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Marriott Aruba Ocean Club Owners Being Ripped Off By Marriott - READ IF AN OWNER

SueDonJ

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For those that are interested there has been a great deal of email back and forth between myself and the following people regarding the special meeting ...

This is the last message sent:

TO AOC Board, MVCI, MI

This issue has gone on much longer than necessary. The owners have been stonewalled in their rights per the governing documents of the property they purchased. With the refusal of the Ocean Club Board, MVCI and MI to respond to my request for a special meeting, I have had no choice but to retain legal council in Aruba to go along with my legal council in the US. If the request of the owners are not completed by 5/11/09 you will be hearing from my legal representation. ...

Marksue, 5/11/09 is passed. Have you actually retained legal counsel? Have you or they taken further action?
 

ecwinch

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_________________________________________________________________
If I sold a defective product I would not have my customer pay any part of the fix. I'd pay the whole amount.
You can not use your analogy if Marksue is correct.

So if you were a roofer, and you sold a roof 10 years ago - a 20 year roof. And for 10 years that roof worked. Then it failed. And the customer comes back and says "the roof is defective" give me a new roof. "

But you point to the warranty. It says it is a 20 year roof, and if it fails you will replace the roof on a pro-rated basis.

Customer says - "No. I want a brand new roof for free." But they enjoyed the benefit of 10 years of use. And they refuse to accept a reasonable offer - one that is standard in most industries where the product has a useful life (tires, roofs, etc).

You would be the "nice guy" and cover all the costs?

If so, tell me where I can go and do business with you. I need to make it quick though because that might not be a sustainable business model.

And the description above is exactly what is happening here. Only difference is that MVCI is stepping in to fulfill the warranty - something they do not need to do, but are doing as the "nice guy". I guess they should just bite bullet and eat all of the cost. Never mind the roof has had 10 years of use.

Excellent post, I agree with every bit of it. (And I got a chuckle out of the "Blog on!" - reminds me of peace signs and bell-bottom pants. :D )

Same here - I was working more of a "Truck on" visual.
 
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Luckybee

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Again with the call for transparency, despite the fact that you have received unprecedented cooperation and communication from Marriott/MVCI/your BOD. I simply don't understand the call - especially as you want what you are not willing to give. After all, what is all this cloak and dagger stuff about supersecret official documents and not tipping your hands to Marriott about what your group is holding? Isn't that a lack of transparency on your part?

As much as I've vowed to stay off this board because quite frankly I personally find it silly to debate with someone who has no personal interest in the Ocean Club(yes ive heard the arguement that this affects all Marriott owners but quite frankly I think that many have nothing better to do)I find some comments so outrageous I just cant help myself. It isn't a matter of cloak and dagger, rather it is because of legal reasons that many things cannot be dealt with on a public forum , moreover, if you read back in this diatribe you'll find that Mark, many moons ago was criticized for tipping his hand too much on this very board. Marriott is well aware of the issues at hand, no one has to justify why the many owners feel as they do to anyone on this board. If it wasnt for the fact that this board is a good way to keep the issue out there Im sure that no owner would even bother wasting their time providing any info here. The information that many of the owners are privy to, is available to all owners. I can personally say that I am aware of a number of owners who once they had an opportunity to be , shall we say , enlightened, feel pretty strongly about the need for a vote, that is certainly the situation we found ourselves in. Matter of fact...Im not aware of any owner who once they have spoken to those who have info, came away with any confidence in the way the board is operating.
As an aside we've paid our assesment, we're not worried about our assesment, we are however worried about the manner in which our current board is operating.
 

SueDonJ

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As much as I've vowed to stay off this board because quite frankly I personally find it silly to debate with someone who has no personal interest in the Ocean Club(yes ive heard the arguement that this affects all Marriott owners but quite frankly I think that many have nothing better to do)I find some comments so outrageous I just cant help myself. It isn't a matter of cloak and dagger, rather it is because of legal reasons that many things cannot be dealt with on a public forum , moreover, if you read back in this diatribe you'll find that Mark, many moons ago was criticized for tipping his hand too much on this very board. Marriott is well aware of the issues at hand, no one has to justify why the many owners feel as they do to anyone on this board. If it wasnt for the fact that this board is a good way to keep the issue out there Im sure that no owner would even bother wasting their time providing any info here. The information that many of the owners are privy to, is available to all owners. I can personally say that I am aware of a number of owners who once they had an opportunity to be , shall we say , enlightened, feel pretty strongly about the need for a vote, that is certainly the situation we found ourselves in. Matter of fact...Im not aware of any owner who once they have spoken to those who have info, came away with any confidence in the way the board is operating.
As an aside we've paid our assesment, we're not worried about our assesment, we are however worried about the manner in which our current board is operating.

Well, all that does is beg the question, are you worried enough to make sure that whatever actions taken in defense of your position are the correct actions (according to the bylaws and contract language, I mean), or aren't you?

Here's a hypothetical. I want a new superduper fancier pool area put in somewhere on SurfWatch's property. I go to South Carolina and research the public records to compile a list of however many names it takes to satisfy the 10% requirement for a petition to the SurfWatch BOD. I send a copy of the list to the board with a letter in which I say that my request is being made "on behalf of" the owners whose names are on the list. Would you expect the BOD to accept my word as representation of that group of owners? I'm guessing you would, because that's the expectation that I'm getting from reading the responses to Marksue's failed attempt.

(I would never expect it to happen, but for purposes of this hypothetical...) Okay, the BOD accepts my request without any further inquiry or requirements, contrary to the bylaws, and establishes a date for the special meeting/vote. They put together and mail the necessary paperwork to all SurfWatch owners, so that each will be able to either attend the special meeting or submit a proxy vote for the proposal. Upon receipt, whatever majority is necessary to pass the proposal thinks, "hey, cool, a new pool, you bet I like that idea!" and votes in favor of it thereby setting in motion whatever permits and construction bids are necessary. Ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching - there go the maintenance fees skyrocketing all because I got a harebrained idea and my BOD didn't act in accordance with the bylaws.

Again, if the situation at the Aruba Ocean Club is so deteriorated that it requires actions against the BOD in accordance with the bylaws, why aren't you owners who are in support of those actions demanding that they be as correct as only qualified legal representation can determine?
 

SueDonJ

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... quite frankly I think that many have nothing better to do ...

And yes, I have nothing better to do. Vacation is in a week and I misjudged how long it would take me to complete the jobs that needed to be done before I left, and there is not enough time to begin another. This board is as good a place as any to waste time before I leave, and I'm in good company.
 

modoaruba

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So if you were a roofer, and you sold a roof 10 years ago - a 20 year roof. And for 10 years that roof worked. Then it failed. And the customer comes back and says "the roof is defective" give me a new roof. "

But you point to the warranty. It says it is a 20 year roof, and if it fails you will replace the roof on a pro-rated basis.

Customer says - "No. I want a brand new roof for free." But they enjoyed the benefit of 10 years of use. And they refuse to accept a reasonable offer - one that is standard in most industries where the product has a useful life (tires, roofs, etc).

You would be the "nice guy" and cover all the costs?

If so, tell me where I can go and do business with you. I need to make it quick though because that might not be a sustainable business model.

And the description above is exactly what is happening here. Only difference is that MVCI is stepping in to fulfill the warranty - something they do not need to do, but are doing as the "nice guy". I guess they should just bite bullet and eat all of the cost. Never mind the roof has had 10 years of use.



Same here - I was working more of a "Truck on" visual.

I have you know I have a successful business of 29 years.
One of the reasons is that if my product does not last till it's warranty date I will replace it 100%.
My loss will bring in new business 10 fold. Which it has.
My name is on the building and will not be tarnished.
 

Dean

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Show me the page where this was established, I want to put it into context. Is it one person, two or the mass? As for the 2300 its at least two years, who knows what we will be paying by 2011.
I don't know how many and I don't think you or MarkSue does either. Eric has documented the info for you. I think we can safely assume this one report represents far more people that aren't on board as you are proceeding. If it were a petition and they went to certify the names, I'd guess you'd lose at least 20-30% or more of those on that list, likely more if you ask them point blank if their in favor of a recall. I don't think it's been established that anyone can speak for the group in question, other than the BOD who are duly elected. That doesn't make those upset wrong however but it does affect the legalities involved.
 

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Luckybee,

I'm sorry that you are offended by anyone, other than the Ocean Club owners, taking an interest in this public forum- however it is a public forum and others who do see that it has an impact on them will take an interest and give an opinion. You have many people out there who have dealt with situations similar to this one in the past and can offer you great insights and help in your situation.

You claim that Marksue has top-secret information that will prove that Marriott or the board is up to something (I'm not sure what exactly) that cannot be revealed because revealing it will "show your hand". This is not a poker game we are talking about. I don't know if you have been involved in litigation before but if you do go that route then any evidence that you have, and that you may present in court, will have to be disclosed as part of the discovery process. This means that any documents will have to be released prior to a trial to the opposing law team so that they can prepare their defense. There won't be a possibility for any surprises to Marriott or to anyone else. The best use of any "evidence" would be to reveal it to Marriott/MVCI before you get into the massive expense of a law suit. It this evidence is iron clad, as you say it is, then Marriott are smart enough to settle with you now and not go through with an expensive law suit which they would be guaranteed to lose. Since no one has presented any evidence of a massive cover-up of some kind it is starting to look like a lot of bluff on Marksue's part.

I don't think anyone has given any answer as to what will happen if you do have the meeting and unseat the current board- how will this change anything that is going on with the Ocean Club? You need to figure out how these actions that you are taking will benefit you and the other owners. No one has addressed that.

JMHO- tlwmkw
 

Dean

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Do you own at the ocean club?
No, I believe I posted a couple of pages ago that my interest was in how Marriott conducted themselves as it might translate to their program as a whole and to other resorts. But why should it matter. If you want to limit discussion to only OC or OC/SC owners you might consider a yahoo group with that as a requirement. However, I have owned multiple weeks off and on at another resort in Aruba for over 10 years in one capacity or another seeing dues triple and at least 3 SA over that time with one of them due in part to embezzlement and at least one to frank mismanagement leading to law suites and ousting of the management company. I owned as many as 8 units at the time I finally converted those units to the points system. Luckily I was smart enough and/or lucky enough to be in between units for the most part for the majority of those extra costs. My SA alone the last time would have been almost $8K with another $4.5K for the regular dues.

However, I did pass up a 2 BR OS unit for $8900 a couple of years ago, does that count?
 

lovearuba

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Dean

I was just interested in understanding how deeply you could understand the issue, it matters to me. I want to hear from owners although I do enjoy reading the other comments and fondly remember when I thought highly of Marriott too.
 

SueDonJ

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I was just interested in understanding how deeply you could understand the issue, it matters to me. I want to hear from owners although I do enjoy reading the other comments and fondly remember when I thought highly of Marriott too.

I think it's a bit too convenient for you to dismiss the opinions of folks who do not own at Aruba Ocean Club by insinuating that they're not able to "deeply understand the issue," especially since you refuse to divulge information that may or may not prove that there is a reason to object to the BOD's performance.

Even if you were to "show your hand", your critics' opinions will still be dependent upon how reliable that information is. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if it's been obtained or disseminated in a fashion similar to the information that is contained in this thread, it's highly suspect. The only constants since the beginning of this thread are the lack of reasoning and moderate approach.
 

dioxide45

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They didn't sell the roof - they sold the project. The warranty from the developer ends when the Association takes over control - the BOD then has the onus of maintenance & support. They also inherit any warranty FROM THE BUILDERS - not the Developer. If the builder went out of business - very common in the world of construction companies - then the warranty goes with them unless specifically backed by a third party (as the Windows apparently were).

The argument they are trying to make is that Marriott knew the roof was bad when they sold the resort to the owners. Even though they didn't build it or warrant it. Not that it just broke down over time.

I don't know if the argument has merit or not. Though in my opinion, what they have been offered is a good offer and I would take it. I may not be happy with it, but it is better than nothing.
 

modoaruba

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phone solicitation

Just got home and someone called leaving a message that said if I want to sell or rent my unit at the OC at a profit to call a toll free number.
Anyone else get this call?
 

Dean

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Just got home and someone called leaving a message that said if I want to sell or rent my unit at the OC at a profit to call a toll free number.
Anyone else get this call?
No but it's a scam if you're not aware. You pay them $499 (pick a number) and they will sell or rent it for you for a very high price. Run away.
 

SueDonJ

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The argument they are trying to make is that Marriott knew the roof was bad when they sold the resort to the owners. Even though they didn't build it or warrant it. Not that it just broke down over time.

I don't know if the argument has merit or not. Though in my opinion, what they have been offered is a good offer and I would take it. I may not be happy with it, but it is better than nothing.

I agree, it's a good offer. But I wonder what it means as a precedent for all MVCI owners - will Marriott/MVCI be expected from this point on to cover any similar non-recoverable warranty protections, and what kind of developer price increases might be anticipated in order for Marriott/MVCI to absorb such costs? And I still don't understand what the roof issue has to do with the complaints surrounding the current BOD's performance.

Marksue has said that the roof leaked long before the decision to replace it was made, at least as far back as 1999 when he purchased. If that is the case, why weren't the owners petitioning the BOD back then to repair the roof before further damage required a full replacement? Why didn't the owners question the BOD's apparent lack of reserve collections to fund either roof repairs or replacement? Why didn't any of this come to light or bother any of the owners who were supposedly watching the building leak, until the bills came? A penny saved, in this case, didn't earn anyone anything but grief.
 

Dean

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I was just interested in understanding how deeply you could understand the issue, it matters to me. I want to hear from owners although I do enjoy reading the other comments and fondly remember when I thought highly of Marriott too.
I am very experienced in timeshares and Marriott even if I don't post on TUG much anymore. I predicted Spicebush and Swallowtail would go away when essentially everyone else was saying no way. I predicted Vail would split and part would stay Marriott when many in the know were saying it couldn't happen and couldn't legally be done.

If I read your post correctly you're really asking how emotional I am about the issue and IMO, that is exactly the opposite of what's needed here. It seems some are too emotional and have lost objectivity. Use your emotion to take this as far as you feel it needs to go but use the logic and powers available to you without emotion to get an endpoint. In this case the burden of proof is on those accusing Marriott. IMO, the proper approach IF one wants to allege wrongdoing and get money from other sources than the owners is not going to be to worry about the BOD. But rather to file legal action against the legal entity portion of Marriott that sold it, the company that Marriott took over the project from and the roofing company. That action will need to be in Aruban court from what I understand. And given you currently have one member of the BOD who's sympathetic to your cause, the sooner you proceed the better as to your chances of success it would seem to me. I'd think you could find an Aruban lawyer who's not enamored with Marriott to take this on. Otherwise the best course of action for the members as a whole is to likely take the compromise and run, if helping the members is the main issue here.
 

ecwinch

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I have you know I have a successful business of 29 years.
One of the reasons is that if my product does not last till it's warranty date I will replace it 100%.
My loss will bring in new business 10 fold. Which it has.
My name is on the building and will not be tarnished.

If you are making those statements with the conviction that you would act differently, then good for you. But it begs the question:

What is the average frequency of failure?
And what is the average retail price of that unit that is replaced?
And how much is your out of pocket for that unit?
Who is backing the warranty?

You could be a paper salesman. Think about it.
 

ecwinch

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Do you own at the ocean club?

When will you you stop asking this frickin question?

WHY DOES IT MATTER FOR THE 5TH TIME!

Quit asking everyone who provides an opinion that does not conform to yours that question.

You have chosen to have this debate on the largest timeshare owners board on the internet.

If you are going to post here, be willing to accept that not everyone will agree with you. And those that do not will respond.

Accept it.
 
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Luckybee

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Luckybee,

I'm sorry that you are offended by anyone, other than the Ocean Club owners, taking an interest in this public forum- however it is a public forum and others who do see that it has an impact on them will take an interest and give an opinion. You have many people out there who have dealt with situations similar to this one in the past and can offer you great insights and help in your situation.

You claim that Marksue has top-secret information that will prove that Marriott or the board is up to something (I'm not sure what exactly) that cannot be revealed because revealing it will "show your hand". This is not a poker game we are talking about. I don't know if you have been involved in litigation before but if you do go that route then any evidence that you have, and that you may present in court, will have to be disclosed as part of the discovery process. This means that any documents will have to be released prior to a trial to the opposing law team so that they can prepare their defense. There won't be a possibility for any surprises to Marriott or to anyone else. The best use of any "evidence" would be to reveal it to Marriott/MVCI before you get into the massive expense of a law suit. It this evidence is iron clad, as you say it is, then Marriott are smart enough to settle with you now and not go through with an expensive law suit which they would be guaranteed to lose. Since no one has presented any evidence of a massive cover-up of some kind it is starting to look like a lot of bluff on Marksue's part.

I don't think anyone has given any answer as to what will happen if you do have the meeting and unseat the current board- how will this change anything that is going on with the Ocean Club? You need to figure out how these actions that you are taking will benefit you and the other owners. No one has addressed that.

JMHO- tlwmkw

No one has to address anything here...that is my point . Perhaps you didnt read my post...I didnt say there was any hidden info...matter of fact I said Marriott was well aware of the issues . So are the owners who choose to avail themselves of the opportunity. My point was that neither Mark nor anyone else needs to provide nor justify info to anyone who has no interest in the OC. What info he does provide is up to him and the others involved in organizing the efforts.
As an fyi.. I have had a great deal of litigation experience, and am well aware of evidentiary rules ...I suspect a great deal more than most here ;)
 

lovearuba

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When will you you stop asking this frickin question?

WHY DOES IT MATTER FOR THE 5TH TIME!

Quit asking everyone who provides an opinion that does not conform to yours that question.

You have chosen to have this debate on the largest timeshare owners board on the internet.

If you are going to post here, be willing to accept that not everyone will agree with you. And those that do not will respond.

Accept it.

Why is it you can get away with swearing and insulting folks on this site? Why is it you can ask any question you see fit and take issue when anyone else asks a simple question? Why is it that you expect people that post to this site to remember every comment made in previous pages?
 

Dean

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and fondly remember when I thought highly of Marriott too.
I'm always amused at the dichotomy of timesharing. By necessity one has to be willing to turn a blind eye to the bad side to enjoy the rewards and for some of us, the savings involved. Usually you can draw the line between the sales system and the resorts and management themselves as for the good and bad but not always. It has been interesting to me and amusing at times to see people who drank the kool-aid and have become disenchanted for whatever reason. I've seen the same dynamics with some DVC members over the last year or so when there were some minor changes to the system that they just couldn't fathom. I'd say that if you had bought one of the resorts that were previously Marriott mainly for the internal Marriott trading, you would have been off the bandwagon long before now. I remember some that did so directly from Marriott only months before Marriott and the HH resorts parted companies. Then when Marriott parted from their previous approach of letting such people do an equity trade for something else, snarling and gnashing of teeth. No doubt such companies are literally the 600 # Gorilla in the room and ultimately we as owners are betting on how they perform and are truly at their mercy in many ways. IMO, the info about Beachplace may be far more negative if one is evaluating Marriott than is this issue because it speaks more to the management side than the sales/development side. While I think in that instance Marriott was more on the correct side of the issues, I was interested they were willing to play hardball as overtly as they apparently did. The Vail issue is applicable to the same principles I think as well, that of realization that they were not a pushover and that there was more in consideration than simply the best interest of a given resort and it's owners.
 

timeos2

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No wealthy benefactor here

While I think in that instance Marriott was more on the correct side of the issues, I was interested they were willing to play hardball as overtly as they apparently did. The Vail issue is applicable to the same principles I think as well, that of realization that they were not a pushover and that there was more in consideration than simply the best interest of a given resort and it's owners.

Great point. Those who somehow think Marriott (or Disney, Hilton, et al) are benevolent grandfather types looking out for their beloved grandchild owners are sadly mistaken. They couldn't care less about the buyers - they are in it as a money making corporation period.

They have guidelines - 15% return on whatever they put in. 15% profit on contractors, and more. They build it to a certain look, put their name outside and then sit back to rake in the management fees PLUS healthy profit. As long as the Associations go along and pay the going rate the name stays and the management stays. The minute a Board or resort starts to question the fees, wonders why only specific contractors can be used, why items have to be purchased from XX source only then the pressure starts. It's our way or the highway and they will walk away if things get challenged. They have no loyalty to a location/resort, no grand plans to protect owners or prop up resale prices. They simply want a way to make the preset profit with as little effort as possible through automatically inflated fees and overhead. If they don't get it say goodbye.

The buyers into those types of branded properties have to realize they are paying homage at every turn to keep the corporate beast around and happy. If they don't want to the beast will lumber down the road and start all new again. The owners are not the focus only the bottom line. Associations either kowtow or move to another management. End of story.
 

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Great point. Those who somehow think Marriott (or Disney, Hilton, et al) are benevolent grandfather types looking out for their beloved grandchild owners are sadly mistaken. They couldn't care less about the buyers - they are in it as a money making corporation period....

I agree that the developer has a profit motive. And I agree with your other points regarding very strict operational standards, even a bit of highhandedness in their approach to certain issues. But I believe it is a bit harsh to say that "they couldn't care less about the buyers". Great companies care very much about their customers. The customer is their source of existence.

I can't speak for others, but the Marriott reputation and brand is why I own MVCI (and Disney for that matter). I'm a platinum rewards member because I am a regular fixture in their hotels and resorts. Why? I get consistently good service and product at a reasonable price. I prefer them over Hilton, Starwood and the others because they set higher standards and strictly enforce them.
 
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