I got rid of mine.

[timeos2]

If that is the case, and I don't argue that it isn't, maybe someone should pull out and read the original deed for the Week and all the documents it incorporates before pontificating. That way we would be dealing with facts rather than conjecture.

George

Having read a number of both condo & timeshare declarations & deeds it is indeed a fact. The very creation of a shared type community/Association is predicated on the fact that each owner will be part of the HOA / Association and has no option to decide they want to opt out except by legal transfer to a new owner.

If your resort/condo/home is in a HOA development you MUST be part of the Association as it is a part of the deed.

 

[ampaholic]

Of course they do. You are the last owner of revord. It's not up to them to prove there is a new responsible owner - it's your burden to prove it (and at yout cost/time). Having any group that has a history of not paying isn't likely to stand as a valid transfer. Until you provide proof they are new, paying owners the resort has every right to go after the existing one - YOU. It will cost you to fight it and you'd likely lose.

But risk it & your money if you want to test the system.

I have twice been involved in court cases where a party is suing a past owner of a property for non performance (re: an easement) and the current owner (my client) was also suing the previous owner for non disclosure (of the easement).

On one occasion the judge ordered the easement to be recorded as an amendment to the deed and ordered the previous owner to perform (pay for roadwork). In the other case the judge dismissed the whole thing because the claimant waited too long (five years) to file.

Court can be unpredictable - but it is never uncertain. :hysterical:

 

[e.bram]

Let's look the situation.
The HOa refuses to accept the new owner transfer. They are commiting a tortuous interference of a contract(a common law tort). If the MF as current and they deny the new owner use they would be liable. If the new owner sues for recision of sale the old owner has a claim against the HOS for the above mentioned tort. If the HOA sues the old owner for the MFs he has a defense and counterclaim(above metioned tort). If they don't then the old owner got rid of his MFs.
If the HOA maligns the new owner claiming anticipatory breach they are guilt of the common law tort of slander.
THe HOA has to charge the same transfer fee for all owner transfers unless they can prove the grantee has committed fraud or is a felon or a mafiaso. That is not easy considering the amount of money involved.
In all these cases the pro se litigant has an advantage considering the amount of money lawyers charge and the value of the case.
ps. I think Ride could kick the ass of any lawyer who take a case as above.
Ride: Look into taking a paralegal course ina local community college. You would do great. I think Denise is wrong in her evaluation of you. I think you could shut her down in any legal action.
pps. I once threatened Wyndham(Fairfield at the time)with legal action(I live in NJ where their HQ. is.a got what I wanted. They folded like a cheap camera.

 

[csxjohn]

Wow

The poor OP is just waiting for the resort to transer ownership to the new deed holder and many of you have him possibly conspiring to commit fraud, knowingly transfering to a bogus llc, putting his deed in a viking ship, still having to pay MFs on the property and a number of other things.

At first it was questioned wether or not he was a shill for the company he paid to get rid of his timeshare. He is not following that pattern and I don't think he is.

He's just telling us who he used. I hope it ends well for him but I still won't think that paying up front is the way to go.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Having read a number of both condo & timeshare declarations & deeds it is indeed a fact. The very creation of a shared type community/Association is predicated on the fact that each owner will be part of the HOA / Association and has no option to decide they want to opt out except by legal transfer to a new owner.

If your resort/condo/home is in a HOA development you MUST be part of the Association as it is a part of the deed.

Sounds like the HOA would be in violation of the contract if they denied Association membership to an owner! It wouldn't be the first time an HOA has openly broken laws or contracts though...Sorta like how they approve deedbacks for some people and not others is also in violation

 

[dundey]

One of the timeshares I own will accept deedbacks - if the owner pays 3 years of m/f's in advance.
Wonder where they got that number!

There is really little the HOA can do once the deed is transferred. There is just no way they would foreclose AND go after the original owner from a legal fee standpoint.

 

[Bwolf]

This is a very nice thread--at least the part suggesting that transferring a timeshare for less than 3 years maintenance fees is possible.

But some of the discussion seems to suggest some people have undertaken transfers without an estoppel letter. So I wonder why?

 

[asnooper]

This debate of deed vs resort is interesting and I would someday like to hear which side is true.

However ... back to TimeshareRefuge.org (which remember is the main topic of the OP)

In dealing with TimeshareRefuge.org - I do not believe the deed is going over into an LLC of any sort. Username "travelwizard1971" and "theNoob" both indicate that there is a PERSON listed as the grantee not an LLC. (see "timeshare transfer" thread in "buying, selling, renting" section and "helping my parents" thread in the "newbies help" section). "TheNoob"s buyer/grantee is located somewhere in Arkansas. TimeshareRefuge.org is located in Missouri. Sumday Vacations (which seems to be buying the timeshares from TimeshareRefuge and selling them on ebay) is also located in Missouri.

@asnooper - the grantee listed on your deed - was it a person or a company? It would be interesting to see if they are three different people or all the same person.

In the case of "travelwizard1971" and "asnooper" both have received confirmations that the deed was recorded.

"Theo" points out (in one of those threads mentioned above) that the PERSON may actually be in cahoots with TimeshareRefuge and may quickly do a quitclaim deed into a VikingShip LLC. Whether that happens or not could probably be tracked down for "asnooper"s case since he posted his deed on this thread. Could anybody do this for us? or perhaps tell me how to do it so I could check it myself?

So far, none of the three users has reported confirmation from the resort.

The grantee is listed as a husband and wife in Los Angeles. Wyndham does everything at a snail's pace and I'm still waiting for written confirmation from them that the deal is completely done. All I have from them so far is a phone confirmation that it went thru on 4/30. But they haven't sent a bill for the May maintenance, so I take that as a pretty good sign. Still, I like to have documentation that I can hold in my hand or see on the computer. It's hard to beat black-and-white hardcopy. I intend to bug them until I get something. When I do, I'll post that event.

 

[ace2000]

Sounds like the HOA would be in violation of the contract if they denied Association membership to an owner! It wouldn't be the first time an HOA has openly broken laws or contracts though...Sorta like how they approve deedbacks for some people and not others is also in violation

You know, this really does open up an opportunity for a lawsuit. Or at least the threat of one if a HOA turned down your request to deedback and it is known that they've previously accepted others. Chances are most resorts have taken some deedbacks.

 

[bogey21]

But some of the discussion seems to suggest some people have undertaken transfers without an estoppel letter.

I'm down to one TS Week but over the years probably owned between 20 and 25 at one time or another. Although I never required, used (or what ever the correct term is) an estoppel letter, I never had a problem buying, selling, using my Week, or transferring title. Truth is I'm not even sure what an estoppel letter is supposed to accomplish.

George

 

[rrlongwell]

Having dealt with a total of four transfers of ownerships with first Fairfield & then Wyndham I can tell you from first hand experience that they DO refuse to accept recorded deeds they detirmine to be "flawed" in any number of ways. That doesn't stop them from billing whoever they deem to be the owner but they block any use until it is corrected. Right or not you have no choice but to deal on their terms or undertake an expensive and uncertain legal suit. Few if any will do that as it is cost prohibitive & they know it.

Unlike Ride, I do have some personal experience with this, the issue is now successfully resolved, however, Wyndham legal was claiming an abslute right to approve or deniy the actual ownership change as it relates to use after a deed is recorded and yes I was paying and responsable for the maintance fees during the disputed period. That is why someone must be real careful when transferring ownership on timeshares. This involved one transferred from an Estate and two bought through their sales arm, they were claiming their sales arm had no right to sell them.

 

[Bwolf]

I'm down to one TS Week but over the years probably owned between 20 and 25 at one time or another. Although I never required, used (or what ever the correct term is) an estoppel letter, I never had a problem buying, selling, using my Week, or transferring title. Truth is I'm not even sure what an estoppel letter is supposed to accomplish.

George

Basically, it is to prove to the buyer that all assessments and payments due by the current owner are paid or incorporated into the amounts due at closing and paid at the time of the closing. It is comforting to know that there is nothing owed.

I'm sure there are better definitions, but that is the general idea.

 

[Ridewithme38]

This involved one transferred from an Estate and two bought through their sales arm, they were claiming their sales arm had no right to sell them.

Sounds like an invalid deed...For example, If i sold you a house i didn't have a right to sell...i.e. i didn't own...The deed would be invalid

I don't know why you were paying MF's on something you didn't own though...If you're into that sort of thing, i have an oil bill i can send you

 

[csxjohn]

Just curious

Unlike Ride, I do have some personal experience with this, the issue is now successfully resolved, however, Wyndham legal was claiming an abslute right to approve or deniy the actual ownership change as it relates to use after a deed is recorded and yes I was paying and responsable for the maintance fees during the disputed period. That is why someone must be real careful when transferring ownership on timeshares. This involved one transferred from an Estate and two bought through their sales arm, they were claiming their sales arm had no right to sell them.

Did they think the sales arm sold them too cheap so they did not want the deal to go through?

Since your disputes were resolved in your favor, it appears they do not have absolute power over the transfer. Of course if yoiu don't fight you can't win.

 

[rrlongwell]

Did they think the sales arm sold them too cheap so they did not want the deal to go through?

Since your disputes were resolved in your favor, it appears they do not have absolute power over the transfer. Of course if yoiu don't fight you can't win.

Put the Estate one aside for the purpose of this answer, the two that were bought through Wyndham were not bad deed situations as far as I know. If it was, then Wyndham should have had clear title before their sales moved them. The problem is real and did require a fight, at my expensse, to get the issue resolved.

 

[timeos2]

Put the Estate one aside for the purpose of this answer, the two that were bought through Wyndham were not bad deed situations as far as I know. If it was, then Wyndham should have had clear title before their sales moved them. The problem is real and did require a fight, at my expensse, to get the issue resolved.

Which proves the point I was trying to make. While you may be legally correct in your stance you are at the mercy of the whims of Wyndham and it will be at your expense if you have to fight them.

 

[timeos2]

You know, this really does open up an opportunity for a lawsuit. Or at least the threat of one if a HOA turned down your request to deedback and it is known that they've previously accepted others. Chances are most resorts have taken some deedbacks.

The only requirements are that if an offer is made (such as accepting a deed back) then it must be available to all owners. But it can have restrictions - maybe must be current in fees or a limited time - so no basis for any lawsuit unless the resort violated their own rules. The Association must act to the benefit of all owners & that may include a reasonable decision to take deed backs but only for a limited time. And there is no requirement to publish the offer - it can be by inquiry only.

 

[Beefnot]

Which proves the point I was trying to make. While you may be legally correct in your stance you are at the mercy of the whims of Wyndham and it will be at your expense if you have to fight them.

Still, when the collections action goes on your credit history, simply dispute it with the credit bureaus by providing the corresponding documentation. It will be removed from your credit history, and the HOA will be forced to take legal action to pursue further.

 

[timeos2]

Still, when the collections action goes on your credit history, simply dispute it with the credit bureaus by providing the corresponding documentation. It will be removed from your credit history, and the HOA will be forced to take legal action to pursue further.

Many have no idea how to get to the various credit agencies and the removal isn't automatic in any case. Like you the resort can challenge it and likely keep it on the record if they have any supporting evidence (such as past billings/payments and that deed in your name). What should be and what is are often 2 different things.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Many have no idea how to get to the various credit agencies and the removal isn't automatic in any case. Like you the resort can challenge it and likely keep it on the record if they have any supporting evidence (such as past billings/payments and that deed in your name). What should be and what is are often 2 different things.

Lots of people don't know about Timeshares at all, even more don't know about the great deals that are Resale....It's not hard to get in touch with the credit agencies, if the resort gives documentation that shows you didn't own when the debt was incured, by mailing them an outdated deed, compared to the one you mailed the credit agencies...It kinda supports your claim and would it get off your record quicker....

 

[asnooper]

The grantee is listed as a husband and wife in Los Angeles. Wyndham does everything at a snail's pace and I'm still waiting for written confirmation from them that the deal is completely done. All I have from them so far is a phone confirmation that it went thru on 4/30. But they haven't sent a bill for the May maintenance, so I take that as a pretty good sign. Still, I like to have documentation that I can hold in my hand or see on the computer. It's hard to beat black-and-white hardcopy. I intend to bug them until I get something. When I do, I'll post that event.

Just received this in email from Timeshare Refuge (5/11, 12:15 PM):

Hi Bob,
Steve at Sumday Vacations received an email from Ruth at Wyndham Title transfer department and she said you will receive a letter from them confirming the transfer is completed. He also said she sent him an email stating it is completed. Please let me know when you receive the letter.
Thank You
Ray

 

[timeos2]

Lots of people don't know about Timeshares at all, even more don't know about the great deals that are Resale....It's not hard to get in touch with the credit agencies, if the resort gives documentation that shows you didn't own when the debt was incured, by mailing them an outdated deed, compared to the one you mailed the credit agencies...It kinda supports your claim and would it get off your record quicker....

One of the biggest potential problems with ANY Club/Points type operation is you are at the mercy of the incestuously controlled - usually developer operated club/points system. That insulated them from whatever deed/resort you may owe the fees to yet leaves them with the ultimate control - they have the keys to the inventory! You have virtually no input and are left with a very limited ability to challenge what the system decides.

It is NOT a good place to be and that was a major reason we dumped DVC, Wyndham and even RCI Points. It just wasn't worth the battles and the feeling of helplessness that type of Developer control leaves you with.

The ability to accept or reject an ownership transfer at the resort level, which may or may not be a valid action, is just compounded when the use also depends on the relationship with that all powerful "club". Your options become limited and do not favor the old or new owner.

The very fact that Wyndham & others put up roadblocks to transfers, resales in general & get away with it shows that the treat of a lawsuit means little or nothing to them. Or look at Wastegate who ignores the whole concept of owner control/operation of the resorts. It's a slimy world with these groups and they will always do all they can to get the most for themselves - legal or not. They know few if any have the will to put up the fight it would take to maybe make a change. Most simply write it off as a bad decision & move on. They seem to depend on that.

 

[Ridewithme38]

The ability to accept or reject an ownership transfer at the resort level, which may or may not be a valid action, is just compounded when the use also depends on the relationship with that all powerful "club". Your options become limited and do not favor the old or new owner.

Right, it seems as some have mentioned that they do deny membership to some, which is shady at best....But the big point is, If the deed is transferred legally, it doesn't really matter if they reject the New owners membership, they are unable to invalidate a legal deed...with so many TS Doc's listing fees being owed by the 'owner'...By legally transferring the deed to a new owner, you are unaccountable for the future fees...They can bill the old owner all they want, but those bills are NOT your responsibility, i wouldn't even open the letters, just 'return to sender'...And since they have denied membership to the new owner, i'm NOT SURE if they are responsible for the fees either, but that's not the problem/responsibility of the previous owners either....

 

[ampaholic]

Sort of reminds me of the philosophical adage:

5 blind men owners were trying to describe an elephant timeshare transfer and the first described it as like a tree because he was feeling the foot deed recording another described it as like a snake because he was feeling the twist and turns of the trunk Developer control of the HOA a third described it as a big flap because he was describing the ear battle here on TUG the fourth ....

They never discovered they were describing the same exact critter

:hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:

 

[wawacito]

wow

we're so caught up in this heated debate that nobody is paying any attention to the OP.