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Marriott Maui Preview in one hr-any questions?

How have you...and would you in the future...purchase Marriott timeshare weeks?

  • I bought directly from Marriott and will do so again.

    Votes: 9 10.0%
  • I bought directly from Marriott, but will only buy resale in the future.

    Votes: 12 13.3%
  • I bought directly from Marriott, and might or might not buy directly from Marriott again.

    Votes: 23 25.6%
  • I bought resale and will only buy resale in the future.

    Votes: 24 26.7%
  • I bought resale, but will buy directly from Marriott in the future.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I bought resale, and might or might not buy directly from Marriott in the future.

    Votes: 12 13.3%
  • Regardless of how I bought, I'm not buying any more Marriott timeshares.

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • Who cares???!!!

    Votes: 6 6.7%

  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .

SueDonJ

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I tried to tell you . . . . :) If I would have told you that I also teach law school would that have made you believe earlier?

That depends. Do you also teach law school, or would you only have been telling me that you do? :D

I'm still waiting for the rebuttal, by the way. That law professor who dropped into my mailbox said, "... because Marriott has set up this system, and owners have relied on it, it is likely contractually enforceable in its exact current form for current owners."

That wasn't true, or at least Marriott assumed the risk it wouldn't be contested, when changes in the system (13/12-mo. rule, MRP allocations, etc.) were made and current owners weren't grand-fathered. There is no way that those changes resulted in the system continuing in "its exact current form" for then-current owners.

If you do teach law, can you tell us why Marriott believed the risk was worth taking? I believe it's because there are, "Marriott reserves the right to amend from time to time ..." bombshells everywhere in the paperwork.
 
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sdtugger

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That depends. Do you also teach law school, or would you only have been telling me that you do? :D

I'm still waiting for the rebuttal, by the way. That law professor who dropped into my mailbox said, "... because Marriott has set up this system, and owners have relied on it, it is likely contractually enforceable in its exact current form for current owners."

That wasn't true, or at least Marriott assumed the risk it wouldn't be contested, when changes in the system (13/12-mo. rule, MRP allocations, etc.) were made and current owners weren't grand-fathered. There is no way that those changes resulted in the system continuing in "its exact current form" for then-current owners.

If you do teach law, can you tell us why Marriott believed the risk was worth taking? I believe it's because there are, "Marriott reserves the right to amend from time to time ..." bombshells everywhere in the paperwork.

Yes, guilty as charged, I do teach law school.

I'm not totally certain that the 13/12 month rule was a "change." As I understand it, that language is contained in at least some of the contracts going way back. But, even if it weren't, my guess is that Marriott would have figured that 50% of the available units would not raise too much of a stink. But, the bottom line is that I don't think Marriott is free to change the reservation process so drastically as to basically gut the value of what was purchased.

P.S. Big companies make big mistakes all of the time. That's what keeps high priced lawyers high priced . . .
 
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m61376

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Ok- here's another take on how much of a change was the 13/12 rule? Does anyone know the percentage of Marriott owners who are multiple week owners? If that is anywhere around the 50% mark, then it would be easy to see how that change was easily justified. Since I have read reports that indicate as high as 68% of timeshare owners in general own more than one unit, it is conceivable that multiple Marriott week owners might approach or even exceed the 50% mark; does anyone know that figure?

At any extent, as pointed out above from someone who obviously has more expertise in this, since at least 50% of every week's inventory is still available to each and every owner under this rule, it would have been difficult for anyone to argue real diminished value.
 

luv2vacation

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Not all multi-week owners are able to use the 13-month rule. You have to own either multiple weeks in the same season or in 2 seasons that are 'side-by-side' or overlap (in the case of different resorts). For instance, I own 2 weeks at Marriott's Ocean Pointe but cannot utilize the 13-month rule. I own gold and platinum. Silver season falls between those two on both ends. (Gold is June through Aug., platinum is last two weeks of December through April, and silver is all of May and Sept. through first two weeks of December.)
 

m61376

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Not all multi-week owners are able to use the 13-month rule. You have to own either multiple weeks in the same season or in 2 seasons that are 'side-by-side' or overlap (in the case of different resorts). For instance, I own 2 weeks at Marriott's Ocean Pointe but cannot utilize the 13-month rule. I own gold and platinum. Silver season falls between those two on both ends. (Gold is June through Aug., platinum is last two weeks of December through April, and silver is all of May and Sept. through first two weeks of December.)

I realize that, but I was just throwing it out that if multiple week owners are in the neighborhood or 50% or more, as the industry trend might indicate, then that could easily be used to justify releasing the inventory in that manner. Just a thought- I have no idea if there is any veracity to this.
 

taffy19

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That depends. Do you also teach law school, or would you only have been telling me that you do? :D

I'm still waiting for the rebuttal, by the way. That law professor who dropped into my mailbox said, "... because Marriott has set up this system, and owners have relied on it, it is likely contractually enforceable in its exact current form for current owners."

That wasn't true, or at least Marriott assumed the risk it wouldn't be contested, when changes in the system (13/12-mo. rule, MRP allocations, etc.) were made and current owners weren't grand-fathered. There is no way that those changes resulted in the system continuing in "its exact current form" for then-current owners.

If you do teach law, can you tell us why Marriott believed the risk was worth taking? I believe it's because there are, "Marriott reserves the right to amend from time to time ..." bombshells everywhere in the paperwork.
Exactly. We lost 50% of our inventory so that made it very hard to make our reservations while it was easy before and we we were direct customers of the Marriott.

Once, it was spelled out in the documents, buyers are aware that the more weeks you own, the earlier you can reserve but that clause wasn't in our contract. They can change the rules from time to time as that is spelled out in their documents, I found out later. They have very smart lawyers.

We were upset so didn't keep it as the late February or early March dates were important to us. Anyone can sell if it no longer serves a purpose so you aren't stuck with the timeshare if the new system isn't what you like.

The more the re-sale market gets known to the general public, the more urgent it gets for the big developers to make it attractive for direct buyers but it will hurt them eventually, if the re-sale values drop too low as nobody will buy a timeshare anymore.

The next generation will all be internet savvy so will search before they buy or rescind right after the sale. It is time for a whole new system to market this industry.
 

taffy19

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DING! DING! DING! DING! - We have a winner! :clap:

I agree 100% with this speculation. :D
Me too. Marriott is clearly the winner here. They are in business to make money and it was never their intention to "punish" re-sale buyers but they have to do something to make it attractive for new buyers to buy from them directly or they will go out of business.

As long as we are all speculating, I'll through my guess into the ring.

Marriott's goal is to make money. All actions they take are to make money. Any actions they take in "Rewarding" direct purchasers are to make money.

So IF Marriott is worried about resale buyers cutting into their profits here is what I predict:

Marriott will enact a points system for internal trading. ALL current (direct and resale) owners will need to buy in if you want to use this new system (Marriott makes money). New direct purchasers will be included in the points system for free (Marriott adds value to buying from them). Trading in the points system costs money each time it is used (Marriott makes money). After the point system starts resale buyers can buy in (Marriott makes money).

In the end Marriott makes money.

Ray
Sounds fair. :) I am glad we only own one single week so it isn't going to cost us much money or any at all. We hardly ever exchange and if you start adding up all the fees and worries (frustration), you may as well rent.
 

taffy19

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Ok- here's another take on how much of a change was the 13/12 rule? Does anyone know the percentage of Marriott owners who are multiple week owners? If that is anywhere around the 50% mark, then it would be easy to see how that change was easily justified. Since I have read reports that indicate as high as 68% of timeshare owners in general own more than one unit, it is conceivable that multiple Marriott week owners might approach or even exceed the 50% mark; does anyone know that figure?

At any extent, as pointed out above from someone who obviously has more expertise in this, since at least 50% of every week's inventory is still available to each and every owner under this rule, it would have been difficult for anyone to argue real diminished value.
It made a big difference to us. In the beginning, we were able to reserve President's week twice before but after the change, it took us two or three weeks on the phone at 6 AM sharp to even get any week in late February or early March. It got so bad, that I wrote an angry letter to Mr. Marriott himself. I posted about it here on TUG and that thread was very long because other people had the same problem.

What really gets me is that some re-sale owners here on TUG reserve the very best weeks and rent them out while taking advantage of this extra lead time. Booking 13 months out is for personal use only as this is spelled out in the documents but Marriott is not watching this because it is interfering with private property rights most likely but people should know themselves that this isn't fair to other timeshare owners who are in this reservation system too and we had to sell our timeshare that we liked so much because of these selfish people. :mad:

I have a feeling that you would like Marriott to make it 75% now for the multiple week owners so this perk will stay as valuable as it presently is? Hell with the single week owners as they are poor suckers anyway. :rolleyes: I hope Marriott isn't listening to you as many people can afford one single week only but would also like to stay during these highly desired weeks every once in a while. JMHO. This was very possible before Marriott made these changes!

To get the best week possible for exchanging is perfectly OK because it is for personal use and enjoyment. :)

Winger, I just read your thread all over again. It sure started a can of worms here about all the uncertainty we are facing.

Are you enjoying yourself at the Marriott and thanks for sending your pictures. :D Here is a link where it shows you how to post them in TUG or I can post your picture with the empty swimming pool for you, if you like and your beautiful sunset too.

Will you please ask the sales person again or the sales manager what was meant by #6 in your post and how soon they are going to announce the new system and post it here.

Thanks and ALOHA!
 

m61376

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Iconnections- I think you misunderstood what I meant (or I didn't express what I meant clearly)- I wasn't saying that single week owners shouldn't have been upset or didn't have the right to be upset. I was postulating that maybe the reason Marriott was able to institute the 13/12 rule was because they were releasing half the inventory to perhaps approximately the same percentage of owners (assuming there are at least 50% multiple week owners), and they were still saving the other 50% of each available week for single week owners. I wasn't saying I thought that was a great idea or anything; I was just musing if that was their justification.

And, for what it's worth- I do agree with you that there is a lot of exploitation of the 13 month rule. I realize it was intended to ease the reservation logistics for people who wanted to enjoy two or more weeks consecutively or perhaps have a big family trip and use them contiguously. The original intent could easily be enforced by allowing only a single reservation number. Instead, as you complained about, people use it to secure the best weeks and then trade one or more of them. The problem is that since the weeks were paid for Marriott doesn't really have the right to tell people how they can use them, and human nature is such that if people can bend the rules to their own advantage they most likely will. Anyway, while I know a lot of people would disagree here, I would agree with you that it would be fairer if the 13 month advance reservation was restricted to the way it was intended to be used, which could easily be accomplished by restricting the reservations made at 13 month to a single reservation number.
 

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M61376, thank you for sending me an email that I just read. I understand better now what you meant in your post. I appreciate your explanation. :)

We loved the Marriott DSV-I resort and hated to give it up but making reservations was too much of a hassle for us but it seems to have improved as I read several times already that single week owners got it on their very first try. It may be that more than half of the owners own two weeks or more today so that would tip the scale over to the advantage of the one week owners again. I am not so sure though because there will always be more first time buyers who buy a single week to start.

I am very happy not to belong to the floating system any longer. Period. We keep using what we own or rent it out or make a direct exchange, if that is possible. Palm Desert has a lot of get-away packages so it is easy to go there for a few days as it is not far away either. The desert is exceptionally beautiful in the spring and also in the fall but the winters are cool just like in Las Vegas.
 

winger

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No way. Not in this economy.
Then you can blame the info on my rep, senior sales Brian Thompson.

I did not realize someone started a POLL for this thread ?!? Well, my schedule and my sales reps' schedule did not match up for my time at the Marriott - once I get caught up with work I will try contacting him to ask some more detailed questions about the internal trading system.

I will also browse thru this thread to see what other question I may wish to ask. PM me if you want the guys cell # and/or email so you can help asking for clarification - maybe I misheard something.

Oh, it is not so fun to be back from Maui - jet lag and work is a hurdle the older you get :( but Best news though is that we made it back to 'celebrate' the passing of our 103 years old grandma. She was a true worrier in many sense of the word.

I will catch up in a week or so...

BTW I will cast my vote
 

Carlsbadguy

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I do know that the building for the new Kauai resort is being built. I took a walk while at the Kauai Beach CLub last week to look at the Ritz fractional model. It is being built in the Kauai lagoons area- you fly right over it when landing in Lihue. Big disadvantage to me is you really don;t have close beach access.

The new Kauai property is being labeled a Grand Residence Club, so not sure if will be avaialble for trading like other Marriotts. Also was told the Oceanfront units in the building will be sold as full ownership.
 

Clemson Fan

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Then you can blame the info on my rep, senior sales Brian Thompson.

Sales reps will always always paint the most rosy picture possible.

Any project that broke ground before the economy meltdown last fall has the best shot at being completed although even those projects are at risk. There's a huge condo project in downtown Honolulu that stopped all building about 6 weeks ago and is just sitting there as a half empty concrete shell. I really hope they finish that project eventually because it will look awful if they don't.

http://www.hawaiibusiness.com/Hawaii-Business/March-2009/Arrested-Development/

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20090306/BUSINESS12/903060331/1071

http://savekauai.org/development/marriott,-starwood-stop-big-hawaii-projects

IMO, and in the opinion of a lot of contractors I know, any future planned project that hasn't been started is very likely to be shelved until this economy improves which may be awhile.
 

vacationtime1

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I do know that the building for the new Kauai resort is being built. I took a walk while at the Kauai Beach CLub last week to look at the Ritz fractional model. It is being built in the Kauai lagoons area- you fly right over it when landing in Lihue. Big disadvantage to me is you really don;t have close beach access.

The new Kauai property is being labeled a Grand Residence Club, so not sure if will be avaialble for trading like other Marriotts. Also was told the Oceanfront units in the building will be sold as full ownership.

My understanding from my visit last year is that the planned Marriott development was to include full ownership residences, Grand Residence Club units (i.e. multiple week ownership), and timeshares (Waiohai is close to selling out; Marriott had little weekly timeshare inventory on Kauai at that point). In other words, lots of choices at three price points: high, higher, and inspirational.

I suspect the overall plan is unchanged. I am certain that the original timetable will be delayed substantially.
 

pwrshift

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I see a number of posters here that do not list any Marriott ownership, and if they voted in the poll would it not make the results totally inaccurate?

Scan through the posts and the most posts are from apparent non-owners.

Brian
 

davidvel

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Yes, guilty as charged, I do teach law school.
In S.D?
I'm not totally certain that the 13/12 month rule was a "change." As I understand it, that language is contained in at least some of the contracts going way back. But, even if it weren't, my guess is that Marriott would have figured that 50% of the available units would not raise too much of a stink. But, the bottom line is that I don't think Marriott is free to change the reservation process so drastically as to basically gut the value of what was purchased.
At least as to my resort, Shadow Ridge, the reservation rules (12/13 month) are specifically set forth in the deeded documents. The rules are concise and specific. Notably, there is no distinction between an original purchaser and resale purchaser in those docs. Marriott cannot change any terms of the deed, CC&Rs and Timeshare declaration. In fact, Marriott is simply a manager for the respective HOAs which actually owes the obligations to owners. Simply put Mariott cannot change the "rules" (actually deeded usage rights) for reserving, or using your week, because they are deeded entitlements.

Under CA law, no "rule," changed or not, can supercede or contradict the declarations. In any conflict between a rule and the declarations, the declarations prevail. The Declaration sets forth in detail how reservations can be made. Either you own two weeks, or you fall under the 12 month rule.

Rights to reserve your use week.
(The following is paraphrased from the recorded Shadow Ridge Timeshare Declaration.)

"Timeshare Interest" is defined as the interest in the timeshare condominium referenced in the respective Timeshare Declaration for the resort. [paras. 1.85 and 1.87]

Reserving
Owners who own more than one "Timeshare Interest" may reserve use weeks 13 mos. in advance of (down to 75 days before) the use week reserved, only if they reserve such weeks concurrently or consecutively. [para. 2.1-d-i]

Owners other than above may reserve use weeks 12 mos in advance of (down to 75 days before) the use week reserved. [para. 2.1-d-ii]

[remaining provision relates to reserving within 75 days.]

These provisions are obviously the most material part of a timeshare owner's rights with respect to the property. I can see no conceivable way the substantive rights granted by the Timeshare Declaration could be unilaterally altered by Marriott or its affiliated companies, high priced lawyers or not.

Within any timeshare project, whether it be Marriott or others, the rules apply as they do in any condominium project governed by CC&Rs. Here, the CC&Rs state that only those owners who have 2 or more weeks can (and have a right to) reserve 13 mos. out and the Association/Marriott must follow those declarations in allowing reservations.

Importantly, "Owner" is defined as any owner of a timeshare interest deed, or any successor purchaser (RESALE PURCHASER, see para 1.61.) As such, resale buyers are entitled to the same deeded rights of an original purchaser no matter what price was paid. This is no different than neighbors in a condo complex that paid drastically different prices for their unit twenty years apart.

As to Marriott's new program...

No resale buyer has a right to be a part of any new exchange program, etc., or any particular priority.

Obviously, timeshare ownership and the legalities surrounding them are complicated. I enjoy these discussions because they relate to all the promises and lay-opinion given by the salespepople, and put all their simple, strightforward explanations in a more complex context. The more info people have, the better, which I understand the primary purpose of TUGBBS to be.

I implore everyone to keep the distinction between your rights to reserve (deeded) vs. any new points/ exchange program (which can have any rules they want and you agree to when signing up).
P.S. Big companies make big mistakes all of the time. That's what keeps high priced lawyers high priced . . .
NO CHARGE... :rolleyes:
 

thinze3

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... No resale buyer has a right to be a part of any new exchange program, etc., or any particular priority. ...

Neither do Marriott direct buyers. If Marriott goes to an internal points-based exchange program, EVERY current owner may find themselves having to buy into it. IMHO
 

RandR

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I implore everyone to keep the distinction between your rights to reserve (deeded) vs. any new points/ exchange program (which can have any rules they want and you agree to when signing up).

So if I understand this correctly, based on what you are saying, if I am a resale buyer, Marriott will always have to allow me to reserve my resort in the platinum season, 12 months out. (Or do they only have to allow me to reserve the week that is on the deed?)

But, they can put in a new internal trading system for exchanging between Marriotts and give me no rights to that.

Thanks, Ray
 

We Love Fun

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In S.D?
As to Marriott's new program...

No resale buyer has a right to be a part of any new exchange program, etc., or any particular priority.

We've talked with a Marriott salesman who says that he doesn't know what the company will do with respect to resale purchasers and the internal exchange system, but he has been told it will be within fifteen to 18 months.

If resale purchasers aren't allowed to participate in an internal exchange system, and if a large number of Marriott owners are direct purchasers who exchange internally to other Marriotts, it would seem that resale purchasers would be limited to trading amoung themselves in II or RCI if they are kept out of the internal trade program. The availability and selection for resale owners then likely would be limited.

There is another option, too. If Marriott goes to a system like the Ritz Carlton Destination Club, Marriott could limit resale purchasers only to use of their weeks at their home resort, but allow direct purchasers to participate in a Portfolio Membership that allows the owner to use points to go to other destinations. Marriott could offer resale owners the opportunity to "buy in" to the Portfolio Membership concept that is made available to direct purchasers.

We have no inside information about this and are just learning about the the Marriott TS system. Marriott does own RC, though, and a new program is now being implemented as part of the "redefinition" of the RC Destination Club. It could be that Marriott is trying out the change to "home weeks" and "portfolio points" in a smaller ownership pool before it tries to do something in MVCI. More info about the Destination Club is available at:

http://www.ritzcarltonclub.com/ritz...09/2009-04-23-Ritz-redefines-destination.html
 

davidvel

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So if I understand this correctly, based on what you are saying, if I am a resale buyer, Marriott will always have to allow me to reserve my resort in the platinum season, 12 months out. (Or do they only have to allow me to reserve the week that is on the deed?)

But, they can put in a new internal trading system for exchanging between Marriotts and give me no rights to that.

Thanks, Ray

That is my professional opinion, yes (based upon my timeshare's CC&Rs-Shadow Ridge).

If you have a floating week, you have no rights to the particular week shown on the deed; they have to let you "try" to reserve 12 months out in your season along with everyone else (no guarantee of a particular week).

If anyone wants to see the actual language, I posted the recorded docs here: http://www.veljovich.com/homeweb/index.php?page=tug
 

m61376

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Davidvel- Thanks for taking the time to post the contractual language that clarifies the question originally raised by this thread. At least for certain resorts (although I would assume that many if not all have similar language defining reservations) then the broad statement made by Winger's salesperson is clearly the active imagination of perhaps an overzealous salesperson.

And you are right in that reserving at one's home resort is different than trading. Although Marriott cannot restrict resale owners from continuing to trade in II if and when they develop an internal trading system, just as direct purchasers will still have that option (and will likely continue to avail themselves of it to trade to non-Marriott properties), you are right in saying that they can elect to restrict a future internal trading system to direct purchasers. However, I still contend that Marriott is a business and will do what is in Marriott's best interests. Keeping all current owners happy is in their best interests. Many current resale owners are also direct purchasers of one or more properties and/or are a rich consumer base for pre-construction purchases at future properties.

Excluding any current owner from any new program would not serve any useful purpose. It would only create a lot of animosity and foster ill will; it will not generate any income and may, in fact, take away potential income from any potential internal trading program, both from loss of sign up fees (if there are any) and loss of revenue from exchange fees.

However, that said, an internal trading program may very well exclude future resale purchases. The reason why I think there is a big distinction between future resale purchases and current resale owners is that current owners have already bought the property and the potential income from the sale is already lost to Marriott but restricting future resale purchasers from enjoying benefits would potentially stimulate buyers to buy directly. Like it or not, it would be a strong sales pitch as to why to buy direct and, I think, make a better argument than the ability to trade for points. I think when prices were much lower and annual MF's were considerably less, justifying a direct purchase with the expectation of trading every other year for points was easier, but I think it has become harder and harder to justify and, while I don't like it, I think it is a possible scenario.

So I am confident that reservations ability will maintain a status quo wrt direct and resale purchasers, I am fairly confident that current resale purchasers will be grandfathered and included in any new internal trading system and I do concede that future resale purchasers may very well be relegated to second class citizenship. The big deciding factor here, at least as I see it, is whether Marriott will be concerned about a potential negative impact on future buyers, who may shy away from purchasing because it will be that much harder to sell a unit if it couldn't be traded for other resorts.

Time will tell....
 

RandR

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So I am confident that reservations ability will maintain a status quo wrt direct and resale purchasers, I am fairly confident that current resale purchasers will be grandfathered and included in any new internal trading system and I do concede that future resale purchasers may very well be relegated to second class citizenship. The big deciding factor here, at least as I see it, is whether Marriott will be concerned about a potential negative impact on future buyers, who may shy away from purchasing because it will be that much harder to sell a unit if it couldn't be traded for other resorts.

If they make future resale owners into second class citizens, you will see the value of those units drop to close to zero. It will be similar to Starwood where the mandatory resorts have much more value than the voluntary. Doing that hurts all the owners since even direct buyers may want to sell their units at some point.
 

sdtugger

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In S.D?


NO CHARGE... :rolleyes:

I'd rather not get into details on this public forum, but I'll split the fee with you!:clap:

Thanks for pulling out the 12/13 month language. How long ago was that in the deed?

I hope that at least most on this board now understand the difference between deeded reservation rights and trading rights. Marriott can mess around with the trading rights if they insist. But, I think they are smart enough not to mess around with deeded reservation rights that have become the custom and practice because they know they will lose a massive class action suit if they do.
 
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