Four Seasons Scottsdale: Rentals Prohibited?

[phillyflyer]

Was there a resolution to this?

 

[TUGBrian]

the last message i got was that it was being discussed with "resort management", will reach back out.

 

[camelbackgirl1]

The Four Seasons Residence Club Scottsdale recently communicated with owners who rent their weeks on Redweek, informing them that such rentals are prohibited. Owners were also warned that reservations previously confirmed and paid for through Redweek could be canceled. The communication specified that all rentals should be conducted exclusively through Tri-West, an officially licensed broker in Arizona and the designated broker for the Four Seasons. Has anyone else encountered a similar situation?

 

[bizaro86]

That's just ridiculous and totally inappropriate. I wonder if a tugger boycott of Tri-West would make a difference.

 

[dioxide45]

Is there any relationship between anyone on the BOD at Four Seasons Scottsdale and the owner or broker of TriWest?

 

[TravelTime]

This is ridiculous. I did not get the email. I have been depositing the weeks in to ThirdHome. This policy will further reduce resale value. I am clueless as to why FSA and Tri-West want to decrease resale value. It is already has virtually no resale value but this will make it harder to sell. Tri-west has a gazzilion sales listing so it is disappointing and infuriating that they would pressure FSA into this policy.

 

[steve1000]

I own at both Four Seasons Aviara and Four Seasons Scottsdale. I believe the restriction that rentals must go through Tri-West is only applicable to the Scottsdale property (not Aviara). It strikes me as being an unreasonable restraint that would be unenforceable if challenged but I don't know.

 

[phillyflyer]

Agree that this doesn't make any sense. Aviara you fill out a Guest Authorization form and they now charge $40 a night for non owner occupied. Scottsdale should have the same policy as helps increase revenues.

 

[Lskip]

Any updates on this? Also, how would they enforce it? Could one not rent it privately and refer to them as their guest? Not saying they should have to but I wonder if there is anything they can do about it.

 

[WorldT]

I was reading through this and it got a little sidetracked into taxes. As the OP tried to clarify, the response he got from the resort has nothing to do with resort fees or taxes. Someone has some affinity to a realtor at Tri-West and is using their position to enrich Tri-West. "Protection for the owner" is a made up reason. @echino how was this resolved?

Forming an alliance with a brokerage company or other real estate company and compelling owners to use them at the owners expense is similar to the recent settlement that the NAR had to make in court.

 

[echino]

Not resolved. Four Seasons canceled the guest certificate and forced me to go via TRI West and pay their commission to let my guest check in.

 

[WorldT]

Not resolved. Four Seasons canceled the guest certificate and forced me to go via TRI West and pay their commission to let my guest check in.

I don't own there but I don't like it. I see no reason why you are being forced to use Tri-West other than someone is getting a cut. Someone just started a thread to boycott Tri-West. I wish there was something else that can be done directly with the management company without the expense of suing them. But if you want to go Pro Se, I would volunteer to use my non-lawyer research skills to help.
For those who own at other Scottsdale locations, watch out! You might be next

 

[dioxide45]

Not resolved. Four Seasons canceled the guest certificate and forced me to go via TRI West and pay their commission to let my guest check in.

What was their % take on the transaction? Perhaps they gave you a discount since you were coming to them with a renter already in hand?

 

[Larnaka]

I own a week at Four Seasons Scottsdale, purchased resale last year. I rented out my 2023 week for the first time. I have a direct agreement with the guest, money received, non-refundable, guest name changed. My guest called Four Seasons to confirm the reservation and told them they rented it from me.

I just got a call from Four Seasons saying they will cancel the guest certificate because renting is only allowed via their preferred broker, TRI West. They told me renting not via TRI west is prohibited!

What? Anyone heard anything like that? Any advice?

Hello.
I love Four Seasons timeshares in Aviara and Scottsdale and the recent situation with the exclusivity by Triwest picked my interest some months ago. I believe it is unlawfull (what you have described). Your ownership, however fractional it may be (in your case it is likely 1/52, unless you own more than one interval) is still an ownership. Unless you signed any specific exclusion at the time of purchase or thereafter, which would allow your timeshare resort to subvert their fiduciary duty, thus allowing themselves to deprive you of your right to have a guest (which is what renting out is as far as your resort is concerned), I would encourage you to file a formal complaint against your Four Seasons and take legal actions to restore your lawful rights under your contract or deed with them.
Triwest is extremely unntansparent on their site and in their dealings. And while (IF for whatever reason) your resort may prefer Triwest as a third part rental broker, it may not be at the expense of Four Seasons' obligations to their timeshare owners (which inherently provides for the right to allow the usage of your interval by a guest).
I hope this helps.

 

[dioxide45]

Hello.
I love Four Seasons timeshares in Aviara and Scottsdale and the recent situation with the exclusivity by Triwest picked my interest some months ago. I believe it is unlawfull (what you have described). Your ownership, however fractional it may be (in your case it is likely 1/52, unless you own more than one interval) is still an ownership. Unless you signed any specific exclusion at the time of purchase or thereafter, which would allow your timeshare resort to subvert their fiduciary duty, thus allowing themselves to deprive you of your right to have a guest (which is what renting out is as far as your resort is concerned), I would encourage you to file a formal complaint against your Four Seasons and take legal actions to restore your lawful rights under your contract or deed with them.
Triwest is extremely unntansparent on their site and in their dealings. And while (IF for whatever reason) your resort may prefer Triwest as a third part rental broker, it may not be at the expense of Four Seasons' obligations to their timeshare owners (which inherently provides for the right to allow the usage of your interval by a guest).
I hope this helps.

One doesn't necessarily have to sign an exclusive agreement. We don't know what is in the underlying CC&R documents spell out in terms of this agreement. I don't see where they have been posted to this thread for us to peruse. Those could contain exclusive rental provisions that you basically agree to by being an owner.

 

[TravelTime]

If you purchase at Four Seasons Costa Rica, they do not allow you to rent out your unit at all. So not sure why going through an exclusive rental agent would be worse or unlawful. I am not saying I agree with these policies. It was the deal breaker for me not purchasing FSCR. I own at FSA and knowing what I know now, I would not have purchased there. I might be selling but not just because of this issue. BTW, all this negativity about Four Seasons might be hurting us owners more than anyone else. Who would want to purchase at Four Seasons with all of this negativity on TUG?

 

[StaceyM]

This may be stupid, but I think I've been paying $10 a month for Pre-paid Legal Services for years, and it's stuff like this where I love having them. They will review X pages of documents give you a legal opinion, and they will write an attorney letter or demand letter on your behalf. I don't even know how to refer anyone to them or I would give you a link. It's amazing how people respond when they get a letter from a real attorney.

I think forcing someone to use a specific broker is probably illegal if it's not specified in the contract you signed. At a minimum, you should have been able to use any licensed broker in Arizona, considering that is what the contract specifies. (I'm assuming there's not any language in any place that requires you to go through the Association in order to rent your week?)

I would think a demand letter asking for reimbursement of the commission you paid (i.e. damages) (from the management that forced you to use them) is appropriate. I don't know if you have any basis to re-claim commission from the broker since you "voluntarily" engaged their services, but you could definitely reach out to the Arizona Department of Real Estate and perhaps inquire or file a complaint. You could also figure out if small claims court is an option; you might have to file in Arizona or wherever the management company is located.

Section 33-2203 - Management of timeshare plan and timeshare property, Ariz. Rev. Stat. § 33-2203 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Section 33-2203 - Management of timeshare plan and timeshare property, Ariz. Rev. Stat. § 33-2203, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

"A. For each timeshare plan and timeshare property in this state, the developer shall provide in the timeshare instrument for a managing entity. The managing entity may be the developer, a separate manager or management firm or an association. There may be different managing entities for the timeshare plan and the timeshare property or for portions of the timeshare property. This section applies to a managing entity only to the extent of its authority to manage the timeshare plan or timeshare property under the timeshare instrument.
B. The managing entity shall act in the capacity of a fiduciary to the owners of timeshare interests in the timeshare plan.
C. The association or other managing entity may enter into a contract with a manager or management firm to provide some or all of the management services to the timeshare plan or timeshare property, but the manager or management firm shall not be considered the managing entity of the timeshare plan or timeshare property."

For what it's worth, fiduciary is a pretty high legal standard... they have to put your interests above their own.

 

[VacationForever]

Based on my memory, the interpretation is that AZ now wants to collect taxes on short-term rentals, including timeshare. Four Seasons Scottsdale has designated Tri-West as their rental company to ensure compliance.

 

[StaceyM]

Based on my memory, the interpretation is that AZ now wants to collect taxes on short-term rentals, including timeshare. Four Seasons Scottsdale has designated Tri-West as their rental company to ensure compliance.

LOL. (Not at you, at the convenient "solution") Seems like it would be easier to charge the tax on anyone who has a guest certificate unless the owner signs a form (they could even require a notarized form) that says no rental money or consideration was exchanged.

There is definitely a way to comply with this without forcing owners to pay a % commission that is likely higher than the tax itself.

In any case, the owners should have been notified.

 

[emeryjre]

There have been a series of hearings on the taxing of short term rentals in Scottsdale in the last 2 months
I no longer have an interest in these hearings and have not followed the hearings
Has anyone else paid attention to these hearings

 

[WorldT]

Based on my memory, the interpretation is that AZ now wants to collect taxes on short-term rentals, including timeshare. Four Seasons Scottsdale has designated Tri-West as their rental company to ensure compliance.

People keep bringing up taxes in this discussion. They may use taxes as an excuse but this has nothing to do with taxes.

 

[montygz]

People keep bringing up taxes in this discussion. They may use taxes as an excuse but this has nothing to do with taxes.

According to the city website, here are the requirements for renting.

Vacation and Short Term Rentals

Learn the regulations governing short-term vacation rentals in Scottsdale, including neighbor notifications and insurance requirements.

www.scottsdaleaz.gov

 

[WorldT]

According to the city website, here are the requirements for renting.

Vacation and Short Term Rentals

Learn the regulations governing short-term vacation rentals in Scottsdale, including neighbor notifications and insurance requirements.

www.scottsdaleaz.gov

I never said the law didn't exist. I said the law was being used as an excuse. Here is a tip, when someone forces you to use the services of a third party entity and that entity is allowed to charge a fee at a level of their choice, you have to ask yourself what gives. This arrangement forces any owner who wants to rent to incur expenses over and above the required taxes and registration requirements and all this benefits Tri-West and whoever in the resort's management that is collecting the kick back.
No need to go into the details because it is not relevant. The management company is saying we are going to stick it to you and you can't do anything about it.
Tri-West can be the agency to manage any HOA rental. When an individual owner is renting, that is a whole different story. Unless there was an agreement that the owner signed during the purchase or was approved during a HOA meeting, this will not pass the smell test.

 

[mjkkb2]

A question for the OP - Is the HOA governing docs snipit included earlier a current language? Is it possible there was an amendment that was voted on by the HOA directors that change this language dealing with private rentals? That seems to be the most likely scenario to explain this. Otherwise seems like complete overreach of management company to control the rights of owners.

 

[camelbackgirl1]

Would anyone happen to have a sample of the Tri-West rental agreement for the Scottsdale Four Seasons Residence Club? I have a licensed real estate broker who will charge me a low flat fee instead of 15% commission. If I could get the verbiage, it might make the resort Nazis happy.