HRC to acquire Welk Resorts [MERGED]

[Shankilicious]

I know Sedona is low . I was was expecting Welk Northstar to be more in the $1500 range than $ 2100.

Maintenance fees for Welk are not based on where you bought/location. There is NO set location or home resort at all with Welk right now. I bought in Branson in 2015. My paperwork says Welk resorts San Diego. It's just points, no specific views or units to own and very few seasons to deal with. Literally no seasons in San Diego, Palm Springs, or Cabo to worry about. Branson has low season of January and February and that's it. It was the simplest system I had researched.

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[b2bailey]

We are Welk Owners. They have resorts in San Diego (3), Palm Springs, Lake Tahoe (2), Cabo San Lucas, Breckenridge and Branson. We love their resorts and have also stayed at Hyatt Residence Clubs and Marriotts. I would say they are at the same level as the HRC. They were mostly all Elite resorts with Interval but they switched to RCI a few years ago as RCI Platinum. They also have 16 other resorts that you can book using Welk points without an exchange fee that they call the Experiences Collection by Welk Resorts. Those are in Carlsbad, Kauai (2), Tahoe Vista, Santa Fe, Redmond OR, Olympic Valley, Scottsdale, Sedona, Beaver Creek, Cave Creek, Ko Olina, Lake Buena Vista (2), Blanchard ID and Avon. Not sure what will happen with those in the transition.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I have stayed at the Escondido (not really San Diego) and the Palm Springs (but not really PS) locations. I would in no way consider those two to be on par with my expectations for a Hyatt location.

 

[dannybaker]

We have three weeks annual in Welk and use the weeks in RCI points always. My only concern is will they leave RCI? Currently you have a choice of either ii or RCI. Worst case I buy another timeshare to trade with RCI. Is Hyatt strictly II?

 

[fleecer]

We have three weeks annual in Welk and use the weeks in RCI points always. My only concern is will they leave RCI? Currently you have a choice of either ii or RCI. Worst case I buy another timeshare to trade with RCI. Is Hyatt strictly II?

Is there an assumption that Welk owners (soon to be HVC) won't be able to continue trading into RCI? Just like Welk allows now with II?

 

[travelhacker]

Is there an assumption that Welk owners (soon to be HVC) won't be able to continue trading into RCI? Just like Welk allows now with II?

It really depends. I would imagine there is some contract between Welk and RCI that they will probably let run it's course. I'm guessing it's probably got a few years left.

I believe Welk owners were always able to deposit weeks to either II or RCI and I would imagine that won't change. If you own points I would guess you will be limited to just II inventory whenever the RCI / Welk agreement runs its course.

 

[Shankilicious]

I remember seeing an RCI link on the owners page before the contract with RCI. Well probably just have to pay for the RCI membership if we wanna keep it.
Again, the vast majority of Welk owners are pure points owners.

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[fleecer]

Might sound odd right now, but as a Welk owner I'm most wondering now if their internal member rental program will likely disappear. This allowed us to reserve then place our reservation into rental using Welk as the renter, essentially splitting the proceeds. This has worked well for us.

 

[ski_sierra]

So really what does this add for HRC owners?

Palm Springs- II trades are a dime a dozen
Escondido- nice resorts but meh
Cabo- Sirenia del Mar, I’ve stayed there and liked it but Mexico trades are also easy
Branson- no interest personally but I know it appeals to many
Tahoe and Breckenridge are already in the system

So really this is not great for HRC owners. Welk owners have some sweet additions that are difficult places to trade into- Carmel CA, Key West, Aspen. But HRC owners get only the addition of places that are easy trades, and the Welk owners now also vying for booking at the HRC resorts that we have had pretty good access to previously.

Ugh. I am not optimistic

I feel the same way. Other than Northstar, I don't find the Welk properties very appealing or interesting to visit compared to other options in those areas. When I researched Welk, I felt like they added a few appealing resorts so they could sell the unappealing resorts. Their MFs are also extremely high and the points requirements for new resorts are extremely inflated.

Marriott probably loved Welk's approach of bundling lots of junk resorts at inflated points requirements with a few good resorts at reasonable points requirements. The good resorts with low points value are great for sales but since the inventory of the good stuff is so low, most people won't be able to access them. When these members complain, sales can tell them to buy more points to get to higher elite level so they can have better access.

 

[Shankilicious]

I feel the same way. Other than Northstar, I don't find the Welk properties very appealing or interesting to visit compared to other options in those areas. When I researched Welk, I felt like they added a few appealing resorts so they could sell the unappealing resorts. Their MFs are also extremely high and the points requirements for new resorts are extremely inflated.

Marriott probably loved Welk's approach of bundling lots of junk resorts at inflated points requirements with a few good resorts at reasonable points requirements. The good resorts with low points value are great for sales but since the inventory of the good stuff is so low, most people won't be able to access them. When these members complain, sales can tell them to buy more points to get to higher elite level so they can have better access.

There is no low inventory for Welk owners. With the exception of Christmas and Valentine's in Tahoe, if I look to book 8-9months out I can get into any resort for at least 5 nights with my 240k annual points.
240k will only get me a two bedroom at San Diego and Branson, a 1BR villa at cabo (800+sqft ocean view) for a week.
Northstar I can get a Sunday to Friday two bedroom plus den during ski season for 220k points. So I don't know what you're talking about with Welk selling junk. Our MF didn't increase any more than other years when they added the collection resorts, or when they added Breckenridge, or when they added two new buildings in Branson and we've never had any special assessment fees.
Only 10-15% of owners have 420k annual points and up which means booking January-March in Tahoe can be done as late as November because EOY owners can't book those months until 60 days out.
It is annoying that Breck costs so many points but I could still do a short stay there with my 240k points. I've never had to worry about booking "as far out as possible" so there's no low inventory issues to speak of unless you're an EOY owner.

Edit: I just checked and I can book next valentines in Breck or Tahoe with multiple room options. And 240k will get me a full week in the studio in Breck. Which is a far cry from a 2BR but still a full week in the newest resort without having to pay extra isn't bad at all.
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[dagger1]

I got this email from Hyatt today too.

Im assuming mostly this is a vehicle to sell their truly awful points system. Which is something of a negative for weeks owners because anything that gives that system traction is not good for those of us who refuse to play. Unless Hyatt sees an opportunity to correct problems with HPP such that weeks owners would want to buy in.

If there’s access to the Welk weeks owners inventory, then great for everybody- it’s a win win. But the one thing I learned from the HPP rollout is that HRC does not seem to be interested in any kind of win-win scenario. So I’m honestly not optimistic that this Welk purchase will actually be of benefit to existing owners.

I agree.

 

[alwysonvac]

Would this mean HRC will have access the experience collection also? It purchased only the 8 resorts owned by Welk.

Marriott is getting more than the 8 resorts in the agreement with Welks. Not sure what it means for the rest.

From https://stockhouse.com/news/press-r...ces-pending-acquisition-by-marriott-vacations

“Welk Hospitality Group has entered into an agreement with Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation ("MVW") (NYSE: VAC) to sell the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts for approximately $430 million , including approximately 1.4 million MVW common shares. The acquisition is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021...​

 

[Shankilicious]

Marriott is getting more than the 8 resorts in the agreement with Welks. Not sure what it means for the rest.

From https://stockhouse.com/news/press-r...ces-pending-acquisition-by-marriott-vacations

“Welk Hospitality Group has entered into an agreement with Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation ("MVW") (NYSE: VAC) to sell the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts for approximately $430 million , including approximately 1.4 million MVW common shares. The acquisition is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021...​

That COULD mean the collections properties that Welk has purchased intervals/weeks at but that's yet to be seen. The brief summary on the Welk owners page says nothing is going to change for Welk Owners or Hyatt Owners immediately.

 

[heathpack]

Marriott is getting more than the 8 resorts in the agreement with Welks. Not sure what it means for the rest.

From https://stockhouse.com/news/press-r...ces-pending-acquisition-by-marriott-vacations

“Welk Hospitality Group has entered into an agreement with Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation ("MVW") (NYSE: VAC) to sell the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts for approximately $430 million , including approximately 1.4 million MVW common shares. The acquisition is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021...​

I read that article and don't conclude that its more than 8 resorts. The question I guess is what constitutes a "Welk resort," "program," and "property management contract". Maybe HRC is getting the eight Welk Resorts and MVW is getting the "programs" and "property management contracts". Or maybe the "programs" and "property management contracts" just refer to the non-real estate portion of owning the eight Welk Resorts.

From the email sent to HRC owners today: "The move is intended to expand Hyatt’s high-quality vacation ownership offerings and ultimately bring eight additional resorts under the Hyatt Residence Club brand. "

 

[Tucsonadventurer]

bq

I think @Vacation1 nailed it. Hyatt was never a good fit for MVC, but it came with ILG. Buying Welk gives them a system that could be viable on it's own.

In the short term, they can cut redundant costs with Welk by folding it into their existing operations (as they've already done with HRC). In 3-5 years after they've got some sales under their belts, and travel has mostly normalized, it can be spun off, or it can be a separate division under the wider VAC umbrella that is mostly independent but shares costs with the larger VAC group.

I read that article and don't conclude that its more than 8 resorts. The question I guess is what constitutes a "Welk resort," "program," and "property management contract". Maybe HRC is getting the eight Welk Resorts and MVW is getting the "programs" and "property management contracts". Or maybe the "programs" and "property management contracts" just refer to the non-real estate portion of owning the eight Welk Resorts.

From the email sent to HRC owners today: "The move is intended to expand Hyatt’s high-quality vacation ownership offerings and ultimately bring eight additional resorts under the Hyatt Residence Club brand. "

I am assuming to use it, we would need to buy into portfolio. I doubt it would be worth it

 

[gratiem]

Nothing to add, just really appreciate everyone's perspective and insights.

Oh and that I need to find $1200 for 2200 points. I'm doing it wrong.

 

[alexadeparis]

Welks also owns weeks at
Eagle Crest Resort,
El Corazon de Santa Fe,
Four Seasons Residence Club Aviara,
Four Seasons Residence Club Scottsdale at Troon North,
Villas of Cave Creek, Arroyo Roble Resort,
Red Wolf Lodge at Squaw Valley,
Red Wolf Lakeside Lodge,
Montane Lodge, and
Pono Kai Resort

The number of weeks at each resort is documented in their Public Report webpage -

https://welkresorts-prod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/public-report.pdf

For example

View attachment 31549

I would LOVE to get into the FSA units in Scottsdale. That would be beyond awesome.

 

[alwysonvac]

Marriott is getting more than the 8 resorts in the agreement with Welks. Not sure what it means for the rest.

From https://stockhouse.com/news/press-r...ces-pending-acquisition-by-marriott-vacations

“Welk Hospitality Group has entered into an agreement with Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation ("MVW") (NYSE: VAC) to sell the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts for approximately $430 million , including approximately 1.4 million MVW common shares. The acquisition is expected to close early in the second quarter of 2021...​

I read that article and don't conclude that its more than 8 resorts. The question I guess is what constitutes a "Welk resort," "program," and "property management contract". Maybe HRC is getting the eight Welk Resorts and MVW is getting the "programs" and "property management contracts". Or maybe the "programs" and "property management contracts" just refer to the non-real estate portion of owning the eight Welk Resorts.

From the email sent to HRC owners today: "The move is intended to expand Hyatt’s high-quality vacation ownership offerings and ultimately bring eight additional resorts under the Hyatt Residence Club brand. "

Sorry, I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with .

I wrote “Marriott” is getting more than 8 resorts (not Hyatt). I believe the article addressed the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts (see below).

The Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts

“...After the transaction closes, MVW intends to rebrand the Welk-branded vacation resorts in California , Colorado , Missouri , New Mexico and Cabo San Lucas, Mexico as Hyatt Residence Club properties. This will bring the Hyatt Residence Club portfolio to 24 upper upscale resorts and complement its existing locations in Arizona, California , Colorado , Florida , Hawaii , Nevada , Puerto Rico and Texas. The process to integrate and rebrand the Welk Resorts properties and products will be a complex, longer-term initiative and subject to final approval from Hyatt Hotels Corporation...”​

​

The programs and property management

“...Welk Resorts opened The Ranahan in Breckenridge, Colo. in early 2020 and announced management contracts with several resorts in late 2019 and early 2020 including El Corazon de Santa Fe by Welk Resorts in Santa Fe, New Mexico as well as the Eagle Point Vacation Community in Vail , Colo. Several years ago, the company also introduced its Experiences Collection by Welk Resorts, which includes an additional 16 vacation resorts available to Welk Resorts' Platinum Owners, such as the Four Seasons and Disney Vacation Club in desirable locations from Florida to Hawaii....”​

Welks also owns weeks at
Eagle Crest Resort,
El Corazon de Santa Fe,
Four Seasons Residence Club Aviara,
Four Seasons Residence Club Scottsdale at Troon North,
Villas of Cave Creek, Arroyo Roble Resort,
Red Wolf Lodge at Squaw Valley,
Red Wolf Lakeside Lodge,
Montane Lodge, and
Pono Kai Resort

The number of weeks at each resort is documented in their Public Report webpage -

https://welkresorts-prod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/public-report.pdf

For example

View attachment 31549

The articles seems to align with Welks Public Report document that I previously posted in this thread which defines the Program.

From page 6 of 31 (see link in the quote above)

“The developer of Welk Resorts Platinum Program (the "Program") is Welk Resort Group, Inc., a California corporation, located at 300 Rancheros Drive #450, San Marcos, California 92069. The Program is a multi-location time-share plan with accommodations in the following locations (the “Underlying Resorts”):....”​

 

[heathpack]

Sorry, I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with .

I wrote “Marriott” is getting more than 8 resorts (not Hyatt). I believe the article addressed the Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts, programs and property management contracts (see below).

The Welk Resorts portfolio of vacation resorts

“...After the transaction closes, MVW intends to rebrand the Welk-branded vacation resorts in California , Colorado , Missouri , New Mexico and Cabo San Lucas, Mexico as Hyatt Residence Club properties. This will bring the Hyatt Residence Club portfolio to 24 upper upscale resorts and complement its existing locations in Arizona, California , Colorado , Florida , Hawaii , Nevada , Puerto Rico and Texas. The process to integrate and rebrand the Welk Resorts properties and products will be a complex, longer-term initiative and subject to final approval from Hyatt Hotels Corporation...”​

​

The programs and property management

“...Welk Resorts opened The Ranahan in Breckenridge, Colo. in early 2020 and announced management contracts with several resorts in late 2019 and early 2020 including El Corazon de Santa Fe by Welk Resorts in Santa Fe, New Mexico as well as the Eagle Point Vacation Community in Vail , Colo. Several years ago, the company also introduced its Experiences Collection by Welk Resorts, which includes an additional 16 vacation resorts available to Welk Resorts' Platinum Owners, such as the Four Seasons and Disney Vacation Club in desirable locations from Florida to Hawaii....”​

The articles seems to align with Welks Public Report document that I previously posted in this thread which defines the Program.

From page 6 of 31 (see link in the quote above)

“The developer of Welk Resorts Platinum Program (the "Program") is Welk Resort Group, Inc., a California corporation, located at 300 Rancheros Drive #450, San Marcos, California 92069. The Program is a multi-location time-share plan with accommodations in the following locations (the “Underlying Resorts”):....”​

Ok I guess we’ll see who gets what as it shakes out over time.

 

[Kal]

The press release speaks of the buyout by "HRC". The term "HRC" is quite broad as it includes the legacy HRC AND the HPP points program. As I recall Hyatt has said there would be no more HRC resorts and any new additions would go into HPP. Given the Welk split of 75% points owners and 25% weeks owners, you have to think thru the concept of bringing new owners who don't have a weeks units into the HRC system. Those owners would fit well into the HPP program. However, the fundamental concept of HPP is to deposit a week into that system. If an owner does not deposit a week, they decrease the availability of HPP reservations to those members.

Then you have to think thru giving the Welk points owners full participation into HPP without paying a huge ransom to be a a member in that system. If they stay in the HRC program, they would be able to access weeks units WITHOUT depositing a week unit available to existing HRC owners. That would be a huge hit on HRC availability.

My guess there will be a split of the Welk owners - the 25% weeks owners would go into HRC and the 75% points owners would go into HPP. Then will Hyatt as always charge the new Welk owners $13,000 to play in the HPP scam?

I can't see any positives for either the HRC or HPP owners. The Welk weeks owners could be the only people who are winners.

 

[Shankilicious]

The press release speaks of the buyout by "HRC". The term "HRC" is quite broad as it includes the legacy HRC AND the HPP points program. As I recall Hyatt has said there would be no more HRC resorts and any new additions would go into HPP. Given the Welk split of 75% points owners and 25% weeks owners, you have to think thru the concept of bringing new owners who don't have a weeks units into the HRC system. Those owners would fit well into the HPP program. However, the fundamental concept of HPP is to deposit a week into that system. If an owner does not deposit a week, they decrease the availability of HPP reservations to those members.

Then you have to think thru giving the Welk points owners full participation into HPP without paying a huge ransom to be a a member in that system. If they stay in the HRC program, they would be able to access weeks units WITHOUT depositing a week unit available to existing HRC owners. That would be a huge hit on HRC availability.

My guess there will be a split of the Welk owners - the 25% weeks owners would go into HRC and the 75% points owners would go into HPP. Then will Hyatt as always charge the new Welk owners $13,000 to play in the HPP scam?

I can't see any positives for either the HRC or HPP owners. The Welk weeks owners could be the only people who are winners.

I'll be beyond pissed if that happens.
I'm hoping HPP gets revamped and learns from the success and simplicity of Welk Platinum Points program.
Is it really $13k to join HPP???

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[vikingsholm]

The press release speaks of the buyout by "HRC". The term "HRC" is quite broad as it includes the legacy HRC AND the HPP points program. As I recall Hyatt has said there would be no more HRC resorts and any new additions would go into HPP. Given the Welk split of 75% points owners and 25% weeks owners, you have to think thru the concept of bringing new owners who don't have a weeks units into the HRC system. Those owners would fit well into the HPP program. However, the fundamental concept of HPP is to deposit a week into that system. If an owner does not deposit a week, they decrease the availability of HPP reservations to those members.

Then you have to think thru giving the Welk points owners full participation into HPP without paying a huge ransom to be a a member in that system. If they stay in the HRC program, they would be able to access weeks units WITHOUT depositing a week unit available to existing HRC owners. That would be a huge hit on HRC availability.

My guess there will be a split of the Welk owners - the 25% weeks owners would go into HRC and the 75% points owners would go into HPP. Then will Hyatt as always charge the new Welk owners $13,000 to play in the HPP scam?

I can't see any positives for either the HRC or HPP owners. The Welk weeks owners could be the only people who are winners.

Kal, my initial thought when I first saw this news was that this would mostly benefit Welk owners and not be the greatest for Hyatt owners, though I do not own Welk or Hyatt and do not understand their systems much. So your post helps fill in some of the blanks.

I do trade into Welk properties occasionally through both II and RCI though.

Do you have any thoughts on how this buyout might affect availability of Welk properties in the exchange systems for those of us who trade into them (in my case, using Marriott units mostly)?

 

[nuwermj]

Welk's fee structure, in their points system, is a two-part price. There is a fixed amount that every account pays and a per point amount. Thus care is needed when making comparisons like the one below.

I own 780,000 Welk points. Since I can spread my fixed cost over a larger number of points than someone who owns only 420k, my cost per point is lower. Thus, that unit at North Star would cost me $1785.54.

There is also the consideration of point v. deeds, something true for any timeshare network. Points are always more expensive than fixed weeks. In addition to my points, I own a fixed week in San Diego. The fee was about $1,000 in 2019. The point equivilant is 240,000. That same unit is $1,507 for some who owns only 240,000 points. For me (with my points) it would cost $1,020.

this chart say two bedroom standard red ski season is 420k Welk points and the 2019 MF on 420K is $ 2,110
IN HRC that week cost me 2200 HRC points and my MF is aprox $ 1,200


View attachment 31551
View attachment 31552

 

[nuwermj]

Then you have to think thru giving the Welk points owners full participation into HPP without paying a huge ransom to be a a member in that system. If they stay in the HRC program, they would be able to access weeks units WITHOUT depositing a week unit available to existing HRC owners. That would be a huge hit on HRC availability.

The Welk owner would use point to get the week and that would make inventory in the Welk system available to HRC owners. Access in both directions must always work on an exchange basis. Could you please elaborate as to why there would be huge hit on HRC?

 

[travelhacker]

@nuwermj @Shankilicious

I'd like to understand what is owned when you own Welk points. Are you sold a deed that has points attached? Or is it all in a points trust? Does Welk have the right to adjust point valuations?

Most "legacy" Hyatt owners own a fixed unit, fixed week that has a points value associated with it. Hyatt reserves the right to adjust point values for those weeks (which is a little bit scary, but when they adjusted the vast majority of people got more points, with a few that lost).

When Hyatt created the new system (HPP), they didn't allow owners (even developer purchased owners) to opt into the points program. You had to purchase a minimum number of points at a crazy price ($13000 was thrown at as the minimum, some have gotten in as low as 10K). The value proposition really isn't there for existing owners to opt into the program.

To make their points program more palatable for sale, HPP owners have the ability to book units within the "legacy" system at 6 months. Because they can't just rob inventory from the "legacy system", legacy owners can also book HPP units at 6 months out. I have booked a few HPP reservations (6 nights without a Saturday is a sweet spot). Since the buy in is so high to get into the HPP product, there has been a limited number of owners in the new system and so we really haven't seen a decrease in availability.

I don't think a whole lot changes for anyone for 12-18 months.

I think the unsold point allocations (Breckenridge for sure), will get sold as HPP.

I don't see a reason from Hyatt's perspective to allow existing Welk Owners to book into Hyatt without buying into it (the inventory in Welk just isn't that appealing outside of the ski properties to most Hyatt owners).

Does Welk have RoFR on sales? If so, Hyatt could RoFR points contracts and take point allotments from the more desirable properties to be sold as points in HPP.

Most Welk listings I see on eBay go for nothing, so that is a really cheap way for Hyatt to build up decent inventory in their points product.

 

[Shankilicious]

@nuwermj @Shankilicious

I'd like to understand what is owned when you own Welk points. Are you sold a deed that has points attached? Or is it all in a points trust? Does Welk have the right to adjust point valuations?

Most "legacy" Hyatt owners own a fixed unit, fixed week that has a points value associated with it. Hyatt reserves the right to adjust point values for those weeks (which is a little bit scary, but when they adjusted the vast majority of people got more points, with a few that lost).

When Hyatt created the new system (HPP), they didn't allow owners (even developer purchased owners) to opt into the points program. You had to purchase a minimum number of points at a crazy price ($13000 was thrown at as the minimum, some have gotten in as low as 10K). The value proposition really isn't there for existing owners to opt into the program.

To make their points program more palatable for sale, HPP owners have the ability to book units within the "legacy" system at 6 months. Because they can't just rob inventory from the "legacy system", legacy owners can also book HPP units at 6 months out. I have booked a few HPP reservations (6 nights without a Saturday is a sweet spot). Since the buy in is so high to get into the HPP product, there has been a limited number of owners in the new system and so we really haven't seen a decrease in availability.

I don't think a whole lot changes for anyone for 12-18 months.

I think the unsold point allocations (Breckenridge for sure), will get sold as HPP.

I don't see a reason from Hyatt's perspective to allow existing Welk Owners to book into Hyatt without buying into it (the inventory in Welk just isn't that appealing outside of the ski properties to most Hyatt owners).

Does Welk have RoFR on sales? If so, Hyatt could RoFR points contracts and take point allotments from the more desirable properties to be sold as points in HPP.

Most Welk listings I see on eBay go for nothing, so that is a really cheap way for Hyatt to build up decent inventory in their points product.

You get a deed with points attached and it's in a trust. There is a line in the contract that states Welk can adjust the points required for units by at most 5% a year (I believe). Although they haven't increased the initially assigned point amounts in 15 years.
They limit the amount of points that can be sold to the amount of total intervals in the trust. So a two bedroom at 240k points is one unit with 52 intervals a year. I can't do the math on that but you get the idea.

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