Future Value of Timeshare - Orlando

[ran-ran]

Lots of great advice

Many individuals have given some awesome advice to the OP and some interesting sidebars on how owning a timeshare may or may not be a benefit. I find that the best solution for anyone that comes to TUG or another important information based website is doing the very first thing by asking for assistance. The help and knowledge offered is top notch by those that are experienced in the field of timeshare buying, selling, renting, trading, etc.

I did notice that the majority of responders tell the OP not to purchase in Orlando. That is not always the case, with knowledge, a person would be able to discover which resorts and weeks are the most popular and are prone to offer the greatest amounts of TPU's and exchange opportunities. This will typically apply to most areas so all the OP needs to do is hold tight, research, read and study and make a decision that will produce a desired result for the specific individual.

Renting your unit does take an effort on the owners part to make the unit rent for a desired amount. I couldn't agree more that a simple two lined craigslist ad most likely will not do it. Be creative, place your notices at multiple locations and be consistent with your efforts.

Regarding RCI, I think that RCI offers a resource that if you inform yourself of the way the system works, it is a benefit to many timeshare owners. Once again, it takes effort to fully understand the benefits that will meet your individual needs and also to fully know the weaknesses of the system. No system is all good nor all bad. I for one, personally like the new TPU system. The ability to exchange a studio for a two bedroom is great, utilize last minute exchanges for multiple week exchanges and to be able to combine for more expensive weeks, not too mention the transparency of the transaction(s).

Anyway, I guess what I am saying, keep learning and maximize the benefits for each opportunity that you involve yourself in.

 

[Carolinian]

TUG is an anomaly. I would agree that TUG attracts mostly exchangers or those who were once exchangers, at least. The same is true of other timeshare message boards. But I suspect that it is not a valid reflection of the proportion of exchangers and own to use members among the entire timeshare population.

On the other hand, as an HOA board member I looked at our own membership at our NC Outer Banks resort. We kept records of what exchange companies people belonged to and also what weeks were put up for exchange or rental each year. A very solid majority of our members did not even belong to an exchange company. Those who exchanged in a given year were under 30%. By far the lowest percentage of exchange company membership was owners of prime weeks. Many of those weeks were still owned by the families which had originally purchased from the developer and they typically jetisoned their exchange membership when the free membership they got with purchase expired and they would have to pay to belong. From talking to other HOA board members and managers on the OBX, our figures were pretty typical for the whole area.

As a former HOA president, I like to talk shop with resort management or on some rare occaisions with HOA board members when I exchange. I particularly enjoyed the experience at a UK resort I had exchanged into where I found that the guy in the next unit was a board member and that they were having a board meeting that weekend. He invited me to a cocktail party the board members had that evening. From some of those discussions, I find that the OBX numbers are not that unusual when compared to European resorts (the main place where I exchange), and indeed in one German resort and also at a French resort, they indicated that the percentage of exchangers among their members was in the single digits.

Now for a dissenting opinion. I couldn't disagree more. While I own where I like to vacation, I've never been to my home resorts and only purchased to trade. In 2012 we'll have 6 trades that we're headed to, pretty much all top of the line resorts. Quite frankly, the only way timesharing makes sense these days is to leverage 1 week into several. The MF's are just too dang high to make one vacation for 1 MF worth the cost. Each vacation of mine next year will have a net cost of about $450 each including cost per TPU and exchange costs. If you only stay where you own, your costs are likely to be 50% to 100% higher. That's a price point where people become disillusioned and want out.

Picking up great TPU producers for pennies on the dollar is the only way to go these days. Having them at locations you'd like to travel to if the ability to trade goes south is sensible, but that's plan B, the fallback position.

I'd love to see a poll here on TUG related to using or trading weeks that people here own. Certainly, most of the conversation seems to center around trading; the best resorts, the best times, and how & when to snag them. I'd be very surprised if the majority of people use the weeks they own rather than trading.

 

[AwayWeGo]

TUG-BBS Terminology.

Picking up great TPU producers for pennies on the dollar is the only way to go these days. Having them at locations you'd like to travel to if the ability to trade goes south is sensible, but that's plan B, the fallback position.

Plab B -- as it's known here on TUG-BBS.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[holoholo]

I just joined TUG and found this thread to be interesting. I am on the board at SDO (Sheraton Desert Oasis) and our statistics are in alignment with Carolinian's comments; most owners do not exchange, they prefer to stay at their home resort instead.
Funny thing is, Interval International frequently offers 2 for 1 exchanges. so, we simply exchanged our SDO week for a week in Maui (Westin Kaanapali Villas North) PLUS a week right back at SDO. Excellent deal!
I believe most disgruntled TS owners are simply unaware of the different ways they could be using their timeshare. TUG is one of the best avenues for educating owners and spreading the word about the great options available.

 

[shar]

Timeshares can still be sold. We just sold one for $4,000 and paid a real estate fee after the sale of $1000. So we had a net $3,000. This unit we owned for 11 years and initially purchased for $3500 + $200 closing costs from the same realtor. We just decided that we did not want to make the drive any longer. We have traded and used in the past. It was a summer beach week in N.C. The buyer already owed a unit there and since their family was growing decided they needed another unit for that specific week. None were for sale that week. We had just been to the resort and mentioned to the realtor that we were thinking of selling. She contacted us when we were back home and the rest is history.

So you can sell a TS, but there are reasons why that might be specific to that resort. This resort is completely sold out has been for years. There are weeks that in the winter you can't give away, but in prime summer time it is a different story. Also there is a maximum $ that you can expect to receive for a unit. So if you buy low, then you can sell low. In this case it cost us $1,200 for ten years of fun. Add that to the MF and we had a deal for each week. When trading the cost was higher because you then have a trade fee involved, but still we are not complaining as many great trades over the years.

Now that we are both retired my husband wants to take advantage of short notice deals and we still have 5 TS.

Shar

 

[gelinasrj]

True Value of Orlando Timeshare

The post by AwayWeGo was interesting regarding the tax value of his resort. It would be great if every Owners Association would challenge their taxes using recent sales as the value basis. If the government entities in Florida found that Time Sahres were not the cash cow for them that they once were, they may be more reluctant to approve new development of time share properties. I really believe the Orlando area is over built and that is one (one of several) thing that is affecting resales. Time share companies need new units to keep increasing their profits. Unfortunately few buyers are aware of TUG and pay the very inflated prices asked by the developers.

 

[theo]

I'm confused...

It would be great if every Owners Association would challenge their taxes using recent sales as the value basis.

My own understanding, one certainly subject to invited correction by anyone offering material facts to the contrary, is that property taxes are assessed based upon the estimated current market value of the physical property itself (i.e., the land, the building(s), the amenities). If that is so, then it would seem to matter not a bit what the widely fluctuating numbers might be on individual resales of individual units.

 

[grgs]

I just joined TUG and found this thread to be interesting. I am on the board at SDO (Sheraton Desert Oasis) and our statistics are in alignment with Carolinian's comments; most owners do not exchange, they prefer to stay at their home resort instead.

Holoholo,

As a multi-week SDO owner, let me say welcome to TUG! There are many SDO owners who regularly participate in the Starwood forum (http://tugbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51). I hope you'll visit us there!

Glorian

 

[Pair-A-Dice]

Signs,

I have just purchased a timeshare in Maui and I plan on using it when I can but also will be renting it out or trading it. I do not think you are a timeshare salesman, but I think you are a well informed timeshare owner. Thank you for all your tips on renting. If you don't mind I would like to take a look at one of your websites to see how you have it set up.

 

[timeos2]

My own understanding, one certainly subject to invited correction by anyone offering material facts to the contrary, is that property taxes are assessed based upon the estimated current market value of the physical property itself (i.e., the land, the building(s), the amenities). If that is so, then it would seem to matter not a bit what the widely fluctuating numbers might be on individual resales of individual units.

Market value is established by looking at multiple factors. One big one is hands off resales (not in involving the developer or association). So recorded resales by individual buyers / sellers do play a large part in the process.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Zero Dollars & Zero Cents ?

Market value is established by looking at multiple factors. One big one is hands off resales (not in involving the developer or association). So recorded resales by individual buyers / sellers do play a large part in the process.

Including giveaways & deedbacks ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[AwayWeGo]

Something Very Special, For Sure.

TUG is an anomaly.

. . . not that there's anything wrong with that.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Gophesjo]

So relative to the value equation for Orlando or anywhere - there is a bronze week ocean front unit at Marriott's Ocean Watch (acknowledged by TUG users as one of the finest TS resorts in the country) on the Rentals Offered thread on this Board right now - with no takers at $399. Rental value less than MF's (by at least 60%) suggests that that TS week has negative value. Don't know what else the owner did to try to rent it out, but this situation does highlight the whole valuation issue.

 

[K2Quick]

When you buy a car I expect most of your think that you will sell it for more than what you paid for it.

I've never met anyone who thinks that. I'm sure they exist.

 

[theo]

Are you quite SURE about this viewpoint / position?

Market value is established by looking at multiple factors. One big one is hands off resales (not in involving the developer or association). So recorded resales by individual buyers / sellers do play a large part in the process.

I'm not seeking to argue with you John, but this simply doesn't make numerical sense (...not to me, anyhow). As Alan has pointed out previously, deedbacks and giveaways involve "zero dollars and zero cents".
Are those weeks then somehow regarded as being of "zero value" for tax assessment purposes? In other private resale deeds (...I've just finished reviewing a bunch of my own), the selling figure is very often unidentified anyhow and therefore unknown and unknowable (by the recording County, anyhow), often just identified, for example, as "...ten dollars and other good and valuable consideration". Of what possible use or value or application can that information possibly be to / for tax assessors?

To take this line of reasoning one step further, if every owner deeded his / her week(s) over to a son, or daughter, etc. for one dollar in "consideration", do all of those weeks suddenly have a value of one dollar for tax assessment purposes? I'm guessing not....

Again, I'm not seeking to argue for the sake of argument, I'm just having great difficulty seeing how the figures involved in "hands off" resales can possibly be accurately known (...let alone put into tax calculation / assessment formulae) for a timeshare facility by a County Tax Asssessor. I just dunno....

Methinks this might be a situation calling for a "Plab B" .

 

[lindner]

The future

Getting back to the OP's question of investment value. Those of us who have followed resale for a while will know that five years ago, good units sold for thousands of dollars. Those same units today sell for nothing, nada, zip. I think most would agree that the bad economy pushed foreclosures through the roof, which caused an oversupply of timeshare amid a dearth of buyers. Simple economics; the price fell.

Now what does this portend for the future? What happens when the economy eventually recovers, which could be years from now? What happens when people once again have spending money and foreclosure rates go down? Simple economics would predict prices of resales rise. Blue weeks in Iowa will probably always be worthless, even if the economy soars. Other units will have problems with roof repairs, or bad management. One has to be very careful what they buy. But how about some truly choice units that are selling for close to zero today that sold for thousands five years ago? Everyone on this site can point to some of their favorites, but that is not the point.

The fact is that timeshare developers are in the business of making money off timeshare. Points systems are always looking to add to inventory to sell to suckers. Why build a new building for millions and sell that when you can buy free units and sell those? They aren't doing that now because they are selling the many units that have been returned to them because folks defaulted on mortgages. What about when the economy recovers and this supply diminishes? Perhaps eventually some enterprising company or individual will discover a business model that takes quality timeshare and sells that directly to interested suckers, bypassing the developers.

Investing in timeshare is a very risky play. But if you can pick up quality timeshare, rent it out to cover your fees (don't forget you need to make a profit to cover potential unexpected fees), it may be a good play. To simply say that timeshare is worthless today and extrapolate that to say that it will always be worthless is a mighty strong choice of words.

Lee

 

[JM48]

Other things to consider:

Closing costs. Including any transfer of deed costs, deed filing with the county.
Does the resort charge yearly dues?
Are M/F's paid up to date? I would not take his word for it I would want proof from the resort.

JM

 

[timeos2]

I'm not seeking to argue with you John, but this simply doesn't make numerical sense (...not to me, anyhow). As Alan has pointed out previously, deedbacks and giveaways involve "zero dollars and zero cents".
Are those weeks then somehow regarded as being of "zero value" for tax assessment purposes? In other private resale deeds (...I've just finished reviewing a bunch of my own), the selling figure is very often unidentified anyhow and therefore unknown and unknowable (by the recording County, anyhow), often just identified, for example, as "...ten dollars and other good and valuable consideration". Of what possible use or value or application can that information possibly be to / for tax assessors?

To take this line of reasoning one step further, if every owner deeded his / her week(s) over to a son, or daughter, etc. for one dollar in "consideration", do all of those weeks suddenly have a value of one dollar for tax assessment purposes? I'm guessing not....

Again, I'm not seeking to argue for the sake of argument, I'm just having great difficulty seeing how the figures involved in "hands off" resales can possibly be accurately known (...let alone put into tax calculation / assessment formulae) for a timeshare facility by a County Tax Asssessor. I just dunno....

Methinks this might be a situation calling for a "Plab B" .

Yes, positive as I got to sit in on a meeting between the Association representatives and the County Tax Assessor during part of our 4 year tax challenge/lawsuit. They by law must consider the third party, non-family, non-developer, non-Association sales (if there are 10 or more that meet those limitations) as a reasonable reflection of market value.

That said it is still a guess by the Assessor. Even if there were 10 no cost deeds recorded that wouldn't mean he'd declare the resort to be worthless (thus, no tax due). They get to place a base value on the property and improvements to establish a basis for the annual tax but that, as it turns out, is WAY less than the 50% of developer rate they can use for the initial 10 years of a resorts existence in Florida. There was a tremendous drop in assessed valuation when we first challenged after the 10 years was up and again when we challenged in 2008 with the massive drop in third party resale values.

In fact our tax now stands at just 42% of what it was in 2005 - and going down. That is why it is so surprising to see resorts - many under Developer control - that don't attempt to challenge tax assessments for the owners. They just bill them for what the County assesses. It is a way to potentially get a large savings on annual fees.

 

[rickandcindy23]

A timeshare's value is what you are willing to pay in MF's and special assessments to use it each year.

Owning a timeshare is only wise if you USE it, either through exchange or using that week every year.

How many people come to TUG and say, "I haven't used my timeshare in years, and [some company] keeps calling me to sell it. They want [$800, $1,000,etc] upfront. I don't use it, so I figure I might as well list it."

A whole bunch of those folks own in Orlando, the timeshare capitol for suckers who buy into the line, "You are doing this for your family's future."

I just want to ask, "Why did you buy the timeshare, if you don't use it?" Seriously, I want to say that to these goofballs.

I remember when Animal Kingdom and Islands of Adventure were not opened, and an article in the Orlando Sentinel talked about the doubling crowds at the parks because of these two additions. The salesman asked, "What do you think the value of this timeshare will be, when the demand doubles?" What? :rofl: Very careful not to say the demand for the timeshares in Orlando would double. Even if that were the case, the timeshare developers would double the number of units and resorts for Orlando.

Orlando is a very easy exchange for the times of year we go. I couldn't even bring myself to buy a Marriott for $500.

 

[SknyTXGal]

Wyndham Points from non-Wyndham source

As I mentioned, look to eBay. Do a search for the word "timeshare". Then on the left side of the page find the box to check for Completed Listings. That will filter your search for those timeshares that have been offered for sale and the listing is closed. Now you can sort your search using the control near the top right in the gray bar to Sort by: Price highest first. Now pass over the ones with a red price because they did not sell. The ones with a green price sold for that price. Study this list and you will see what the market considers a valuable timeshare today.

Today I see that Marriott's Frenchman's Cove, St. Thomas, USVI, 2 BR 2 Bath Timeshare - GOLD week sold on Dec. 13 for $10,000. That is the timeshare that recently sold for the most money. I don't know what that timeshare initially may have sold for.

The next one that shows up green is 1.1MILLION WYNDHAM POINTS Gold Crown BONNET CREEK Timeshare RESALE which sold Dec. 17 for $9,997. This is a resort in Orlando which still have some value. How much? Well consider that the person who initially purchased 1.1 million Wyndham points probably paid the developer over $100,000 for them and all they sold for was $9,997.

The next green one is HGVC AT THE LAS VEGAS HILTON 7000 ANNUAL POINTS
which sold for $9,201.77. Someone who owns HGVC would have to tell you what the developer sells that for.

If your friend at work was offering you 1.1 million Wyndham points at Bonnet Creek for $500, I would say that's a real deal. But see, you have to know both the timeshares and the market to figure that out and 1.1 million Wyndham points is way more than you probably need or want for your vacationing use; so you would also need to understand how Wyndham ownership works.

Just study eBay and you will see what is considered valuable in the market. Then, when you see something that looks really good to you, search in the forum to see what the reviews say and search what the other owners have to say about that timeshare.

If you want to see what people are giving away on the market for $1 or even paying all fees and closing for, just reverse the sort by on your eBay search to show lowest price first. They don't start at $1. They start at $.01! The first one I see is THE MANHATTAN CLUB TIMESHARE FOR SALE - DEEDED - SLEEPS 4. Sold Dec. 11 for a penny. Was that a great deal? Manhattan Club has right of first refusal. I wonder if they will exercise it?

A great deal is determined by how valuable the timeshare is to you and your family to use that timeshare or trade with it to other timeshares.

I attended a Wyndham educational update for owners on 12/27/11. I am on a Discovery trial run package. Wyndham is selling 1 Million Wyndham Access Points for $220,000 retail. Wow. Wyndham reps said today that any points purchased via 3rd party resales are Not honored. They specifically mentioned eBay purchases are not usable at any Wyndham resort. They claim that Wyndham has the first right of refusal and the owners must offer to sell the points back to Wyndham. They claimed they will give the owners 50 percent of what they paid for the points. I find this hard to believe. If this is true why would anyone sell the points on eBay for much less than this. They certainly know how to discourage any resales. They also claimed that very soon, owners with points purchased via resales will have difficulties redeeming them. They claim Wyndham will make it very difficult for them to redeem their points. They did not explain how they will do this.
I told them this in ability to sell anything I purchase is a serious hinderance to me buying anything from them. Does anyone know what the official changes are in relationship to the resale purchases? If you were interested in acquiring more vacation / retirement locations, what options would you pursue?

 

[vckempson]

Wyndham reps said today that any points purchased via 3rd party resales are Not honored. They specifically mentioned eBay purchases are not usable at any Wyndham resort. They claim that Wyndham has the first right of refusal and the owners must offer to sell the points back to Wyndham. They claimed they will give the owners 50 percent of what they paid for the points. I find this hard to believe. If this is true why would anyone sell the points on eBay for much less than this. They certainly know how to discourage any resales. They also claimed that very soon, owners with points purchased via resales will have difficulties redeeming them. They claim Wyndham will make it very difficult for them to redeem their points. They did not explain how they will do this.
I told them this in ability to sell anything I purchase is a serious hinderance to me buying anything from them. Does anyone know what the official changes are in relationship to the resale purchases? If you were interested in acquiring more vacation / retirement locations, what options would you pursue?

That's all 100% bunk. As others have pointed out, for both legal and practical reasons, they can't limit use of resale points. UDI contracts have legal rights that aren't changed by getting them resale. As for ROFR, they don't excersice it at all. I think they have the right, but I'm not even sure of that. Buy all the resale points you want and don't worry about future restrictions, as it won't happen. I purchase my 330,000 points resale over the last year and have no regrets at all.

BTW. I've already booked weeks in Florida, Washington DC, San Antonio and Hawaii with my resale points. They do in deed work.

edit; look around the Wyndham board to get more perspective on this.

 

[ronparise]

I attended a Wyndham educational update for owners on 12/27/11. I am on a Discovery trial run package. Wyndham is selling 1 Million Wyndham Access Points for $220,000 retail. Wow. Wyndham reps said today that any points purchased via 3rd party resales are Not honored. They specifically mentioned eBay purchases are not usable at any Wyndham resort. They claim that Wyndham has the first right of refusal and the owners must offer to sell the points back to Wyndham. They claimed they will give the owners 50 percent of what they paid for the points. I find this hard to believe. If this is true why would anyone sell the points on eBay for much less than this. They certainly know how to discourage any resales. They also claimed that very soon, owners with points purchased via resales will have difficulties redeeming them. They claim Wyndham will make it very difficult for them to redeem their points. They did not explain how they will do this.
I told them this in ability to sell anything I purchase is a serious hinderance to me buying anything from them. Does anyone know what the official changes are in relationship to the resale purchases? If you were interested in acquiring more vacation / retirement locations, what options would you pursue?

1 million point = $220000 retail

I now have 718,000 wyndham points all bought on ebay, and I paid less than a thousand dollars for the whole mess and they all work just fine

My last purchase was for a club wyndham access contract and that's the only one subject to ROFR. I paid $440 (including closing costs and Wyndhams transfer fee) The contract was submitted to Wyndham and they have waived their right of first refusal..

As you can see the ROFR is absolutely meaningless. Wyndham could have had this contract back, but they didnt exercise their right to it

 

[rickandcindy23]

Wyndham doesn't have ROFR written into their contracts anywhere. That is bunk, as the poster above said.

I hope you tell them you don't want the trial package of points for the outrageous cost you paid for it.

 

[ronparise]

My own understanding, one certainly subject to invited correction by anyone offering material facts to the contrary, is that property taxes are assessed based upon the estimated current market value of the physical property itself (i.e., the land, the building(s), the amenities). If that is so, then it would seem to matter not a bit what the widely fluctuating numbers might be on individual resales of individual units.

Those wildly fluctuating numbers are whats used to estimate market value

 

[rrlongwell]

I attended a Wyndham educational update for owners on 12/27/11 ... If you were interested in acquiring more vacation / retirement locations, what options would you pursue?

You may want to post this question on the Wyndham Board to get more specific suggestions from owners of different thoughts. There are many threads that discuss this issue.

Here a just are few options:

1. Rent until you are sure you want something.
2. Their are a number of options within Wyndham.
a. Club Wyndam Plus - Deeded properties
b. Club Wyndham Access - Not deeded properties.
c. Presidential Reserve (if you are going to be buying 1 million or more points retail, you would be eligable for this. Be careful, I think the benifts do not warrent the price nor, as I understand it, do they transfer on re-sale. This may be what they were trying to sell you.
d. Outrigger
e. Worldmark
f. Both Club Wyndham Plus and Club Wyndham Access have a VIP program with overlaping inventories. The difference being in ARP rights. These programs have different levels of benifits associated with them depending on level of ownership.
g. Buy re-sale. Do not do this until you review the member directory that is on line through the Wyndham site. This should be available to you if your discovery package has not expired.
f. Some others I no doubt missed.
g. Be careful and do not assume that a Wyndham point is a Wyndham point. There are difference in how Wynhdam points are used based on ARP rights, major catagory of program you are in, were the timeshares bought re-sale or from Wyndham, etc.

3. Do not by Wyndam and buy a competitor program. This is a definate option I would suggest you look at before you make any decisions.