Hyatt Portfolio Points Program

[Kal]

The Owner's Update is carefully designed to maximize spin. Unless an owner does solid homework you will hear what you want to hear. Need to carefully listen to every word. They are targeting HRC owners to buy in at the minimum and provide their unit into the Portfolio. They have little or no expectation that HRC owners will purchase 2200 points @ $20/point. The minimum is 660 points @ $20/point. Higher points move you up in their Tier levels.

Buyers hear the story that you can get just about any reservation you want. Wrong. Getting on the Request List is NOT a confirmed reservation. Specific to Sunset Harbor this is a sure way to get into an extremely difficult resort. I mentioned that the Portfolio only had 20 unit-weeks for the entire year (out of 2000+ total). They confirmed that fact but said there would be LOTS more being available. The implication is the HPP will have access to the HRC inventory. IF HPP and HRC share a common single Wait List, that will put pressure on HRC availability. We will have to see how that plays out as the Rules call out two specific and separate Lists. They say the HPP has "Priority" but that's definitely Timeshare Huckster speak.

The HRC will have no access to new resorts so they are making a big push to roll out something new for HPP members. See the thread on the new Key West resort.

Buy back Portfolio points: Hyatt says they will buy back points, but the rules say it's at Hyatt's discretion but don't mention the price. Unlike selling resale, Hyatt is the sole option.

Maintenance Fees: For the first 12 weeks of the year you can elect to move your unit into the HPP for one year. You continue to pay MF on your HRC unit, but also pay MF on the HPP points you own. Today that MF is $0.83/point (660 points = $547).

Many owners exiting the update hold the Portfolio Program in extremely low regard.

Potential Impact to HRC: Effect on the HRC Wait List.

 

[lizap]

The Owner's Update is carefully designed to maximize spin. Unless an owner does solid homework you will hear what you want to hear. Need to carefully listen to every word. They are targeting HRC owners to buy in at the minimum and provide their unit into the Portfolio. They have little or no expectation that HRC owners will purchase 2200 points @ $20/point. The minimum is 660 points @ $20/point. Higher points move you up in their Tier levels.

Buyers hear the story that you can get just about any reservation you want. Wrong. Getting on the Request List is NOT a confirmed reservation. Specific to Sunset Harbor this is a sure way to get into an extremely difficult resort. I mentioned that the Portfolio only had 20 unit-weeks for the entire year (out of 2000+ total). They confirmed that fact but said there would be LOTS more being available. The implication is the HPP will have access to the HRC inventory. IF HPP and HRC share a common single Wait List, that will put pressure on HRC availability. We will have to see how that plays out as the Rules call out two specific and separate Lists. They say the HPP has "Priority" but that's definitely Timeshare Huckster speak.

The HRC will have no access to new resorts so they are making a big push to roll out something new for HPP members. See the thread on the new Key West resort.

Buy back Portfolio points: Hyatt says they will buy back points, but the rules say it's at Hyatt's discretion but don't mention the price. Unlike selling resale, Hyatt is the sole option.

Maintenance Fees: For the first 12 weeks of the year you can elect to move your unit into the HPP for one year. You continue to pay MF on your HRC unit, but also pay MF on the HPP points you own. Today that MF is $0.83/point (660 points = $547).

Many owners exiting the update hold the Portfolio Program in extremely low regard.

Potential Impact to HRC: Effect on the HRC Wait List.

Kal, can you more specifically explain (maybe give an example) on the potential impact on waitlist for HRC owners? Thanks.

 

[WalnutBaron]

Thanks, Kal, for your insights, which are always expertly and cogently expressed. My takeaways from your summary, fwiw:

• When the weasels told you there would be LOTS more inventory at hard-to-secure resorts in the future, they're obviously counting on converting LOTS more HRC owners--and it appears that is not going well. That's the only economical way to obtain that inventory, since the alternative--exercising ROFR on a large scale--is a huge cash drain on ILG and Hyatt.
• I agree that the sharing of wait lists between HPP and HRC would most definitely put pressure on HRC owners and would diminish the value we all currently enjoy by being able to pretty readily get trades using our CUP points. You correctly point out that the rules clearly state that HRC and HPP are separate ownership trusts with separate lists, so the merging of those lists cannot be accomplished under the current rules.
• Does this prevent ILG/Hyatt from attempting to change the rules in the future? No. Which means that HRC owners must remain vigilant, especially if the HPP sales push ultimately proves to bomb out, which appears to be the case at least thus far.
• The chutzpah of ILG with this program is pretty astounding: they actually expect HRC owners to place their unit(s) in the HPP, while covering the cost of two maintenance fees? Wow.
• And then there's the buy-back program, which--as you point out--forces HPP owners who decide they've bought a lemon to sell back their points only to Hyatt at an undetermined price which will most certainly not be what they paid for those points. That's not just misleading, but truly confiscatory.

I think those of us who own HRC realize what a great program we have. We'd better be prepared to work hard to defend it, because clearly the parent company doesn't like it nearly as well as we do.

 

[lizap]

Thanks, Kal, for your insights, which are always expertly and cogently expressed. My takeaways from your summary, fwiw:

• When the weasels told you there would be LOTS more inventory at hard-to-secure resorts in the future, they're obviously counting on converting LOTS more HRC owners--and it appears that is not going well. That's the only economical way to obtain that inventory, since the alternative--exercising ROFR on a large scale--is a huge cash drain on ILG and Hyatt.
• I agree that the sharing of wait lists between HPP and HRC would most definitely put pressure on HRC owners and would diminish the value we all currently enjoy by being able to pretty readily get trades using our CUP points. You correctly point out that the rules clearly state that HRC and HPP are separate ownership trusts with separate lists, so the merging of those lists cannot be accomplished under the current rules.
• Does this prevent ILG/Hyatt from attempting to change the rules in the future? No. Which means that HRC owners must remain vigilant, especially if the HPP sales push ultimately proves to bomb out, which appears to be the case at least thus far.
• The chutzpah of ILG with this program is pretty astounding: they actually expect HRC owners to place their unit(s) in the HPP, while covering the cost of two maintenance fees? Wow.
• And then there's the buy-back program, which--as you point out--forces HPP owners who decide they've bought a lemon to sell back their points only to Hyatt at an undetermined price which will most certainly not be what they paid for those points. That's not just misleading, but truly confiscatory.

I think those of us who own HRC realize what a great program we have. We'd better be prepared to work hard to defend it, because clearly the parent company doesn't like it nearly as well as we do.

Unfortunately, they're trying to make money off a mature product by hurting HRC owners. I wonder how long it will take for them to figure out their plan isn't working or not working as fast as they want. They could get more inventory from more HRC owners by allowing conversion to HPP for a nominal fee, ala Marriott.

 

[Kal]

Kal, can you more specifically explain (maybe give an example) on the potential impact on waitlist for HRC owners? Thanks.

The impact could occur if HPP has clear access to the HRC Wait List. The Portfolio Tiers claim HPP has “Priority Access”. If an HRC owner is say #6 on the wait list and a HPP owner enters the list one minute later, they should be #7. IF they have Wait List Priority, they could be at #5 or higher. If enough HPP members want that same resort stay, the HRC member would be sequentially bumped lower and lower down the list.


The position of an owner here (who is a lawyer) says that approach would be a violation of the HRC rules and would be sufficient cause for legal action.

 

[heathpack]

Kal, when you say you can elect to convert your unit to HPP for a year, but then you pay MF on your unit plus on 600 points, are you saying that the only people who can do this are people who buy into the HPP?

Or, even those of us who don’t buy in can pay our own MF + the MF on 600 points once each year to temporarily participate in HPP?

 

[lizap]

The impact could occur if HPP has clear access to the HRC Wait List. The Portfolio Tiers claim HPP has “Priority Access”. If an HRC owner is say #6 on the wait list and a HPP owner enters the list one minute later, they should be #7. IF they have Wait List Priority, they could be at #5 or higher. If enough HPP members want that same resort stay, the HRC member would be sequentially bumped lower and lower down the list.


The position of an owner here (who is a lawyer) says that approach would be a violation of the HRC rules and would be sufficient cause for legal action.

So, essentially, the internal trading system of HRC, as we have known it, would be over. Why don't they just tell us we have to covert in order to continue to be able to exchange into other HRC resorts?

 

[Sapper]

Kal, thank you for this. You are a great resource to the community.

I am sure their lawyers have been all over this to make sure they are not crossing lines with regards to mixing the two pools and wait lists. Is it possible what the sales weasel meant by "priority" is the HPP gains access to the wait list more than 12 months out, hence, they have priority over HRC in the sense that if they make the wait list request at 13 months, then they have priority over an HRC member who makes the same reservation at 12 months? -OR- did the sales weasel specifically state that "priority" means that IF an HRC member is #6 on the wait list, and an HPP member makes the exact same request, then they are placed at #5 ahead of the HRC member? If it's the first, I'm not too worried about it. If it is the second, then that becomes a conflict.

 

[Sapper]

heathpack, if I understand it correctly, you would need to buy the points at $20/per then pay maintenance on both your owned unit plus the HPP points... every year. The only temporary part would be whether you want to use your owned unit as owned or deposit it into the HPP.

lizap, I don't think trading is over as we know it. Based on what has been said, and what we have seen so far, assuming the HPP is successful (and I'm not sure it will be), there would be only minor changes. You would still be able to exchange like you currently do today.

 

[WalnutBaron]

So, essentially, the internal trading system of HRC, as we have known it, would be over. Why don't they just tell us we have to covert in order to continue to be able to exchange into other HRC resorts?

Because you don't. Your HRC ownership has not changed, nor have your exchange rights. What Kal is warning against is the possibility that ILG will breach the line between the two trusts and allow HPP owners to gain priority for exchanges into HRC. Under the rules of both trusts, this cannot be done unless an HRC owner willingly gives up his rights for a year by buying into the HPP for the year in question. As Kal has pointed out, that requires the HRC owner to pay maintenance fees into both HRC and HPP for that given year--yet another reason why HRC owners would be sorely persuaded not to make this conversion. (The only reason I can think of is if they just have to get the exchange rights into the HPP inventory--either for HKB or the new Key West property yet to be announced.)

As Kal has also pointed out, if ILG decides to breach that line and allow the HPP owners to gain priority access, that would be grounds for legal action. There are two scenarios which complicate the matter: 1) how are HRC owners going to know their priority has been given to an HPP owner unless they're told so? For example, none of us currently has any idea when we place our names on a wait list now what position we're in to get the exchange, so how would we know in the future?; 2) ILG could try the subversive--but legal--route of putting out a referendum of all HRC owners to vote to change the rules. They'd work hard to highlight all the reasons owners should vote for the rules change, and they would also try to bury the effects of the real consequences of such a change. And any attempt by alert owners to mount a campaign to defeat such a measure is grievously hampered by HRC owners' inability to get hold of an ownership list, much less raise the money in a short period of time to educate HRC owners on why such a change is a terrible idea.

 

[Tucsonadventurer]

Because you don't. Your HRC ownership has not changed, nor have your exchange rights. What Kal is warning against is the possibility that ILG will breach the line between the two trusts and allow HPP owners to gain priority for exchanges into HRC. Under the rules of both trusts, this cannot be done unless an HRC owner willingly gives up his rights for a year by buying into the HPP for the year in question. As Kal has pointed out, that requires the HRC owner to pay maintenance fees into both HRC and HPP for that given year--yet another reason why HRC owners would be sorely persuaded not to make this conversion. (The only reason I can think of is if they just have to get the exchange rights into the HPP inventory--either for HKB or the new Key West property yet to be announced.)

As Kal has also pointed out, if ILG decides to breach that line and allow the HPP owners to gain priority access, that would be grounds for legal action. There are two scenarios which complicate the matter: 1) how are HRC owners going to know their priority has been given to an HPP owner unless they're told so? For example, none of us currently has any idea when we place our names on a wait list now what position we're in to get the exchange, so how would we know in the future?; 2) ILG could try the subversive--but legal--route of putting out a referendum of all HRC owners to vote to change the rules. They'd work hard to highlight all the reasons owners should vote for the rules change, and they would also try to bury the effects of the real consequences of such a change. And any attempt by alert owners to mount a campaign to defeat such a measure is grievously hampered by HRC owners' inability to get hold of an ownership list, much less raise the money in a short period of time to educate HRC owners on why such a change is a terrible idea.

I agree that the waiting list is an unknown, we have no way of knowing where we are on it or if it is honored. We just tried to make an online reservation and were told we needed to pay an additional 42 on our Beach House. We had just paid in full a month ago and had our records to prove it. After 1 1/2 hrs on the phone they admitted they made an error and booked for us at the online price BUT in the meantime we had many wait list requests which we will never know if we missed out on.

 

[Tucsonadventurer]

The Owner's Update is carefully designed to maximize spin. Unless an owner does solid homework you will hear what you want to hear. Need to carefully listen to every word. They are targeting HRC owners to buy in at the minimum and provide their unit into the Portfolio. They have little or no expectation that HRC owners will purchase 2200 points @ $20/point. The minimum is 660 points @ $20/point. Higher points move you up in their Tier levels.

Buyers hear the story that you can get just about any reservation you want. Wrong. Getting on the Request List is NOT a confirmed reservation. Specific to Sunset Harbor this is a sure way to get into an extremely difficult resort. I mentioned that the Portfolio only had 20 unit-weeks for the entire year (out of 2000+ total). They confirmed that fact but said there would be LOTS more being available. The implication is the HPP will have access to the HRC inventory. IF HPP and HRC share a common single Wait List, that will put pressure on HRC availability. We will have to see how that plays out as the Rules call out two specific and separate Lists. They say the HPP has "Priority" but that's definitely Timeshare Huckster speak.

The HRC will have no access to new resorts so they are making a big push to roll out something new for HPP members. See the thread on the new Key West resort.

Buy back Portfolio points: Hyatt says they will buy back points, but the rules say it's at Hyatt's discretion but don't mention the price. Unlike selling resale, Hyatt is the sole option.

Maintenance Fees: For the first 12 weeks of the year you can elect to move your unit into the HPP for one year. You continue to pay MF on your HRC unit, but also pay MF on the HPP points you own. Today that MF is $0.83/point (660 points = $547).

Many owners exiting the update hold the Portfolio Program in extremely low regard.

Potential Impact to HRC: Effect on the HRC Wait List.

Kal,
Did they mention Hawaii joining the portfolio program. They told us in our update that eventually ALL Hyatt properties would be in the portfolio program. Is that just talk? Folks that have gone to Hawaii updates are being told that Hawaii will NOT be joining portfolio. What is your take?

 

[Sapper]

I agree that the waiting list is an unknown, we have no way of knowing where we are on it or if it is honored. We just tried to make an online reservation and were told we needed to pay an additional 42 on our Beach House. We had just paid in full a month ago and had our records to prove it. After 1 1/2 hrs on the phone they admitted they made an error and booked for us at the online price BUT in the meantime we had many wait list requests which we will never know if we missed out on.

I had a similar amount due after I had paid my Beach House dues. I paid it the first time because I did not know any better. It then showed up again on the second reservation I tried to make. I called and talked with them, and was told there was an adjustment in dues after the bills went out or some such garbage (requiring HBH owners to pay additional dues). However, I was told since I had paid it the first time, it should be marked as paid, and not come back up. The guy manually removed it and put the reservation in.

 

[scsu_hockey_fan]

Remember HPC owners don't have access to HRC till 6 months out. I would think the request list would be one shared one. I think the priority thing might be amongst the HPC group depending upon their points tier. I don't see how a hpc could trump the spot of a HRC on the list. But could see a hpc owner who owns a lot of points could trump another hpc owner on the Hrc waitlist who has a Lower tier status

The impact could occur if HPP has clear access to the HRC Wait List. The Portfolio Tiers claim HPP has “Priority Access”. If an HRC owner is say #6 on the wait list and a HPP owner enters the list one minute later, they should be #7. IF they have Wait List Priority, they could be at #5 or higher. If enough HPP members want that same resort stay, the HRC member would be sequentially bumped lower and lower down the list.


The position of an owner here (who is a lawyer) says that approach would be a violation of the HRC rules and would be sufficient cause for legal action.

 

[Sapper]

Remember HPC owners don't have access to HRC till 6 months out. I would think the request list would be one shared one. I think the priority thing might be amongst the HPC group depending upon their points tier. I don't see how a hpc could trump the spot of a HRC on the list. But could see a hpc owner who owns a lot of points could trump another hpc owner on the Hrc waitlist who has a Lower tier status

I believe it is the other way around. HRC has access to HPP at six months, HPP has access to HRC at 12 months (and possibly earlier based on this "priority" thing). Though you bring up a good point, might a higher tier HPP owner have some kind of priority over a lower tier HPP owner?

 

[Kal]

Kal,
Did they mention Hawaii joining the portfolio program. They told us in our update that eventually ALL Hyatt properties would be in the portfolio program. Is that just talk? Folks that have gone to Hawaii updates are being told that Hawaii will NOT be joining portfolio. What is your take?

Hawaii is NOT in the HPP.

 

[Kal]

Kal, when you say you can elect to convert your unit to HPP for a year, but then you pay MF on your unit plus on 600 points, are you saying that the only people who can do this are people who buy into the HPP?

Or, even those of us who don’t buy in can pay our own MF + the MF on 600 points once each year to temporarily participate in HPP?

To participate in the HPP you must meet the minimum 660 point entry level. You then pay an annual M/F on the 660 points. You are then limited to 660 point usage which might be just one Saturday. You then have the annual option to place your HRC unit(s) into the HPP. The condition is the HRC M/F is paid and you make the decision in the first 12 weeks of the calendar year. You can choose to do nothing. Once you are a HPP member (i.e. you own at least 660 points) you pay the HPP M/F every year. The status of your HRC deed remains unchanged. The only variable is if you place your HRC unit in the Portfolio for a year or not.

 

[heathpack]

To participate in the HPP you must meet the minimum 660 point entry level. You then pay an annual M/F on the 660 points. You are then limited to 660 point usage which might be just one Saturday. You then have the annual option to place your HRC unit(s) into the HPP. The condition is the HRC M/F is paid and you make the decision in the first 12 weeks of the calendar year. You can choose to do nothing. Once you are a HPP member (i.e. you own at least 660 points) you pay the HPP M/F every year. The status of your HRC deed remains unchanged. The only variable is if you place your HRC unit in the Portfolio for a year or not.

Wow that seems like a really convoluted system.

The thing everyone insists on is that HRC units need to stay in a HRC pool while HPP units stay in the HPP pool. I agree that makes sense and it seems like that’s how it should work, from an ethical standpoint.

However, I have always had the impression that HRC club use was different from the way many timeshares work. My impression was always: if you decide not to use your owned unit, you basically turn it over to Hyatt to use as they see fit. When Hyatt only had two pools of users- HRC members and Interval exchangers, it was pretty straightforward: HRC members got the pick of the litter and II exchangers got the dregs. Everyone was pretty happy with that. Now with another pool of people in the mix, the HPP owners, who are going to be rightfully livid if they can’t get Hyatt internal trades, I think there is real incentive to screw HRC members.

So my question is: How do we know that HPP and HRC pools are different and must be to satisfy some kind of legal requirement? My impression was always that we never had any right to anything except to use of our owned unit. Every other usage was up to however Hyatt wanted to organize it. Where do the forceful statement of what Hyatt can and cannot do come from? Other than they must allow us use of our deeded weeks, are we really 100% sure that legally that can’t use any units turned over for club use for whatever purpose they want?

 

[Tucsonadventurer]

Hawaii is NOT in the HPP.

I know that it's currently not a part of it, just curious about future plans. Sales in Florida and AZ ensure us it will be in it that plans are underway to include Maui in H.P.P. while Hawaii sales insist that it will not ever be a part of portfolio. I guess time will tell.

 

[ivywag]

Wow that seems like a really convoluted system.

The thing everyone insists on is that HRC units need to stay in a HRC pool while HPP units stay in the HPP pool. I agree that makes sense and it seems like that’s how it should work, from an ethical standpoint.

However, I have always had the impression that HRC club use was different from the way many timeshares work. My impression was always: if you decide not to use your owned unit, you basically turn it over to Hyatt to use as they see fit. When Hyatt only had two pools of users- HRC members and Interval exchangers, it was pretty straightforward: HRC members got the pick of the litter and II exchangers got the dregs. Everyone was pretty happy with that. Now with another pool of people in the mix, the HPP owners, who are going to be rightfully livid if they can’t get Hyatt internal trades, I think there is real incentive to screw HRC members.

So my question is: How do we know that HPP and HRC pools are different and must be to satisfy some kind of legal requirement? My impression was always that we never had any right to anything except to use of our owned unit. Every other usage was up to however Hyatt wanted to organize it. Where do the forceful statement of what Hyatt can and cannot do come from? Other than they must allow us use of our deeded weeks, are we really 100% sure that legally that can’t use any units turned over for club use for whatever purpose they want?

I spent some time this afternoon reading the Club to Club Exchange Agreement. It has been in effect since last year and says that by using the exchange program we are agreeing to its terms. It says that an HRC member who is also a Trust member MAY be able to convert an HRC unit to HPC for a given year as several have stated above. It goes on to say that not all HRC owners are eligible for the conversion. It depends upon the unit, time of year etc and that HVGG decides who is eligible. It sounds like they only want the good units. It also says that HVGG can coordinate the inventory between the 2 clubs to make sure that it is fair to both clubs.

Additionally it says that during our Club Use Period HPC may reserve HRC available units and during the HPC Reservation Period, HRC owners may reserve HPC units. I'm not sure why any HRC owners would pay to join HPC since we can reserve the units anyway. This would seem to indicate that if there are units in HPC to support the points that are sold, nothing should change for us since for every unit an HPC member reserves in HRC there will be one available in HPC for one of us to reserve. However, if they are selling more points than they have units or if they add new resorts that we don't have access to and and sell points being supported by those units, it could put more pressure on availability of the more desirable HRC units by having more HPC people eligible to reserve those units while we can't reserve the new resorts. It doesn't really talk much about the wait list.

I encourage anyone who hasn't read that agreement to do so. It's on the website. If you have read it, please let us know if I am interpreting it correctly.

 

[Sapper]

So my question is: How do we know that HPP and HRC pools are different and must be to satisfy some kind of legal requirement? My impression was always that we never had any right to anything except to use of our owned unit. Every other usage was up to however Hyatt wanted to organize it. Where do the forceful statement of what Hyatt can and cannot do come from? Other than they must allow us use of our deeded weeks, are we really 100% sure that legally that can’t use any units turned over for club use for whatever purpose they want?

I want to say it is in here: http://www.bywindkal.com/HVOPLAN3.pdf

I don't have the time right now to read through it, or I'd cite a location.

 

[scsu_hockey_fan]

Yes you are correct. Hpc has access to availability in Hrc at 12 months out. And HRC has access to hpc at 6 months out. This could create more competition for sold out/built out popular Hrc resorts.I suspose it will help that they are adding a key west reort. Thankfully there are both clubs, with ample units in each club, where I like to go!

I believe it is the other way around. HRC has access to HPP at six months, HPP has access to HRC at 12 months (and possibly earlier based on this "priority" thing). Though you bring up a good point, might a higher tier HPP owner have some kind of priority over a lower tier HPP owner?

 

[ivywag]

Yes you are correct. Hpc has access to availability in Hrc at 12 months out. And HRC has access to hpc at 6 months out. This could create more competition for sold out/built out popular Hrc resorts.I suspose it will help that they are adding a key west reort. Thankfully there are both clubs, with ample units in each club, where I like to go!

We love Key West, too. In fact we're going to HSH in two weeks! My parents moved to Islamorada when I was in college and lived there for the rest of their lives so it's a bit nostalgic for me. We try to go once a year if we can. Regarding the Club to Club Exchange Agreement--it says that during the "Club Use Period" HPC has access to HRC. That's 6 months out that HPC has access to HRC inventory. Then it says that HRC owners can book HPC during the HPC Exchange Reservation period. Since we have not been made privy to any HPC info, I don't know how long that is!

 

[ivywag]

Help needed! I remember reading on this forum that Hyatt has a kiosk in downtown Key West where the offer to attend the "owners update" is $150 instead of the $150 offered at the resort. I can't seem to find that thread. Can anyone tell me where the kiosk is? I'd like to sign up today.

 

[Cropman]

When I was there at beginning of February, there was one right next to Two Friends Restaurant. And, I think, there is one at the corner of Duval and Caroline.