Marriott Aruba Ocean Club Owners Being Ripped Off By Marriott - READ IF AN OWNER

[m61376]

If you play hard ball and decide to institute a class action suit, aren't you running the risk of creating a legal quagmire that just drags on while the property lies fallow? Given its location, it is unlikely for Marriott to walk away from the Ocean Club (since it lies between the Stellaris Hotel and the Surf Club), which is to your benefit, but aren't you worried that the much needed repairs and renovations just won't be done? Weather will wreck further havoc with the buildings and they will continue to deteriorate, to say nothing of the refurbishment of the interiors.

I don't own there, so I guess it is none of my business, but I would think that a class action suit would be shooting yourself in the foot, so to speak, because once you go down that road things will drag on for years.

Besides wanting Marriott to pay for more of the repairs (the roof and exterior work, etc.) what is it that the owners you contacted really want? Are people willing to hold off on the refurbishment, do they want less of a renovation, etc.? Since you are contacting a large percentage of owners, I would think that it would be in everyone's best interests to voice concrete and reasonable requests rather than threatening lawsuits. I just think that will be an expensive and long, drawn out process and, even if you ultimately win some concessions, the property and the reputation will be so adversely affected that you may not consider it a "win" in the long run.

 

[Glenn Saunders]

Funny..

Today I spent the better part of the afternoon reading through this thread and I actually have really enjoyed the commentary as it is obvious that there are only one or two persons who dominate the posts and seem to have a lot of internal anger. Perhpas they should see the movie Anger Management - it's equally as funny as reading through the 300+ posts. I was led to this site via Aruba.com as although I do not own timeshare in Aruba, I do own a house and spend about six months a year on the island. Over the years I have made many friends there, both from Aruba and elsewhere. It seems to me that the primary driver behind these comments is the rising cost of owning on an island - I hate to burst anyone's bubble but Aruba is surrounded by water and it is not a cheap place to live. I'll tell you from my own experience that over the past six years I have lived on an off in Aruba my expenses have doubled or tripled. Maybe timeshare is a less expensive approach than owning property there but costs have gone up all over and it is evident just by paying utility bills, dining out, etc. that costs there have increased dramatically. I used to be on a homeowners board as well (nver will live through that kind of nightmare again) and it is a thankless job. Just one question form an outsider point of view - if the Ocean Club (which incidentally is right down the street from me and I'll be there in a few minutes to watch the Dallas game at Champion's) has so much problems, as one angry person on this thread seems to keep making, then maybe someone should question the leadership of this Allan fellow since it seems he was the one in charge for so long. Go ahead now Mark and give me your best shot like you did with others; honestly, it doesn't bother me since I have my house and life is to precious to have so much inner anger. Good luck with your so-called quest for justice! I'll hand it to you though - you made my afternoon enjoyable just by reading your posts.

 

[Luckybee]

Besides wanting Marriott to pay for more of the repairs (the roof and exterior work, etc.) what is it that the owners you contacted really want? Are people willing to hold off on the refurbishment, do they want less of a renovation, etc.? Since you are contacting a large percentage of owners, I would think that it would be in everyone's best interests to voice concrete and reasonable requests rather than threatening lawsuits. I just think that will be an expensive and long, drawn out process and, even if you ultimately win some concessions, the property and the reputation will be so adversely affected that you may not consider it a "win" in the long run.

Unlike Mark dh and I along with a few other owners who I have spoken with are concerned less with the reno cost(this time) and more with the pattern we have seen develop re: the lack of transparency. Dont misunderstand, Im not suggesting that we shouldnt try to recoup many of the costs referred to by Mark, we should, but, my true genuine concern is what happens the next time, and what else is Marriott going to dictate to the board.

I do not want to have to worry always about who is minding the store. Quite frankly I have better things to do then worry about my few timeshare weeks. In order to get back to that we need a board who is responsible and receptive to the owners. If it takes holding off on the renovations, or even Marriott walking away to get that then so be it. IMHO this would have never happened had Marriott allowed the proper communication, and disclosed that which should have been disclosed.

I very much agree with Mark that a class action is the last thing anyone wants here but what is the alternative . Should the owners simply roll over (or put a different way...be steamrolled by both Marriott and a board which seems comprised of those beholden to Marriott). Marriott could satisfy many owners by providing information, the president could satisfy many owners by answering questions, there are negotiations that could be had but all are being refused.

It seems to me that there are a few here, (thankfully not the majority of owners who seem concerned) who simply would ante up, pay whatever is asked, not really care and frankly bury heads in the sand. Fortunately Mark and others have taken the bull by the horns and are doing something. Change wont happen unless someone steps up and where it goes from here may be more in Marriotts hands than anyone who is organizing anything

 

[Luckybee]

Today I spent the better part of the afternoon reading through this thread and I actually have really enjoyed the commentary as it is obvious that there are only one or two persons who dominate the posts and seem to have a lot of internal anger. Perhpas they should see the movie Anger Management - it's equally as funny as reading through the 300+ posts. I was led to this site via Aruba.com as although I do not own timeshare in Aruba, I do own a house and spend about six months a year on the island. Over the years I have made many friends there, both from Aruba and elsewhere. It seems to me that the primary driver behind these comments is the rising cost of owning on an island - I hate to burst anyone's bubble but Aruba is surrounded by water and it is not a cheap place to live. I'll tell you from my own experience that over the past six years I have lived on an off in Aruba my expenses have doubled or tripled. Maybe timeshare is a less expensive approach than owning property there but costs have gone up all over and it is evident just by paying utility bills, dining out, etc. that costs there have increased dramatically. I used to be on a homeowners board as well (nver will live through that kind of nightmare again) and it is a thankless job. Just one question form an outsider point of view - if the Ocean Club (which incidentally is right down the street from me and I'll be there in a few minutes to watch the Dallas game at Champion's) has so much problems, as one angry person on this thread seems to keep making, then maybe someone should question the leadership of this Allan fellow since it seems he was the one in charge for so long. Go ahead now Mark and give me your best shot like you did with others; honestly, it doesn't bother me since I have my house and life is to precious to have so much inner anger. Good luck with your so-called quest for justice! I'll hand it to you though - you made my afternoon enjoyable just by reading your posts.

Im sorry I dont quite understand. You seem not to understand that it isnt just about money spent or being spent.

Let me put this another way, you own your own home as do I, we also own another property which has a board. If you had condo instead of a single family home, and some on your condo bd after speaking with the original developer decided they were going to spend alot of money, increase your fees dramatically, change the makeup of the board by effectively silencing anyone on the bd who didnt go along with the developer, refuse to communicate any longer with owners, refuse to provide explanations to the owners, stop trying to access info from the developer and in essense look like a board who is representing the devloper not the owners, would you not be a little worried. If this was my condo I'd be looking to get out fast because that would be a recipe for eventual disaster.

In all the real estate dealings I have had over the years(and there have been many) Ive never seen anything quite like the lack of transparency and accountability going on here where there wasnt something else going on. What that something else is remains to be seen.

 

[qlaval]

[Message deleted. Please follow the "Be Courteous" Posting Rule or do not post. Dave M, BBS Moderator]

 

[Glenn Saunders]

Funny..

Okay, you are right; I probably was too sarcastic. On a lot of these posts, which seem to be dominated by only a few people, money does seem to be one of the major issues. I agree that the increase itself is a lot but my point is that as an owner of property in Aruba my costs don there have doubled in the last year. I'm not happy about it but sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles on an island where there are no natural resources and everything is imported. If you don't mind me giving my opinion on one other point that you brought up is that just by reading all the posts, how can someone like myself relate to the fact you state there is no transparency? I have been on our local highrise condo Board and we never wrote such lengthy letters as some people have copied from your Board and posted them on the site. To me it seems pretty detailed why the fees are increasing. Anyway, good luck again - just please don't ruin the property for all of us who go there to visit and spend our money at Champion's and in the stores. If I would be mad about something then perhpas you should talk to the sales people who probably told you it never rains in Aruba - that's all it did last night and looks fairly gloomy this morning as well.

 

[Steve A]

Lots of the costs related to the MOC are controlled by external factors (cost of fuel,) the Arubian government (wages, electricity,) and happenstance (hurricanes.) There is little that the Board or Marriott can do to control these factors. Plus, the Ocean Club is getting tired. Upgrades are needed. We were prepared for that several again although the costs have gone up, but what hasn't?

BTW, do you think that Marriott knew that the roof was faulty and lied to the owners about it when the HOA took over?

 

[Steve A]

We were prepared for that several again although the costs have gone up, but what hasn't?

Should read:

We were prepared for this several years ago although the costs have gone up, but what hasn't?

 

[marksue]

Yes, I and many believe Marriott knew about the roof issues when they turned it over to the board. THe building was leaking from inception, there was a great deal of repair work being done from inception, they were paying for the repairs until they turned it over. If they were not aware of it they had to be blind.

Everyone else, once they satyed there, knew the roof was a problem, why didnt they? They had to know, but of course they would never admit it.

 

[marksue]

Glen -

If you bought your house and it leaked from day 1 you would expect the builder to fix it. The OCean club has leaked from day 1 was not waterproffed and there has been a great deal of damage over the years. We just want the builder to take responsibility for the repairs and reimburse the owners for previous outlays due to the defective building

 

[Sunbum]

[Message deleted. Please follow the "Be Courteous" Posting Rule or do not post. Dave M, BBS Moderator]

Folks, you are keeping Dave M. very busy editing your "not so nice" comments. Everyone is free to post their opinion and should be able to do so without getting slammed.

Play NICE

 

[Dave M]

That's correct, Sunbum.

Those whose posts have been edited and deleted - primarily those who are most vocal here about the problems at the resort - should take notice that this thread is very close to being closed, meaning that the topic would be off limits on TUG. If you wish to keep spreading the word on this forum, please follow the "Be Courteous" rule. Among other things, that includes showing courtesy and tolerance to those who have differing opinions.

I have issued a previous warning in this thread. This is the last warning.

 

[Luckybee]

Okay, you are right; I probably was too sarcastic. On a lot of these posts, which seem to be dominated by only a few people, money does seem to be one of the major issues. I agree that the increase itself is a lot but my point is that as an owner of property in Aruba my costs don there have doubled in the last year. I'm not happy about it but sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles on an island where there are no natural resources and everything is imported. If you don't mind me giving my opinion on one other point that you brought up is that just by reading all the posts, how can someone like myself relate to the fact you state there is no transparency? I have been on our local highrise condo Board and we never wrote such lengthy letters as some people have copied from your Board and posted them on the site. To me it seems pretty detailed why the fees are increasing. Anyway, good luck again - just please don't ruin the property for all of us who go there to visit and spend our money at Champion's and in the stores. If I would be mad about something then perhpas you should talk to the sales people who probably told you it never rains in Aruba - that's all it did last night and looks fairly gloomy this morning as well.

Let me explain my position to you. Mark and others are more than capable of speaking for themselves. I dont speak for anyone but dh and I but I do think that there are a few owners who might agree with us.

For the past while we were made aware of a "special assesment" by the previous board president. Prior to that he had specifically sent out info about what renovations were wanted by the owners and asked for input from the owners. Everyone had an opportunity to be heard. Keep in mind this was a president that Marriott seemingly thought was wonderful. During this process he became aware of certain "issues" which he and the board became aware of which dealt with the condition of the roof when the property was taken over by Marriott, the problems with the window warranty, etc etc etc. He started asking questions, and requesting info. It was then and only then that all of a sudden the following happened :

1. He was removed as president and became persona non grata
2. The new president failed to show at the meeting to deal with these issues
3. Those who were present from the board refused or ignored most questions asked or even worse in many cases deferred to the B member"marriott rep" to answer who of course provided no info
4. All info on minutes etc which acc'd to the bylaws must be avail were removed from the owners website
5. All email addresses for bd members were removed from the website
6. Owners were now , suddenly told after all these years that bd members will no longer answer questions only the gen'l mgr would, but he from all acc'ts is not fully informed and always has"to get back to you". I am aware from friends who just returned that he is now saying to anyone who asks about the renovations that he "cant answer any questions because he isnt told about the dealings of th board"
7.It would be a simple matter for Marriott to provide the reports re: the roof, etc. that they do have in there possession , they refuse to do so
8. Prior to the removal of the president, a lawsuit had been threatended by the board and the drafts etc. were also removed...obviously the board wasnt exactly content with Marriott either until they got to tinkering
9 The material set out by Frank does not tell us what Marriott "knew" re the roof condition, the fact that the building wasnt "new" as sold to the owners, why they didnt deal with the window issue before warranty expiry etc. It only recites the same old ...which is not what the owners are asking about
10. While the owners were told about the special assesment no one was told about the dramatic increase in maintencance fees, which is higher than the prescribed limit in the bylaws which were obviously changed but the board couldn't/didnt tell the owners about
10. Suddenly a lockdown on info occured as to what the board were "allowed" to tell the owners(I will not elaborate on that at this point)

I could go on and on but I wont for a number of reasons right now. Suffice to say that imho there is something untoward going on or I wouldnt be taking this position. Financially dh and I are in a recession proof profession so if it were just the costs involved I wouldnt be concerned although many others would be. For me it is all about making sure we as owners are provided with a board who are representing the interests of the owners not just the interest of Marriott which seems on the surface to be what is happening. If my assesment is wrong, let's just say that nothing the board has done/is doing nothing to alleviate that concern.

Moreover and pls dont take this the wrong way but as much as it is great that you enjoy Champions and the stores that isnt my biggest concern at this point.

 

[Dave M]

Nice summary, Luckybee. As for your #8....

8. Prior to the removal of the president, a lawsuit had been threatended by the board and the drafts etc. were also removed...

...some of that info is still readily available. See this link, for example, to see the Board's resolution threatening to sue Marriott.

 

[marksue]

Dave,

I do beleive what you are refering to is the post by the AOC board denying there are owners who are suing Marriott. It is a fact, see post 66 here, that the board did threaten to sue Marriott for many of the reasons I have stated here.

The issues have not gone away, yet the board is telling us they have a good relationship with Marriott. I question why such a sudden change of heart. What is the coincidence that Allan who fought for the owners and owners rights, is gone and all of a sudden their is a good relationship with Marriott?

The board is saying to talk to Corey regarding issues with fees and the assessment and the refurbishment. Yet people who are in Aruba are getting a response from Corey that he has no information.

There is a complete blackout of data for the owners. I can show you emails from people in Aruba, and I will not post them here, where there has been minimal response from the GM, the board, and MVCI customer support.

So if anyone wants to know why many of us are angry there it is. There is no transparency to events around property we own, paid for and continue to pay for.

For those that are not owners, I have no problem with your posts, what I ask is put yourself in the shoes of an owner, who is being hit with a 35 - 40% increase in fees, plus an assessment, and not a word from the board, except for what Marriott is telling them to say, before you tell us why we shouldn’t take on this fight. This is not about the money; it is about Marriott taking ownership of their responsibility for selling a defective building. I have been saying that since day 1. The fact we the owners have had to pay for all the damage is the reason for the assessment and higher reserve fees.

Allan was not a Marriott mouth piece, he was willing to fight, and he made headway over the years.

 

[Dave M]

No, I'm referring to exactly what I said, the Resolution of the Board which stated among other things,

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that in the event the Marriott Affiliated Parties fail to finally resolve the issues as provided for in the preceding paragraph of this resolution, it shall be proposed in the meeting of the Board on January 28, 2008, to authorize and consent to the engagement of the law firms of Aruba attorneys David G. Kock and Antonio A.D.A. Carlo with the authorization and instruction to immediately initiate legal actions in the name and for the account of the Coop, be it in summary or ordinary proceedings, as the case may be, against one or all of the Marriott Affiliated Parties before the Aruba First Instance Court to obtain a final judicial resolution with respect to the issues contained in this resolution or any issue the aforementioned attorneys deem necessary and pertinent....

The complete resolution is at that link as well as earlier in this thread. My point was that, although much has been deleted from the website, there are available sources for most of the key info that was deleted..

 

[marksue]

So the question is, since the issue is not resolved, there is still negotiations going on, why has the board changed direction. Something doesnt smell right and the continued silence reinforces that belief.

 

[Steve A]

From the Surf Club newsletter:

This year we prudently managed the Association finances while facing the tough financial environment. The number one goal when planning the budget is to manage the bottom line and keep increases to a minimum. This has always been an ongoing challenge in Aruba. In 2008 keeping costs
in line with budget, whilst still maintaining the integrity of the vacation experience, has become a major concern of the Management Team especially due to the spike in the price of oil and the affect this has on many facets of our business. According to the Centrale Bank of Aruba (http://www.cbaruba.org/cba/readBlob.do?id=1222), “in July 2008, the consumer price index increased by 10.2% compared to the corresponding month in 2007”. This is significantly higher than the United States and is having a far-reaching impact in all facets of our business.
Our latest forecast projects the 2008 Operating Budget to be 8.4% over budget or $2,083,155.00 or $90.17 per unit week and 77% or $1,604,714.00 is directly related to the local utility company charges.
This past July, the Aruban government enacted a 3.1% increase to the minimum wage. Labor cost for all departments has increased due to the unexpected and unbudgeted 3.1% increase in the minimum wage. This increase, coupled with the current shortage of labor on the island, has double the negative impact on the labor market.

 

[marksue]

Steve,

I got the same email from the surf club. THey like the OCean club state the infaltion rate as of July when the annualized interest rate as of September was 9.1. Even though the surf club was up 12%, which is high, I understand the additional costs. The Ocean club was increased 35 - 40% due to the costs owners have had to lay out to continually pay to fix up all the leaks in the Ocean CLub.

I did get a copy of the 2009 budget for the Ocean and surf clubs, and compared the two. There are many items that did not make sense as to why the Ocena club costs were higher than the surf club. I will post those shortly.

 

[lovearuba]

marksue

Thanks for keeping this thread going.

 

[marksue]

MVCI is now ignoring all calls from Ocean Club owners. I was told by MVCI all calls regarding the OCean Club must go through Corey, the GM. THe thing is Corey needs to go to the board for answers, yet the board does not supply answers.

It seems like thier is a complete lock down of communications from Marriott, to the GM, to the Board. SO if you want to know why we want a special meeting of the board to change our by-laws for more transparency this is the reason. Owners in Aruba now are not getting any answers.

 

[Dave M]

So, if the Board is stonewalling owners as you say, why would you believe that there would be any chance at all that the Board would vote to send a possible change to the by-laws to the owners for a vote? I'm very confused as to what makes you believe the Board is on your side, something you'll need if you hope to get them to pass such an unusual (for a timeshare HOA) resolution. A small group (e.g., 10-20%) of owners has no power to force them to do that.

 

[marksue]

The by-laws state that if you get 10% of the owners to call a special meeting then a meeting must be held. THat is how owners can recall board members thus allowing us to vote on new members and change the bylaws. I have posted previously the section from the governing document that covers recalling of board members.

 

[Dave M]

Yes, I understand that 10% of owners can call a special meeting. That's not what I asked. Could you please respond to my question about changing the bylaws? Your link about recalling directors has no teeth for forcing the Board to recommend a change to the bylaws, As owners, you don't have that power.


That 10% would not be able to vote any Board members out or force the Board to take any action that it deems unwise. The HOA, already knowing from this thread what you plan, would simply announce, as it is required to do, to all owners that a special meeting was to be held and would include an election ballot with the announcemnt. The overwhelming majority of owners, who have no knowledge of this thread, would have no reason to vote for other than the HOA candidates. "Those voting at the meeting" include those in absentia who vote by proxy.

 

[Dave M]

I'm not trying to derail your concerns, Mark. But if you expect to have success, you need a plan that fits within the governing documents and that has a reasonable chance. Since you have advertised to the HOA and to Marriott what you plan to do, it's easy for them to be well prepared and to use the same rules that you hope to rely on to make you go away. They have some of the best legal advice available anywhere. It seems clear you haven't yet paid for that type of advice, something you'll absolutely have to do if you expect success.

What I'm trying to do is to get you to think things out rationally rather than emotionally, as it appears you have so far, and come up with a plan that fits with those governing documents.

So I repeat, how do you as a small group of owners, expect to force the Board to do something (such as recommend to owners that the bylaws be changed) that they don't want to do?