Marriott Abound

[timsi]

But this is the exact same thing. In what you are saying it doesn't matter really if you release the 25 fourth of July weeks at month 12 or month 8. Each has access to their own inventory.

In practice it is the same thing. The moment you make a reservation through VSN, you lose you home week. The rest is semantics. The are both exchanges and should respect the rules of the Vistana resorts and they should both trade at 8 months.

 

[timsi]

It proves that owners don't currently get all of the best weeks and there are different pools of points.

It proves absolutely nothing, this is less than two weeks away. We are discussing about inventory at 12 and 8 months.

But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on! Many would love to have a discussion with Marriott about it.

 

[remowidget]

It proves absolutely nothing, this is less than two weeks away. We are discussing about inventory at 12 and 8 months.

But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on! Many would love to have a discussion with Marriott about it.

Actually thus thread is supposed to be about Abound which hasn't even been released yet.

 

[dioxide45]

It proves absolutely nothing, this is less than two weeks away. We are discussing about inventory at 12 and 8 months.

But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on! Many would love to have a discussion with Marriott about it.

There is Maui availability on Marriott.com for stays through March 25, 2023 at WKORV S/N. That is still in the 12-8 month home resort window and March is pretty prime time in Maui.

 

[timsi]

There is Maui availability on Marriott.com for stays through March 25, 2023 at WKORV S/N. That is still in the 12-8 month home resort window and March is pretty prime time in Maui.

In any case, those are not exchanges. You can also rent your own week as soon as you make a reservation.

 

[dioxide45]

In any case, those are not exchanges. You can also rent your own week as soon as you make a reservation.

That isn't what you asked though. You said "But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on!" So there it is...

 

[daviator]

There is Maui availability on Marriott.com for stays through March 25, 2023 at WKORV S/N. That is still in the 12-8 month home resort window and March is pretty prime time in Maui.

Availability in Marriott.com is kind of a red herring. The inventory that probably/potentially goes to Marriott to be rented for cash includes much of the developer-owned inventory, weeks that are traded in for Bonvoy points, maybe weeks that have been foreclosed upon and taken back by the HOA (and not yet sold back to MVC) and maybe unreserved inventory inside of the last minute timeframe where MVC/Vistana has the contractual right to use/monetize that inventory. im pretty sure that developer-owned and HOA-owned inventory does not go into the StarOptions pool or the home resort pool. But maybe much of it will go into the Abound pool. That’s an open question, I think. (Also, some of that unsold inventory is used for Encore packages and similar sales inducements.)

In other words, there is a whole lot of inventory which is not owned by end-purchasers and is available to be monetized for cash rentals. Now the burning question is how do they decide which particular dates are theirs to rent? I don’t think any of us know with certainty, but I do think it would be fair for them to take a basically even percentage of each day of the year, based on how much of that inventory they control. So if they own/control 5% of the inventory, then they get 5% of the inventory for January 1, 5% for January 2, etc. And maybe that's how they do it.

As for the last-minute inventory, which becomes theirs at – I forget, 2 months? – they would obviously get access to those nights as they come inside of the last-minute period and are otherwise unreserved. It seems unlikely that there would be last minute unreserved inventory at peak times, but there likely is at slower times.

 

[timsi]

That isn't what you asked though. You said "But if you do have proof that the owners do not currently get the best weeks, bring it on!" So there it is...

I was not asking specifically for proof from Marriott.com and you probably know my comment was tongue in cheek and I was not expecting for you or anybody else to come with actual proof.

 

[timsi]

Now the burning question is how do they decide which particular dates are theirs to rent? I don’t think any of us know with certainty, but I do think it would be fair for them to take a basically even percentage of each day of the year, based on how much of that inventory they control. So if they own/control 5% of the inventory, then they get 5% of the inventory for January 1, 5% for January 2, etc. And maybe that's how they do it.

Maybe, but corporations are supposed to maximize their profits so they may also keep a little bit more of the high demand weeks for themselves.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Here is proof it doesn't work that way

This could have been a developer owned week or owner Bonvoy exchange. We will never know. Regardless it's a classic example of self-dealing by the developer

 

[DavidnRobin]

Besides fear and sales lies, where has 8 months been mentioned?

8 months is only a Vistana thing.

Because unlike the limitations that come with HomeResort availability (Owners reserving their weeks at 12-8 months) reducing availability by non-Owners (as discussed), Marriott owners now can get at VSN inventory at 8 months using DC points. They will pay a premium, but still will have access. This will mean more people trying to access prime resorts.

12-8 month inventory at high demand properties (Maui) for non-HomeResort owners (Marriott) is only going to be eligible for those HR owners that exchanged out of their HR. The rest of inventory is controlled by HR owners.


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[alexadeparis]

You are 100% correct, any unit available at 12 months in any exchange system (internal or external) would infringe the rights of the owners at that resort who are supposed to have exclusive rights to compete for any unit at that resort for four full months. Additionally, it creates a competitive disadvantage for VSN so basically all Vistana owners will be affected if Marriott decides to break that rule.

I don’t understand what you are saying here. Let’s say there are 5 units available at WKORV. Let’s look at 5 owners. Owner A selects their home week for personal use. Owner B selects their home week to rent out. Owner C decides to deposit into II. Owner D decides to wait until 8 months to use staroptions somewhere else, making a unit theoretically available in WKORV for use by a VSN member. Owner E decides to elect an Abound exchange so he can go to a new Marriott resort he’s never seen, making 1 unit available in Abound for which he will get a vacation unit in exchange. 5 units, 5 owners, 5 uses. How does one owner exchanging into Abound reduce anything for anyone else? He’s making use of his unit. He has the right to do anything he wants with it, including reserve the unit and not show up, which would NOT affect the use of yours.

 

[timsi]

I don’t understand what you are saying here. Let’s say there are 5 units available at WKORV. Let’s look at 5 owners. Owner A selects their home week for personal use. Owner B selects their home week to rent out. Owner C decides to deposit into II. Owner D decides to wait until 8 months to use staroptions somewhere else, making a unit theoretically available in WKORV for use by a VSN member. Owner E decides to elect an Abound exchange so he can go to a new Marriott resort he’s never seen, making 1 unit available in Abound for which he will get a vacation unit in exchange. 5 units, 5 owners, 5 uses. How does one owner exchanging into Abound reduce anything for anyone else? He’s making use of his unit. He has the right to do anything he wants with it, including reserve the unit and not show up, which would NOT affect the use of yours.

The home resort priority is there for a reason, to make sure that the needs of the resort owners are satisfied first for EVERY week of the calendar. That implies (and it happens all the time) that high demand weeks at certain resorts will NEVER be available to exchangers because the owners have already booked ALL the units, and NOTHING is left for non-owners. This is the whole idea behind the Home Resort Reservation Period and VSN starting the reservation window at 8 months only.

When you squeeze in another pool at 12 months, the resort owners are no longer in full control, it is Marriott that decides how many units are still available to the resort owners and how many are available to the exchangers for every week of the calendar. Can the resort owners book 100% of the units for all the high demand weeks? No, it is Marriott that decides, they are in control and will give Abound (exchangers) a number of units that would otherwise be available to owners only. If you give Abound booking rights at 12 months, you seriously damage the priority of the resort owners and you place VSN to an inferior position vs Abound.

 

[Eric B]

The home resort priority is there for a reason, to make sure that the needs of the resort owners are satisfied first for EVERY week of the calendar. That implies (and it happens all the time) that high demand weeks at certain resorts will NEVER be available to exchangers because the owners have already booked ALL the units, and NOTHING is left for non-owners. This is the whole idea behind the Home Resort Reservation Period and VSN starting the reservation window at 8 months only.

When you squeeze in another pool at 12 months, the resort owners are no longer in full control, it is Marriott that decides how many units are still available to the resort owners and how many are available to the exchangers for every week of the calendar. Can the resort owners book 100% of the units for all the high demand weeks? No, it is Marriott that decides, they are in control and will give Abound (exchangers) a number of units that would otherwise be available to owners only. If you give Abound booking rights at 12 months, you seriously damage the priority of the resort owners and you place VSN to an inferior position vs Abound.

But see, Section 4.2.c. of the VSN rules, which reads (emphasis added):

c. Bulk Banking for Anticipated External and Marriott Bonvoy Program Exchanges. Network Operator has the right, but not the obligation, to reserve a number of Floating Vacation Periods from time to time at any time after the beginning of the Home Resort Reservation Period, and any unreserved Vacation Period after the Home Resort Reservation Period, for the purpose of depositing the reserved Vacation Periods with an External Exchange Program on behalf of Network Members based on Network Operator's determination, in its sole discretion, of anticipated Network Member demand to access an External Exchange Program or the Marriott Bonvoy Program. Network Members may request an external exchange company assignment based upon the resort, unit and season being assigned by the Network Member for an external exchange request.

This already allows for some "damage" to the priority of resort owners at 12 months.

Section 9.3 of the VSN rules includes the following reservation of the ability to modify them (emphasis added):

9.3 Amendment of the Network Rules. Except as provided in the Resort Documents, Network Operator expressly reserves the right to amend the Network Rules, with respect to Network Resorts in all respects, in its sole discretion, from time to time, without the consent of Network Members, for any purpose, including permitting banking of Vacation Periods and creating Network tiers. Network Operator shall deliver notice of any amendment to each Primary Contact at the Primary Contact’s last known address. Notice of amendments may be made by newsletter, annual mailings, facsimile, or e-mail.

I anticipate that Marriott will need to modify the rules to cite the availability of Abound. I haven't been able to find anything in the individual resort rules that would conflict with these powers of the Network Operator (Marriott). I'm not convinced that the definition previously cited for the Home Reservation Period would do that, so I do believe that they are currently allowed to make reservations to deposit in II during that period and have seen evidence that they do so.

I suppose they could rely on the creation of Network Tiers to differentiate between qualified and unqualified mandatory resale ownerships, but there is clearly a reservation of the right to change how reservations are made.

As a potentially interesting aside, I just did an update in Lagunamar and wound up getting an Encore package that guarantees me the right to purchase Aventuras points at the current pricing for the next 18 months. It seems kind of interesting that they're giving that guarantee given the rumors from the sales folks that only AC/DC points will be sold once the new program is live. Given that and the potential for a recession starting soon or in progress, it makes me wonder how things are really going to work out for enrolling the unwashed.

 

[timsi]

But see, Section 4.2.c. of the VSN rules, which reads (emphasis added):



This already allows for some "damage" to the priority of resort owners at 12 months.

Section 9.3 of the VSN rules includes the following reservation of the ability to modify them (emphasis added):



I anticipate that Marriott will need to modify the rules to cite the availability of Abound. I haven't been able to find anything in the individual resort rules that would conflict with these powers of the Network Operator (Marriott). I'm not convinced that the definition previously cited for the Home Reservation Period would do that, so I do believe that they are currently allowed to make reservations to deposit in II during that period and have seen evidence that they do so.

I suppose they could rely on the creation of Network Tiers to differentiate between qualified and unqualified mandatory resale ownerships, but there is clearly a reservation of the right to change how reservations are made.

As a potentially interesting aside, I just did an update in Lagunamar and wound up getting an Encore package that guarantees me the right to purchase Aventuras points at the current pricing for the next 18 months. It seems kind of interesting that they're giving that guarantee given the rumors from the sales folks that only AC/DC points will be sold once the new program is live. Given that and the potential for a recession starting soon or in progress, it makes me wonder how things are really going to work out for enrolling the unwashed.

Thank you for posting this. The rules I mentioned before (the resort rules) referr to exclusive rights to compete during the first 4 months so there is clearly a conflict.

My impression is that courts generally do not favor conflicting and probably intentionally vague rules that go against the rights of the consumers and can be interpreted by the corporations as they please.

To me it is not only how it is written, the practice has been clear from the very beginning, confirmed with every written marketing material and sales presentation: owners first then exchangers and owners have a reasonable expectation for that to continue. If Marriott needs to change something they may have to change a lot of governing documents and that takes time and will be questioned. I am curious how things will play out, it is possible the delay is not only due to the IT issues, maybe there are other things that have not been straightened out. Maybe the IT dept also had to deal with ever changing parameters as the understanding of what they can legally do evolved.

 

[kozykritter]

As alexadeparis pointed out here, all of the mentioned transactions options during the priority period are being initiated by owners with priority, not Vistana or Marriott. That is the right that you are trying to protect here and that is the right that's being exercised. No infractions involved. An owner with priority electing to receive Abound Club Points and give up their priority week is no different. I think the truth is people are uncomfortable with the Marriott fox being in charge of the Vistana chicken coop. They are the evil giant that gobbled up Starwood hotels and SPG and destroyed them for us (still hurts!) and now has Vistana is in its grip. I hear you...but take heart. The Starwood/Vistana fox has been in charge of that same chicken coop for a long time and by my count I believe nearly all of the chickens have survived. And they haven't been doing this to be nice but to make money just like any other company. Marriott will never stay in business by starving all the chickens. They know that. They also know that they have an image/trust problem with Starwood/Vistana owners, a key group they are counting on to fuel revenue growth in the future. It's going to be okay.

 

[timsi]

As alexadeparis pointed out here, all of the mentioned transactions options during the priority period are being initiated by owners with priority, not Vistana or Marriott. That is the right that you are trying to protect here and that is the right that's being exercised. No infractions involved. An owner with priority electing to receive Abound Club Points and give up their priority week is no different. I think the truth is people are uncomfortable with the Marriott fox being in charge of the Vistana chicken coop. They are the evil giant that gobbled up Starwood and SPG and destroyed them for us (ouch!) and now has Vistana is in its grip. Well, take heart. The Starwood/Vistana fox has been in charge of that same chicken coop for a long time and by my count I believe nearly all of the chickens have survived. And they haven't been doing this to be nice but to make money just like any other company. Marriott will never stay in business by starving all the chickens. They know that. They also know that they have an image/trust problem with Starwood/Vistana owners, a key group they are counting on to fuel revenue growth in the future. It's all going to be okay.

Those transactions you are talking about are also initiated by "owners with priority" (whatever that means) when they exchange in VSN. Abound = VSN , no difference in practical terms. VSN is supposed to abide by the rules and respect the home priority period and Abound not?

 

[Eric B]

IMHO, the Network Operator is likely to treat reservation rules within the Home Resort Reservation the same for the combination of VSN, Abound, Bonvoy conversion and II bulk deposits as it has historically (since the merger/takeover) for the combination of VSN, Bonvoy conversion and II. That is to say, I would expect the Network Operator to make reasoned judgments based on its experience with the relative supply and demand for prime weeks as is allowed under the current rules - this is just an additional supply and demand stream after all. I'm getting too old to run around with my hair on fire based on what they might do in the future and, in any case, own several fixed-week fixed unit resorts where I want to go or rent out - I have minimal investment in my mandatory resale SVV weeks and my resale Lagunamar weeks and will learn to work with or without the new system when it is implemented. Haven't been a Vistana owner all that long, but if I get stuck just staying in Westins and Sheratons I will certainly get over it - even if I can't book the Xmas or July 4th weeks that I don't own.

 

[kozykritter]

Those transactions you are talking about are also initiated by "owners with priority" (whatever that means) when they exchange in VSN. Abound = VSN , no difference in practical terms. VSN is supposed to abide by the rules and respect the home priority period and Abound not?

VSN is outside of the priority period so it's not comparable. If you want to see a problem with all of this, you're going to see it regardless of what anybody else says here.

 

[kozykritter]

IMHO, the Network Operator is likely to treat reservation rules within the Home Resort Reservation the same for the combination of VSN, Abound, Bonvoy conversion and II bulk deposits as it has historically (since the merger/takeover) for the combination of VSN, Bonvoy conversion and II. That is to say, I would expect the Network Operator to make reasoned judgments based on its experience with the relative supply and demand for prime weeks as is allowed under the current rules - this is just an additional supply and demand stream after all. I'm getting too old to run around with my hair on fire based on what they might do in the future and, in any case, own several fixed-week fixed unit resorts where I want to go or rent out - I have minimal investment in my mandatory resale SVV weeks and my resale Lagunamar weeks and will learn to work with or without the new system when it is implemented. Haven't been a Vistana owner all that long, but if I get stuck just staying in Westins and Sheratons I will certainly get over it - even if I can't book the Xmas or July 4th weeks that I don't own.

LOL I like the hair on fire thing. I was thinking Chicken Little with "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" which is probably why my post ended up having chickens in it ;-P

I get it, though. Many of us have PTSD when it comes to Marriott and changing things we love plus humans are in general fearful of change so it adds up to a lot of angst and anger in many cases. Throw in a lack of any real details about the situation and really it's just a powder keg of emotions waiting to explode.

 

[timsi]

VSN is outside of the priority period so it's not comparable. If you want to see a problem with all of this, you're going to see it regardless of what anybody else says here.

VSN is outside the priority period because this is exactly how it is supposed to be. But Abound and VSN are both exchanges and they should abide by the existing rules. Now I understand why those that have Sheraton Flex or MVC points would want 12 months booking window at all the MVC and Vistana resorts but this is not how the system has been set up.

 

[kozykritter]

VSN is outside the priority period because this is exactly how it is supposed to be. But Abound and VSN are both exchanges and they should abide by the existing rules. Now I understand why those that have Sheraton Flex or MVC points would want 12 months booking window at all the MVC and Vistana resorts but this is not how the system has been set up.

You keep missing the part where the owner with priority gives up their week during the priority period to complete a variety of transactions, one option of which is electing their points to Abound. It has nothing to do with VSN. It appears from your posts that your mind may be locked into one set of facts and won't allow in any other information. That is your right. Sincerely, I hope you find some peace with this because it is happening whether each of us wants it to or not.

 

[Eric B]

LOL I like the hair on fire thing.

... there is the whole not having much left thing as another reason for this....

 

[kozykritter]

It's entirely possible that Abound may not allow Vistana properties to be booked with Vistana-elected points to cut off the type of possible circumventing of the VSN that has been outlined here. We just don't have the details yet to know.

 

[timsi]

You keep missing the part where the owner with priority gives up their week during the priority period to complete a variety of transactions, one option of which is electing their points to Abound. It has nothing to do with VSN. It appears your mind is locked into one set of facts and won't allow in any other information. Sincerely, I hope you find some peace with this because it is happening whether each of us wants it to or not.

Your post is wrong on so many levels and you do not seem to like the analogy with VSN, probably because it is too obvious that it is an exchange system, just like Abound. I hope you will be happy with whatever they have sold you and find peace as well.