attractive compared to weeks ownership, they are going to be dependent on the legacy portfolio for some time. For one, I don't expect the resort expansion to return to anywhere near the pace we saw in the past ten years. Marriott will value access to the legacy resorts and as such still enable legacy owners to access the system. To top it off, don't undervalue the benefit of "skim" to Marriott - a value they can only realize when owners actually convert their weeks to DC points. Finally, we really don't know what tactic Marriott will take in DC Club expansion. They could easily try to pull a Worldmark (a la Wyndham) style expansion, adding resorts in cheap and less desirable locations just so they have cheap points to sell in which case maybe we're better off with our legacy resorts.

The addition of Ritz may attract some buyers, but it doesn't exactly fall into line with one of the major advantages of a point product - the ability to sell much smaller packages to middle and lower-middle class customers.

In the short and medium term I am not too worried about access to the DC Club resorts. At the end of the day, the timeshare market is WAY over saturated in my opinion. I don't think there are too many (non-international) locations that I'd really care to see added.

Click to expand...

I agree with many of your points here -- Ritz is the only near-term possible expansion (because Marriott already owns it) and Ritz only appeals to a very tiny fraction of the ownership base -- so how do you get those ownership base to pay more???? Either jack up the points requirements, or require Trust Points as the reservation currency.

I'm curious to see where Marriott takes this thing (and whether we get to go too!).

Best,

Greg

good evening

Greg

glad you are having a great time!!! don't forget mama's fish house!!!

I can live with the big 53!!!! however, the sales pitch was "tomorrows vacations at today's prices".. I was told at the time this included future resorts!!!

It doesn't really matter as i ain't purchasing any trust points. I am comfy to keep doing what I have done so far!!!

p.s. plenty of ski inventory early to mid january in DC...

puckmanfl said:

good afternoon

Greg...

let me see if I got this right... You purchase 3 bedroom OF at MOC L/N..the big kahona of the entire system..... Heaven knows how much you forked up for this one!!! Now they tell you... "that's swell but if you want the good stuff, you need to purchase more Trust points... To get a Ritz you will probably need to fork up 5K-7K points... another 50K $$$$.... I feel the same way, bought 4 developer weeks, now I still can't play withthe big boys...

Nice!!!

Am I missing something here???

Please enjoy your vacation!!!

Click to expand...

I think this is what the sales staff wants us to believe. Even though we've already paid THOUSANDS of dollars (we own two developer purchased weeks), we are now restricted in favor of new owners or current owners who purchase new developer inventory. They're atttempting to use fear to get us to buy more. They're also using envy to make us want to buy more. Don't you want to be one of the privledged few who can go anywhere, anytime and be better than everyone else?

To some extent, what the salesmen are saying seems to be true. From what I'm reading, the truth seems to lie at the 13 month mark for reservations. At the 12 month mark, it's less clear but it appears to be easier to make those legacy point reservations. If this is the case (legacy and trust won't mix), it will only be a problem for those wishing to reserve at the furthest point in the future.

TUGGER's are accustomed to the old way of exchanging. Reserver what you believe is the strongest week possible and deposit/request at the earliest point possible. Under the weeks system of exchange, that's the proven method to get the best shot at an exchange.

The two points programs we own are different and, as such, require a new way of thinking. Both allow home resort adavantage to reserve either at your home resort or, in your group of home trust resorts. If you want something else, you must wait for open booking. In one case it's 9 months in advance and in the other it's 10 months.

This is not much different than what I'm seeing with Marriott. Trust points owners who are at a certain level can easily book trust units at the 13 months mark. All others, which right now are legacy week owners, don't have access. Legacy week owners will typically have to wait until other legacy week owners turn loose of weeks. For the most part, the majority start popping up at the 12 month mark. While this is not what we had hoped for, it's still further out than the two other systems with which I'm familiar. Frustrating yes but, it's a new reality and a different system requiring modification in how we look at/for exchanges. It's not bad. It's just different. Salesmen will use this to play the fear card to get legacy week owners to buy trust points. Fear can be a strong motivating factor and, with the trust, you can buy a little now, then buy a little more later et........

As to the Ritz properties, I just keep thinking in the back of my mind that the program flopped miserably for Marriott. Now they're trying to put a spin on it by telling legacy week owners they could have access if only they'd buy some trust points. Well gee, I'd have had access if I'd just have purchased on interest in the Ritz program before the DC but, the price of admission was to high. So maybe I won't be able to reserve the Ritz properties, then again, maybe if I wait until the 12 month mark, the exchange coordinator will be able to find inventory for us after all.

I keep going back in my mind to what Marriott stated. It seems to me (I'm not re-reading all that mumbo jumbo again, others can correct me), the exchange coordinator will take all requests, trust points, legcay points and weeks requests, and assign them on the basis of availability. The trust manager has the ability to exchange from one bucket to another seemlessly so long as there is adaquate inventory to move from one bucket to the other. Even with points, if there's not enough inventory or, if there's restrictions to moving that inventory, such as holding trust inventory until the 12 month mark, giving trust owners a sort of home resort advantage, then an exchange can't happen.

So far I've seen no difference in making weeks based exchanges. Legacy points exchanges have been made without to much fuss in most cases. The issue appears to be reserving using legacy points at the 13 month mark. I believe what we're seeing is a limitation for legacy points in that trust units won't be moved/exchanged by the exchange manager before the 13 month mark.

I still feel this program is far more complicated than it should be and that Marriott has done an excellent job of making those of us who purchased direct feel like second class owners. I believe this is a bad method to push sales but, I'm not a timeshare sales manager. I know that their present stance has hardened me from recommending Marriott and is an obstacle to me ever having the desire to purchase direct from Marriott again.

The funny thing is, two years ago I was thinking of dumping my two DRI weeks in favor of buying one more Marriott week. I liked Marriott better, I could cut down on my ownership and MF's and I liked the Marriott program better. Now, it's almost reversed. If I went strictly by the operating systems, that would be how I'd be leaning going forward. Fortunately for us, we enjoy our Marriott home resorts enough I have no intention of making that change. Yes we exchange our Vegas week more often than we use it but, if we could never get a decent exchange again, we would still be happy using our Vegas week every year. For us the philosphy of own resorts you enjoy using has insulated us from the changes made by developers and the fear factor used by salesmen.

GregT said:

TUGgers,

Just dropping in to say hello -- I'm here at MOC for our Week 25 (we traded Week 24 via Direct Exchange, and go to Ko Olina next week).

MOC is beautiful as always, very full, well maintained, love this place!!!

I did the sales tour yesterday (first one in 3 years) but it was a very low key, no pressure sales (my sales rep recalls all too well my response from last year's DClub launch).

No real bulletins to report -- but I do believe that the Trust Points/Exchange Points owners will continue to report reservation complications, and its becoming clearer that the two buckets don't intermix seamlessly. (Werner, nice description on the separate post).

I also believe that as SpinCo eventually expands its timeshare business (new properties and new systems such as Ritz Carlton) that those will accessible only via Trust Points and that Legacy Point owners will be restricted from accessing the expanded properties. I believe Legacy Points will always be effective for reservations in the Legacy 53 properties, even if there is some confusion on which inventory bucket (Points/Legacy Exchange) sources the reservation -- but I don't believe Legacy Points will get the free ride into an expanded system. Marriott needs to differentiate the value of purchasing Trust Points and having expanded access is a selling point.

From clues on other sales tours and from interpreting vague responses, I believe an announcement will come soon on adding Ritz Carlton to the program, and we will learn a great deal from this with respect to how Marriott will handle Legacy Points in its expansion efforts. My expectation is that the addition will be restricted to Trust Points users only (and I hope I'm wrong) --- this will be the first clear benefit to owning Trust Points.

Unfortunately, I think most purchasers of Trust Points bought them not to go to the Ritz, but to compensate for their skimmed points, and the inability to combine points for a reservation remains a major obstruction and will become a larger sore point as people experience it more.

We'll keep studying the system and evaluating how to maximize it -- and if nothing else, the Legacy 53 properties are wonderful places to vacation!

Best to all,

Greg

Click to expand...

Hi Greg


That's consistent with an info presentation I attended.


1. The presenter stated (twice) that Legacy points have access to the pool of trust inventory at 60 days. This would appear to resemble flexchange. I can't find a reference to this in any of the governing docs. The inference is that there will be no other Legacy access to Trust inventory.

2. The presenter stated that only Trust points owners will have access to 'new' resorts -- more than 60 days out. The inference is that 'new' inventory in the Trust will never transferred to the exchange company when a Points owner obtains exchange co inventory in a Legacy resort. (A fellow attendee made the observation that this policy is diametrically opposed to the representations regarding exchange opportunities/possibilities made when he purchased his developer weeks.)


Make lots of bubbles -- enjoy your vacation!!

windje2000 said:

Hi Greg


That's consistent with an info presentation I attended.


1. The presenter stated (twice) that Legacy points have access to the pool of trust inventory at 60 days. This would appear to resemble flexchange. I can't find a reference to this in any of the governing docs. The inference is that there will be no other Legacy access to Trust inventory.

2. The presenter stated that only Trust points owners will have access to 'new' resorts -- more than 60 days out. The inference is that 'new' inventory in the Trust will never transferred to the exchange company when a Points owner obtains exchange co inventory in a Legacy resort. (A fellow attendee made the observation that this policy is diametrically opposed to the representations regarding exchange opportunities/possibilities made when he purchased his developer weeks.)


Make lots of bubbles -- enjoy your vacation!!

Click to expand...

If this turns out to be the case then it's a good thing we don't have all our eggs in one Marriott basket. It's also a good thing we enjoy the resorts we own and enjoy the non-trust resorts we can still exchange into. When Marriott gets to restrictive and/or to expensive, we're more likely to sell and buy from a more owner friendly system than to keep and buy additional Marriott inventory.

I can't see MVCI directly incorporating the Ritz product in with the DC program. They are still only semi incorporated in to Marriott Rewards? I see them still holding the Ritz program apart in some way in order to differentiate it from the Vacation Club product.

I do however see them having some type of DC to Ritz point conversion where x DC points have a value of y Ritz points to make a reservation.

I am not sure how the Grand Residents Cub works but there is already inventory in the trust for Tahoe. So I see them incorporating that somehow before Ritz.

It is possible that they may only permit Trust point owners access to these high tiered products.

This is just an aside, but I've been conducting a very un-scientific survey of the owners at the evening BBQ (I love to grill) -- and it's approx 50/50 of MOC owners who have enrolled versus those that have not. There is definite confusion regarding the value of the program, but interestingly, several that have enrolled did so simply because they trust Marriott, and not because of any desire/belief in the program.

On the non-enrolled side, there are some strong emotions....

Interesting stuff, especially since MOC owners presumably benefited from the higher DC point allocations.

Best,

Greg

All,

Clarifying information is included in the following thread -- thanks!


http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1129935#post1129935