Festiva takes over resort

[somerville]

I was reviewing deed records for Festiva/Equivest transfers at Outer Banks Beach Club not long ago, and as Carolinian pointed out, very few are prime summer weeks. Most are shoulder season or worse. Of the handful of summer weeks I reviewed, about half appear to be in the units across the beach road.

 

[Sou13]

I'm beginning to see the light?

I was reviewing deed records for Festiva/Equivest transfers at Outer Banks Beach Club not long ago, and as Carolinian pointed out, very few are prime summer weeks. Most are shoulder season or worse. Of the handful of summer weeks I reviewed, about half appear to be in the units across the beach road.

It begins to make sense. If I owned two "green" weeks at Southcape, would Outfield Marketing ("OM") offer me 7000 points for the two weeks but at the same price ($3185)?

The upside of this offer would be that now I'd have enough points to cash in for a "red" week.

But who would be foolish enough to give up a "red" week? While my MF for Festiva would be significantly lower than the nearly $2000 I'd owe Southcape for hanging on to my two "green" weeks, where would I find those "red" FAC weeks I'd been duped into believing I could find?

The MF argument doesn't work for OM in the case of "red" week Southcape owners because they pay the same $2000 for two weeks as "green" week owners have to pay, but they can do so much more with their weeks by hanging on to their deeds!

 

[Carolinian]

But by buying up those low season weeks, these points parasites will getting voting control of the HOA. Then no telling what mischief they will be up to.

In South Africa, the Canary Islands, and the UK, there have been instances of points parasites using voting control of resort HOA's to either close and sell off the resort or change to all points and force weeks owners out. The former example has been more common in South Africa, while the later is now going on by the DRI thugs at Wychnor Park timeshare in the UK.

Timeshare started with points with Hapimag, but then a French developer came out with the far superior weeks concept and that is what the market prefered. The second wind of points came when a former loan shark in South Africa developed the points concept that is now being pushed across the industry. Even RCI Points has its roots in one of the scammy SA points operations, CRI.

It begins to make sense. If I owned two "green" weeks at Southcape, would Outfield Marketing ("OM") offer me 7000 points for the two weeks but at the same price ($3185)?

The upside of this offer would be that now I'd have enough points to cash in for a "red" week.

But who would be foolish enough to give up a "red" week? While my MF for Festiva would be significantly lower than the nearly $2000 I'd owe Southcape for hanging on to my two "green" weeks, where would I find those "red" FAC weeks I'd been duped into believing I could find?

The MF argument doesn't work for OM in the case of "red" week Southcape owners because they pay the same $2000 for two weeks as "green" week owners have to pay, but they can do so much more with their weeks by hanging on to their deeds!

 

[e.bram]

With all the TS owners scattered about it is very difficult to assemblr a posse to do what Carolinian says especially since lgal action costs. The only hope is that an owner is a lawyer willing to handle the case on a pro bono or contingency basis.

 

[Carolinian]

With all the TS owners scattered about it is very difficult to assemblr a posse to do what Carolinian says especially since lgal action costs. The only hope is that an owner is a lawyer willing to handle the case on a pro bono or contingency basis.

Often you will find an owner who is a lawyer. Often that is the key. A concerned owners group at BIS-Duck that started with discussions around the swimming pool a few years ago looked like it going to take off, especially since one of those around the pool was an assistance district attorney, who could provide pro bono advice, although not represent them in court. Unfortunately, just as the group was getting going his wife left him and she ended up with the timeshare in the property settlement, so he was out of the picture.

However, the concerned owners groups at all of the First Flight resorts hired their own attorneys. One went all the way to the state supreme court, and the developer waived a white flag in the other three, turning over all unsold weeks to the HOA, and in the case of Ocean Villas II, also a six figure sum of cash. He also bowed out of all management duties, of course.

With owners scattered all over, either snail mail, a chat board, or email is the way to communicate. In many states, you might not have a right to obtain email addresses, so snail mail is often the necessary first step.

 

[tombo]

I have great news from the Southscape thread. Cliff Hagberg (Owner of 500 weeks and an apparent employer/associate of Outfield who sells Festiva) posted the following:

Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC

I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated. It might surprise people to learn that I hear from new Festiva owners from Southcape and they love Festiva. but, then again, you probably think I'm lying about that as well. Oh well, all I can do is tell you truth. I can't make you believe it.
So, Eric, come on down!!!


Cliff
[Quote edited to reflect edit of original post, at request of NEVMSLLC. The edit removed NEVMSLLC's statement that Outfield had on several occasions refunded the purchase after the expiration of the rescission period. - Makai Guy, BBS Administrator]

I am not a lawyer but I would think that admitting that Outfield had cancelled memberships, given deeded weeks back, and refunded money after recission periods had expired would open the doors for anyone to cancel their contract. I was always told that in court if you did it for one you had to offer it to all. From my understanding they have set a precedent. Perhaps a lawyer could give their opinion. If I had personally been talked into giving up my deeded week anywhere to become a Festiva club member I would be contacting them immediatelly to get my week and my money back. Festive can't use the line so many developers use telling you that they can't deed your week back becase they have already sold it. Festiva doesn't sell the weeks, they become the owner and vote holder of the week. They can always give it back to you if you press them on it.

Perhaps everyone who owns at a Festiva acquired resort could spread the word to everyone you see while you are at the owner's meeting or by the pool that Outfield will cancel the contract, refund their money, and deed their week back to them if they ask them to. It might also be good for people to stand at the annual meeting and announce that FAC members who were previous owners at the resort could get their money and week back from Festiva by contacting Outfield like others have done successfully.

Any lawyers want to give their feelings on the precedant set by Outfield of cancelling contracts after the recission period has passed and whether that would open the option to all who have purchased under the same conditions. Even if all couldn't rescind, I would try very hard to rescind if I had given up a deeded voting week for some Festiva points that won't bring a single bid on e-bay. As Cliff said, if you don't want it, just call them and he is certain that they will cancel your membership. That is a wonderful thing to know.





The quote listed above was edited at the request of the op and is no longer anything like it originally was. The quote below is what I based my post on originally. Thanks to a TUGGER this quote was recovered from google archived pages.I request that TUG leave both quotes here as they are. The one below is the original post, and the quote at the top of the post is what the OP asked TUG to change it to after the OP edited it.

I am re-entering the original below and it makes for an interesting read to compare the original to the edited version. I feel that having both quotes will preserve the integrity and readability of my post and still allow the OP to have his edited version represented on my post as well as his:

I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated. Apparently that owner hasn't told everyone that that owner told me that they had purchased a membership in Festiva, had second thoughts and asked what I thought they should do. I told them that if they didn't want it, call Outfield and I was certain they would cancel their membership, refund their money and deed their week back to them. I understand that's exactly what happened. Gee, Outfield and Festiva must be greedy robber barons too. All of this happened after the recision period expired by the way. I will also tell you that they are not the only ones that Outfield and Festiva did this for.
So, Eric, come on down!!!

Cliff

 

[tombo]

The quote from Cliff above has been changed and his admission that Outfield has allowed contracts to be canceled by owner's request, refunded their money ,and deeded the weeks back to several owners has been edited out. This post will not make quite as much sense as it did with the original quote, but hopefully we can return to the original quotes and give hope to owners that they can get out of their Outfield sale even after the reccission period has passed.

 

[e.bram]

Not to worry about the deletion. if is ever goes to court he would have to admit he posted it or perjure himself. (which I doubt he would do)

 

[Sou13]

So it's OK to bend the truth so long as it's not in court?

Not to worry about the deletion. if is ever goes to court he would have to admit he posted it or perjure himself. (which I doubt he would do)

So it's OK to bend the truth so long as it's not in court?

By now, having been accused of "inuendo" and "untruths" and having my credibility and motives called into question by NEVMSLLC I've come to the conclusion that I have to take everything he posts with more than a grain of salt.

 

[ecwinch]

Am I the only one who thinks the only lawyer that advised Cliff (NEVMSLLC) to retract his statement was Festiva's lawyer? Bet that was an interesting call...

And Sou13 - I think what you said is the taught the first day of sales school. And they use a Gumby doll to demonstrate the fact.

 

[tombo]

Not to worry about the deletion. if is ever goes to court he would have to admit he posted it or perjure himself. (which I doubt he would do)

Too late to claim that he never said it. We found the original and reposted it.

 

[e.bram]

he can claim he never said it and go to jail.(perjury, ask Martha Stewart).

 

[Carolinian]

He also obviously did something highly unusual on these boards, ask a moderator to edit what had already been quoted. Those lawyers must have told him to delete all traces, so this must be really sensitive. I bet he was really taken to the woodshed on that one!

 

[Sou13]

Outfield Marketing

I propose that we start a new discussion on the subject of Outfield Marketing. It's purpose would be to have a place for interval owners who have been contacted by Outfield Marketing post their experiences and opinions. This might be the forum for it. Does anyone see a need here? If so, feel free!

 

[wmauryd]

Some of us may also need to edit a line or two sometime.

The recent discourse on this thread has changed direction and messages are indicating SC owners outrage with trustee X's anecdotal claims to have advised someone to ask for their money back... they followed his advice and did so... the deal was rescinded..he mentioned it in his tug site posts ....then subsequently went to attorneys and tug moderators to edit his earlier references.

It's gone further into an imaginary court proceeding where the trustee perjures himself and goes to jail .

This thread will be most productive for all parties if we get off the personality and character defamation, based on imaginary scenarios. This person has offered to join the site discussion, read and respond. Let's extend some courtesy and mutual respect to all participants, whether or not we agree with all views. If we don't we'll be preaching to the choir very quickly. Some of us may also need to edit a line or two sometime.

If I'm dissatisfied with a purchase or a service, and the business remedies the problem by rescinding the contract and refunding my money, that indicates integrity, not slime-hood, especially if it's after the normal rescindable period. It's a 'solution' not a 'problem'.

If this solution sets a precedent that creates a so-called bank run by other similar customers, then it's multiple solutions. If these remedies are SC's biggest problems, then it's time to celebrate that SC's problems are few and minor.

In one recent post I asked if trustee X was ever a "single owner" and after it was posted, I realized it could be misconstrued, so I pressed the 'edit' button and changed it to "single-week owner," which better describes the meaning I intended to convey (my imaginary legal team was unavailable to advise me on this one).

I vaguely recall a moderator asking why the need to edit-- replying honestly and the edit was made. All of us have the opportunity to edit, repair, delete our own messages. Look for the edit button. Others have the right to copy and archive original versions. It's not a conspiracy.

 

[tombo]

In one recent post I asked if trustee X was ever a "single owner" and after it was posted, I realized it could be misconstrued, so I pressed the 'edit' button and changed it to "single-week owner," which better describes the meaning I intended to convey (my imaginary legal team was unavailable to advise me on this one).

I vaguely recall a moderator asking why the need to edit-- replying honestly and the edit was made. All of us have the opportunity to edit, repair, delete our own messages. Look for the edit button. Others have the right to copy and archive original versions. It's not a conspiracy.

No one here has a problem with you editing your own post within TUG's allowed timeframe. The problem comes when you want to edit my post containing your quote. If you need to consult an attorney about whether you should say something in your post or not, ask for the legal advice before you post it. Once you post it and someone copies your quote within their post, it is no longer yours to change.

I have no problem with trustee x trying to make a profit, that is what businesses that survive do. However if your trustee x is going to make other people improve his property with their money while not contributing any money himself towards improvements and upgrades, that is a problem. I wish I could buy part of a house to flip, make the other owners of the house pay 100% of the renovation costs, and then sell my portion for more money without having to contribute my share of the expenses to improve the value of the property. In addition as long as I own a portion of the house to sell, the other owners will pay 100% of the electricity, taxes, insurance, upkeep, and incidentals for not only their portion of the property, but they will pay my share too. If it take me a year or 20 years to sell, the other owners will always have to cover my share of the expenses while I pay nothing. When I sell the people that covered my expense for all of those years are not entitled to one penny of the proceeds from my sale. That is exactly what trustee x is doing and it isn't right. He should pay the same amount for each week he owns as owners pay because after all he is an OWNER of 500 weeks. If you own 10 weeks you have to pay assessments and annual MF's on each and every week. So should he.

Trustee x has placed himself and 2 others as trustees with no votes or input from the owners. He has assessed with no vote or input. He has raised MF's with no vote or input. If you read his comments about other resorts he has controlled, one (I thing Brewster Green) had 3 or 4 separate assessments in the span of a few years. Southscape owners might have just paid the first of many assessments that he will charge to get the resort renovated to a level that will allow him to sell his weeks for a premium price. If you don't mind being repeatedly assessed and paying ever increasing MF's with no vote or input (since he controls the mgt company and the trustees), then this might be a good deal for you. I personally would hate it. I like to have a vote in resorts I own. I like the board to be composed of owners, not developers. I want the board's main goal to be taking care of the owners, not maximizing sales profit for themselves.

If he is going to sell this resort as festiva, announce it in a newsletter. Extoll the virtues of Festiva and proudly proclaim the reasons he chose Festiva to associate with and why he chose outfield to sell festiva to owners. He dodges the issue and acts like he has nothing to do with Festiva or Outfield. We aren't stupid. He hired outfield because he owns the weeks and controls the board/trustees. Who else could have hired them? He had to have known that Outfield sold festiva exclusivelly when he hired Outfield. To act like he had nothing to do with it is an outright lie IMO.

Festiva is IMO a horrible organization with regards to the way they treat owners. They, like trustee x, take control and do what they want with no input from the owners. They renovate and upgrade so that they can charge more for their weeks they sell. They make owners mad and get many free "prime" weeks for them to sell that owners deed back to them once the assessments and MF's become ridiculous. Trustee x and Festiva can't be gotten rid of because they control the vote, the board, and the mgt companies. They are both like herpes IMO because you don't want it, you aren't quite sure how you got it, and you can't get rid of it.

 

[Tia]

well put tombo.

 

[Sou13]

Welcome back, tombo!

Welcome back, tombo! I missed you yesterday!

I want to publicly thank you for your efforts in getting the administrators' and moderators' attention to the matter. Live and learn!

As for myself, I've learned to copy and paste posts into notepad before they can be edited, especially when I'm replying to something and then come back the next day to find my reply edited as well!

Is anyone going to step up to the challenge and get a discussion going about Outfield Marketing? This one was supposed to be about offers made by Outfield Marketing in exchange for converting to Festiva points for how much money? We've learned a lot from FestivaRep here and hope to continue the discussion, but hasn't anyone been tendered an offer?

 

[Sou13]

FestivaRep, where are you?

The ARDA convention is over and we've been discussing cancelled contracts. I found this:
How to Cancel My Timeshare Contract
Cancel timeshare outside your rescission period. We'll do it for you.
www.theownersadvocate.com

 

[tombo]

The ARDA convention is over and we've been discussing cancelled contracts. I found this:
How to Cancel My Timeshare Contract
Cancel timeshare outside your rescission period. We'll do it for you.
www.theownersadvocate.com

If this is a non profit organization or if they have reasonably priced fees and a successful track record, it would be a great thing for owners with buyers remorse. If they charge expensive fees and are simply trying a new angle to fleece owners who have already been fleeced by the developer, then not a good thing. Any TUGGERS have any experience with this group? I looked but can't find how much they charge.

I hate to be cynical, but after all of the bogus offers I have received from companies that want to sell my weeks for me from post card companies that in reality are nothing but an up front fee company that won't ever sell my week, I am a little skeptical. Hopefully they are legit and a good thing for buyers who have passed the recission period.

 

[Jya-Ning]

I got a cold call claimed that since Festiva take over, I will no longer be able to use my fix week as before, since it no longer a Peppertree. And insist to have someone come to my house to help me out (I took it as conversion). I say no, and they say they will talk to me the next time I will be in resort.

Since this look like a sale pitch to me, I send 3 mails one to Festiva, cc one to MD AG, cc one to NC AG and ask the company send me stuff in writing instead of try to do a sale pitch man to me. I ask for public offering and the change they made to alert my original usage highlight.

Will see

Jya-Ning

 

[tombo]

I got a cold call claimed that since Festiva take over, I will no longer be able to use my fix week as before, since it no longer a Peppertree. And insist to have someone come to my house to help me out (I took it as conversion). I say no, and they say they will talk to me the next time I will be in resort.

Since this look like a sale pitch to me, I send 3 mails one to Festiva, cc one to MD AG, cc one to NC AG and ask the company send me stuff in writing instead of try to do a sale pitch man to me. I ask for public offering and the change they made to alert my original usage highlight.

Will see

Jya-Ning

Good job. It was a sales pitch and a lie. More people need to contact the Md and NC AG's so they will know what is happening. One or two complaints can seem like a couple of disgruntled owners. Hundreds of complaints alert them to potential problems. The next time I am contacted I am going to write down the dates, the lies tey tell me, and I too will report to the NC AG.

The only way they can take away your right to use your fixed week is if you fall prey to their sales pitch and give them your week in exchange for Festiva points (which are virtually worthless IMO). If you do ever give them your week(s) and join their club, you will no longer be able to use your fixed week because it will irrevocably become their fixed week. Use your fixed week yourself, or if you want to travel to a resort other than yours trade your week through RCI or II.

By the way they will do more than talk to you when you are at the resort. The first time I was called in my room and told that I needed to attend an owner's update to find out about the changes occuring at my resort since Festiva came. I was told that if I didn't come I would not know about many changes at the resort which would affect my ownership. I showed up at 9 AM as asked, and they were mad that my wife wasn't there with me. I said I will explain the changes to her, you explain them to me. They refused to "update" me without my wife present. I was rudelly talked to and actually yelled at on my cell phone because my wife didn't come with me to the "Owner's update".


The second time I stayed at the resort after festiva arrived I refused to answer the phone in the room because anyone I knew who needed to call me would call my cell phone. I refuse to be bothered on vacation by salesmen trying to sell me something I am not interested in buying. The phone rang mornings, nights, middays for several days. I called the front desk to see if they had tried to call me for any reason and they had not, they said it was Festiva calling me to update me. I finally just unplugged the phones so I wouldn't have to hear them ring anymore. One morning a couple of days later there was a knock on the door. A sales woman said they that had been callng me for days and never could get in touch with me. She started the sales pitch about why we needed to attend the update. I told her that I could buy what she was selling on e-bay for $1 and I was not interested. I told her not to call me again or knock on my door again. She started to argue and I shut the door on her. Do not do the owner's update because it is a sales pitch pure and simple.

The next time I stay at my resort I think I am going to walk up to the sales dept after I check in and tell them that if I am bothered by them one time about updates that I will walk through the lobby every morning announcing that Festiva points are available for a dollar on e-bay at the top of my lungs. I will tell everyone I see at the pool and the cookouts that the points are worthless and warn all against giving up the weeks they own. Now that I think about it, I might do that whether they bother me or not to pay them back for their past bothersome sales tactics which interrupted my vacations.

 

[Fig]

Since this look like a sale pitch to me, I send 3 mails one to Festiva, cc one to MD AG, cc one to NC AG and ask the company send me stuff in writing

Let us know how this works out, Jya-Ning. I like the fact that you are cc the attorney generals of your states. These sales pitches by Outfield Marketing on the behalf of Festiva that involve flying into a community and trying to scare as many people as possible into giving up their deeds and paying thousands of dollars to do so, all with no written documentation would not survive the light of day if the people who were being sold really were given a fair and balanced presentation. Maybe other people should chime in with letters to their attorney generals requesting that these sales pitches be put into writing so a consumer can evaluate the offer? If enough letters show up at a few attorney generals, this parasitic sales tactic might just get the light of day that it needs to end it.

 

[Fig]

The next time I stay at my resort I think I am going to walk up to the sales dept after I check in and tell them that if I am bothered by them one time about updates that I will walk through the lobby every morning announcing that Festiva points are available for a dollar on e-bay at the top of my lungs. I will tell everyone I see at the pool and the cookouts that the points are worthless and warn all against giving up the weeks they own. Now that I think about it, I might do that whether they bother me or not to pay them back for their past bothersome sales tactics which interrupted my vacations.

Hey, Tombo...in the age of the Internet, why rely on pools and cookouts? Is there a tech savy Tugger out there who can put up a web page? It can be filled with factual accounts of people's dealings with Outfield Marketing and Festiva Adventure Club. Yes, I know, this subject shows up on forums like this, Trip Advisor, etc, and there is a Yahoo Group on it...but you have to join. This would be 100% about the this secret meeting sales tactic of Outfield Marketing trying to get you to give up your deed for thousands of dollars in exchange for Festiva Adventure Club points. This "sales tactic" really should be out in the open with personal accounts all organized in one area for referencing by folks who get their first phone call.

Sou13...maybe you can post this to the Yahoo group to see if anyone there has interest in putting up a site? It could even be a blog, does not have to be elaborate...just a place to visit and post, but would have to be 100% about Festiva Adventure Club and Outfield Marketing increasing the chances that it would be the first site to pop up when people Googled Festiva Adventure Club or Outfield Marketing.

 

[Jya-Ning]

In case it happens, this is the address I found

To: Festiva Resort
One Vance Gap Road
Asheville, NC 28805

Cc: MD State Attorney General
Office of the Attorney General
200 St. Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202

NC State Attorney General
9001 Mail Service Center
Raleigh, NC 27699-9001


The MD is where I live. You will need to find the state AG you live and report to the AG there. NC is where the resort exists.

I really don't mind the sale pitch. But I would much prefer they tell me what is the gift, so if too less, I will not take it, instead trying to rob me out of my free gift. And really, I like to see stuff in writing although I prefer it is signed and dated by them if they want to change the rule around.

Will see

Jya-Ning