Looking for someone to do an exchange availability experiment: Does having trust points really get you more options?

[Carolyn K]

We currently are Marriott vacation club owners at the Presidential level. We got there with three enrolled weeks. A Two bedroom Ocean Point Platinum Week we bought directly from Marriott years ago, a Three bedroom Ocean Point Platinum week we bought on the resale market, and a Two bedroom silver season in Marbella Spain in a special deal that allowed us to enroll our three bedroom week. Just came back from a presentation where they said that we aren't seeing all of the available points inventory because our points are all enrolled points and we have no trust points. I always thought a point was a point was a point. It would be interesting to do an experiment with someone with similar levels of points, but with trust points mixed in and see what type of things we can pull. If anyone is interested in doing this, let me know and we can pick a time and try for different hard to get resorts and see what types of things that pull with trust points in the mix versus no trust points.

 

[Dean]

We currently are Marriott vacation club owners at the Presidential level. We got there with three enrolled weeks. A Two bedroom Ocean Point Platinum Week we bought directly from Marriott years ago, a Three bedroom Ocean Point Platinum week we bought on the resale market, and a Two bedroom silver season in Marbella Spain in a special deal that allowed us to enroll our three bedroom week. Just came back from a presentation where they said that we aren't seeing all of the available points inventory because our points are all enrolled points and we have no trust points. I always thought a point was a point was a point. It would be interesting to do an experiment with someone with similar levels of points, but with trust points mixed in and see what type of things we can pull. If anyone is interested in doing this, let me know and we can pick a time and try for different hard to get resorts and see what types of things that pull with trust points in the mix versus no trust points.

While there is the remote possibility this will happen, the reality is this isn't feasible. It's just a sales ploy to try to get you to buy more points. It's been reported many times over the years. don't worry about it and if you need more points, there are better ways to get them than buying Trust Points retail.

 

[Carolyn K]

Dean, that was my feeling. But I keep hearing this from the sales people I thought I wonder if there is any truth to it.

 

[Dean]

Dean, that was my feeling. But I keep hearing this from the sales people I thought I wonder if there is any truth to it.

The only way it could happen would be if a property was only in the trust and no trust owners selected options from those who had elected from their weeks OR no enrolled owners elected points. If this were very common it will kill the entire system anyway. I have seen a couple of examples where there was a difference but it was early on and I haven't seen any such examples in a number of years. You can rest assured you aren't missing anything due to not having Trust points in your MVC account.

 

[bnoble]

And if you are missing a few odds and ends, so what? The only thing that matters is that you have enough good options. At some point, more is not better, it is just more.

 

[DanCali]

We currently are Marriott vacation club owners at the Presidential level. We got there with three enrolled weeks. A Two bedroom Ocean Point Platinum Week we bought directly from Marriott years ago, a Three bedroom Ocean Point Platinum week we bought on the resale market, and a Two bedroom silver season in Marbella Spain in a special deal that allowed us to enroll our three bedroom week. Just came back from a presentation where they said that we aren't seeing all of the available points inventory because our points are all enrolled points and we have no trust points. I always thought a point was a point was a point. It would be interesting to do an experiment with someone with similar levels of points, but with trust points mixed in and see what type of things we can pull. If anyone is interested in doing this, let me know and we can pick a time and try for different hard to get resorts and see what types of things that pull with trust points in the mix versus no trust points.

Here are some samples of that sales pitch being peddled my MVC salespeople over the years. FOMO is a great motivator...

Enjoy the read!

2022: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/is-it-worth-it-to-buy-into-the-trust-points.338150/

2021: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/trust-dp-versus-exchange-legacy-points-in-the-destination-club.319886/

2017: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/enrolled-versus-trust-inventory-availability.259184/

2015: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/ko-olina-sales-presentation.225293/

2013: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/canyon-villas-presentation-points-question.201739/

 

[Jim Mc]

Play the BS card!!! If you deposit your enrolled week, be a deeded week purchased from Marriott or on one from the secondary market, the points are all the same. Once deposited they will show on different lines.

 

[Carolyn K]

Thats what I thought. I can't see how they can differentiate the points at all.

 

[wuv pooh]

Thats what I thought. I can't see how they can differentiate the points at all.

They do differentiate points legally and there is a difference, but Marriott works hard to make it seamless for the owners. As Dean said, I have experienced a few situations where I could book a reservation with trust points but the system would not let me change them to enrolled points. This was primarily 12, 13 month reservations in the early years like 2011, 2012. I assume they had some issues getting the correct inventory when getting started. I have not run into anything for many years, so I assume the issue is moot now and they are are able to make it seamless as planned.

Conceivably they could have a similar issue with new trust only properties, but since they have not built any in so long I don't think it is a relevant concern.

 

[Jim Mc]

Explain what you mean by "trust" points and "enrolled" points. I have many deeded weeks that I enrolled, both purchased from Marriott and from the secondary market, I also have 4500 destination points. When ever I book a resort I first book it THEN chose which points I want to use. I guess I don't understand your issue here.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Rather than forcing us to prove it, perhaps the sales team needs to prove it. Unbelievable.

 

[DanCali]

Explain what you mean by "trust" points and "enrolled" points. I have many deeded weeks that I enrolled, both purchased from Marriott and from the secondary market, I also have 4500 destination points. When ever I book a resort I first book it THEN chose which points I want to use. I guess I don't understand your issue here.

The issue is that, since 2010, some salespeople have been pitching the idea that Destination Points can "see" inventory that Elected Points (from enrolled weeks) cannot.

The general idea behind this is that there is "Trust inventory" and "Exchange inventory". The Destination Points can allegedly access both (the Trust inventory is their "home resort") while Elected points can only access the Exchange inventory (and their own home resort prior to electing points). Trust inventory has to be "moved" to the Exchange (presumably when someone who owns DC points makes an exchange) for it to be visible to Elected weeks owners. I guess an analogy would be how you only have access to Disney inventory in II but not as a home resort. There is some information in the Marriott Abound sticky on this topic and it states that practically the inventory is managed such that there appears to be very little difference.

That's not stopping them from uses this as a sales pitch, and they now have thousands of new Vistana owners to try it on as well.

 

[Jim Mc]

As you can see I have both trust points and enrolled points at my disposal for 2024. I first look for a resort that has availability, then I choose what points to use. MVC doesn't know if I am going to use trust or enrolled points for the transaction until after I have chosen the resort. There is something I am still missing here possibly?

 

[DanCali]

As you can see I have both trust points and enrolled points at my disposal for 2024. I first look for a resort that has availability, then I choose what points to use. MVC doesn't know if I am going to use trust or enrolled points for the transaction until after I have chosen the resort. There is something I am still missing here possibly?

Not that it necessarily works the way salespeople describe but if it did then, in theory, you would only be able to apply only Trust points to some of the reservations which see that "home resort" Trust inventory. After you pick the resort/unit, you are indeed asked to select/apply the type of points you intend to use. That webpage has an "Apply Your Points" portion but also an "Ineligible Points" section. So, if it worked the way they suggest, and you chose Trust inventory rather than Exchange inventory, you may see your elected points as "Ineligible" for that particular reservation possibly with a corresponding explanation. Someone without Trust points at all, or insufficient Trust points, would not even be able to select that reservation for booking and it would show as unavailable.

I'm just addressing your question on how it might work given the sequence of the reservation process, not suggesting that's how it actually works... In fact, given that you have both types of points and you've not seen this happen to you before, it only strengthens the prevailing tug consensus that this is a nothingburger intended to cause fear of missing out.

 

[Jim Mc]

Ok, I see what you mean. If the sales people were not lying through their teeth, and this is how it would work, then you are correct. I have not seen this happen except points that were in the "holding" account. I will definitely be looking for this in the future.

Jim Mc

 

[rthib]

@DanCall - what a sales rep would say is that your purchase of trust points “cured” all your points and that they are now magically better.
So that is why you see everything even after you have used your trust points since they made your enrolled points better.
That is the line they are selling.

 

[DanCali]

@DanCall - what a sales rep would say is that your purchase of trust points “cured” all your points and that they are now magically better.
So that is why you see everything even after you have used your trust points since they made your enrolled points better.
That is the line they are selling.

I have seen that too reported on tug multiple times.

It hasn't been my personal experience though - we were just offered to "buy Trust points to book Trust-only inventory," with the analogy of home resort vs. exchange inventory. I would find that particular approach probably more credible than the "magical curing" nonsense.

 

[Dean]

Explain what you mean by "trust" points and "enrolled" points. I have many deeded weeks that I enrolled, both purchased from Marriott and from the secondary market, I also have 4500 destination points. When ever I book a resort I first book it THEN chose which points I want to use. I guess I don't understand your issue here.

It is conceivable there would be situations where only Trust points could book a given option and there have been examples where that was the case though early on, but with any volume to speak of it's simply not feasible. And from what I have seen over the years, I suspect they have made IT adjustments to make it not applicable at all. There are technical distinctions and in reality they could completely do away with the enrollment/election process and run them independently if they wanted. Realize that this is simply an internal exchange and not a contractually guaranteed system.

 

[daviator]

So I have NO trust points. I only have elected points from one of my Vistana ownerships. I used some of those to book several nights at the Washington DC Pulse property, which (somebody correct me if I’m wrong) is 100% trust-owned, I don’t believe there are any weeks owners there.

If what sales was saying is true, I should not have been able to see any inventory there as it’s all Trust inventory. Yet I was easily able to find and book what I wanted with my elected points.

They have tried to use that story on me multiple times and it’s getting old. I wish they’d be honest. Overall it’s a great program with great properties, I feel like they’d sell more if they were honest and people could trust them.

 

[DanCali]

So I have NO trust points. I only have elected points from one of my Vistana ownerships. I used some of those to book several nights at the Washington DC Pulse property, which (somebody correct me if I’m wrong) is 100% trust-owned, I don’t believe there are any weeks owners there.

If what sales was saying is true, I should not have been able to see any inventory there as it’s all Trust inventory. Yet I was easily able to find and book what I wanted with my elected points.

They have tried to use that story on me multiple times and it’s getting old. I wish they’d be honest. Overall it’s a great program with great properties, I feel like they’d sell more if they were honest and people could trust them.

I am following what you are saying and believe there is a counter argument to it that would not necessarily contradict the sales story.

What you are saying can be true at the beginning of some time period - say 3 years out into the future (nobody can book that far out anyway). As reservation windows open, if no Trust point owner makes exchanges in Abound, then only Trust point owners could book the DC Pulse. But as reservation windows open and Trust point owners make exchanges with elected weeks (remember that weeks owners can elect points 2 years in advance), "Trust inventory" would get deposited into the Abound Exchange. That "Trust inventory" includes many resorts and would also include the DC Pulse property. At that point, Elected week owners can also book Pulse DC. However, Trust point would have access to all the Pulse inventory while Elected points owners would see only what is in Abound.

Another way to put it is that weeks owners can already elect 2025 points and surrender 2025 usage. Once Trust point owners start booking those elected weeks 13 months in advance, in late 2023, some Trust inventory (whatever that may include and however it's prorated/selected by MVC to be dumped into the Exchange) would become available for Elected points owners to book as well.

It seems that Marriott is allowed to and does move around inventory based on "anticipated" exchanges, so these scenarios are probably even less meaningful.

 

[Dean]

If what sales was saying is true, I should not have been able to see any inventory there as it’s all Trust inventory. Yet I was easily able to find and book what I wanted with my elected points.

That is not correct as once a trust owners crosses over to select the first enrolled option, that volume of points is available to any enrolled owner who does not own trust points. And since there is no home resort for the trust, even a new resort only in the trust is going to be available in that situation.

 

[daviator]

I am following what you are saying and believe there is a counter argument to it that would not necessarily contradict the sales story.

What you are saying can be true at the beginning of some time period - say 3 years out into the future (nobody can book that far out anyway). As reservation windows open, if no Trust point owner makes exchanges in Abound, then only Trust point owners could book the DC Pulse. But as reservation windows open and Trust point owners make exchanges with elected weeks (remember that weeks owners can elect points 2 years in advance), "Trust inventory" would get deposited into the Abound Exchange. That "Trust inventory" includes many resorts and would also include the DC Pulse property. At that point, Elected week owners can also book Pulse DC. However, Trust point would have access to all the Pulse inventory while Elected points owners would see only what is in Abound.

Another way to put it is that weeks owners can already elect 2025 points and surrender 2025 usage. Once Trust point owners start booking those elected weeks 13 months in advance, in late 2023, some Trust inventory (whatever that may include and however it's prorated/selected by MVC to be dumped into the Exchange) would become available for Elected points owners to book as well.

It seems that Marriott is allowed to and does move around inventory based on "anticipated" exchanges, so these scenarios are probably even less meaningful.

Thank you both. I stand corrected, I have bonked myself on the side of the head and now I get it.

But I think the point everyone is making is that, in practice, there seems to be only one pool in which everyone swims. Whatever MVC does behind the scenes to manage inventory, owners of only exchange points do not seem to play in a different inventory pool than trust point owners. At least that is what I have repeatedly read. Please correct me if I've misunderstood that.

 

[MikeM132]

While there is the remote possibility this will happen, the reality is this isn't feasible. It's just a sales ploy to try to get you to buy more points. It's been reported many times over the years. don't worry about it and if you need more points, there are better ways to get them than buying Trust Points retail.

Dean,
We have many lively discussions on all this at Ocean Pointe right now. I'm s suspicious guy and wondered whether Trust (or DC) points could ever be devalued as Bonvoy points have over the years. I'm guessing they couldn't legally "print points" if they run low on points to sell but may be able to adjust points required to stay based on demand. I'm not sold at all on the benefit of points (other than the flexibility) and am staying in weeks. Many here feel the same as many split their unit to double their stay here which is prohibitive with points.

 

[Dean]

Dean,
We have many lively discussions on all this at Ocean Pointe right now. I'm s suspicious guy and wondered whether Trust (or DC) points could ever be devalued as Bonvoy points have over the years. I'm guessing they couldn't legally "print points" if they run low on points to sell but may be able to adjust points required to stay based on demand. I'm not sold at all on the benefit of points (other than the flexibility) and am staying in weeks. Many here feel the same as many split their unit to double their stay here which is prohibitive with points.

Curious as to who the we are, those around the pool, discussing with the sales team?

The way I look at timeshares is they can do about anything and the best I can hope for is to not lose out too much over the years. I often get amused when people quote the docs and talk about what they can't do. They can't change the points overall for a given resort but they can adjust them such that the change may hurt you or I. A common way timeshares approach this is to create resorts with higher points costs so you need more points to stay. One thing I've seen at HHI is they have structured the points such that Sat to Sat for the highest demand week is quite a bit more than the weekly charge listed by manipulating the points for that week compared to the weeks around it.

Personally I'm suspicious of everything and to a degree, everyone, but I feel that to participate in timeshares in general one needs an element of trust in the system. The flexibility IS the main benefit of any points system IMO and it does come with costs, some obvious and some less so. For MVC it includes the skim, club dues and higher fees for the Trust side compared to the better weeks at most resorts. For me personally I have weeks I use, weeks I exchange and weeks for points and I use them to complement each other. There is an economy of scale though. I don't just want to go to the same resort all the time though we do have one resort we visit most years as a large group. Plus I'm often going for more than 1 week but less than 2. For example we'll be in Aruba coming up for 11 nights. Our last HI trip was 3 weeks and 15 people initially reserved completely with owned weeks and points and the end result was almost all with exchanges plus one week on points. For me personally to stay at OP would be better using points or on exchange than owning there but that's related to our travel choices.

For timeshare on one size fits all which is why when someone asks what's best for them we need context like where they want to go, how well they can plan, budget, unit size needed and the like.

 

[DanCali]

I'm not sold at all on the benefit of points (other than the flexibility) and am staying in weeks. Many here feel the same as many split their unit to double their stay here which is prohibitive with points.

At other systems (e.g., Vistana) the total points required to book all the weeks in a season is exactly what owners would get if they all exchanged for points, so there is no "skim". MVC has a 5%-7% skim, meaning that owners would get that amount fewer points that is required to book all the weeks in their season. While they might change the points required to book some weeks in the season upward, I believe that would get offset by reducing the points required for other weeks in the same season. I doubt the total skim percentage would increase, although I suppose it's possible since it's not really specified anywhere but it hasn't been done.

Moreover, at other systems (e.g. Vistana), the points required to book a 1BR + studio equal the points required to book a 2BR. Therefore, combined with "no skim", owners can book exchanges (or their actual ownership) with weeks or points and not lose out. At MVC it's priced more like hotels, with the points required to book a 1BR + studio being greater than the points required to book a 2BR. As you mentioned, this doesn't matter at your home resort which you can as "weeks" but getting 2 weeks for 1 with like-for-like exchanges is not possible after account for "skim" and also the loss due to locking off.

The benefit is DC points is indeed just more flexibility. It is an exchange system you can use to do other things with your ownership. They are not intended to use to book at your home resort, although you can sometimes rebook a week in your season with points and end up ahead. Before we joined the points system with our pre-2010 weeks we used our weeks or rented them out. We even continued doing that for a few years until we enrolled. Once enrolling, that changed the way we vacation even as we continued using our weeks in the same way because it opened up the ability to transfer points from others. So then, instead of renting extra 7-day vacations on RedWeek we could transfer points and book what we wanted, when we wanted, for as long as we wanted (subject to availability). Our first actual DC exchange was trading our 2BR home resort to Waiohai - we could only get 5 nights IV instead of 7, but the convenience and certainty over an II exchange made it feel like it was worth it. And I didn't really feel we were getting gypped trading 7 nights on the mainland for 5 nights in Hawaii (although more power to those who trade studios for 2BRs at Waiohai). On that same trip, we used our Vistana ownership to add a few more night at the Westin Princeville Villas. For someone who doesn't own on Kauai, that is a lot of flexibility to have...