Marriott Abound

[timsi]

I just don't understand the rabid distrust of Marriott. I suppose I understand disliking Marriott - I probably would dislike Vistana if it had been Vistana absorbing Marriott and not the other way around. But distrust? Why? What warrants it?

You asked, I answer. Trust is earned. It would be naïve to believe that the developer wants to keep the lion’s share when it comes to things we can see, but when it comes to things we cannot see, like the entire inventory, the developer becomes suddenly a beacon of fairness. I will give just few examples.

Rock bottom resale market? Great for Marriott because they can acquire a lot of cheap inventory, bad for the owners that must sell, they lose more money than they should. This is by design, not by accident and many rules are in place to make sure this will stay this way (stripping resale units of certain features, ROFR etc). This is also bad for owners because it means fewer new resorts, it is a lot more expensive to build than getting inventory for free.

Do you want to book a good week for your vacations or maybe to rent? So does Marriott, and their rental income has grown very nicely over the years. It may be because they have more inventory or because they have the ability to book more high demand weeks. Nobody knows the answer and we are supposed to trust them blindly but clearly the fox is guarding the hen house when it comes to inventory.

The owners pay the maintenance fees, but do they benefit equally with the developer? Marriott rents a lot of units, and their guests typically get daily cleaning. I did not see in any budget that the developer pays more to compensate for the additional housekeeping costs.

If I am not mistaken, Vistana can rent the available nights at 0-60 days, and I am not aware of any compensation for the MF the owners pay for that inventory.

Some people are behind the maintenance fees and the owners have to bear the “bad debt”. After a certain period of time the developer gets those deeds for free. Maybe you would want to be able to buy certain units at very attractive prices if they become available… Not possible, their gain, your loss.

The higher the resort maintenance fees the more management fees for Marriott.

They restructured the Vistana customer service, savings for Marriott, big loss for the for owners. This lasted many months and even today it is not completely where it was before Marriott.

Poor availability in VSN at certain resorts at 8 months for January and February 2023? Very odd what is happening in VSN right now I would be curious to know how this relates to Abound when the new program has not even started yet.

You want to use VSN even after the integration? Well, you can, but Marriott does not make money with that exchange (no skim) so let’s give Abound more attractive features.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

The problem is VSN weeks were sold as home weeks with home week priority with SO trading at 8 months. This together with mandatory grandfathering for SO resale was sold as a system and is baked into the CC&Rs (and resale value) of the Maui and WKV properties.

If Vistana could have changed rules they would have long ago. But they cannot. So Abound is how they are skirting the rules by strangling the system that many have bought in good faith and expectation.

MVC never had a system with points prior to DP. By adding Abound they are messing with the SO system and deed availability people bought. The slippery slope started with Flex at 12 months, however the impact was small, the weeks owned, and no oceanfront included. There are many IV and OV at these resorts so the impact on availability was not noticed.

What is different with Abound is there are a limited number of OFs. WKORV has 12 centerfronts and 24 deluxe per week. Take only two CF out of the system per week and 4 deluxe and you've lost 17% of available inventory per week!

Take just 4 CF and 8 Dlx weeks during July 4th or Pres week for Abound and Mariott owned weeks to rent and deeded owners lose more than 33% or one third of available inventory for that popular week.

And let's not forget that you have 50 (1-50) weeks of deeded owners already competing for 2 event weeks (Pres week, July 4th) or about 16 - 24 prime whale and summer weeks without MVC messing with system availability with Abound.

Bottom line: You can perhaps trust when there is a lot of inventory. But in the case of OFs there is little room for error or self dealing to cause significant damage to available owner inventory.

With deeded owners paying close to $3000/week, you can expect anger when their desired, legally deeded week is unavailable because MVC is monkeying with the system.

Note: number of OF units were corrected from original post.

 

[DavidnRobin]

To long to quote - but I disagree that WKORV/N is equivalent to MOC, and location. But I am biased by my favorite activity while there (laying on beach outside and snorkeling the reef).

N=12 OFC
N=24 OFD

I am not aware of the DC points available for our OFD (and don’t care), but no way I am paying more money to convert something that I plan to use annually and not exchange anyway.

The OF owners alone could unite when denied reasonable usage based on years of data, and current denials of usage.
This would open them to a transparent look based on 50*36 = 1800 weeks. That is a small data set that can easily be evaluated for usage, and is not confounded by Flex usage as the other view locations.

Heck, add in WKORVN (n=158*50 iirc).

@dioxide45 correctly put forward who would take this on? I think there are enough OFD and OFC Owners here (including lurkers) that it could be pushed into an official inquiry to the HOA. Not unlike what happened at WSJ-VGV.
(see part 1 of WSJ thread)

OFD and OFC are old school VOIs - week intervals with only Sat and Sun checkins available during 12-8 months (HomeResort period). A simple look really. And not complicated by Flex.

But maybe that is just me…


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[CalGalTraveler]

@DavidnRobin Thanks for the n. I forgot there were 2 wings. I updated my note.

As you may surmise, this update doesnt change the fact that minor errors or self-dealing by MVC for popular weeks can have a big impact on owner home week availability for OF. More importantly, why should MVC alone be the arbiter of such decisions?

@dioxide45 FYI, there is precedent of owners of high value properties fighting and winning. The former Interwest, now Embarc successfully fended off integrating their system with Diamond after they indicated they wanted to merge Embarc with their Club points trust.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I am also not convinced that II exchange deposits are always 1:1 as some have indicated. Some companies perform bulk drops and substitute lower demand resorts and weeks into those exchanges keeping the higher value resorts and weeks for themselves. I believe Disney does this since the same 2 lower-end resorts are the only ones that show up on searches.

 

[alexadeparis]

This is how home priority is supposed to work. First owners, then exchangers.

On a one for one basis. You own ONE unit, you get ONE unit. I own one, I get one. If I take mine into any exchange pool, it’s the SAME as if I reserved my home week, or rented it, or raffled it off for charity, as far as YOUR reservation is concerned. That’s because MY reservation and what I do with it, or not, doesn’t affect your reservation EITHER way. Availability is not adversely affected when a reservation is made, because instead of 5,000 owners competing for 5,000 weeks there would be 4,999 owners competing for 4,999 weeks when one reservation is off the table. Why is this so difficult to follow? Or are you being deliberately obtuse to continue this interpretation for the sake of argument only?

 

[alexadeparis]

When you book in VSN you transfer ownership rights to VSN (just as in Abound) but without breaking the home priority rule.

Sorry but this is not true, to book a VSN reservation you give up your home priority once any portion of the unit is used as staroptions. I really don’t think you understand the home priority rule. The home priority rule is that you have a right to reserve a unit at the 12 to 8 month mark. The disconnect you are having is that Abound moves a home priority reservation to Abound if a Vistana owner elects Abound points instead. If your logic is that the action of moving my reservation to Abound some how diminishes your chances to reserve your own unit, that’s not the case. If you are trying to argue that in theory me swapping my home reservation to staroptions somehow leaves an extra unit that is available for YOU to choose from and book, that is not how it works, the unit has to be made available for staroptions, because 4999 owners can only book 4999 units according to the rules, not 5,000.

 

[rcv82]

To long to quote - but I disagree that WKORV/N is equivalent to MOC, and location. But I am biased by my favorite activity while there (laying on beach outside and snorkeling the reef).

N=12 OFC
N=24 OFD

I am not aware of the DC points available for our OFD (and don’t care), but no way I am paying more money to convert something that I plan to use annually and not exchange anyway.

The OF owners alone could unite when denied reasonable usage based on years of data, and current denials of usage.
This would open them to a transparent look based on 50*36 = 1800 weeks. That is a small data set that can easily be evaluated for usage, and is not confounded by Flex usage as the other view locations.

Heck, add in WKORVN (n=158*50 iirc).

@dioxide45 correctly put forward who would take this on? I think there are enough OFD and OFC Owners here (including lurkers) that it could be pushed into an official inquiry to the HOA. Not unlike what happened at WSJ-VGV.
(see part 1 of WSJ thread)

OFD and OFC are old school VOIs - week intervals with only Sat and Sun checkins available during 12-8 months (HomeResort period). A simple look really. And not complicated by Flex.

But maybe that is just me…


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For Presidents’ Day week, when the website is working, all of the oceanfront WKORV units can be gone in literally 1 second at midnight ET a year out. And even then you may come up short. It is unfair competition for the weeks if Marriott scoops any of those out ahead of time because there is a well established history of full owner booking of available inventory. So I think there is potentially a case here if they do that. Many of the other prime weeks book out just about as fast. Since there has to be at least as many oceanfront weeks throughout the year as there are owners, for every owner that deposits to Abound points, there will be an open week somewhere during the year not booked by an owner. If they at least waited a day to allow owners wanting to book their unit a year to get first crack before taking a deposited week for Abound, it would be a little more fair. Waiting until 8 months like VSN would be the best. (Alternatively, I’m sure the have history for which weeks do not book out quickly. If those were the weeks used by the Abound deposits that would be fine too.)


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[pchung6]

The problem is we already don’t see WKORV/N and Nanea inventory available at 8 months at VSN. It wasn’t the case before. something always available at 8 months, although it might be gone in 23 seconds, still something available at 8 months. Now, nothing is available.

 

[tamu_bu]

I guess after reading the back and forth, I'll take the wait and see approach. Not gonna sweat the what ifs.

But that said, my concern is systematic. I can not in any way imagine how adding more complexity to an already complex set of rules is going to be implemented and roll out smoothly through Marriott's archaic systems. They've already proven an inability to mishandle the existing Vistana reservation system and to ignore the struggles.

Based on the programming involved, the new trading rules have to have been defined to the N'th degree for weeks is not months if they expect a fully tested and mostly flawless roll out by July or even July 84th. But they have rightfully earned a healthy level of systems distrust based on their poor handling of Vistana systems.

 

[timsi]

I really don’t think you understand the home priority rule. The home priority rule is that you have a right to reserve a unit at the 12 to 8 month mark. The disconnect you are having is that Abound moves a home priority reservation to Abound if a Vistana owner elects Abound points instead.

I do not think you understand. According to the resort rules :

"Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home
Resort have the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type
at their Home Resort"
It clearly mentions you have to own those VOI, not to get them through some novel and contorted transfer of rights through an exchange (like Abound, VSN or any other).

If you own Sheraton Flex you have fractions of 8 Sheraton resorts so you do not have any VOI in WKORVN but somehow you will have access to that resort at 12 months? How come you do not infringe the rights of the actual home owners to enjoy an exclusive 4 month period to book/cancel as many times as they want before others have any access? To me Marriott would attack with a bazooka the concept of home resort ownership, it would not be subtle at all.

 

[Eric B]

Clearly, reasonable minds can disagree on these things. It's not clear to me that anyone indicated that Sheraton Flex owners can access WKORVN at 12 months either. I believe there is some ownership in WKORVN in the Westin Flex, though I don't follow that as I'm not a Westin Flex owner and don't have any personal interest in that product, so I believe they would have access at 12 months. In my opinion, reasonable interpretations of the VSN and resort rules exist that would allow Marriott to implement a non-infringing additional external exchange program that would have access to at least some resorts after the 12-month point, but that's just my opinion and I take into account that they have the power to modify at least some of the rules to accomplish it. Maybe there are some resorts for which the rules would restrict that access to after the 8-month point - I haven't read any, though. I could be wrong, of course and it would benefit me if the other interpretation wins the day - it does match to a great extent things the sales force says but I've always taken those statements with a large grain of salt. At this point it's probably not worth getting worked up about (at least for me) - I'll be happy to join in on raising a stink if and when there is something that happens that I believe infringes the rights of ownership I have.

 

[timsi]

It's not clear to me that anyone indicated that Sheraton Flex owners can access WKORVN at 12 months either.

If any VKORVN unit is available at 12 months in Abound, all Abound members will have access regardless of their underlying ownership. Sheraton Flex was just an example.

 

[sharr7]

I don't get how in the context of this discussion, Abound isn't just a different version of Interval International. Trades at 8-24 months into interval being available immediately to other non-owners do not infringe on Home Priority Period rights, correct?

 

[Eric B]

If any VKORVN unit is available at 12 months in Abound, all Abound members will have access regardless of their underlying ownership. Sheraton Flex was just an example.

You'd best sue them now, then. I was able to book a week at Lagunamar in the 8-12 month period using a week from Mountainside Villas at Massanutten through Interval International - a different exchange system than Abound. I wish you the best of luck in that litigation and recommend trying to find an attorney that will do it on a contingent fee basis.

 

[dioxide45]

I don't get how in the context of this discussion, Abound isn't just a different version of Interval International. Trades at 8-24 months into interval being available immediately to other non-owners do not infringe on Home Priority Period rights, correct?

The difference is that with II, Vistana doesn't necessarily deposit a week right away for non-owners to exchange into. We don't really know when they deposit and they have shown they don't deposit the best prime weeks.

 

[timsi]

You'd best sue them now, then. I was able to book a week at Lagunamar in the 8-12 month period using a week from Mountainside Villas at Massanutten through Interval International - a different exchange system than Abound. I wish you the best of luck in that litigation and recommend trying to find an attorney that will do it on a contingent fee basis.

So you are saying that there is mounting evidence

Home owners have never challenged Interval because the good deposits are so scarce that they do not really matter in the overall scheme so nobody would bother with this issue. But when you design a parallel system to unfairly compete with the existing internal exchange and infringe the home owners' rights, it is a whole new ball game. My guess is that Marriott will not want to get to the point of a litigation. During discovery there may be access to their daily decisions concerning inventory and this may prove embarrassing or worse.

 

[vikingsholm]

After reading through a fair number of these comments, all I can say is what a complicated mess.

I'll pretty much ignore it anyway, my main hope is that whatever they set up doesn't result in a lot of raiding of good Marriott units by those who join into the combined system from Westin and Sheraton. I enjoyed a few stays we had at Westin in Hawaii and elsewhere, but not as much as the Marriotts there. Sticking with Marriott, Ritz, Worldmark, and some other independent timeshares that we own to use and trade covers our bases quite well, and this seems like something I'm a bound to stay away from.

 

[sharr7]

The difference is that with II, Vistana doesn't necessarily deposit a week right away for non-owners to exchange into. We don't really know when they deposit and they have shown they don't deposit the best prime weeks.

Doesn't seem like we could know any of this for sure. Yes it probably takes them at least a few days to assign and transfer a specific week but there's no guarantees they wait until 8 months out. And assuming they do assign weeks 8+ months they may just fill someone's ongoing search and no one else would ever know it was in the II system.
There's actually more "proof" that Abound will NOT release exchanged weeks to the masses because they have to wait until the 12 month window, but maybe they will "deposit" later as well if thats what II does.

 

[The Colorado Kid]

After reading through a fair number of these comments, all I can say is what a complicated mess.

I'll pretty much ignore it anyway, my main hope is that whatever they set up doesn't result in a lot of raiding of good Marriott units by those who join into the combined system from Westin and Sheraton. I enjoyed a few stays we had at Westin in Hawaii and elsewhere, but not as much as the Marriotts there. Sticking with Marriott, Ritz, Worldmark, and some other independent timeshares that we own to use and trade covers our bases quite well, and this seems like something I'm a bound to stay away from.

@vikingsholm I see what you did there

 

[CalGalTraveler]

On a one for one basis. You own ONE unit, you get ONE unit. I own one, I get one. If I take mine into any exchange pool, it’s the SAME as if I reserved my home week, or rented it, or raffled it off for charity, as far as YOUR reservation is concerned. That’s because MY reservation and what I do with it, or not, doesn’t affect your reservation EITHER way. Availability is not adversely affected when a reservation is made, because instead of 5,000 owners competing for 5,000 weeks there would be 4,999 owners competing for 4,999 weeks when one reservation is off the table. Why is this so difficult to follow? Or are you being deliberately obtuse to continue this interpretation for the sake of argument only?

One to one is not always the case. How do you explain ePlus upgrades, where II earns an upgrade fee from a larger or more luxurious unit that is not equivalent? That's not 1:1. And what happens to the owner that deposited the upgraded 2 bdrm unit? Musical chairs - someone must lose out.

As you stated, Abound so far appears to add the ability to transfer owner priority rights to the exchange. This is new and different from SOs and II and not how the system was designed. This is why this is a red flag.

If 50 (1 - 50 weeks) deeded owners are already competing for 12 OF VOIs for 2 key weeks (Presidents, July 4) then how is it that MVC who manages the exchange is competing on equal footing as owners when it was already demonstrated earlier in this thread that they are offering an OF July 4 week on Mariott.com for $2000/night? Or taking best weeks to Abound in order to squeeze owners to join their system?

Does anyone honestly believe MVCs odds were 1:50 - on par with deeded owners - for booking that WKORV OF Deluxe July 4 week that they placed on Marriott.com? ("but we should trust them to do the right thing"...umm, right)

Abound is a new house advantage that they are adding to the system and it is unfair advantage inconsistent with the CC&Rs. As an owner, I am absolutley affected because rather than 1:50 odds my odds of reserving prime weeks has now been reduced. It is unfair competition because the owner that deposited only had 1:50 if they reserved themselves.

 

[SueDonJ]

... Abound is a new house advantage that they are adding to the system and it is unfair advantage inconsistent with the CC&Rs.

How can any of us know if this definitive statement is true or false when none of the governing documents related to Vistana's integration in Marriott's Destination Club/Abound program have been released? The documents based on the program's specifics that have had to be reviewed and authorized by regulatory agencies?

You might be correct and Marriott Vacations Worldwide is going to put their entire well-established corporation completely at risk by flagrantly violating the ownership rights of the relatively few Vistana owners in their entire portfolio. Sure, anything's possible. But I would think that the time for such definitive charges of illegal activity would wait until the proof is in hand.

 

[alexadeparis]

I do not think you understand. According to the resort rules :

"Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home
Resort have the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type
at their Home Resort"
It clearly mentions you have to own those VOI, not to get them through some novel and contorted transfer of rights through an exchange (like Abound, VSN or any other).

If you own Sheraton Flex you have fractions of 8 Sheraton resorts so you do not have any VOI in WKORVN but somehow you will have access to that resort at 12 months? How come you do not infringe the rights of the actual home owners to enjoy an exclusive 4 month period to book/cancel as many times as they want before others have any access? To me Marriott would attack with a bazooka the concept of home resort ownership, it would not be subtle at all.

”exclusive right to compete to reserve” means we both reserve from the same home resort pool. I reserve mine and place the reservation into Abound. The rest are available for you to try to reserve, but I am no longer competing. Mine moves into Abound and then Abound members can compete for it. In order for an Abound member to compete for it, if they have an underlying week, they have to give up their home week, too. (Leave pure points out of this discussion for clarity). In order to play in VSN staroption, II or Abound, you have to forfeit your home use. What is incomprehensible here for you?


as for Sheraton flex, your individual ownership may not be tied to a specific ownership week, but the entire flex pool IS actually composed of underlying unit weeks and one with equivalent points value to what you put into Abound will be provided to Abound. You won’t get to see or select which one but you don’t get to do that with a VSN deposit into II anymore either. I think your concerns are WAY overblown and misguided and at the end of the day, much ado about nothing. I don’t see how the home resort right is being infringed in ANY of your proposed scenarios.

 

[alexadeparis]

One to one is not always the case. How do you explain ePlus upgrades, where II earns an upgrade fee from a larger or more luxurious unit that is not equivalent? That's not 1:1. And what happens to the owner that deposited the upgraded 2 bdrm unit? Musical chairs - someone must lose out.

As you stated, Abound adds the ability to transfer owner priority rights to the exchange. This is new and different from SOs and II and not how the system was designed. This is why this is a red flag.

If 50 (1 - 50 weeks) deeded owners are already competing for 12 OF VOIs for 2 key weeks (Presidents, July 4) then how is it that MVC who manages the exchange is competing on equal footing as owners when it was already demonstrated earlier in this thread that they are offering an OF July 4 week on Mariott.com for $2000/night? Or taking best weeks to Abound in order to squeeze owners to join their system?

Does anyone honestly believe MVCs odds were 1:50 for booking that event week that they placed on Marriott.com? ("but we should trust them to do the right thing"...umm, right)

Abound is a new house advantage that they are adding to the system and it is unfair advantage inconsistent with the CC&Rs. As an owner, I am absolutley affected because rather than 1:50 odds my odds of reserving prime weeks has now been reduced. It is unfair competition because the owner that deposited only had 1:50 if they reserved themselves.

An e-plus upgrade is still one unit for one unit and once the unit goes into exchange it’s no longer a candidate for home resort priority. Like for like is what you are talking about, and that is not the same as what the discussion of home resort priority is or how it works. Yes exchanging Carries risks by getting a smaller unit, or worse resort quality or worse season, but that’s baked into the exchange cake and has been going on long before abound or even VSN.

 

[remowidget]

The problem is we already don’t see WKORV/N and Nanea inventory available at 8 months at VSN. It wasn’t the case before. something always available at 8 months, although it might be gone in 23 seconds, still something available at 8 months. Now, nothing is available.

There is a whole other dynamic going on here. Lots of people have tons of banked expiring staroptions due to covid and are now using them.