he now has to eat 800 calories a day less than a typical man his size

[vacationhopeful]

Stress is a major health issue. Does that add to a weight issues or is bad genes? Does an emotionally unhappy person have MORE stress? A stressed out person have worst sleep habits? People with poor sleep, cycle around to eating more and then, gaining more weight?

Or does STRESS cause people to generate and hold onto more FAT?

 

[ace2000]

Why the obesity epidemic? While probably not due to any single cause, a major factor is the modern day production of corn fructose syrup which has made sugar cheap. Easy access to more calories.

There's going to be a ton of opinions out there about the current obesity problem in the US, and there's probably several correct answers. I'm with you though, sugar is a big problem. The more sugar you eat, the hungrier it makes you in the end, and many don't get that coorelation.

The carbohydrates found in sugar (and junk food) are so quickly digested that it gives you a very addictive feeling of satisfaction. We have learned over the past decade that eating rapidly digested carbs results in sudden spikes of blood glucose (sugar) and insulin levels that adversely effect human metabolism and will ultimately lead to health risks.

 

[WinniWoman]

I don't eat sugar and only limited fruit as well because of sugar. I don't snack. I don't eat after 6pm.

I will say that something I do is I use a small plate (salad type plate) for dinner.

Which brings me to another thing- does anyone else feel that eating such a small dinner, it isn't even worth cooking if you are only two people?

I always cook. Heck- even making a cup of rice (brown, of course)- that lasts us like 2-3 dinners. Or I freeze some food, too.

The other thing is it takes less than 5 minutes to eat which doesn't make it seem worth the effort. Crazy.

But- I still do. I also have been buying some of those lean cuisines for times I don't have anything precooked and that keeps portions in check.

 

[WinniWoman]

Here's another thing. The PA at my doctors office told me that when I drink my glass of water 1/2 hour before dinner (I drink 8 per day) that I should also take a fiber pill like Citrucel to help me feel more full and because the bad cholesterol enters the small intestine at night and this would help that.

So I have been doing this religiously. No way makes me feel full. Down the line we will see what it does for my cholesterol.

My good cholesterol is very good but with the bad cholesterol my overall cholesterol is high.

Must be those lunch salads

 

[heathpack]

I don't eat sugar and only limited fruit as well because of sugar. I don't snack. I don't eat after 6pm.

I will say that something I do is I use a small plate (salad type plate) for dinner.

Which brings me to another thing- does anyone else feel that eating such a small dinner, it isn't even worth cooking if you are only two people?

I always cook. Heck- even making a cup of rice (brown, of course)- that lasts us like 2-3 dinners. Or I freeze some food, too.

The other thing is it takes less than 5 minutes to eat which doesn't make it seem worth the effort. Crazy.

But- I still do. I also have been buying some of those lean cuisines for times I don't have anything precooked and that keeps portions in check.

Interestingly, I don't particularly avoid sugar (although I don't eat much on the bike, when I do eat, sugar is the best fuel. Plus sugar is best form of carb for me in my recovery drinks). I really love fruit and want the nutrition contained in it. Quite honestly I try not to limit foods that contain phytonutrients, antioxidants, etc, even when they come bundled with sugar or fat calories. Lots of fruits, veg, and nuts. Yes nuts! Right now I have cashews, peanuts, almonds, walnuts, pecans, and sunflower seeds on-hand. I probably eat 2-3 different nuts per day- in my lunch salad, for a snack, in my oatmeal. Mmm.

I eat after 6pm but delay starting feeding for the day as long as possible. On non-workout days, I'm fasting from 7 or 8pm until 9 or 10 the following morning. Helps me limit calories. I go to bed around 9pm so I eat pretty close to bedtime.

I cook a lot but frequently it's simple things. We may cook once and eat the same thing 3-4 days in a row, which simplifies cooking & shopping and minimizes weeknight stress.

Along this vein, we're pretty likely to eat white rice because it cooks faster. Even though we both like it just fine. It's also important to be practical on a weeknight when you're pressed for time.

The one thing that you do that I'll avoid is the Lean Cuisine thing. I just am really leery of processed foods. I'm not sure there's any harm in a Lean Cuisine but Id rather pick up a salad somewhere or eat something that I stashed in the freezer like some chili or even just take 5 minutes to cook some eggs & toast.

It's interesting to hear the variety of things people do. I'm enthusiastic about it all. Because I like to eat.

 

[klpca]

I have three adult children - one is overweight, two are not. As kids they ate the same diet, and had nearly the same lifestyle - the thinner two loved sports, the other one didn't but danced instead - and for sure they ate the same things because this mama didn't make special meals, and daddy pretty much made sure that there were no leftovers, . In my mind this has to be biological in nature. The overweight kid feels really bad about weight and diets all the time, goes to the gym three or four times a week (does spinning!) and still dances - and it's not working. In fact I think that having to live with the stress of trying to lose weight has to be worse than anything. Luckily our family is non-judgemental. I can't imagine having to live with that too.

We have obese people in our family on both sides. I am thin, my husband tends to carry extra weight but can lose if easily with a little diet/exercise modification. (IPA is his downfall). It seems like some people are successful with permanent weight loss but in my personal experience they tend to be those who are like my husband (it comes off rather easily so maintenance is easier - my friend Sue falls into this category) or those who make it a personal mission to maintain the weight loss. Most of my friends who have dieted eventually cannot maintain the lifestyle required to keep off the weight. I wouldn't be able to do it, honestly. My motivation would wane somewhere along the way. I am impressed with people who can focus and remain motivated for the rest of their lives. As someone who lives with a chronic medical condition that requires a severe reduction of alcohol intake, I can tell you that - going into my fourth year of dealing with it - it is only slightly easier to accept it, and only the fear of death keeps me from having an occasional second glass of wine when I am out with friends.

 

[x3 skier]

Interesting discussion.

One thing I look at when there's some claim that "biology" explains differences in people is to look at other mammals in nature to see if similar situations arise.

Let's take "Obesity" vs "Slimness", for example. All hippos are fat and I've never seen a skinny one (that wasn't sick) so that set of mammals are just naturally fat like Blue whales. OTOH, I haven't seen a fat gorilla or Orca so that set of mammals also seem to have a "standard" weight. Likewise, the only really fat mice I've seen are those force fed or otherwise abnormally treated or given a "fattening" diet in lab experiments. Not that I've seen all hippos, gorillas or mice etc. for sure.

So my inclination is that human beings, being mammals, have some standard weight that they, given a normal diet and mobility, would achieve and maintain. I would also assume the "standard" BMI tables would reflect this.

I have no scientific references (or non scientific) for my thoughts, just a recognition that physiologically (not mentally) speaking people are just mammals and probably react the same way to food intake and mobility as other mammals.

No clue if this scientifically valid but it does make sense to my way or reasoning. And this sample of one, me, was able to lose 30 lbs and not gain it back for over 20 years now by changes in diet and a small change in exercise habits.

Cheers

 

[DeniseM]

But if you told me square dancing was the secret to a long life, sorry I'd choose to die young! Life is indeed too short, we should all just savor whatever it is we like to do.

That's funny - because that's how I feel about riding a bike. (Although I have tremendous admiration for what you have done - it also seems HARD.)

 

[Elan]

That's funny - because that's how I feel about riding a bike. (Although I have tremendous admiration for what you have done - it also seems HARD.)

And that's how I feel about running. I'll run my ass off on a tennis court, but to just go "on a run" somewhere? Never.

 

[clifffaith]

But- I still do. I also have been buying some of those lean cuisines for times I don't have anything precooked and that keeps portions in check.

I don't care how healthy a meal I cook, I always end up over eating. But I'm always amazed that when the Lean Cuisine tray is empty, my stomach sees the empty tray and it thinks it is full. Works every time. We really ought to eat more LC than we do -- we both enjoy most of the meals with an Asian flare to them.

I in particular need to take 20-25 pounds off (Cliff always loses when I do without doing a darn thing other than eating what's set in front of him). Three years ago when I first started having back problems I lost 25 pounds, 8 of which have crept back on. Now my pain level is such that I think surgery is looming so I want the extra pounds gone. I say this as I take a break from sightseeing in NYC with a Starbuck's mocha and cookies from Magnolia Bakery by my side. It's tough to give up my sweets. In fact the last couple of times I've lost weight all I did was stop eating sweets -- tells you how many calories I'm taking in from sugary snacks and desserts.

 

[heathpack]

That's funny - because that's how I feel about riding a bike. (Although I have tremendous admiration for what you have done - it also seems HARD.)

It is actually really hard. But exhilarating too.

I didn't start out this way, at first I just rode casually around. But then as I got fitter and things became easier on the bike, I wanted to do more challenging rides. Then when I mastered those and I started working with my coach, he would give me these totally bad a$$ workouts and it was an amazing feeling to be able to do them. That's where I am now. He sends me my schedule a week or two in advance and sometimes I look at a workout and think, "that's impossible, no way I can do that". But I trust him now, if he thinks I can do it, I'm willing to try. I'm frequently surprised by what I can do. But I also understand that he intentionally works me to failure, because he learns a lot from the data to see what I can't do, too. Its no biggie to not be able to complete a workout, you just have to wrap your head around that being ok.

Anyway, a fascinating process. Hard but really really fun too!

 

["Roger"]

Here is a companion piece to the article linked to by the OP. It contains a lot of information about dieting.

Some reflections. There is a lot of discouraging news about dieting. While my own prior post (and this one) is pessimistic, still, my temperament is more aligned with heathpack. One should not let these articles engender a totally defeatist attitude. That can only make things worse (more weight gain yet). My suggestions are to adopt some modest goals.

Be careful about adding even more weight. Vacation times are often when gains come. If you have gained even a few more pounds, do what one can to get those off. In other words, try to hold the line.

If you are interested in weight loss, don't try to lose massive amounts of weight. If one is going to try to lose some weight, go for just a few pounds.

I can't say enough about the benefits of even modest exercise. Even if it doesn't result in weight loss, you will be able to do more things and that will result in an improvement in your quality of life.

Spend more times outdoors. Take walks with your kids or grandkids. In the spirit of disclosure, I am on the board of a privately financed arboretum. Most of our emphasis is on educational programs. One thing that more and more research is showing is that more contact with nature promotes mental health and a sense of well being. Preservation of nature is not just about saving the earth. It is about our own well being.

End of sermonette.

 

[Elan]

Interesting discussion.

One thing I look at when there's some claim that "biology" explains differences in people is to look at other mammals in nature to see if similar situations arise.

Let's take "Obesity" vs "Slimness", for example. All hippos are fat and I've never seen a skinny one (that wasn't sick) so that set of mammals are just naturally fat like Blue whales. OTOH, I haven't seen a fat gorilla or Orca so that set of mammals also seem to have a "standard" weight. Likewise, the only really fat mice I've seen are those force fed or otherwise abnormally treated or given a "fattening" diet in lab experiments. Not that I've seen all hippos, gorillas or mice etc. for sure.

So my inclination is that human beings, being mammals, have some standard weight that they, given a normal diet and mobility, would achieve and maintain. I would also assume the "standard" BMI tables would reflect this.

I have no scientific references (or non scientific) for my thoughts, just a recognition that physiologically (not mentally) speaking people are just mammals and probably react the same way to food intake and mobility as other mammals.

No clue if this scientifically valid but it does make sense to my way or reasoning. And this sample of one, me, was able to lose 30 lbs and not gain it back for over 20 years now by changes in diet and a small change in exercise habits.

Cheers

There are certainly enough genetic-based differences between members of a common species that would indicate that classification by species is likely not logical. If I'm 6 ft tall and have blue eyes, and you're 5'5" and have brown eyes, why can't I be fat and you be skinny?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obesity-gene-discovery-could-lead-to-new-treatments/

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-05/04/fat-labradors-obesity-epidemic-gene

 

[heathpack]

Here is a companion piece to the article linked to by the OP. It contains a lot of information about dieting.

Interesting article. It contains some of the things that I find very misleading about these types of articles.

For example, the section where they mention a negligible effect from building muscle- a man adds 4.5 pounds of muscle and he "only" burns 24 extra calories per day. Um, 24 calories x 365 days per year 8760 cal/yr. Which is metabolically equivalent to 2.5 pounds a year in theory. So if that guy did nothing other than build and maintain 4.5 pounds of muscle, he might lose 2.5 pounds per year. We do this kind of thing all the time in bike racing, we look for the marginal gain. Which means I might make 10 small changes to what I'm doing that non-racing cyclists all claim is insignificant. But the cumulative effect of those changes is indeed significant and the "cost" for the tiny changes is often very low.

Then there's the part about your muscles becoming more efficient at processing energy when you lose weight- which means that you burn less calories. I look at that and see opportunity- awesome, I can now ride longer, perform better in an endurance event. Its not that I "have to do more exercise", its that I have a genetic gift and maybe if I'm enough of an outlier with that I can actually do something extraordinary like set a world record or complete an Ironman or swim across the English Channel.

Sure looked at in one way, my physiology can be a handicap in life- I'm prone to put on weight more readily than many other people. But the flip side of that is that that same physiology is maybe a genetic gift that I can exploit to be able to compete in endurance events.

 

[VegasBella]

There's a follow-up article by another NY Times writer. It address some of the issues commented on in this thread:

men with severe obesity have only one chance in 1,290 of reaching the normal weight range within a year; severely obese women have one chance in 677.

Whether weight is lost slowly or quickly has no effect on later regain.

a 2006 study found that elite athletes who competed for Finland in such weight-conscious sports were three times more likely to be obese by age 60 than their peers who competed in other sports.

Girls who labeled themselves as dieters in early adolescence were three times more likely to become overweight over the next four years. Another study found that adolescent girls who dieted frequently were 12 times more likely than non-dieters to binge two years later.

Mice and rats enjoy the same wide range of foods that we do. When tasty food is plentiful, individual rodents gain different amounts of weight, and the genes that influence weight in people have similar effects in mice. Under stress, rodents eat more sweet and fatty foods. Like us, both laboratory and wild rodents have become fatter over the past few decades.

And the most important part of the article is right here, so important I emboldened it:

Low fitness, smoking, high blood pressure, low income and loneliness are all better predictors of early death than obesity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/opinion/sunday/why-you-cant-lose-weight-on-a-diet.html

FYI - I'm overweight but fit. I exercise a lot and have excellent cardiovascular health. Example, my VO2 Max is optimal for my age. I'm also someone who has successfully lost and kept 40 pounds off. But I can't dip much lower and keep it off. It's very difficult for me to do that.

 

[JudyS]

Heathpack, thanks for the information about what you do to manage hunger.

Nope. I never said any such thing, nor have I told anyone here that they should or could lose weight. All I've said is that telling people that managing their own weight in impossible is counterproductive. If you had told ME that and I had listened, you would have been doing me a disservice...

I'm not sure what your position is, then. Do you think almost all people are able to manage their weight if they try hard enough? Or, that only a few small number are able to? Or somewhere in between?

I believe some people can lose some weight and keep it off, especially if they started off with a lifestyle that promotes fat gain. But, I think almost no one can kept off more than 40 pounds for more than five years. So, some people will be able to say, lose 35 pounds and keep it off for the rest of their lives, depending on how motivated they are and how bad their lifestyle was to begin with.

It is probably possible to predict how much success a person will have in losing some weight and keeping it off. Possibly, something as simple as monitoring the person's basal body temperature when they diet would indicate, within a week or two, how well dieting will work for that person. Also, measuring certain hormones can tell whether the person is starting out at, above, or below their setpoint. But no one is currently doing this. Suppose we eventually can identify people who are almost certain to fail at dieting -- people whose bodies are below their setpoint, say. Would you still object to telling those people not to diet?

As for whether convincing you not to diet would have been a disservice or not, I think it's too soon to tell. You've done extremely well with weight loss so far, but you hopefully have many, many years left in your life. We don't know what will happen down the road.

 

[JudyS]

...
Let's take "Obesity" vs "Slimness", for example. All hippos are fat and I've never seen a skinny one (that wasn't sick) so that set of mammals are just naturally fat like Blue whales. OTOH, I haven't seen a fat gorilla or Orca so that set of mammals also seem to have a "standard" weight. Likewise, the only really fat mice I've seen are those force fed or otherwise abnormally treated or given a "fattening" diet in lab experiments. Not that I've seen all hippos, gorillas or mice etc. for sure....

Mice vary tremendously in weight due to genetics. For example, "ob/ob" mice have two copies of an allele (a version of a gene) that causes obesity, and they are tremendously fat. There are other genetically obese mice, as well. Rats also come in genetically obese strains -- Zucker rats are one type.

The numbers of gorillas and orcas are quite small, and small populations tend not to have much genetic diversity. I would expect humans to have much more diversity than gorillas, and orcas. For example, gorillas and orcas all have pretty much the same pigmentation, but humans don't. (There are actually several species of hippo, but each has a pretty small population.)

 

[heathpack]

Heathpack, thanks for the information about what you do to manage hunger.
I'm not sure what your position is, then. Do you think almost all people are able to manage their weight if they try hard enough? Or, that only a few small number are able to? Or somewhere in between?

I believe some people can lose some weight and keep it off, especially if they started off with a lifestyle that promotes fat gain. But, I think almost no one can kept off more than 40 pounds for more than five years. So, some people will be able to say, lose 35 pounds and keep it off for the rest of their lives, depending on how motivated they are and how bad their lifestyle was to begin with.

It is probably possible to predict how much success a person will have in losing some weight and keeping it off. Possibly, something as simple as monitoring the person's basal body temperature when they diet would indicate, within a week or two, how well dieting will work for that person. Also, measuring certain hormones can tell whether the person is starting out at, above, or below their setpoint. But no one is currently doing this. Suppose we eventually can identify people who are almost certain to fail at dieting -- people whose bodies are below their setpoint, say. Would you still object to telling those people not to diet?

As for whether convincing you not to diet would have been a disservice or not, I think it's too soon to tell. You've done extremely well with weight loss so far, but you hopefully have many, many years left in your life. We don't know what will happen down the road.

My position is that humans did not evolve to be overweight and until very recently, most people were not overweight. It's very likely therefore that weight is a managable thing for most people.

Scientists that study people who lost & then regained weight are not doing the world a disservice because there's lots to learn from observing both how things go wrong & go right for whatever it is you're trying to figure out. Sometimes scientists draw the wrong conclusions from their own work perhaps, but looking at people on both sides of the coin is the right thing to do.

Laypeople however (mostly mainstream media) sometimes take the results of various scientific studies and draw wrong conclusions or overly simplistic interpretations of the data. They write articles that may be well-meaning but are often intended to be splashy and to sell papers or win awards.

Since I think that most people are capable of being non-overweight, I personally think the best message to send out is not that it's hopeless. Maybe it's not easy. Maybe it will be immensely frustrating. Maybe it will take you years to figure out. Maybe you will have concurrent medical or sociological constraints that will prevent you from losing weight or maintaining that weight loss. If you don't ever master it, don't make yourself crazy over it. It's worse to be miserable because you can't lose weight than it is to be overweight.

I am not here telling anyone what they should do. I am just saying that IMO its wrong to limit people's sense of what's possible.

Personally I have some opinions about what it would take for most people but those are really just speculations because although I have a very solid background in nutrition & physiology (and a newfound understanding of exercise physiology), weight loss is not my field. Mostly though I think what it really will take are dozens of changes to the way people live & how they view food and physical activity, and honestly I think there's a good chance that most people would be unwilling or unable to change things to that extent. But that's not the same as it being virtually impossible to manage weight.

PS My lifestyle pre-weight loss was typical American, but not terrible. Basically I ate too much food and my food choices were based mostly on palatibility. I did zero exercise. And I was not good at managing stress.

 

[x3 skier]

Mice vary tremendously in weight due to genetics. For example, "ob/ob" mice have two copies of an allele (a version of a gene) that causes obesity, and they are tremendously fat. There are other genetically obese mice, as well. Rats also come in genetically obese strains -- Zucker rats are one type.

Interesting. So really fat mice species have a fat gene? I look at that as another example of uniformity among species in nature, given similar environmental factors such as diet and mobility.

I also would think that if obesity was genetically determined, this would have been found out by now. If it has and I missed it, there's a fortune to be made developing genetic analysis and treatment. If it hasn't, I bet it's not for lack of looking.

Cheers

 

[WinniWoman]

These babies are coming out bigger and bigger. Maybe it's the vitamins the moms take? I was just reading about a 13 pound infant!

I think my son was 8 lbs 11 ounces.

 

[VegasBella]

My position is that humans did not evolve to be overweight and until very recently, most people were not overweight. It's very likely therefore that weight is a managable thing for most people.

That doesn't actually follow.

For example, if throughout most of human history that:

- high calorie foods were relatively scarce (meat dairy sugar and oil were rare and/or expensive, resource-intensive, etc)

- sedentary lifestyles were relatively rare (before industrial revolution there was a lack of technology to do most manual tasks thus humans had to do more physical work on a daily basis)

- obesity level weight-gain during childhood and early adulthood was rare (example, in most of history children did manual labor and did not have free public education which prioritizes deskwork over PE and recess - studies suggest that weight-gain in childhood or early adulthood influences long-term weight)

- dieting was not a thing (see the 2nd article I posted)

- obesity or lack of it is not a good predictor of evolutionary fitness (eg plenty of fat people live quite a while and certainly long enough to reproduce AND some human populations DID "evolve to be overweight" due to cold climate)

 

[Elan]

Interesting. So really fat mice species have a fat gene? I look at that as another example of uniformity among species in nature, given similar environmental factors such as diet and mobility.

I also would think that if obesity was genetically determined, this would have been found out by now. If it has and I missed it, there's a fortune to be made developing genetic analysis and treatment. If it hasn't, I bet it's not for lack of looking.

Cheers

X3, did you read the two links I posted? I think you'd find them interesting.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[x3 skier]

X3, did you read the two links I posted? I think you'd find them interesting.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Interesting CBS article.

"The gene glitch doesn't explain all obesity. It was found in 44 percent of Europeans but only 5 percent of blacks, so other genes clearly are at work, and food and exercise still matter."

Looks like they've found something but not the "answer" as noted in the article comments. If the "Gene glitch" was the "answer" I would think 44% of Europeans would be obese ever since there were "Europeans" and only 5% of Blacks would be obese which is definitely not my observational experience or the historical record. OTOH, although never having been to Africa and spending much time in Europe, photos etc of Black Africans certainly do not have a propensity toward obesity.

All in all, it seems to me while there may be some genetic effect, diet and exercise are much larger effects on one's weight otherwise almost half of Americans of "European" descent would be obese and less than 5% of Americans of African descent would be obese.

In any event, I'm happy with my health and my ability to control my weight however it happens

The "answer" lies somewhere but it will likely be found long after I'm gone.

Cheers

 

[Glynda]

Genetics

Interesting. So really fat mice species have a fat gene? I look at that as another example of uniformity among species in nature, given similar environmental factors such as diet and mobility.

I also would think that if obesity was genetically determined, this would have been found out by now. If it has and I missed it, there's a fortune to be made developing genetic analysis and treatment. If it hasn't, I bet it's not for lack of looking.

Cheers

I think you've missed it! Or at least that genetics influence metabolism among other things that can lead to obesity.

 

[Tia]

I think there are way more processed foods being consumed, also genetically engineered crops , plus additives being consumed then 50 years ago.

Having never in my life had a problem w/extra pounds found it shocking to reach my middle 40's when I started experiencing migraines (perimenopausal ) stopped w/hormone patches. Then too with no changes to anything I was doing/eating extra pounds started showing up:annoyed:. Also watched my female friends of similar age add extra lbs they'd never had before