Lowballers

[heathpack]

This so reminds me of the "Fairness Experiment".

Two strangers are put in a room where they can't see each other. $100 in small bills is placed between them. By flip of a coin one person is allowed to take from zero to $100 from the pile. The other person has to decide to take the remainder of the money or say no to the deal. If the second person says NO, neither person gets any money.

The concept of "fairness" is strong in human psychology.

This reminds me of an article I recently read about how a sense of "justice" is innate to a number of species- monkeys, dogs, and elephants were all mentioned. We've all seen this in dogs- a well-trained dog sees an ill-behaved dog get away with something off limits and the well-trained dog whips his/her head around, looking at the nearest human to step in and do something.

The article described an experiment that was conducted with monkeys, who were trained to a specific task and given a food reward when they completed the task correctly. One group of monkeys got a piece of cucumber for a reward, which they were perfectly happy with. The other group of monkeys were given a grape as a reward for the same task, a reward which monkeys generally strongly prefer. All was well until the first group of monkeys saw the second group of monkeys getting grapes for what they understood was merely a cucumber task. Outrage ensued, including the researchers getting the cucumbers thrown back in their faces.

No one has conducted any similar experiment with elephants, I guess they are too afraid to outrage an elephant!

It is human nature to want a good deal but it is also apparently human (and monkey & dog & elephant) nature to be annoyed by a cucumber when you could have had a grape.

H

 

[sjuhawk_jd]

But, people DO have the right to lowball a vacation rental listing. People have the right to lowball anything they want to lowball.

People have right to take anything they want from TUG without paying for a membership: agreed
People have right to listen to National Public Radio everyday without ever donating a cent: agreed
People have right to leave 1% tip for the waitress and write "get a real job" on the receipt: agreed
People have right to lowball anything they want to lowball: agreed
People have right to be shameless and cheap: agreed

 

[zinger1457]

It's funny how much some of the renters description of the 'value' of their rental sounds so much like the timeshare salesman's description of the 'value' of buying a timeshare. Some of us never learn.

 

[Beefnot]

I hate paying"market" rates. I always look for the deal. I love ebay auctions that let one submit a best offer. Sometimes i get countered, sometimes flatly denied, and other times...a heck of bargain. Why pay market rate when I may not have to?

 

[ronparise]

For those of you who hate lowballers, what do you think of Priceline?

Used it once. and I got exactly what I paid for..the worst trip of my life.

I do like William Shatner though

BTW I dont dislike a lowballer. as has been said, I can say yes or no. What I dislike is the guy that thinks that's he's doing me a favor offering that price and is offended when I say no...that guy can sleep in his car

 

[ronparise]

I hate paying"market" rates. I always look for the deal. I love ebay auctions that let one submit a best offer. Sometimes i get countered, sometimes flatly denied, and other times...a heck of bargain. Why pay market rate when I may not have to?

If you accept my definition of market price as the place where a willing seller and a willing buyer meet; than your deal, is the market price...you may think you got a deal, but all you did is to help define a new market price

 

[Beefnot]

If you accept my definition of market price as the place where a willing seller and a willing buyer meet; than your deal, is the market price...you may think you got a deal, but all you did is to help define a new market price

Wel, sort of. I see it like buying retail at Best Buy vs. buying the same item on ebay or Amazon at a discount. I try to play the lowest of multiple "market" prices. Another way to look at last minute rentals is Like manager's specials at grocery stores. Since the item has an expiration date, the "market" value of the good decays as we approach expiration. Unless the seller is realistic about this, then his perception of what is reasonable will become out of whack with the offers received the closer they get to the expiration date.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Renting above $100/month

I'll never understand the mentality of "I'd rather lose all of my money on my week then most of it"

It seems silly, First off, the value of your rental isn't some ridiculously high number you make up in your mind, its what the market will pay for it, pricing is elastic it changes minute by minute and depends on hundreds of factors(For me its defined by my personal budget, there is NOTHING i will pay more then $100 a night for, NOTHING)...IF you are only getting what you believe are low ball offers, obviously your asking too much...You guys should feel privileged to even get offered $100 for you week...

Letting you week go to waste because you can't accept the REAL value of your week is stubborn and ignorant...It's the same thing with retail buyers and the thing we fight everyday against here on TUG

I agree with you that the market drives the price of a rental. However, I must disagree with your comment about not paying $100/ night and that these guys should be privileged to get $100/week. We have rented our timeshare in Miami South Beach for $300-$350/night in March when the demand is greater than the supply of rooms in the immediate area. Precise location and precise time can be a great factors in the price of renting of timeshares. If you don't care when you go and don't care about the precise walkable location you can pay much less but those of use who insist on perfect location during the most prime time know those values well.

 

[theo]

How much more beating can a dead horse endure?

I agree wholeheartedly. Different folks can and do have very different attitudes and viewpoints --- as is certainly each individual's prerogative --- but at some point, enough is enough....
:deadhorse:

 

[ronparise]

Wel, sort of. I see it like buying retail at Best Buy vs. buying the same item on ebay or Amazon at a discount. I try to play the lowest of multiple "market" prices. Another way to look at last minute rentals is Like manager's specials at grocery stores. Since the item has an expiration date, the "market" value of the good decays as we approach expiration. Unless the seller is realistic about this, then his perception of what is reasonable will become out of whack with the offers received the closer they get to the expiration date.

I completely agree on the different markets. Ive made money buying on one and selling on another

But the use of the LMF is where we differ...You see the folks that have posted something there as somehow desperate and that we should get real about our pricing ie come down as we get closer to a use it or lose it situation...I see the Last Minute Forum as an opportunity for price gouging...or at least a little increase...after all, anyone looking there must be desperate, they are arriving in a strange town, with no place to stay.....

because of the discount and cancellation policy of the timeshares I own, I like to rent most of my stuff, in the 30 to 60 days period ahead of the reservation..some as close as 15 days out...I dont have to rent this stuff...I can cancel and re group if I dont get it rented....But If I decide to hold it inside that cancellation window, its because Ive decided to take the risk..Im rolling the dice,,,and as long as I have more winners than losers..Im ok And theres always the dumping ground I call RCI..

I have reservations in place for a certain sports event at the end of this month, and another game of some sort early next Feb. I dont understand why it is, but there are some old men, willing to pay an arm and a leg watch young men. run up and down a field or a court. and as it odd as it seems to me they dont want to go if its one group of young men, rather than another: fanatics ...In any case if you rent from me now, the price is I think reasonable...if you wait until the last minute...the price goes up, because I can

 

[AwayWeGo]

When The Horse Is Dead, It Is Advisable To Dismount.

How much more beating can a dead horse endure?

Dead horses can endure anything.

-- hotlinked --​

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ​

 

[Ridewithme38]

I see the Last Minute Forum as an opportunity for price gouging...or at least a little increase...after all, anyone looking there must be desperate, they are arriving in a strange town, with no place to stay.....

I think this is where we differ on things...When i'm looking in the LMR section, i don't have anything planned, i'm looking for something cheap enough that i can build a vacation around...it's my chance to make the lowest possible offer of any other section, because i don't really *need* the rental, but the renter *Needs* to rent it or they will lose everything, basically i'm doing the renter a favor by giving them Anything for it

ETA: Thinking about it a bit more, i think thats how most of the rentals on the LMR section work, if you are 45 days out from your trip, your not going to casually browse the LMR Forum, your going to put up a "Rental Needed Quick" Post and pay the high ball offers put out for you...the LMR Section is for us casual people, who are only looking to travel if its cheap enough

 

[GeraldineT]

I completely agree on the different markets. Ive made money buying on one and selling on another

But the use of the LMF is where we differ...You see the folks that have posted something there as somehow desperate and that we should get real about our pricing ie come down as we get closer to a lose it or lose it situation...I see the Last Minute Forum as an opportunity for price gouging...or at least a little increase...after all, anyone looking there must be desperate, they are arriving in a strange town, with no place to stay.....

because of the discount and cancellation policy of the timeshares I own, I like to rent most of my stuff, in the 30 to 60 days period ahead of the reservation..some as close as 15 days out...I dont have to rent this stuff...I can cancel and re group if I dont get it rented....But If I decide to hold it inside that cancellation window, its because Ive decided to take the risk..Im rolling the dice,,,and as long as I have more winners than losers..Im ok And theres always the dumping ground I call RCI..

I have reservations in place for a certain sports event at the end of this month, and another game of some sort early next Feb. I dont understand why it is, but there are some old men, willing to pay an arm and a leg watch young men. run up and down a field or a court. and as it odd as it seems to me they dont want to go if its one group of young men, rather than another: fanatics ...In any case if you rent from me now, the price is I think reasonable...if you wait until the last minute...the price goes up, because I can

I think the thing with last minute is who is initiating the transaction. If the seller is the price would, IMO be lower. If a buyer is chances are you could get a higher price. Supply and demand. Last minute I need commands a much higher price than excess inventory.

 

[ace2000]

Personally, I've never rented anything from TUG. And I've only posted rental ads a few times.

But, really, what's the deal? I don't see why this is a big deal either way. When a lowball offer is presented, a renter doesn't even have to respond, just let it go and move on. Everyone loves a bargain. You really can blame someone for asking for a lower price. Guess it all comes down to which side your on, for perspective on this one.

I keep saying that the core problem with the timeshare industry is the ever increasing maintenance fees and the fact that the market basically says a timeshare week is not worth more than the fees, hence you have to rent it for a loss.

 

[gandalf252002]

My final post to this thread

As much as this has been a very interesting thread, this will be my last post and I still dislike (not the change being offended) people who offer SIGNIFICANTLY less than the asking price. Negotiation is one thing, I have no issues with and I do not generally pay exactly what a person asks either.

However, in my case, there was a definitive market in place and what the consumer was asking was way below. Having this thread has at least opened my eyes a little, giving a little more insight into how people price things. There is a reason in business they say that setting your price point is one of the most difficult parts.

Hence as a sales transaction, I made my decision, and the buyer his. I have his contact info, if I want the money bad enough I will rent, if I do not I will not and they can do the same.

I do however maintain that I will never feel obligated, lucky, or any other positive feeling like that somebody wants or thinks that I should feel because somebody offers me a peace of cake. I work hard for my money, and if you cannot value that fine, I will move on to somebody else. If another customer does not come along, oh well maybe I will wish I had rented but probably not, as I try not to dwell on the past.

Soapbox off!

 

[SueDonJ]

This reminds me of an article I recently read about how a sense of "justice" is innate to a number of species- monkeys, dogs, and elephants were all mentioned. We've all seen this in dogs- a well-trained dog sees an ill-behaved dog get away with something off limits and the well-trained dog whips his/her head around, looking at the nearest human to step in and do something.

The article described an experiment that was conducted with monkeys, who were trained to a specific task and given a food reward when they completed the task correctly. One group of monkeys got a piece of cucumber for a reward, which they were perfectly happy with. The other group of monkeys were given a grape as a reward for the same task, a reward which monkeys generally strongly prefer. All was well until the first group of monkeys saw the second group of monkeys getting grapes for what they understood was merely a cucumber task. Outrage ensued, including the researchers getting the cucumbers thrown back in their faces.

No one has conducted any similar experiment with elephants, I guess they are too afraid to outrage an elephant!

It is human nature to want a good deal but it is also apparently human (and monkey & dog & elephant) nature to be annoyed by a cucumber when you could have had a grape.

H

I hate bartering whether it's for cars or vacations or flea market stuff. If I respond to an ad that doesn't say some version of "or best offer" then I've already assumed that the price in the ad is the one I'll have to pay. Easy, no surprises, no insults. But I do like the idea of throwing cucumbers at anybody who insults me. :rofl:

 

[AbsolutelyFascinatedByYou]

This discussion actually made me sign up for TUG!

I have so many things to say, but don't have time right now. So I'll just pose this: For those who think it's “offensive” or unfair to offer less than market value for something, what would you do if you saw what you knew was a real Cezanne at a flea market with no price on it? You offer the seller $20 to test the waters, and he/she says okay. Would you then say, “I'm not going to give you $20 for that because that’s not market value; let me give you $250 million instead?” (Yes, one just sold for that.)

Here's what I think I would probably do. I would definitely pay the $20 and run, but after I sold it I would probably track the original seller down and give them at least $25,000 or something. (And if I sold it for $250 million I would probably give them at least a million or two.)

And I don't think any of the offendees have answered the earlier question someone posed about whether they are more offended to get low offers than no offers.

 

[e.bram]

Vacationhopefull:
Judging by your LMR posts' responces , you would be better getting taking someLowbals.

 

[Beefnot]

I do however maintain that I will never feel obligated, lucky, or any other positive feeling like that somebody wants or thinks that I should feel because somebody offers me a peace of cake. I work hard for my money, and if you cannot value that fine, I will move on to somebody else. If another customer does not come along, oh well maybe I will wish I had rented but probably not, as I try not to dwell on the past.

Soapbox off!

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it

 

[vacationhopeful]

Vacationhopefull:
Judging by your LMR posts' responces , you would be better getting taking someLowbals.

You better learn the business before offering advice. This is NOT the only advertising site on the internet.

 

[markel]

You better learn the business before offering advice. This is NOT the only advertising site on the internet.

You are correct. TUG is one of MANY advertising sites which means more competition. I have obtained rentals for in-season ski and beach weeks and have always gotten a great deal. In fact, we have stayed at the "Taj Mahal" (as we like to refer to it), a huge house with all of the trimmings for a NY ski vacation several times. Asking price. $1200 per night (vrbo, cyber rentals, etc.) I negotiated with the owner for $450 per night. Gotta love lowballing !!

 

[ace2000]

You are correct. TUG is one of MANY advertising sites which means more competition. I have obtained rentals for in-season ski and beach weeks and have always gotten a great deal. In fact, we have stayed at the "Taj Mahal" (as we like to refer to it), a huge house with all of the trimmings for a NY ski vacation several times. Asking price. $1200 per night (vrbo, cyber rentals, etc.) I negotiated with the owner for $450 per night. Gotta love lowballing !!

Wait a minute... you're not fessing up to being one of dem dirty, rotten lowballers, are you?

 

[markel]

Wait a minute... you're not fessing up to being one of dem dirty, rotten lowballers, are you?

Guilty as charged.

 

[e.bram]

At this date anyone interested in Ft. Lauderdale for 3/2 would be a local, who would probably not be wanting an inland(non ocean front TS and unit), no matter where it is advertised, unless it was an absolute steal(lowball).

 

[Pmuppet]

My experience is people are generally irrational

It is pretty darn easy to price out what a timeshares should sell for. We have all the variables easily calculated to truly assess the true market price. Marginal revenue i simply the rental amount deducting you maintenance fees, marketing fees, and hourly rate you charge to list the item.

The required rate of return is the amount of interest you require to make the investment attractive. I recommend at least 15% or .15 as timeshares have a lot of risk...ie assessments, property structure depreciates every year, etc.

The financial formula to price out an asset that with infinite cash flows is as this is a deeded annual timeshare:

Marginal revenue/required rate of return

So, if you can rent out the timeshare for $1,500 and MF fees are $800, and marketing fees were $100, misc fees $100, and wage was $200 (say your wage rate was $25/ hour and you spend 8 hours marketing and securing a renter). Your marginal revenue would be $300.

So, the question is how much should you pay for this timeshare. The answer is you would be willing to spend $2,000 today to get indifinite annual cash flows of $300 each and every year.

$300/.15= $2,000

Problem is arent rational. I would like another timeshare in whistler for week 52 and i have been looking for five years. I wont pay more than the financial model i described. Since i can rent a one bedroom in whistler that week for $1,000 and the MF's are $800/ year and my ROI is 15%, i offer $1,333 for the week.

($1,000-$800)/.15=$1,333

People think this is a lowball offer, but it is just basic fiscal analysis. It is clear that in my case i am better off renting at this time. Things undoubtedly will change at some point, but until then, i think the renting side is the one to be on.