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Marriott to Spin Off Timeshare Business [merged]

MOXJO7282

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MOXJO7282,

If you truly believe the fair price of Grande Ocean gold OF is more than $13.8K
here is chance to make quick $3k by buying this auction and flipping it for $3k more:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MARRIOTT-GRANDE...70710546158?pt=Timeshares&hash=item3f079b1eee

For the record I have no connection whatsoever with the seller (and do not believe this unit is worth the asking price).

I think you make a good point in a way. Ebay is not the true value of a resale price unless there are numerous records to consider. Like Newport Coast. Newport Coast is one of the most actively sold Marriotts on ebay, if not the most. Its fair to say that the resale value of NCV is about $8-$8.8k because dozens sell in that range.

Otherwise you really can't make any corrolations. I recently saw an Marriott Aruba Surf Plat OV 2BDRM sell for $15.6K on ebay. Is that the resale price? I don't think so, I think its more in the $13.5k-$14k range.

Now in the case of a GO Gold OF, you just don't see them on ebay and the ones on redweek are all well over $15K. I follow ebay pretty religiously and this is the first oceanfront GO gold in years.


I can tell you if you can get an oceanfront at this resort at whatever you think is a good price, I'd go for it because this is a super resort.
 

timeos2

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I apologize in advance as this has assuredly already been discussed in connection with the advent of the DC ...

It's my understanding that with deeded timeshares, HOAs must be not-for-profit (I understand they can have an operating surplus from time-to-time -- I'm talking about over the long haul). I'm wondering whether or not DC owners have the same statutory protections as deeded owners? Can someone point me to where this may have been already discussed?

I know that there can be "shenanigans" regardless of the statutory protections ... but Mstoyanov's post left me wondering if DC points owners have fewer protections (e.g., are they given an accounting that allows them to tie their maintenance fees to actual expenses)? In other words, must the books eventually be balanced for DC points owners the way they are for deeded owners?

One of the "joys" of a points/club type system is the far lesser degree of control owner have over the system. While any club has to meet regulatory standards - very similar to those of a deeded or RTU type - the newer ones tend to take advantage of the less restrictive options that may be possible. An key example would be the long, costly and highly regulated foreclosure process needed to take even a delinquent week/unit away from the deeded owner. Most clubs are simply membrship based so once you turn over your deed and the protections it offers for a "membership" you now have a different set of rules.

In one case I'm aware of the company operating the club can and will terminate the membership - meaning you lost everything you ever paid - for a missed payment or two. Or, as has happened, because the member posts what the "club" administrators feel is something detrimental to them/the club! Poof! Your membership & money are gone all from the one sided decisions of the club operator. It can be done legally, quickly and without the drawn out, costly process required of a foreclosure. It is easy to see why the operators / developers like it more than deeds. But few fully understand wat they may be giving up when they turn over their deeds. It can be far more than just your voting rights and the protection of a deeded ownership. BE careful.
 

timeos2

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You cannot dismiss a large and active market maker because you don't like the prices

I think you make a good point in a way. Ebay is not the true value of a resale price unless there are numerous records to consider. Like Newport Coast. Newport Coast is one of the most actively sold Marriotts on ebay, if not the most. Its fair to say that the resale value of NCV is about $8-$8.8k because dozens sell in that range.

Otherwise you really can't make any corrolations. I recently saw an Marriott Aruba Surf Plat OV 2BDRM sell for $15.6K on ebay. Is that the resale price? I don't think so, I think its more in the $13.5k-$14k range.

Now in the case of a GO Gold OF, you just don't see them on ebay and the ones on redweek are all well over $15K. I follow ebay pretty religiously and this is the first oceanfront GO gold in years.

I can tell you if you can get an oceanfront at this resort at whatever you think is a good price, I'd go for it because this is a super resort.

eBay is the ultimate marketplace - Redweek may ave offers with much higher prices but that is all they are - offers. The TRUE value is what a willing buyer and seller agree to - exactly what eBay generates in a wide open, public way. IF the week(s) were REALLY worth 15K the bidding would get there in most cases as otherwise it is a steal & people would jump at it. Instead it barely reaches 8-9K or less as that is the true open market value.

Those that want to dismiss eBay (or any other selling , auction sites) are really reaching to justify unrealistic valuations they feel a resort/week "deserves". The market says differently and that is the ultimate decision maker.
 

wof45

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One of the "joys" of a points/club type system is the far lesser degree of control owner have over the system. While any club has to meet regulatory standards - very similar to those of a deeded or RTU type - the newer ones tend to take advantage of the less restrictive options that may be possible. An key example would be the long, costly and highly regulated foreclosure process needed to take even a delinquent week/unit away from the deeded owner. Most clubs are simply membrship based so once you turn over your deed and the protections it offers for a "membership" you now have a different set of rules.

In one case I'm aware of the company operating the club can and will terminate the membership - meaning you lost everything you ever paid - for a missed payment or two. Or, as has happened, because the member posts what the "club" administrators feel is something detrimental to them/the club! Poof! Your membership & money are gone all from the one sided decisions of the club operator. It can be done legally, quickly and without the drawn out, costly process required of a foreclosure. It is easy to see why the operators / developers like it more than deeds. But few fully understand wat they may be giving up when they turn over their deeds. It can be far more than just your voting rights and the protection of a deeded ownership. BE careful.

DC points are deeded. MVCD is not a membership club.
 

AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
You Typed A Mouthful.

eBay is the ultimate marketplace - Redweek may ave offers with much higher prices but that is all they are - offers. The TRUE value is what a willing buyer and seller agree to - exactly what eBay generates in a wide open, public way. IF the week(s) were REALLY worth 15K the bidding would get there in most cases as otherwise it is a steal & people would jump at it. Instead it barely reaches 8-9K or less as that is the true open market value.

Those that want to dismiss eBay (or any other selling , auction sites) are really reaching to justify unrealistic valuations they feel a resort/week "deserves". The market says differently and that is the ultimate decision maker.
You are correct, sir.

And I don't have 1 single problem with that -- possibly because my el cheapo eBay timeshares are not Marriotts. Possibly also because I am only luxury-conscious & not status-conscious. And even more possibly because I bought'm on eBay, rather than selling.

Is this a great country or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

timeos2

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DC points are deeded. MVCD is not a membership club.

Simply having a deed does not in and of itself assure you of the protections of a deeded property. If it is a UDI deed legally recorded, tying you to the terms without questions, but still may not require a foreclosure to terminate your ownership as a deeded property does.

I would be interested in exactly how they have worded the ownership and what it requires to be terminated. My guess is it is a simple matter of them terminating the ownership "for cause" (such as delinquent fees) as that is how all the newer clubs tend to work it. If you find something else it would be interesting to know. This is not just Marriott but all of the travel tye systems - deeded or not. DVC is "deeded" too - but you own nothing but a right to use promise. My guess, subject to confirmation, is the Marriott plan is similar in structure/operation. But as I have not read the docs I'm open to a confirmed correction of that assumption.
 
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BarbS

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I think you make a good point in a way. Ebay is not the true value of a resale price unless there are numerous records to consider. Like Newport Coast. Newport Coast is one of the most actively sold Marriotts on ebay, if not the most. Its fair to say that the resale value of NCV is about $8-$8.8k because dozens sell in that range.

Otherwise you really can't make any corrolations. I recently saw an Marriott Aruba Surf Plat OV 2BDRM sell for $15.6K on ebay. Is that the resale price? I don't think so, I think its more in the $13.5k-$14k range.

Now in the case of a GO Gold OF, you just don't see them on ebay and the ones on redweek are all well over $15K. I follow ebay pretty religiously and this is the first oceanfront GO gold in years.


I can tell you if you can get an oceanfront at this resort at whatever you think is a good price, I'd go for it because this is a super resort.


http://cgi.ebay.com/MARRIOTT-Grande...70481324089?pt=Timeshares&hash=item5642686039

This gold Grande Ocean week recently sold for $5210. It doesn't speciiy that it's OF but I called Grande Ocean to ask where that unit is located and found out that it was indeed OF.
 

MOXJO7282

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http://cgi.ebay.com/MARRIOTT-Grande...70481324089?pt=Timeshares&hash=item5642686039

This gold Grande Ocean week recently sold for $5210. It doesn't speciiy that it's OF but I called Grande Ocean to ask where that unit is located and found out that it was indeed OF.

Well someone got a great deal on that ,if it is indeed OF. It said it had an oceanview, and didn't say OF which you would think a experienced seller would have made sure to reference, so I assumed OS. This makes me still skepical it is OF, because an OF is definaitely going to sell for more than OS and thsi seller is experienced.

Let's see if I can use this infor to low ball the other listing on ebay
 

MOXJO7282

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Well someone got a great deal on that ,if it is indeed OF. It said it had an oceanview, and didn't say OF which you would think a experienced seller would have made sure to reference, so I assumed OS. This makes me still skepical it is OF, because an OF is definaitely going to sell for more than OS and thsi seller is experienced.

Let's see if I can use this infor to low ball the other listing on ebay

I too checked an 8415 is in deed OF. I'm kicking myself because had I known I would have bought.

Why not, Even if it goes to zero resale value, an oceanfront at that resort will always have rental value.
 

siesta

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I too checked an 8415 is in deed OF. I'm kicking myself because had I known I would have bought.

Why not, Even if it goes to zero resale value, an oceanfront at that resort will always have rental value.
that timeshare seller is Uri Fried and "The Timeshare Company", they are notorious for mislabeled ads. I purchased a timeshare from them, and it didn't even state that it included a free year of usage with the MF paid for already. I see many ads that are incorrectly labeled, not always to the buyers benefit. I would definitely verify any listing before paying.
 

mstoyanov

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MOXJO7282,

It is true that a single auction on EBay does not always determine the price (there is too much statistical noise) but the auction here has "Buy Now" price and if nobody clicks on it for a while you can be assured that nobody who saw that listings consider the price to be fair for this auction let alone under priced.
If I see auction that is "anomaly" and is severely under priced and have "Buy Now" I immediately buy it and ask questions later - just yesterday I saw 2BR LO Sheraton Mountain Vista described as "prime" seasons with "Buy now" price at least $3K below real market price. I didn't waste any time asking stupid questions or trying to haggle with the seller and immediately clicked "Buy Now" since I was 95% sure I can make $3k simply by flipping the unit. Well it turned out that it was not for prime season (ski) but for summer season so I rejected the purchase but that is beside the point. If listing is really under priced (anomaly) there will always be someone with good pricing info who will buy the unit and flip it as soon as it is on his name even if he does not need it for personal use. As for the current listing there is no way it is under priced - in the last year after DC started there were at least 3 Platinum 2BR Annual Ocean Watch listings that ended for ~$10K (2 OS and 1 OV) on free bidding and I will take OV Platinum MOW anytime over OF Gold at GO. One can live with lesser view but can not change when his/her kids are out of school so in most cases season trumps the view easily (and in my very personal and subjective opinion MOW is more desired resort than GO for both trading and renting).
And what someone lists on RedWeek for doesn't matter - this is simply wishful thinking he will find a buyer who is either not patient enough or not have enough pricing info. Most of the listings on RedWeek and other similar sites stays unsold for years and/or sell for a lot less than asking prices.
I had several cases that after being very firm in my low ball offers several months later owners contact me ready to sell me the unit at my low ball price only to find that I already bought similar units cheaper and my new offer is even lower since market prices already went down in the meantime.

I think you make a good point in a way. Ebay is not the true value of a resale price unless there are numerous records to consider. Like Newport Coast. Newport Coast is one of the most actively sold Marriotts on ebay, if not the most. Its fair to say that the resale value of NCV is about $8-$8.8k because dozens sell in that range.

Otherwise you really can't make any corrolations. I recently saw an Marriott Aruba Surf Plat OV 2BDRM sell for $15.6K on ebay. Is that the resale price? I don't think so, I think its more in the $13.5k-$14k range.

Now in the case of a GO Gold OF, you just don't see them on ebay and the ones on redweek are all well over $15K. I follow ebay pretty religiously and this is the first oceanfront GO gold in years.


I can tell you if you can get an oceanfront at this resort at whatever you think is a good price, I'd go for it because this is a super resort.
 

dan_hoog

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Is there a chance this is 'ultimate occupancy' where the deed unit doesn't match the view once a newer building is built? I know they do this as resorts are built... I don't know how you could be sure without an estoppel to Marriott or knowing someone on the inside (which I do).


I too checked an 8415 is in deed OF. I'm kicking myself because had I known I would have bought.

Why not, Even if it goes to zero resale value, an oceanfront at that resort will always have rental value.
 

OldPantry

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One of the "joys" of a points/club type system is the far lesser degree of control owner have over the system. While any club has to meet regulatory standards - very similar to those of a deeded or RTU type - the newer ones tend to take advantage of the less restrictive options that may be possible. An key example would be the long, costly and highly regulated foreclosure process needed to take even a delinquent week/unit away from the deeded owner. Most clubs are simply membrship based so once you turn over your deed and the protections it offers for a "membership" you now have a different set of rules.

In one case I'm aware of the company operating the club can and will terminate the membership - meaning you lost everything you ever paid - for a missed payment or two. Or, as has happened, because the member posts what the "club" administrators feel is something detrimental to them/the club! Poof! Your membership & money are gone all from the one sided decisions of the club operator. It can be done legally, quickly and without the drawn out, costly process required of a foreclosure. It is easy to see why the operators / developers like it more than deeds. But few fully understand wat they may be giving up when they turn over their deeds. It can be far more than just your voting rights and the protection of a deeded ownership. BE careful.
There seems to be a persistent misunderstanding about what happens when existing timeshare owners join the vacation club. They DO NOT turn over their deeds. They give up no existing rights, and cannot be thrown out at the whim of the club operator. The existing timeshare owner simply has the right to exchange for points, on a yearly basis, at his or her own convenience. You have to buy new points to be put in the position you warn about, and it still applies ONLY to those new points. So why are you constantly beating this drum?
 

timeos2

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There seems to be a persistent misunderstanding about what happens when existing timeshare owners join the vacation club. They DO NOT turn over their deeds. They give up no existing rights, and cannot be thrown out at the whim of the club operator. The existing timeshare owner simply has the right to exchange for points, on a yearly basis, at his or her own convenience. You have to buy new points to be put in the position you warn about, and it still applies ONLY to those new points. So why are you constantly beating this drum?

Because "You have to buy new points to be put in the position you warn about," - those buyers are in a bad position and may not be informed adequately prior to making a potentially bad choice. Plus even the "voluntary" annual assignment of use rights can be canceled by the club - effectively returning you to a fixed week ownership andv your conversion fees lost. It isn't only Marriott that pulls this - it is virtually all of the "club" type systems.

Informed people make better decisions and have less complaints. Getting people fully informed is what TUG is all about. I happen to like club system & points but that doesn't mean I close my eyes to the possible pit falls and that I shouldn't do my best to minimize our exposure to potentially costly things they can impose.
 

OldPantry

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eBay is the ultimate marketplace - Redweek may ave offers with much higher prices but that is all they are - offers. The TRUE value is what a willing buyer and seller agree to - exactly what eBay generates in a wide open, public way. IF the week(s) were REALLY worth 15K the bidding would get there in most cases as otherwise it is a steal & people would jump at it. Instead it barely reaches 8-9K or less as that is the true open market value.

Those that want to dismiss eBay (or any other selling , auction sites) are really reaching to justify unrealistic valuations they feel a resort/week "deserves". The market says differently and that is the ultimate decision maker.
The thing about Ebay is that it attracts the most desperate sellers, and mostly, the least desirable weeks. You rarely see an oceanfront platinum week offered without a substantial reserve. So, yes, Ebay is the ultimate marketplace for junk, and the prices there are a true reflection, in general, of the value of junk. I think most of the activity for good stuff occurs elsewhere, though. People with value weeks tend to go to Redweek or MyResortNetwork to market their timeshares. That makes the higher end of the market harder to track, but it's still a real, and active, one.
 
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OldPantry

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Because "You have to buy new points to be put in the position you warn about," - those buyers are in a bad position and may not be informed adequately prior to making a potentially bad choice. Plus even the "voluntary" annual assignment of use rights can be canceled by the club - effectively returning you to a fixed week ownership andv your conversion fees lost. It isn't only Marriott that pulls this - it is virtually all of the "club" type systems.

Informed people make better decisions and have less complaints. Getting people fully informed is what TUG is all about. I happen to like club system & points but that doesn't mean I close my eyes to the possible pit falls and that I shouldn't do my best to minimize our exposure to potentially costly things they can impose.
Who could argue with the desirability of being well informed? What you're doing, though, is making folks less well informed. Nobody is "turning over their deeds" by joining the vacation club. That's just wrong, and you should stop saying it!
 

SueDonJ

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Is there a chance this is 'ultimate occupancy' where the deed unit doesn't match the view once a newer building is built? I know they do this as resorts are built... I don't know how you could be sure without an estoppel to Marriott or knowing someone on the inside (which I do).

I'm pretty sure Grande Ocean didn't sell with UO. It's never come up in the TUG discussions about UO anyway, and considering that DaveM owns GO it probably would have.
 

timeos2

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Who could argue with the desirability of being well informed? What you're doing, though, is making folks less well informed. Nobody is "turning over their deeds" by joining the vacation club. That's just wrong, and you should stop saying it!

Different clubs do it differently - in fact some have both (turn over deed or not) to really confuse things. I have not, and will not, sit through a presentation regarding the Marriott DC. If you say they do not have any option of giving up your deeded ownership to them in return for a RTU or any other type of membership I will take your word for it until someone else says it isn't that way. So assuming you are corect only those that are planning to purchase "new" DC points would be needing the warning about the lack of protections they may expect. It is all so (purposefully) convoluted and intertwined that exactly what you get and for how much is always a moving target.

Again this is not just a Marriott issue but one they now fall under along with many other systems as they moved to the new type of exchange model based on points vs simple deeded weeks.
 

wof45

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I have not, and will not, sit through a presentation regarding the Marriott DC. If you say they do not have any option of giving up your deeded ownership to them in return for a RTU or any other type of membership I will take your word for it until someone else says it isn't that way. So assuming you are corect only those that are planning to purchase "new" DC points would be needing the warning about the lack of protections they may expect. It is all so (purposefully) convoluted and intertwined that exactly what you get and for how much is always a moving target.

Perhaps you would not think it is convoluted or intertwined or a moving target if you read the documents or do an online chat with a VOA.
 

mstoyanov

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MOXJO7282,

The real danger for any timeshare is raising MFs - when these gets closer to the rental prices not only sale value disappear but also rental value disappear too. Rental and resale value goes hand in hand and are reciprocally related to the MFs.
Here is very simple theoretical example that can happen to badly managed resort. Investor sees timeshare that sells for $10,000 with $1000 MFs that rents for $2,000 as a good income potential (after all 10% ROI is very good in real estate) so he buys it to make business with it. But resort is badly managed and each year MFs increase with 10% (without compounding for easy calculations) and rental value stays the same. So in 10 years MFs=$2,000 and rental value=resale value=$0. In these 10 years each year investor rented timeshare with 100% success. In year 1 he got $1,000 profit, in year 2 $900 profit and so on. So in 10 years he received $5,500 as rental profit but he lost $10,000 initial investment since his timeshare now is worth $0. So in the end his return on investment was negative and he would have been better simply putting $10,000 under the mattress.

As for how probable is that scenario - for a well managed resort, not much but last 2 years we saw Starwood resorts that had 30% increase in MFs in a single year. And normally as the resorts gets older it takes more maintenance for upkeep and resorts in general gets less desirable.
Even this year when some of the same Starwood resorts MFs went down significantly resale prices still stay low - since people remember the shock they got at initial increase and will remember how quickly timeshare costs can get out of control for quite some time. In order for the prices to raise to the previous level you need people without these memories.
The same reason is why economy is not rebounding fast - people will remember last economic crisis for quite some time and will be much more careful with their spending for a while.

So far most of the Marriott resorts has been maintained relatively well with few exceptions (and I am talking about Prime seasons, there are a lot of resorts where lower seasons are already at the point where MFs are almost equal to the rental price so respectively prices for these are close to $0 on resale market). Big question is from now on will Marriott continue to be good manager or will they try to intentionally raise MFs to the point where all such resorts are almost worthless even for Platinum seasons.
Also another question is - how will lower season owners will react to the fact that they can rent for cheaper than MFs - if big group of these people dump lower season weeks this will push MFs up for everybody.

I too checked an 8415 is in deed OF. I'm kicking myself because had I known I would have bought.

Why not, Even if it goes to zero resale value, an oceanfront at that resort will always have rental value.
 

SueDonJ

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Different clubs do it differently - in fact some have both (turn over deed or not) to really confuse things. I have not, and will not, sit through a presentation regarding the Marriott DC. If you say they do not have any option of giving up your deeded ownership to them in return for a RTU or any other type of membership I will take your word for it until someone else says it isn't that way. So assuming you are corect only those that are planning to purchase "new" DC points would be needing the warning about the lack of protections they may expect. It is all so (purposefully) convoluted and intertwined that exactly what you get and for how much is always a moving target.

Again this is not just a Marriott issue but one they now fall under along with many other systems as they moved to the new type of exchange model based on points vs simple deeded weeks.

John, OldPantry is correct. Marriott didn't give anyone the option of giving up their deeded Week(s) in exchange for Destination Club Points. The way it works is, if you own direct-purchased Week(s) or external-resales that were purchased prior to 6/20/10, you can pay the fee to enroll them and become an Exchange Member in the DC. Enrollment and payment of the annual Club Dues entitles a member to elect to EITHER use his/her Week(s) as they've always been used OR elect annually to convert his/her Week(s) to the allotted DC Points for use in the DC Exchange Company. Enrollment and payment of the annual Club Dues also entitles a member to II membership and the Marriott Rewards Points conversion option (which has always been available to direct purchasers, never before to external resales.) If an Exchange Member does not pay the annual Club Dues, his/her Week(s) ownership remains the same as it always was - s/he simply forfeits the option to convert Week(s) to Points for DC Exchange Company use.

What you're talking about, the impact on deeded rights, changes in only one manner for Exchange Members who have enrolled their Week(s.) You do give up your right to vote against Marriott's interests in any matters pertaining to the DC, which some consider a significant negative while others weigh the practicality of that right against the almost-insurmountable odds of gaining a majority vote against Marriott anyway, or can't envision a reason why a member would want to vote against the interests of the DC in which they're enrolled. Plus, if an Owner chooses to not remain with the DC (by not paying Club Dues) then the right to vote against Marriott's interests in the DC is re-instated. Those are a few reasons why some folks consider this a relatively insignificant matter, there may be others. (And of course, what's important to one may not be to another.)

Every exact-match interval is assessed the same m/f regardless of whether the Owner is enrolled or not. Each resort Board determines its own budget based on need with Marriott influencing the anticipated brand standard and scheduled refurbs. Marriott is responsible for the m/f of any intervals which they hold as owner or developer, including those that they may have conveyed to the underlying DC Trust. Each individual resort budget is subject to strict audits which are stipulated in the governing docs. Marriott's 10% management fee is also stipulated in the governing docs.

Purchasing DC Points is an entirely different animal than enrolling Weeks in the DC. Folks who buy DC Points are Trust Members and their purchase is deeded. But I think you're correct in that Marriott may have more leeway to adjust annual m/f and allow fluctuation of processing fees for Trust Members than they do for Exchange Members. At least, I don't see anything in the DC governing docs that holds Marriott to the need-based stipulations that are in the Week(s) governing docs. More importantly though, the limitation on voting rights is without question significant for every Trust Member because their ownership consists solely of DC Points, and is not afforded the protections stipulated by the governing docs of the Exchange Members' underlying Week(s.)

Folks who do both - purchase Points and enroll Week(s) - can use a combination of their purchased and allotted Points in the Exchange Company according to the parameters of each. All other rights and obligations are separate and distinct.
 
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MOXJO7282

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MOXJO7282,

The real danger for any timeshare is raising MFs - when these gets closer to the rental prices not only sale value disappear but also rental value disappear too. Rental and resale value goes hand in hand and are reciprocally related to the MFs.
Here is very simple theoretical example that can happen to badly managed resort. Investor sees timeshare that sells for $10,000 with $1000 MFs that rents for $2,000 as a good income potential (after all 10% ROI is very good in real estate) so he buys it to make business with it. But resort is badly managed and each year MFs increase with 10% (without compounding for easy calculations) and rental value stays the same. So in 10 years MFs=$2,000 and rental value=resale value=$0. In these 10 years each year investor rented timeshare with 100% success. In year 1 he got $1,000 profit, in year 2 $900 profit and so on. So in 10 years he received $5,500 as rental profit but he lost $10,000 initial investment since his timeshare now is worth $0. So in the end his return on investment was negative and he would have been better simply putting $10,000 under the mattress.

As for how probable is that scenario - for a well managed resort, not much but last 2 years we saw Starwood resorts that had 30% increase in MFs in a single year. And normally as the resorts gets older it takes more maintenance for upkeep and resorts in general gets less desirable.
Even this year when some of the same Starwood resorts MFs went down significantly resale prices still stay low - since people remember the shock they got at initial increase and will remember how quickly timeshare costs can get out of control for quite some time. In order for the prices to raise to the previous level you need people without these memories.
The same reason is why economy is not rebounding fast - people will remember last economic crisis for quite some time and will be much more careful with their spending for a while.

So far most of the Marriott resorts has been maintained relatively well with few exceptions (and I am talking about Prime seasons, there are a lot of resorts where lower seasons are already at the point where MFs are almost equal to the rental price so respectively prices for these are close to $0 on resale market). Big question is from now on will Marriott continue to be good manager or will they try to intentionally raise MFs to the point where all such resorts are almost worthless even for Platinum seasons.
Also another question is - how will lower season owners will react to the fact that they can rent for cheaper than MFs - if big group of these people dump lower season weeks this will push MFs up for everybody.
This isn't my first rodeo as you can see I own 12 marriott weeks. I've been successfully renting my excess weeks for 9 plus years and while things definitely tighten up alittle in 2009 and 2010, 2011 has been a great year and I see good things in the future based on all the demand I'm seeing. It is true all the things you say are possible, not IMHO probable. I can't see how things could get worse then 2009 & 2010, in fact I say Marriott popularity will be on the upswing.

Now I'm alittle different than most owners in that I can weathr an increase in MFs easier than the next guy now that I have 12 units. In theory all I need to do is make a few dollars above my MFs and I'm happy as long as I cover my costs and pay for one one trip a year. Since I average xxxx above MF costs now, they could go up quite abit before it blows up my "program".

Example: Aruba Surf - MFs ~$1300 rents for $3k plus net is $1700. Even if MFs go up a $1000,I'm still OK.
 

icydog

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John, OldPantry is correct. Marriott didn't give anyone the option of giving up their deeded Week(s) in exchange for Destination Club Points. The way it works is, if you own direct-purchased Week(s) or external-resales that were purchased prior to 6/20/10, you can pay the fee to enroll them and become an Exchange Member in the DC. Enrollment and payment of the annual Club Dues entitles a member to elect to EITHER use his/her Week(s) as they've always been used OR elect annually to convert his/her Week(s) to the allotted DC Points for use in the DC Exchange Company. Enrollment and payment of the annual Club Dues also entitles a member to II membership and the Marriott Rewards Points conversion option (which has always been available to direct purchasers, never before to external resales.) If an Exchange Member does not pay the annual Club Dues, his/her Week(s) ownership remains the same as it always was - s/he simply forfeits the option to convert Week(s) to Points for DC Exchange Company use.

What you're talking about, the impact on deeded rights, changes in only one manner for Exchange Members who have enrolled their Week(s.) You do give up your right to vote against Marriott's interests in any matters pertaining to the DC, which some consider a significant negative while others weigh the practicality of that right against the almost-insurmountable odds of gaining a majority vote against Marriott anyway, or can't envision a reason why a member would want to vote against the interests of the DC in which they're enrolled. Plus, if an Owner chooses to not remain with the DC (by not paying Club Dues) then the right to vote against Marriott's interests in the DC is re-instated. Those are a few reasons why some folks consider this a relatively insignificant matter, there may be others. (And of course, what's important to one may not be to another.)

Every exact-match interval is assessed the same m/f regardless of whether the Owner is enrolled or not. Each resort Board determines its own budget based on need with Marriott influencing the anticipated brand standard and scheduled refurbs. Marriott is responsible for the m/f of any intervals which they hold as owner or developer, including those that they may have conveyed to the underlying DC Trust. Each individual resort budget is subject to strict audits which are stipulated in the governing docs. Marriott's 10% management fee is also stipulated in the governing docs.

Purchasing DC Points is an entirely different animal than enrolling Weeks in the DC. Folks who buy DC Points are Trust Members and their purchase is deeded. But I think you're correct in that Marriott may have more leeway to adjust annual m/f and allow fluctuation of processing fees for Trust Members than they do for Exchange Members. At least, I don't see anything in the DC governing docs that holds Marriott to the need-based stipulations that are in the Week(s) governing docs. More importantly though, the limitation on voting rights is without question significant for every Trust Member because their ownership consists solely of DC Points, and is not afforded the protections stipulated by the governing docs of the Exchange Members' underlying Week(s.)

Folks who do both - purchase Points and enroll Week(s) - can use a combination of their purchased and allotted Points in the Exchange Company according to the parameters of each. All other rights and obligations are separate and distinct.
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EXCELLENT. WHAT A GREAT SYNOPSIS. Thank you
 

Cmore

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...What you're talking about, the impact on deeded rights, changes in only one manner for Exchange Members who have enrolled their Week(s.) You do give up your right to vote against Marriott's interests in any matters pertaining to the DC, which some consider a significant negative while others weigh the practicality of that right against the almost-insurmountable odds of gaining a majority vote against Marriott anyway, or can't envision a reason why a member would want to vote against the interests of the DC in which they're enrolled. Plus, if an Owner chooses to not remain with the DC (by not paying Club Dues) then the right to vote against Marriott's interests in the DC is re-instated. Those are a few reasons why some folks consider this a relatively insignificant matter, there may be others. (And of course, what's important to one may not be to another.).....

Yes, thanks for the excellent summary.
I do have one question, as my understanding of the above paragraph is slightly different. I thought that Marriott only got control of an enrolled owners vote for a year in which they elect points - not every year they are in the club. I may be wrong, but it is a difference and allows weeks owners greater control of their "vote" without having to quit the club so to speak.

That being said, I agree mvci owners should largely support what Marriott's vision for the resort is as that is what we are paying for, I think it primarily allows the COA to have input and final control of the annual budget. So the BOD's function IMO is to not let Marriott get competely out of control on costs.

If anyone has a clarification on that point it would be worth knowing. Thx.
 

SueDonJ

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Yes, thanks for the excellent summary.
I do have one question, as my understanding of the above paragraph is slightly different. I thought that Marriott only got control of an enrolled owners vote for a year in which they elect points - not every year they are in the club. I may be wrong, but it is a difference and allows weeks owners greater control of their "vote" without having to quit the club so to speak.

That being said, I agree mvci owners should largely support what Marriott's vision for the resort is as that is what we are paying for, I think it primarily allows the COA to have input and final control of the annual budget. So the BOD's function IMO is to not let Marriott get competely out of control on costs.

If anyone has a clarification on that point it would be worth knowing. Thx.

(All the caps and bolding etc is quoted - it's not me yelling at you or emphasizing something that Marriott didn't. :) )

This is from the "MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM ENROLLMENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS" document:
1. Owner represents and warrants to MVCEC that, as an Exchange Member, Owner: ...
e. will not exercise any vote Owner may have in the owners "association" ("Resort Association") operating the resort in which Owner's Timeshare Interest is located ("Resort") in a manner that is, in MVCEC's reasonable discretion, detrimental to the Program, including, without limitation, voting to limit or terminate the Resort's participation in the Program."

"Exchange Member" is defined in the "EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATION EXCHANGE PROGRAM" document as,
"... a Member who is the owner of an Interest in an Affiliate Program which is not a trust who has voluntarily entered into an enrollment agreement with Exchange Company."

That to me says the voting stipulation exists for as long as an enrolled owner/Exchange Member remains enrolled in the DC. I don't see anything which says the voting stipulation applies only during the years in which an Exchange Member converts Weeks to DC Points.
 
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