Four Seasons Scottsdale: Rentals Prohibited?

[SteveinHNL]

For FSA, Owner Services responded as follows:

You are able to post your week through any third-party rental company of your choice (Vrbo, RedWeek, TriWest)

Once you find a renter, all we require is a Guest Authorization Form.

Please note, any guest using your assigned unit without your occupancy will be charged a nightly resort fee of $40.00 (plus applicable taxes and fees) upon check out. Should you wish to pay for nightly resort fee for your guests, Owner Services will be happy to email you a secure canary link to collect credit card for payment.

This is exactly the process FSA followed when we rented a week from an owner. However, we were not required to pay a resort fee since we were renting from an owner.

 

[TravelTime]

This is exactly the process FSA followed when we rented a week from an owner. However, we were not required to pay a resort fee since we were renting from an owner.

Last year, FSA changed its policy and anyone occupying as a guest must pay the daily resort fee.

 

[SteveinHNL]

Last year, FSA changed its policy and anyone occupying as a guest must pay the daily resort fee.

That's interesting, we were there in April of this year and did not have to pay the daily resort fee. We were renting an owner's studio lockoff

 

[TravelTime]

That's interesting, we were there in April of this year and did not have to pay the daily resort fee. We were renting an owner's studio lockoff

I forgot when the new rules started but I think it was before then. Were you listed as a guest? Was the owner on the other side when you were there? If not, then I guess someone made an error.

 

[SteveinHNL]

The owner was not present. I believe we were listed as a guest because the owner has to complete a guest authorization form. I don't think it was an error because I was specific in asking them about resort fees and was told there were none because we were booked through an owner.

 

[TravelTime]

The owner was not present. I believe we were listed as a guest because the owner has to complete a guest authorization form. I don't think it was an error because I was specific in asking them about resort fees and was told there were none because we were booked through an owner.

Well they started a $40 daily resort fee for guests renting through owners. There are only 2 ways to rent there: through owners and direct. The email they sent me above made it clear that guests will pay $40 resort fee per night. When I say it was an error, either it was before they started the fee or the person who did not charge you was not aware of the change. I think you got lucky.

 

[WBP]

Here is the name of a great timeshare attorney, Robert Bone. I'd contact him:

Law Office of Robert M. Bone

Timeshare Board Law Group

 

[sfcolliejr]

I am not a lawyer so won't try to interpret the article above. My only worry is that more owners (we own Westin Flex, now Marriot) will become restricted in the future. I have used RedWeek to rent weeks very successfully. RedWeek handles everything for a nominal fee. Good luck as I find this a very restrictive policy.

 

[Fredflintstone]

I own a week at Four Seasons Scottsdale, purchased resale last year. I rented out my 2023 week for the first time. I have a direct agreement with the guest, money received, non-refundable, guest name changed. My guest called Four Seasons to confirm the reservation and told them they rented it from me.

I just got a call from Four Seasons saying they will cancel the guest certificate because renting is only allowed via their preferred broker, TRI West. They told me renting not via TRI west is prohibited!

What? Anyone heard anything like that? Any advice?

Wow. These timeshares just keep tightening the noose on “ownership”. If you “own” you should be able to rent to whomever you wish. Otherwise, you are just a tenant who pays MF at whatever rate they want. Maybe they need to renew what “ownership” really means.

 

[skimeup]

have been made aware this is most likely due to the new transient tax the city of scottsdale now applies to timeshare owners/guests and how its collected.

more details on this situation will be made available once we are able to sort out this specific transaction. The parties involved with assisting with this asked not to be named at this time while they make efforts to facilitate this transaction and sort out a few details to make clear to FSS owners who wish to rent moving forward.

Wow. I like to exchange into Scottsdale. How much is this transient tax?

 

[skimeup]

That's interesting, we were there in April of this year and did not have to pay the daily resort fee. We were renting an owner's studio lockoff

I think that if the owner reports you as a guest rather than as a renter that may make a difference.

 

[emeryjre]

Wow. I like to exchange into Scottsdale. How much is this transient tax?

about 15%
For exact amount check at Scottsdale web site

 

[dioxide45]

Wow. I like to exchange into Scottsdale. How much is this transient tax?

about 15%
For exact amount check at Scottsdale web site

No transient tax for exchanges. Only for direct rentals (cash). This isn't Hawaii.

 

[Arusso]

They know what the contracts say. I guess he could ask what the rules are if he purchases at FS Scottsdale. Just to find out what they say. It is just a start to find out the rules and why.

I just sent an email to FSA to find out what they say. I just realized that the OP is an owner at Scottsdale. In any case, I am asking about FSA since I own there. I will be curious as

I did ask. They told me they will email it to me. But so far nothing.

I read all the documents very carefully. Only rentals by the Association must go through TRI West. No such policy exists for owner rentals in any of the documents.

By any reasonable standard this means ONLY inventory OWNED by the HOA ......AND the HOA must use their contracted broker. Aren't we told by the

I did ask. They told me they will email it to me. But so far nothing.

I read all the documents very carefully. Only rentals by the Association must go through TRI West. No such policy exists for owner rentals in any of the documents.

Except it's not what they told me. They clearly told me owners are not allowed to rent other than via their broker, it's not new, and it has always been like that. Taxes were not mentioned. I was told it's for "protection" for all owners.

Looks like they are now looking for an excuse and are trying to justify it using a new tax issue.

Wouldn't one think that a substantive change in policy, regardless of origin, must be communicated to all owners? We are told by courts that if a contract does not specify certain benefits or restrictions, they do not exist and cannot enforced. However, if the HOA documents state it can unilaterally change policy without consent or notification of the owners, there may be no remedy.

 

[montygz]

Wow. These timeshares just keep tightening the noose on “ownership”. If you “own” you should be able to rent to whomever you wish. Otherwise, you are just a tenant who pays MF at whatever rate they want. Maybe they need to renew what “ownership” really means.

This may be in place because of the short-term rental regulations put in place by the City of Scottsdale, which requires property owners be licensed and insured to rent. Or not, of course.

I think it's also one of these things where if I rent my timeshare to my neighbor and perhaps collect a few bucks, no one needs to know any more about it.

When you start renting in a more commercial way, with your guest/customers or a business like Redweek calling the resort to confirm their "rental," it starts to raise red flags about money, liability and who should be getting their slice of the pie. Cities demanding shares of rental income and requiring special licensing and insurance don't help.

The renting of timeshares is a gray market activity, thus it's going to have some gray areas for all involved. You would hope the HOA would do a better job of explaining what they are doing to the owners. However, having rules written in stone can be a bad thing if it shuts off any chance of doing a rental.

 

[Arusso]

This may be in place because of the short-term rental regulations put in place by the City of Scottsdale, which requires property owners be licensed and insured to rent. Or not, of course.

I think it's also one of these things where if I rent my timeshare to my neighbor and perhaps collect a few bucks, no one needs to know any more about it.

When you start renting in a more commercial way, with your guest/customers or a business like Redweek calling the resort to confirm their "rental," it starts to raise red flags about money, liability and who should be getting their slice of the pie. Cities demanding shares of rental income and requiring special licensing and insurance don't help.

The renting of timeshares is a gray market activity, thus it's going to have some gray areas for all involved. You would hope the HOA would do a better job of explaining what they are doing to the owners. However, having rules written in stone can be a bad thing if it shuts off any chance of doing a rental.

Amen. Is it too much to ask for the developer and respective HOA to just be transparent, if applicable, explain why prior policy is changed and set the rules down on paper - regardless of whether owners have input or approval? Failure to do is not good for business. It foments distrust. When there is no trust, the relationship sours for all concerned. Unfortunately, this industry is not owner oriented at all.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

may be in place because of the short-term rental regulations put in place by the City of Scottsdale, which requires property owners be licensed and insured to rent

read quickly thru the thread, waiting for someone to mention the backlash against short-term rentals, the "licensed & insured" trend & the ensuing reality for the govt to have its hand out. Here it is, in part, on Pg 3

 

[WaikikiFirst]

this industry is not owner oriented at all

Neither are many govts when it comes to short-term rentals. It is very likely that if there were not a "short-term rental" backlash in MANY areas, tourist-oriented and not, the hotel and the "industry" would not think it could get away with such stuff. But, when they appear to have the govt-wind at their back, beware.

 

[timsi]

For FSA, Owner Services responded as follows:

You are able to post your week through any third-party rental company of your choice (Vrbo, RedWeek, TriWest)

Once you find a renter, all we require is a Guest Authorization Form.

Please note, any guest using your assigned unit without your occupancy will be charged a nightly resort fee of $40.00 (plus applicable taxes and fees) upon check out. Should you wish to pay for nightly resort fee for your guests, Owner Services will be happy to email you a secure canary link to collect credit card for payment.

Do you mind asking if the $40 a night would go to the management company or to the resort?

 

[AJCts411]

Neither are many govts when it comes to short-term rentals. It is very likely that if there were not a "short-term rental" backlash in MANY areas, tourist-oriented and not, the hotel and the "industry" would not think it could get away with such stuff. But, when they appear to have the govt-wind at their back, beware.

Timeshares in their very nature are short term rentals with a long term commitment. No timeshare property should ever be included as everyone was permitted when they were built and occupied. It makes zero difference the name of the person checking in, not to resort, the maintenance load, notihing changes. All the rest is pure profiteering, greed.

 

[dioxide45]

Do you mind asking if the $40 a night would go to the management company or to the resort?

I have asked this in the past and no one seems to know for sure. Given that the resort and management are not all that transparent about it, I suspect it is going to the resort management.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

Timeshares in their very nature are short term rentals

Noooooop. Timeshares in their very nature are short term USAGE. They become RENTALS only when someone decides to RENT one. And when someone decides to RENT one, they fall under the expanding scope of govt taxation and regulation of such things.
Even the idea that the front-desk should collect the tax is not straightfwd. The property is not the one renting the place out. In this case, the OWNER is renting it out and technically the OWNER or his agent should be the one collecting the tax.

 

[dioxide45]

Noooooop. Timeshares in their very nature are short term USAGE. They become RENTALS only when someone decides to RENT one. And when someone decides to RENT one, they fall under the expanding scope of govt taxation and regulation of such things.
Even the idea that the front-desk should collect the tax is not straightfwd. The property is not the one renting the place out. In this case, the OWNER is renting it out and technically the OWNER or his agent should be the one collecting the tax.

The resort also doesn’t know how much the owner rented it for.

 

[timsi]

I have asked this in the past and no one seems to know for sure. Given that the resort and management are not all that transparent about it, I suspect it is going to the resort management.

Nobody seems to know, or more likely, nobody wants to tell us. Regardless, this is likely a different resort/developer than the ones you have asked about in the past, and there is no reason why this question should not be asked. If indeed the money goes to the manager, isn't it double dipping, since the management contracts cover the fees they are entitled to?

 

[jabberwocky]

Noooooop. Timeshares in their very nature are short term USAGE. They become RENTALS only when someone decides to RENT one. And when someone decides to RENT one, they fall under the expanding scope of govt taxation and regulation of such things.
Even the idea that the front-desk should collect the tax is not straightfwd. The property is not the one renting the place out. In this case, the OWNER is renting it out and technically the OWNER or his agent should be the one collecting the tax.

I agree completely with you, but it’s so much easier for governments to go after a large resort than an individual owner.