Giving out COVID vaccine today

[nerodog]

You don’t think it’s deplorable that seniors had to wait hours on a first come first serve basis for the vaccine? Wow.

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Its absolutely deplorable Ken and we should all be protesting this. There needs to be a system in place never mind this disorganization!!!

 

[nerodog]

B

So much for accuracy. Here’s just one of many articles that show pics of people waiting in Florida for vaccines. I don’t see them waiting in cars...

Florida's decision to vaccinate seniors first causes distribution 'chaos'

In other coronavirus news: A Wisconsin hospital worker destroyed 500 doses, California is overwhelmed with a hospitalization surge, and the rich got richer during the pandemic.

www.nbcnews.com

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Should seniors have to wait at all ? In cars, in lines ? Appointments would be beneficial for our seniors. Other countries like Israel lead the way in vaccines . Perhaps we should study their methodology .

 

[Miss Marty]

Nursing homes are a top priority for Covid vaccines. But vaccinating everyone won’t be simple.

Initial supplies won’t be enough to cover all the nation’s estimated 21 million health care workers and 3 million long-term care residents.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Luanne]

B



Should seniors have to wait at all ? In cars, in lines ? Appointments would be beneficial for our seniors. Other countries like Israel lead the way in vaccines . Perhaps we should study their methodology .

It seems to be a state by state, and even county by county decision on how to administer. We've heard from several people in Florida. One county had people waiting in line. Other counties allowed them to make appointments, by phone or online. In New Mexico we can register to be notified when the vaccine is available for us. A friend of mine who is already a patient at the Pulmonary Care Unit at one of the hospitals has been scheduled for a vaccine next week. Besides being a patient she is 76 years old.

 

[nerodog]

It seems to be a state by state, and even county by county decision on how to administer. We've heard from several people in Florida. One county had people waiting in line. Other counties allowed them to make appointments, by phone or online. In New Mexico we can register to be notified when the vaccine is available for us. A friend of mine who is already a patient at the Pulmonary Care Unit at one of the hospitals has been scheduled for a vaccine next week. Besides being a patient she is 76 years old.

I agree. I'm from Mass originally and I have continued to receive updates and how the rollout will work. I know they expected more vaccines but haven't arrived yet.

 

[tlwmkw]

The rollout has been very disorganized. It’s left to the states and counties to work out how to distribute vaccines and some were not prepared well. A centralized plan with support would have helped.
The Florida plan to go against CDC and give vaccine to those most at risk makes some sense since they are the ones most likely to be hospitalized and die but if you herd them all together on a first come first served basis (with some camping out overnight) then it negates the benefit of this approach since you are exposing many of them to the virus that the vaccine is trying to avoid.

 

[rapmarks]

Taking appointments today in lee county Florida and the number doesn’t work

 

[jabberwocky]

B



Should seniors have to wait at all ? In cars, in lines ? Appointments would be beneficial for our seniors. Other countries like Israel lead the way in vaccines . Perhaps we should study their methodology .

Actually I believe Israel started out with a prioritization system with appointments only. They discovered that they were ending up throwing away good vaccine because of no-shows (it can only be out of the refrigerator so long before having to be discarded?).

Their system now is that anyone can get the vaccine (as long as you are older than 16 or 18 depending on the vaccine) - it’s on a first-come-first served basis (of course they do go out to nursing homes to deliver it). Wasted vaccine has now gone down to zero.

It seems to be working for them.

 

[rapmarks]

Five thousand doses and tried to make an appointment on a three way call with my insurance calling too. Got the message number was not working and 35 minutes in saw on news that all five thousands slots were taken

 

[Ken555]

Actually I believe Israel started out with a prioritization system with appointments only. They discovered that they were ending up throwing away good vaccine because of no-shows (it can only be out of the refrigerator so long before having to be discarded?).

Their system now is that anyone can get the vaccine (as long as you are older than 16 or 18 depending on the vaccine) - it’s on a first-come-first served basis (of course they do go out to nursing homes to deliver it). Wasted vaccine has now gone down to zero.

It seems to be working for them.

Interesting. Do you have a link?

I’ve read some, though not a lot, about the Israeli rollout of the vaccine. I don’t see any mention of first come first served. However, I do see this:

Israel’s vaccine success is made possible by its small size (slighter larger than New Jersey) and the efficiencies of its nationalized health system, in which all 9 million citizens hold identity cards and register their electronic medical files with one of the country’s four national HMOs.

Israel also maintains a national vaccination registry, first designed for childhood vaccinations, that will be used in the coming weeks to monitor immediate and long-term progress of the coronavirus vaccine program.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-vaccinates-the-most-people/2021/01/04/23b20882-4e73-11eb-a1f5-fdaf28cfca90_story.html

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[nerodog]

Actually I believe Israel started out with a prioritization system with appointments only. They discovered that they were ending up throwing away good vaccine because of no-shows (it can only be out of the refrigerator so long before having to be discarded?).

Their system now is that anyone can get the vaccine (as long as you are older than 16 or 18 depending on the vaccine) - it’s on a first-come-first served basis (of course they do go out to nursing homes to deliver it). Wasted vaccine has now gone down to zero.

It seems to be working for them.

I'm amazed that people wouldn't want to keep their appointments. I prefer an appointment system than a free for all and first come first serve.

 

[Ken555]

FWIW, Los Angeles County announced this today:

Vaccinations are proceeding throughout Los Angeles County as we continue to build capacity. As of Saturday, January 2, the County received a total of 189,995 doses of the Pfizer vaccine and 96,390 doses had been administered to frontline healthcare workers at acute care hospitals. As of Saturday, the County received 81,571 Moderna doses, of which 22,221 were administered to staff and residents at skilled nursing facilities as well as EMT's and paramedics.

The next Pfizer allocation, 82,745 doses, coming this week, will primarily be used to administer second doses to the first group of healthcare workers vaccinated in mid-December. We also are expecting to receive 50,700 Moderna doses, which will be administered primarily to priority groups within Tier 2 of Phase 1A. Tier 2 includes healthcare workers at urgent care and primary care clinics, home healthcare workers and healthcare field workers who face a high risk of exposure.

Some of you will appreciate the subject of today's LA County health release:

Public Health Urges Everyone to Take Personal Responsibility and Follow the Rules as COVID-19 Spreads Rapidly Across L.A. County

 

[Cornell]

FWIW, Los Angeles County announced this today:



Some of you will appreciate the subject of today's LA County health release:

Doesn't everyone appreciate & believe in personal responsibility?

 

[jabberwocky]

Interesting. Do you have a link?

I’ve read some, though not a lot, about the Israeli rollout of the vaccine. I don’t see any mention of first come first served. However, I do see this:

There are still appointments in the Israeli system and structure, but they are focusing on minimizing waste.

The article is behind a paywall so here is a relevant snippet:

"Pfizer’s vaccine, made with partner BioNTech SE, must be administered within a five-day window after it leaves the main storage center, and six hours once out of a fridge, according to Israeli authorities, who say they are following Pfizer’s rules.

To cope with that short shelf life and help authorities reach less populated and isolated areas, Israel began splitting some of Pfizer’s 1,000-dose packages into smaller consignments of a few hundred each. The system, in which workers repackage the vials in workstations within massive freezers, was approved by Pfizer before being implemented, Mr. Edelstein said.

Israel also enacted a policy that allows vaccine centers facing soon-to-be wasted surplus to inoculate anyone who shows up. This has led to scenes around the country of citizens both young and middle-aged queuing up at vaccine centers, hoping to get an early shot."

Israel Vaccinates More Than 10% of Its Population in Two Weeks

Israel has inoculated nearly half of its most at-risk citizens and more than 10% of the population in two weeks as authorities accelerate a Covid-19 vaccination drive after early hiccups had led to wasted shots.

www.wsj.com

 

[Ken555]

There are still appointments in the Israeli system and structure, but they are focusing on minimizing waste.

The article is behind a paywall so here is a relevant snippet:

Israel Vaccinates More Than 10% of Its Population in Two Weeks

Israel has inoculated nearly half of its most at-risk citizens and more than 10% of the population in two weeks as authorities accelerate a Covid-19 vaccination drive after early hiccups had led to wasted shots.

www.wsj.com

Yes, I had read about them repackaging the vaccine for deployment, but this is the first I’ve seen re first come first serve. It does make sense.

Note this is very different than the chaos that happened in Florida.

FYI, for those with Apple News you can read this article at:

Israel Vaccinates More Than 10% of Its Population in Two Weeks — The Wall Street Journal

Israel has inoculated nearly half of its most at-risk citizens and more than 10% of the population in two weeks as authorities accelerate a Covid-19 vaccination drive after early hiccups had led to wasted shots.

apple.news

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[jabberwocky]

I'm amazed that people wouldn't want to keep their appointments. I prefer an appointment system than a free for all and first come first serve.

All appointment systems are a form of first-come, first-serve. You have to get in-line to register for the appointment, whether that is done in-person or online, the principle is still the same.

Just ask any dentist how many patients are no-shows or will cancel at the last minute. The same thing happens with vaccines, people don't have as much of a sense of urgency if they think they can just no-show and book another appointment. The vaccination clinic needs to have enough vaccine for each person with an appointment (plus a bit in case of errors). If people don't show, then that vaccine gets wasted.

By having people line-up you ensure that they are physically present to get the vaccine and can effectively eliminate any wasted product. You also encourage more people who will benefit from the shot the most to line up as they are willing to bear the cost (in terms of their time). Those with lower risk profiles can choose to wait if they desire or are happy sitting at home. It's also fairly egalitarian as you can't easily buy your way to the front of the line.

It doesn't mean that those who can't wait in line (i.e., nursing home residents) won't get priority - they do, but via other channels.

Sometimes it seems we are so worried about not giving vaccines out to the wrong people that we forget the overarching goal is to beat this disease. The vaccine is a precious resource, and we should all want to maximize the efficiency of delivery.

 

[Ken555]

Sometimes it seems we are so worried about not giving vaccines out to the wrong people that we forget the overarching goal is to beat this disease. The vaccine is a precious resource, and we should all want to maximize the efficiency of delivery.

I don’t think this applies to those of us on TUG who contribute to these threads. I think we just want it distributed to those who need it most first, while also not wasting any. We can do both, and keep people safe in the interim by hopefully not requiring them to spend hours waiting for it.


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[jabberwocky]

I don’t think this applies to those of us on TUG who contribute to these threads. I think we just want it distributed to those who need it most first, while also not wasting any. We can do both, and keep people safe in the interim by hopefully not requiring them to spend hours waiting for it.

The comment was focused more on society in general (mainly the media I find) who are so worried about "fairness", even if it leads to suboptimal social outcomes.

There isn't a perfect way to do any of this, and what we are seeing is the result of 50 (well 51 if you include DC) experiments being run simultaneously. There are bound to be many messes along the way.

 

[Cornell]

We need vaccines available 24/7 ...not everyone is available during M-F day schedule. Some interesting scheduling tidbits in here

Residents in more than 100 Connecticut nursing homes have completed their first round of COVID-19 vaccine; state on course to meet mid-January goal

More than 100 nursing homes are on track to complete the first round of COVID-19 vaccinations by the end of the year, putting the state’s goal of completing the first round of vaccinations in…

www.courant.com

 

[beejaybeeohio]

I can think of many ways that vaccine distribution could be expedited.
There has to be a production line procedure as opposed to how CVS handles flu and other inoculations, where even though appointments can be made, it typically takes 15 or more minutes before one gets their shot.
Allow eligible folks to reserve a time slot on a given day- say 45 people between 8-9 am. Also have a stand-by list so for every missed "appointment" others can be notified and fill in at day's end. I recall when my kids weere young and the MMR shot first came out, heading to our nearby shopping mall and waiting in a snaking line for them to get their jab.
If the Cleveland Museum of Art can handle timed ticket holders for special exhibitions, surely our health care providers can develop a similar system!

 

[DannyTS]

I am not posting this to say that the vaccine is dangerous (I will be vaccinated when eligible) but to give an example that people at ANY age die, sometimes of unknown causes even when their health was thought to be perfect. Of course media does not cover this but any young person who died from (or with) Covid was front page everywhere. Life is so fragile, I was reading that the Monday following spring time changes is associated with a 24% increase in heart attacks! Can one imagine the damage done by the lockdowns, potential bankruptcies, lack of hospital care back in the spring and the sleepless nights due not to the virus but to the over the board coverage? How many of those ended up being counted as excess deaths due to the virus?

Woman In Portugal Dies After Receiving Pfizer Vaccine

Sonia Azevedo, a mum-of-two had no prior health conditions and hadn’t had any adverse effects after getting the Pfizer jab.

www.theportugalnews.com

75-year-old Israeli man dies 2 hours after getting Covid-19 vaccine

75-year-old from Beit Shean dies after getting Pfizer vaccine. Health Min.: Initial examination shows no link between death and vaccine.

www.israelnationalnews.com

Daylight savings time and myocardial infarction

Background Prior research has shown a transient increase in the incidence of acute myocardial infarction (AMI) after daylight savings time (DST) in the spring as well as a decrease in AMI after returning to standard time in the fall. These findings have not been verified in a broader population...

openheart.bmj.com

 

[DannyTS]

Florida is using now Eventbrite to schedule the appointments. Whatever it works! They also consider everyone over 65 a priority so they have been bumped to the front of the vaccination line. The faster they use what they currently have, the faster they can get new doses.

Florida counties use Eventbrite to schedule COVID-19 vaccine appointments

“This is the only option we have right now.”

www.theverge.com

 

[nerodog]

All appointment systems are a form of first-come, first-serve. You have to get in-line to register for the appointment, whether that is done in-person or online, the principle is still the same.

Just ask any dentist how many patients are no-shows or will cancel at the last minute. The same thing happens with vaccines, people don't have as much of a sense of urgency if they think they can just no-show and book another appointment. The vaccination clinic needs to have enough vaccine for each person with an appointment (plus a bit in case of errors). If people don't show, then that vaccine gets wasted.

By having people line-up you ensure that they are physically present to get the vaccine and can effectively eliminate any wasted product. You also encourage more people who will benefit from the shot the most to line up as they are willing to bear the cost (in terms of their time). Those with lower risk profiles can choose to wait if they desire or are happy sitting at home. It's also fairly egalitarian as you can't easily buy your way to the front of the line.

It doesn't mean that those who can't wait in line (i.e., nursing home residents) won't get priority - they do, but via other channels.

Sometimes it seems we are so worried about not giving vaccines out to the wrong people that we forget the overarching goal is to beat this disease. The vaccine is a precious resource, and we should all want to maximize the efficiency of delivery.

I guess it depends on where you live. With something as serious as a virus I would expect a more systematic approach and tiers of candidates to eliminate this current practice.I understand your point about making appointments. Infact i make appointments way in advance and if I have to cancel I don't wait until the last minute. I'm thinking of someone else bring able to use the slot . Having a few extra on hand is good. It just broke my heart to see all these seniors camping out in lawn chairs and some being turned away on TV. I don't think that's a good system.

 

[nerodog]

I don’t think this applies to those of us on TUG who contribute to these threads. I think we just want it distributed to those who need it most first, while also not wasting any. We can do both, and keep people safe in the interim by hopefully not requiring them to spend hours waiting for it.


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Absolutely..well stated.

 

[bluehende]

It probably is not hard as long as you are willing to set up new systems for vaccinations. The current system cannot absorb hundreds of millions of additional shots. Our state has a good testing system. They set up at empty parking lots all over the state using available workers to man a subset of them to cover the whole state each day within about 20 minutes of every citizen. Depending on the day we have 3 within a couple minutes or at most 20 minutes away. These are simply traffic cones set up in 8 to 10 lanes where you go by a trailer with a generator. Reservations give you a very quick trip through the line in your car where you give them the reservation number and they print out a quick label for your kit that you administer and drop off in a barrel on the way out. This process has taken us 5 to15 minutes. If you do not preregister you do the registration in a single line dedicated for this. At a certain point with the move of a couple cones that line has been closed and other times the non reservation line has gone to 2 trailers instead of one depending on demand. This type of system would work perfectly for vaccination. There are two problems. The minus 80c requirement for Pfizers is a problem depending on the process required after removal from freezer. I think that problem could be overcome in some of the sites to be able to use it. The biggest problem is each site has about 60 people keeping it moving smoothly. Most are pretty non skilled but for vaccination we would need 10 that can administer vaccinations. Since testing is still needed this is a large hire for states with no cash.

At this point the system is testing fast enough to test the whole state every 2 to 3 months.