Marriott Abound

[daviator]

I am curious, how does it work with these packages? Do they guarantee a price and the current bonuses you may have negotiated or it's just the price per point that is guaranteed? Do you have to go back to the resort to get the deal or you can do it over the phone from home anytime within the next 18 months?

My understanding is that, when you go back to utilize the Encore Package stay, the same purchase deal that was originally offered will be available to you. Sometimes they even sweeten the pot as they try to make a sale. (Of course, the same deal might have been available even without the Encore Package, but part of the “schtick“ is that prices are always going up and the Encore Package lets you lock in this great deal.)

I assume you could call in and make the purchase in the interim if you were dying to do so. I’m not sure why you’d want to do that, since you are going back to the resort to use the Encore package anyway, right? And since they credit you for the cost of the encore package if you purchase, I suspect that buying before you use it would mean you’d get the credit but wouldn’t actually be able to use the stay. I might be wrong on that.

I doubt that many people buy the encore package with the expectation they are going to come back and buy the deal they’ve just turned down. They buy it because it’s a pretty good deal, and then Marriott/Vistana gets another shot at selling them something. And – often enough to make the whole thing worthwhile for them – sometimes they are successful at making the sale on the return visit.

MVC says “we won’t sell anything but Abound once it launches.” But I’ll bet there will be exceptions to thar. If somebody wants to spend for the older product, I’ll be surprised if they can’t find a way to sell it to them, at least for the near term. Returning Encore guests will likely be one of those exceptions, and they’ll sell it as “nobody else can still buy this product, but we'll sell it to you because you’re special!”

 

[timsi]

I’m not sure why you’d want to do that, since you are going back to the resort to use the Encore package anyway, right? And since they credit you for the cost of the encore package if you purchase, I suspect that buying before you use it would mean you’d get the credit but wouldn’t actually be able to use the stay. I might be wrong on that.

First of all, I would not lose half a day of vacation and I would rather deal with the details of a contract from the comfort of my home and at my pace. Even if I still have to go to a presentation when I return to the resort, it would be a short meeting I assume, especially after they realize I just bought. I may have to meet a minimum spending on a new credit card, so I would not want to wait few more months. And of course, they may close a certain window, for example there may be a credible information that they will indeed stop converting certain contracts. And speaking of Aventuras, if they run out of inventory, they will indeed stop selling it and you may be offered a "superior" alternative that may not meet your needs or be more expensive in fact. Buying Encore at Lagunamar is a strong indication that they will still have it in the future but things can change in 18 months.

 

[Eric B]

First of all, I would not lose half a day of vacation and I would rather deal with the details of a contract from the comfort of my home and at my pace. Even if I still have to go to a presentation when I return to the resort, it would be a short meeting I assume, especially after they realize I just bought. I may have to meet a minimum spending on a new credit card, so I would not want to wait few more months. And of course, they may close a certain window, for example there may be a credible information that they will indeed stop converting certain contracts. And speaking of Aventuras, if they run out of inventory, they will indeed stop selling it and you may be offered a "superior" alternative that may not meet your needs or be more expensive in fact. Buying Encore at Lagunamar is a strong indication that they will still have it in the future but things can change in 18 months.

All the guarantee covers is the cost per point of Aventuras. The cost of the Encore package included round trip transfers from the airport and 100K Bonvoy points. I believe they’ll have enough points to sell based on the number of VOIs at Lagunamar they own though I don’t really plan on purchasing (of course).

My perspective is that I bought what I own to use where I own with some extra SOs to use in the VSN. If I get access to Abound and find it useful, I might buy more - for any of you Marriott readers out there. But the price point has to be right; my preference would be a reasonable enrollment fee for existing resale owners similar to the implementation of the DC and free for mandatory resales already in the system. Bottom line is I can live without it — I’m Diamond level with Intercontinental and Wyndham and don’t need the Marriott titanium, which was their major selling point. I already do quite well with vacation homes through ThirdHome.

 

[DavidnRobin]

The definition of this is what seems to be in question. What is it they own/control? Only weeks in the Abound/DC trust? Or is it also inventory that owners elect Abound Club Points for prior to or even at the 12 month mark?

Both, but not sure how there is Owner owned inventory at >12 months (except for fixed weeks).
I am looking at this as what HomeResort Owners can claim at 12-8 months - not Marriott/Vistana - it can only total 100%.
Going to be easy to tell from WKORV OF.

If it comes to it - going to contact a bunch of WKORV OF Owners (similar methods used for WSJ-VGV) and ask to document denials of use. I have about 8 so far (different dates) from online attempts. These owners IMO will be the most vocal.


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[jabberwocky]

I think there's a good chance because this thread killed of the Merger Speculation thread where all the action was....no posts since Friday. Jabberwocky, I'd like to revise my page guess on that thread down from 106

LOL…I guess we should have put real stakes up for this. Next wager will have to be for a beverage at the winners favorite resort.

 

[alexadeparis]

To add a bit further to the discussion, my understanding is that Vistana used to let floating week owners book a week and deposit that week into II. That method was changed over the years to alleviate the issue of floating week owners booking desirable weeks and depositing them in II because they have a higher value for use as exchange weeks. The reason it was changed and the Network Operator began booking for bulk deposits in anticipation of owners desires to exchange was very likely to fix that - the result is that any deposits from resorts that are floating week resorts are ones that are reserved and made by the Network Operator on behalf of floating week owners - there is the possibility that a Lagunamar owner of a Christmas week could deposit the fixed week they own, but that would be the exception.

Right, and it was a firestorm when that changed, but the VSN rules are subject to change, as that situation demonstrated. I have a fixed week, fixed unit but I still get a blended unit in my season if depositing for exchange.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Both, but not sure how there is Owner owned inventory at >12 months (except for fixed weeks).
I am looking at this as what HomeResort Owners can claim at 12-8 months - not Marriott/Vistana - it can only total 100%.
Going to be easy to tell from WKORV OF.

If it comes to it - going to contact a bunch of WKORV OF Owners (similar methods used for WSJ-VGV) and ask to document denials of use. I have about 8 so far (different dates) from online attempts. These owners IMO will be the most vocal.


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Also check Marriott.com and track rental listings for prime weeks by MVC. This should not be hard to track because if you know that <10% of OF units are owned by MVC and spread those out through weeks 1 - 50 odds (what owners reasonably can book competitively per the CC&Rs). The total number of weeks listed should not be greater than 10% and the weekly number of OF rentals should not exceed the average threshold during prime weeks. i.e. a chart on the listings of prime weeks for rent on Marriott.com should not be greater than average spread. If it skews higher toward low demand weeks, that is fine because it means that they are making room for owners to use their deed during high demand.

How did you find out the number of OF weeks owned by MVC? I would like to do the same for WKORVN. More OF units but still should be doable since we know Flex units are not OF.

 

[vikingsholm]

Ok, this question has probably been addressed but there are a lot of detailed posts here already and I haven't read them all due to the focus on Westin technicalities that I don't really know much about. So I'd appreciate if anyone can give a quick answer, since Marriott does not seem to have reached out to us Marriott owners yet with detailed info about how it affects us.

For Marriott owners who are enrolled, what happens with the DC? It sounds like it becomes renamed Abound and operates similar to how the DC did.

But for Marriott-only owners, do the Westin deposits that become points within Abound automatically show up as available to existing Marriott DC enrollees (I assume with less preferential date availability than for Westin owners), or do Marriott DC enrollees have to sign up for a newly merged Abound system that will include Westin deposits? If so, is there a fee for Marriott DC enrollees to do this?

Also, I would echo SueDonJ's prior post about how we had a lot of initial skepticism about the DC program, but many of us warmed up to it after trying it out and understanding it better. I was under the initial misconception that we had to choose to permanently convert our legacy weeks to points to enroll. But when I learned that it was an optional choice each year to use the existing week, enroll it for points, or rent it out, I understood the desirability better. It has been really great to have this flexibility. Because we own a quarter share of legacy Grand Residence club weeks that are enrolled, that gives us a lot of flexibility in using weeks vs converting to DC points vs renting each year. A lot of our stays are less than 7 days using the DC points, and the availability is better in the points system than for II exchanges for Marriotts generally as well.

 

[remowidget]

since Marriott does not seem to have reached out to us Marriott owners yet with detailed info about how it affects us.

Marriott hasn't reached out to Vistana owners either. This is pretty much all speculation, with leaked info thrown in. That said, it doesn't sound like Marriott owners will be affected much, except you will have new options for booking into Vistana resorts as availability permits.

 

[vikingsholm]

Marriott hasn't reached out to Vistana owners either. This is pretty much all speculation, with leaked info thrown in. That said, it doesn't sound like Marriott owners will be affected much, except you will have new options for booking into Vistana resorts as availability permits.

Thanks for responding!

 

[DavidnRobin]

How did you find out the number of OF weeks owned by MVC? I would like to do the same for WKORVN. More OF units but still should be doable since we know Flex units are not OF.

My number is a guesstimate now - the percentage come from Starwood/Vistana merger in 2014 (?).

There is apparently interest in this topic.
Not sure if WKORVN OF should be added as the number of OF VOIs are high, and Friday HR reservations are allowed whereas WKORV OF only has Sat and Sun reservation (8-12 months).

I am open to ideas.
Stay tuned.


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[sharr7]

Does HI keep online property records that would show current owner of each unit/week? Tedious but it could be done. Pretty sure I could do this for Virgin Grand-WSJ if I ever had a reason to.

 

[kozykritter]

Ok, this question has probably been addressed but there are a lot of detailed posts here already and I haven't read them all due to the focus on Westin technicalities that I don't really know much about. So I'd appreciate if anyone can give a quick answer, since Marriott does not seem to have reached out to us Marriott owners yet with detailed info about how it affects us.

For Marriott owners who are enrolled, what happens with the DC? It sounds like it becomes renamed Abound and operates similar to how the DC did.

But for Marriott-only owners, do the Westin deposits that become points within Abound automatically show up as available to existing Marriott DC enrollees (I assume with less preferential date availability than for Westin owners), or do Marriott DC enrollees have to sign up for a newly merged Abound system that will include Westin deposits? If so, is there a fee for Marriott DC enrollees to do this?

Also, I would echo SueDonJ's prior post about how we had a lot of initial skepticism about the DC program, but many of us warmed up to it after trying it out and understanding it better. I was under the initial misconception that we had to choose to permanently convert our legacy weeks to points to enroll. But when I learned that it was an optional choice each year to use the existing week, enroll it for points, or rent it out, I understood the desirability better. It has been really great to have this flexibility. Because we own a quarter share of legacy Grand Residence club weeks that are enrolled, that gives us a lot of flexibility in using weeks vs converting to DC points vs renting each year. A lot of our stays are less than 7 days using the DC points, and the availability is better in the points system than for II exchanges for Marriotts generally as well.

From my understanding after two recent sales presentations, it's the MVC Exchange Company that is being renamed Abound. This is the place where enrolled owners weeks inventory is put once they are elected for DP in a given year and it is the same place that Vistana weeks inventory will be put when they elect for DP. I don't think it's function is changing at all, just its name. Brian Miller made it clear in his recent letter that there will be no incremental fee for enrolled Marriott owners (weeks/DC trust) to enjoy this new usage option of booking Vistana inventory.

Technically the DC trust inventory remains separate, bookable only by those with DC trust points and is unaffected by this renaming. In practice according to people in the know here, most of the DC trust inventory is actually moved over to the exchange company at 12 months and available for booking by those with elected DP as well as those with DC trust points. Marriott could reduce or stop the DC trust inventory transfers at any point in the future. I believe if you own both DC trust points and enrolled weeks then Marriott treats all of the points you own/elect as eligible to book DC trust inventory. It's essentially the same thing they're doing with dual owners of Vistana and Marriott and is the reason that I recently bought 1000 DC trust points to create the hybrid account and have any of my elected Vistana points be DC inventory eligible now and in the future in case they do actually reduce or stop their current inventory transfers to the exchange company.

 

[timsi]

Technically the DC trust inventory remains separate, bookable only by those with DC trust points ... I believe if you own both DC trust points and enrolled weeks then Marriott treats all of the points you own/elect as eligible to book DC trust inventory.

So there might be leakage between buckets. This may be additional proof that they need to preserve the rights of the owners during the home reservation period.

 

[Eric B]

So there might be leakage between buckets. This may be additional proof that they need to preserve the rights of the owners during the home reservation period.

The cited behavior on the part of Marriott is placing inventory owned by the trust into the Destination Club exchange. It’s not reserving Vistana weeks during the Home Reservation Period. I could just as plausibly use it as evidence that they should give me milk and cookies at bedtime. I understand the concern expressed, but not everything is related to it.

 

[timsi]

I could just as plausibly use it as evidence that they should give me milk and cookies at bedtime.

You are trying to trivialize something that may have more profound implications.
If someone with just a few trust points can use ALL the points in the account to access the trust inventory, the 1/1 exchange theory goes to the bin.

 

[Eric B]

You are trying to trivialize something that may have more profound implications.
If someone with just a few trust points can use ALL the points in the account to access the trust inventory, the 1/1 exchange theory goes to the bin.

I get that there is potential for a great deal of anxiety in the absence of actual reliable information. I’m not too interested in speculating on what might happen and whether Marriott is the bogeyman because they behave in a way that hasn’t bothered current Marriott owners for the last decade. The data gathering proposed by some owners re: WKORV/N OF reservations sounds like it might be useful and there seems to be precedent for similar actions having an effect at WSJ VGV. Is there anything you would propose to accomplish to address your concerns?

 

[Hankmoon]

-

 

[timsi]

I found something that, if I read it correctly, seems to give them the latitude to do whatever they want with the inventory when it comes to exchanges.


"Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network
Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at
any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the
Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External
Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion,
of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Starwood Preferred Guest
Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit
and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request."

I think this is in conflict with the home reservation clause but at least they have the leg to stand on, designed from the very beginning to give them maximum flexibility and no accountability. Theoretically speaking, a millisecond after midnight they can block any or all the units and they seem to be within their rights to do so.

Interesting to note, they do not even need to wait for the home owners to make the deposits, they can book based on their "anticipation".

 

[Eric B]

I found something that, if I read it correctly, seems to give them the latitude to do whatever they want with the inventory when it comes to exchanges.


"Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network
Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at
any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the
Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External
Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion,
of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Starwood Preferred Guest
Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit
and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request."

I think this is in conflict with the home reservation clause but at least they have the leg to stand on, designed from the very beginning to give them maximum flexibility and no accountability. Theoretically speaking, a millisecond after midnight they can block any or all the units and they seem to be within their rights to do so.

Interesting to note, they do not even need to wait for the home owners to make the deposits, they can book based on their "anticipation".

Let me guess, was that in Section 4.2.c. of the VSN Rules?

Marriott Abound

But this is the exact same thing. In what you are saying it doesn't matter really if you release the 25 fourth of July weeks at month 12 or month 8. Each has access to their own inventory. In practice it is the same thing. The moment you make a reservation through VSN, you lose you home week...

tugbbs.com

 

[alexadeparis]

I found something that, if I read it correctly, seems to give them the latitude to do whatever they want with the inventory when it comes to exchanges.


"Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Starwood Preferred Guest Program Exchanges. Network
Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at
any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the
Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External
Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion,
of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Starwood Preferred Guest
Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit
and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request."

I think this is in conflict with the home reservation clause but at least they have the leg to stand on, designed from the very beginning to give them maximum flexibility and no accountability. Theoretically speaking, a millisecond after midnight they can block any or all the units and they seem to be within their rights to do so.

Interesting to note, they do not even need to wait for the home owners to make the deposits, they can book based on their "anticipation".

we tried to explain this 4 pages ago
because of this, you won't see much difference in the availability in my opinion. There are still the same number of unit weeks and the same number of reservations. We are adding another "bucket" for inventory, but now there is less in each bucket. It really is that simple. This is NOT a doomsday scenario, this is going to be a blip on the radar for the next few years, and then after that, i predict that the novelty will wear off and people will revert, for the most part, to going to their favorite places. I for one will not be electing for points every year if it means I don't get to go to St John. There is nothing in Marriott that enticing for me, that frankly, I haven't already been to using II or some other means.

 

[timsi]

Let me guess, was that in Section 4.2.c. of the VSN Rules?

Marriott Abound

But this is the exact same thing. In what you are saying it doesn't matter really if you release the 25 fourth of July weeks at month 12 or month 8. Each has access to their own inventory. In practice it is the same thing. The moment you make a reservation through VSN, you lose you home week...

tugbbs.com

Sorry, I clearly did not read that part.

 

[Eric B]

The key item in that section is that the bulk reservations and banking have to be for the purpose of meeting VSN member anticipated demand for external exchanges or Bonvoy conversion. They aren't for rental by Marriott or for meeting the demand side from external exchanges. They can do that under other portions of the rules later, outside of the Home Resort Reservation Period.

 

[timsi]

we tried to explain this 4 pages ago
because of this, you won't see much difference in the availability in my opinion. There are still the same number of unit weeks and the same number of reservations. We are adding another "bucket" for inventory, but now there is less in each bucket. It really is that simple. This is NOT a doomsday scenario, this is going to be a blip on the radar for the next few years, and then after that, i predict that the novelty will wear off and people will revert, for the most part, to going to their favorite places. I for one will not be electing for points every year if it means I don't get to go to St John. There is nothing in Marriott that enticing for me, that frankly, I haven't already been to using II or some other means.

The developer has the latitude to book the better weeks of the season and give them to an exchange and there is nothing you can do about it. It does not even need to wait for you to deposit, they can "anticipate" it will eventually happen. They do not need to own a single Vistana unit and Vistana can still be in Abound before the owners deposit anything. If they give better units/weeks to Abound, they will create more exchanges in Abound and artificially depress VSN. They can also make the week ownership less powerfull and the window of opportunity to book much tighter.
The owners did not complain about this issue when Interval was getting fewer good deposits because there was more left for the home owners (and probably for the developer to rent). But this also means the pendulum can swing in the other direction.

 

[Eric B]

The developer has the latitude to book the better weeks of the season and give them to an exchange and there is nothing you can do about it.

... if there is anticipated demand away from the better weeks of the season to use external exchanges or for Bonvoy point conversion. They could, in their discretion anticipate such demand, but are very likely going to look to historical reservation trends and act to preserve the value of their corporate good will.