I got rid of mine.

[DeniseM]

Not a legal Deed, unless i've accepted it....But, i'm not saying i'd say no to that....You've got a lot of Great ownerships!!

EXACTLY MY POINT - but neither is transferring a deed to an LLC for the purpose of defaulting on your contractual obligation.

 

[Ridewithme38]

EXACTLY MY POINT - but neither is transferring a deed to an LLC for the purpose of defaulting on your contractual obligation.

Who brought that up? How do you know the purpose of Anyone for transferring their deed? A legally transferred deed is a legally transferred deed, i don't think the USA is up to the point of 'thought crimes' yet...and to assume you know the reason someone transferred their deed definitely borders on that level

In the end, as long as the deed is legal, valid and recorded, it doesn't matter if the TS accepts the membership transfer or not...Your still out of the woods, so to speak

 

[vckempson]

I gotta admit I agree with Ride. If you entered into a contract with a PPC and paid them a fee to take the TS off your hands and a proper deed is filed, it's a done deal. Unless you are complicit in the deal with the intent to defraud, which means knowledge and intent, then you're off the hook. The resort can blow in the wind from now till the sun don't shine, but they can't enforce the MF obligation on you any more. They can try, but it won't fly.

The ONLY instrument evidencing LEGAL ownership and it's accompanying obligations is the deed. That is or course unless you sign something else with the HOA to the contrary.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Unless you are complicit in the deal with the intent to defraud, which means knowledge and intent, then you're off the hook.

Very hard thing to prove, next to impossible...I can't think of a single BOD/POA/HOA that would bother to waste their money trying to prove that, heck if they can afford to fight that case in court....they need to rethink their MF's

 

[DeniseM]

But there are already BOD's that are refusing to accept deeds or charging a high fee to record them if they are from a known "Viking Ship" scammer - just because you don't know of any, doesn't mean it isn't already happening.

It isn't difficult to prove at all - when you suddenly get a large number of deeds recorded with an LLC and they are go into default on the MF, it's painfully obvious.

 

[TUGBrian]

Its easy to tell someone something when the repercussions of you being wrong dont impact you.

its a fact that resorts have, and do refuse the transfer of ownership to certain entities.

the county recorders office isnt going to send you a bill, but the resort most certainly still will.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Very hard thing to prove, next to impossible...I can't think of a single BOD/POA/HOA that would bother to waste their money trying to prove that, heck if they can afford to fight that case in court....they need to rethink their MF's

But there are already BOD's that are refusing to accept deeds or charging a high fee to record them if they are from a known "Viking Ship" scammer - just because you don't know of any, doesn't mean it isn't already happening.

It isn't difficult to prove at all - when you suddenly get a large number of deeds recorded with an LLC and they are go into default on the MF, it's painfully obvious.

Proving that the previous owner had malicious intent, intent to defraud is what i spoke about in the previous post, THAT is next to impossible to prove....It doesn't matter if the resort doesn't accept the new owners membership, if they don't accept them because they are an LLC, a rental agency, they are Chinese or are to large to fly...as long as the deed is legal, they can't come after you for MF's during a time with which you don't own the Deed

 

[Ridewithme38]

Its easy to tell someone something when the repercussions of you being wrong dont impact you.

its a fact that resorts have, and do refuse the transfer of ownership to certain entities.

the county recorders office isnt going to send you a bill, but the resort most certainly still will.

Yes, they MAY send you a bill, but unless you are the deeded owner, you are not responsible for payment of that bill, its a simple matter really....My mechanic could send the bill for my oil change to the previous owner, but, really, they aren't any more responsible for it then the previous owner of a house is for home heating oil, or the person that owned my TS before me for the MF's

 

[vckempson]

Its easy to tell someone something when the repercussions of you being wrong dont impact you.

its a fact that resorts have, and do refuse the transfer of ownership to certain entities.

the county recorders office isnt going to send you a bill, but the resort most certainly still will.

Just because the resort won't accept it doesn't make it an invalid deed transfer. If my township refuses to accept a valid deed transfer out of my name to a new owner, that doesn't mean I'm still responsible for the taxes. I'm legally out the picture the moment the valid deed is filed and recorded.

The one thing that leaves me puzzled is that I think the contractual relationship with the HOA for a timeshare might somehow be separate and distinct from the deed. So there may be another angle to this that negates impact of the deed transfer.

 

[TUGBrian]

could you cite the law, or other fact you have to prove your claims?

or is this another one of those "well thats just how it should be, so im going to tell people thats how it is" situations?


I certainly dont think owners can simply print out "ridewithme38's post on TUG" and hand it over to their resort when the maint fee bill comes.

 

[Ridewithme38]

I certainly dont think owners can simply print out "ridewithme38's post on TUG" and hand it over to their resort when the maint fee bill comes.

They could just print out the deed though....

 

[TUGBrian]

Im assuming since you are so adamant about this, that you have done it successfully. Can you fill us in with the details on the resort in question that you deeded your week to and they refused the transfer, yet you got them to go away by showing the deed was recorded into a bogus LLC?

I think everyone would really be interested to hear your side of the story with facts to back it up.

or is this all just your opinion on how it "should" work, should it happen to other owners?

 

[Ridewithme38]

how it "should" work, should it happen to other owners?

Yes, this is how it should work, like Gravity should keep me from floating out to space or that 2 Plus 2 equals four....Oh wait, that IS how those things work, not just how they Should work....Just like with what i've been saying about a legally recorded deed.... :hysterical:

 

[DeniseM]

Yes, this is how it should work,

Ride - One thing that I admire about you is that you never let the facts get in your way!

 

[timeos2]

Having dealt with a total of four transfers of ownerships with first Fairfield & then Wyndham I can tell you from first hand experience that they DO refuse to accept recorded deeds they detirmine to be "flawed" in any number of ways. That doesn't stop them from billing whoever they deem to be the owner but they block any use until it is corrected. Right or not you have no choice but to deal on their terms or undertake an expensive and uncertain legal suit. Few if any will do that as it is cost prohibitive & they know it.

 

[SeniorDirector]

You are correct, the transfer isn't complete, but it's not because the deed isn't legal or accepted, its because the TS company has to transfer the Contract over to a new owner....the Deed is legal as soon as it is signed and completed as soon as it is recorded with the county

I want to second this statement. My background is as a commercial real estate broker and investor and one of the directors of an NPO that accepts timeshare donations for a fee.

The issue here is a separation of ownership and right of use. The deed transfer is legal as long as the TWO parties (seller and buyer) are in acceptance of it. If one party does a deed transfer (usually called a Quit Claim) and the other party contests it, the deed can be reversed. We had to do this once. The recording is to legitimize and provide public notice of the ownership transfer. It is not subject to affirmation by the resort.

However, the USE of it is subject to the resort. All past debt is due from the seller, not the buyer, unless it was so stated in a purchase agreement. However, if actual use is denied based on overdue bills, that action is enforceable by the resort. If taken to court the decision would be that the resort is due its money, the seller is responsible for paying and once the resort is paid (from any source) the use must be given to the current owner based on current HOA bylaws.

If the resort refused to acknowledge the deed and new ownership and refused to provide the information requested on any due bill, an attorney could easily write a letter stating the above and get an answer. What you're dealing with is an uninformed office person in the resort. On top of that, that person seems more concerned with who is paying than getting paid. Work your way up the chain until you get a reasonable person to deal with.

 

[wawacito]

This debate of deed vs resort is interesting and I would someday like to hear which side is true.

However ... back to TimeshareRefuge.org (which remember is the main topic of the OP)

In dealing with TimeshareRefuge.org - I do not believe the deed is going over into an LLC of any sort. Username "travelwizard1971" and "theNoob" both indicate that there is a PERSON listed as the grantee not an LLC. (see "timeshare transfer" thread in "buying, selling, renting" section and "helping my parents" thread in the "newbies help" section). "TheNoob"s buyer/grantee is located somewhere in Arkansas. TimeshareRefuge.org is located in Missouri. Sumday Vacations (which seems to be buying the timeshares from TimeshareRefuge and selling them on ebay) is also located in Missouri.

@asnooper - the grantee listed on your deed - was it a person or a company? It would be interesting to see if they are three different people or all the same person.

In the case of "travelwizard1971" and "asnooper" both have received confirmations that the deed was recorded.

"Theo" points out (in one of those threads mentioned above) that the PERSON may actually be in cahoots with TimeshareRefuge and may quickly do a quitclaim deed into a VikingShip LLC. Whether that happens or not could probably be tracked down for "asnooper"s case since he posted his deed on this thread. Could anybody do this for us? or perhaps tell me how to do it so I could check it myself?

So far, none of the three users has reported confirmation from the resort.

 

[ampaholic]

Exact point in time

Before I retired form the Real Estate business - For closings, I always worked with the title company that provided the title insurance when transferring the real estate from one person to another.

The title company had a nice touch when the deed was recorded and the funds were released from escrow - they would include a Payday candy bar with the check for my fees.

No recording = no funds = no Payday .... simple really.

In Washington state and most other state not among the original 13 - the exact moment of title transfer from one person to another is the moment the County Recorder stamps the deed symbolizing the recording of the deed into the public records.

And Brian - the law that covers this in Washington is RCW 65.08.070
"Real property conveyances to be recorded."

 

[TUGBrian]

ok, back to the original case in point...if the resort doesnt recognize the deed transfer...and puts you on the hook for all fees....you have paid the LLC to do nothing on your behalf.

you could accomplish putting yourself in the same situation if you simply stop paying your maint fees (and save the fee to whoever.com).

if we have established that the resort is going to go after the original owner if you do wind up deeding into an LLC and abandoning it....youll still be turned over to collections...youll still be on the hook for the fees correct?

so now all we are arguging about is if the resort/hoa will actually go thru the trouble of coming after you....if you are betting the resort/hoa wont...then id think it would be much cheaper to stop paying your fees no?

 

[vckempson]

so now all we are arguging about is if the resort/hoa will actually go thru the trouble of coming after you....if you are betting the resort/hoa wont...then id think it would be much cheaper to stop paying your fees no?

No that's not what we're arguing about. We're arguing about whether they have a VALID and LEGAL right to collect that money from you. If they don't then you have a right to dispute it. And you don't have to hire lawyer or go to court to do that.

 

[timeos2]

No that's not what we're arguing about. We're arguing about whether they have a VALID and LEGAL right to collect that money from you. If they don't then you have a right to dispute it. And you don't have to hire lawyer or go to court to do that.

Of course they do. You are the last owner of revord. It's not up to them to prove there is a new responsible owner - it's your burden to prove it (and at yout cost/time). Having any group that has a history of not paying isn't likely to stand as a valid transfer. Until you provide proof they are new, paying owners the resort has every right to go after the existing one - YOU. It will cost you to fight it and you'd likely lose.

But risk it & your money if you want to test the system.

 

[bogey21]

Interesting discussion. Seems to me that the issue of MFs may be separate from ownership and may depend on whether or not there is a written agreement between original owner and TS Company. If there is no written agreement, or if there is an agreement and it doesn't adequately address succession, TS company may be limited to denying usage until MFs are paid but may not be able to compel the owner who transferred his week, without knowing complicty in a fraud, to pay the MFs.

Just a thought.

George

 

[timeos2]

Most if not all timeshare/condo deeds tie ownership to being a member of the HOA snd to all rules, regs & fees they impose. It's automatic.

 

[bogey21]

Most if not all timeshare/condo deeds tie ownership to being a member of the HOA and to all rules, regs & fees they impose. It's automatic.

If that is the case, and I don't argue that it isn't, maybe someone should pull out and read the original deed for the Week and all the documents it incorporates before pontificating. That way we would be dealing with facts rather than conjecture.

George

 

[wawacito]

I have confirmation from two out of the three people who are currently working with TimeshareRefuge that the grantee on their deed is NOT an LLC - it is a PERSON - and those two people are DIFFERENT people - one lives in the midwest and one is from the pacific southwest.

Now what we really need is confirmation from one of the three that the resort has recognized the transfer and the new owner on the deed.