Festiva takes over resort

[Sou13]

Here's where eric got it wrong

I understand that - I think that was the essence of my point a few posts back. But until recently this thread was about SC. For a current owner, FAC will:

1. Protect them from special assessments. FAC apparently does not have special assessments, as they build them into their m/f.

2. At least right now at SC, the m/f is lower.

For certain owners (i.e. someone on a fixed income), protection from an unexpected bill (i.e. special assessment), is a valuable benefit. While IMHO the benefit received is not a good value, for some it may have value.

So, at least for current SC owners, these selling points are true. So, not deceptive sales practices. Based on what you are saying, the same representation to a Blue Ridge owner would be a blatant deception.

Here's where you haven't got it right. Greg Hughes said my MF for 3500 points would be lower than the $593.88 I owed Southcape as a deeded interval owner for 2009. But in Dec. Festiva raised the MF for 3500 points to $602, which is HIGHER than the MF for ALL deeded Southcape owners.

Furthermore, the MF for FAC members is based on the # of points, which is why I'm asking how many points Outfield Marketing is offering and what is the MF for the fixed red weeks at Southcape?

So we all had to get socked with a $400 "Special Assessment" because by my calculations there are only 1800 or 1600 Southcape deeded owners (Cliff Hagberg has yet to clarify that one) paying their maintenance fees! I've posted the 2009 budget on the "Southcape Resort" forum (it's a mess because I couldn't figure out how to make a column on TUG) and divided it by $543.88 and $593.88.

We concerned Southcape deeded owners have so many questions they can't all be answered at the annual meeting May 16th, but the more info that comes to light the worse it gets.

Why isn't Outfield Marketing paying Southcape Resort rent for the unit it's occupying for the purpose of "convincing" deeded owners to convert to Festiva points?

 

[tombo]

I. For a current owner, FAC will:

1. Protect them from special assessments. FAC apparently does not have special assessments, as they build them into their m/f.

Festiva assesses at every resort they take over as soon as they can, and they raise MF's because they can never seem to be able to operate a resort on the budget that the previous owner's made ends meet with. Just ask owners at The Atrium, Church Street Inn,and Southscape to name a few. At Blue Ridge Village they already have a model unit renovated with the mandatory granite counter tops and flat screen TV's to show potential FAC buyers what the resort will look like after they remodel it. Remodelling equals assessments. Southscape FAC members and all other FAC members will be paying increased annual fees very soon so that Festiva can remodel Blue Ridge Village to help them sell their points.

FAC doesn't have special assessments? You have got to be kidding me. Festiva assesses more than any resort chain I know of. Festiva is assessing at virtually every resort they own, and they are dividing the assessment costs among all FAC members at all resorts by increasing the annual dues.

If Festive has a special assessment at any FAC resort, FAC member's annual dues will increase to cover the special assessments. Obviously FAC members do pay for special assessments since their dues increase everytime Festiva assesses or increases MF's at any of their resorts. When Festiva charges a resort's owners and club members special assessments, FAC (which is Festiva by the way) pays the cost of those assessments. Saying that FAC doesn't have special assessments because the assessments are levied on paper by Festiva and not specifically by FAC is not a misrepresentation, it is a downright lie.

If your annual dues go up every time there is an assessment at any Festiva resort, how could you possibly believe that you aren't paying for it? That's like saying you aren't paying for the AIG bailout because you aren't getting a bill from the government telling you how much you owe to pay for your fair share of the AIG bailout. Your taxes will go up in the future and you and every other American will be paying for it no matter what spin you hear or read! When Blue Ridge Village has it's soon to come special assessment, all FAC members will have a dues increase so they can pay their fair share of that special assessment too.

 

[tombo]

We concerned Southcape deeded owners have so many questions they can't all be answered at the annual meeting May 16th, but the more info that comes to light the worse it gets.

Why isn't Outfield Marketing paying Southcape Resort rent for the unit it's occupying for the purpose of "convincing" deeded owners to convert to Festiva points?

It might get even worse as you learn more. Festiva feels that they own all common areas that they think came with their purchase of the Blue Ridge Village resort. According to Festiva they own the pool, lake, tennis courts, club house, and all undeveloped land. Phase one which is not controlled by Festiva has hired a lawyer (from what I have been told) to try and regain control of our common areas.

Festiva came in and set up sales offices in the club house and informed everyone that they owned it and can do with it as they wish. They also had plans to build many more units on undeveloped land at the resort (I doubt that they will do that now in this economy) and they told the board that the new units will all have access to our pool, tennis courts, and lake because we don't own them, Festiva does. They have also taken a unit out of use and renovated it for sales tours at Blue Ridge Village. I am not sure if it has been resolved yet or not, and if it has been resolved I don't know which way it went. I had heard that they were going to give us our common areas in exchange for some other concessions, but I haven't heard if that was a factual situation and if it is what the final outcome was.

So Southscape might be suprised to find out that Festiva might own the unit they are using for sales. They might also own your pool, your clubhouse, and everything at the resort other than the actual timeshare units themselves. Check with your board and keep your fingers crossed that you still own the common areas and not Festiva.

 

[Sou13]

Thank you, tombo!

I don't have time to post more than a quick "Thank you, tombo!" here. It looks as though Southcape is about 800 intervals short when it comes to collecting maintenance fees. Go to the "Southcape Resort" ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page) discussion and read what Russ45 learned from NEVS.

 

[somerville]

I understand that - I think that was the essence of my point a few posts back. But until recently this thread was about SC. For a current owner, FAC will:

1. Protect them from special assessments. FAC apparently does not have special assessments, as they build them into their m/f.

2. At least right now at SC, the m/f is lower.

For certain owners (i.e. someone on a fixed income), protection from an unexpected bill (i.e. special assessment), is a valuable benefit. While IMHO the benefit received is not a good value, for some it may have value.

So, at least for current SC owners, these selling points are true. So, not deceptive sales practices. Based on what you are saying, the same representation to a Blue Ridge owner would be a blatant deception.

I am not sure how someone on a fixed income benefits from being in FAC. The $3,100 cost to convert would pay for a lot of special assessments, plus where is the person on a fixed income going to come up with this payment in the first place.?

 

[ecwinch]

Festiva is assessing at virtually every resort they own, and they are dividing the assessment costs among all FAC members at all resorts by increasing the annual dues.

If Festive has a special assessment at any FAC resort, FAC member's annual dues will increase to cover the special assessments.

Saying that FAC doesn't have special assessments is not a misrepresentation, it is a downright lie.

Please reread my posts. You seem to be restating points I have made early, that it is a zero-sum game.

No, FAC does not have special assessments per se. As you noted above, and as I said in my post, they are blended into the annual dues. The net affect that you will not see a huge spike in your annual costs, unless all the resorts had a special assessment at the same time.

And re-read what you wrote above. You are saying the same thing.

It is not a model for everyone. But if you wanted a timeshare program that would avoid the "musical chairs" nature of a special assessment, it might be for you. The same is true of most true points systems.

 

[tombo]

Please reread my posts. You seem to be restating points I have made early, that it is a zero-sum game.

No, FAC does not have special assessments per se. As you noted above, and as I said in my post, they are blended into the annual dues. The net affect that you will not see a huge spike in your annual costs, unless all the resorts had a special assessment at the same time.

And re-read what you wrote above. You are saying the same thing.

It is not a model for everyone. But if you wanted a timeshare program that would avoid the "musical chairs" nature of a special assessment, it might be for you. The same is true of most true points systems.

Yes, you are in a way saying the same thing, but you are also saying that Outlaw Marketing is making true statements and not misrepresenting when they say that FAC will save the owner money since their members don't have to pay special assessments. The FAC members not only have to pay for their portion of the special assessments at their resort, they have to pay for their portion of special assessments at other Festiva resorts, and they will never own at any resort. The total they pay over a 4 or 5 year period will be higher than the owner wo just has to pay the assessment once in some cases.

FAC members will pay more money than owners at a single Festiva resort if the resort they own at assesses $400, and the other Festiva resorts assess $500 to $600 over a 4-5 year period. The owner will pay $400 total. The FAC member pays his share of the $400 at his resort plus his share of the $500 to $600 at the other resorts spread over 4-5 years.

If the owner at a resort has no special assessments then he pays nothing to cover assessments at other resorts. No matter whether the home resort that the FAC member's points are based in has assessments or not, the FAC member will constantly be paying assessments from other Festiva resorts.

Outlaw marketing will not explain these undisputable facts and are totally misrepresenting IMO.

 

[wmauryd]

Outfield Marketing and Southcape Board

I'm directing this to the Festiva Rep:

Is the president of Outfield Marketing, or are others connected with Outfield Marketing, currently serving on Southcape Resort's Board of Trustees?

 

[wmauryd]

meal vouchers for timeshare tours

It's not directly related to Southcape but it's interesting to read about the $80k in unpaid vouchers, awarded by a Cape Cod timeshare marketing company, today on http://www.capecodonline.com/

How are sales going at Southcape anyone? Are promotional meal vouchers being awarded for tours?

 

[FestivaRep]

I'm directing this to the Festiva Rep:

Is the president of Outfield Marketing, or are others connected with Outfield Marketing, currently serving on Southcape Resort's Board of Trustees?

This is one I cannot answer since we are not involved in the management of Southcape. I would recommend you go directly to the source and contact the general manager of SC for questions about the makeup of the board.

 

[FestivaRep]

FAC members will pay more money than owners at a single Festiva resort if the resort they own at assesses $400, and the other Festiva resorts assess $500 to $600 over a 4-5 year period. The owner will pay $400 total. The FAC member pays his share of the $400 at his resort plus his share of the $500 to $600 at the other resorts spread over 4-5 years.

I think there might be some confusion over the assessments. This is purely an example, I'm not basing it on any current resort's fees, assessments, or number of weeks owned. Just off the top of my head on a Monday morning - Let's say resort X has a special assessment of $200 per unit interval. If there are 20 unit intervals at this resort that are owned by the Adventure Club, then the FAC owes $4,000 to that resort for the assessment. There are currently over 13,000 (that's a real number) members in the Adventure Club, so they would each pay approximately $0.31 for that assessment, which would be built into their maintenance fee invoice for that year. The same would stand for unsold weeks owned by the adventure club at that resort, for which Festiva would be responsible for that share of the cost. Since FAC members do not own at a single resort, they will never pay a full assessment for one unit interval (unless they have a deeded week in addition to their FAC membership, but that's a different scenario). And the more FAC members there are, the more the costs are spread among the club and the less each member pays per assessment.

 

[FestivaRep]

If you own Festiva Points at a resort that doesn't have an assessment, you will be paying more than non FAC owners at your resort since you are subsidizing assessments at all of the resorts Festiva owns. So far I haven't been assessed at Blue Ridge Village, so FAC members at Blue Ridge Village are paying more to subsidize the assessments at Southscape and other Festiva resorts with current assessments than I am paying as an owner at Blue Ridge Village.

I think there is a clear misunderstanding here: FAC members do not own points at a particular resort. An FAC member who purchased at BRV would pay the same as an FAC member who purchased the same amount of points in Charleston, regardless of assessments at either/any resort for that year.

 

[FestivaRep]

FAC gets to vote the weeks that owners have converted to FAC plus the weeks and Equivest points that Festiva bought from the resort that were unsold, reposessed, or deeded back to the HOA. We also know that the number of Festiva Adventure Club votes at Southscape will increase every time an owner converts to FAC.

The only weeks at Southcape owned by Festiva are from those owners who have converted to the FAC. Festiva did not purchase any unsold, repossessed or deeded back weeks from Southcape, and Southcape was never part of the Equivest points system. So we only have as many votes as those who convert, and that number changes daily.

 

[Carolinian]

I am not sure how someone on a fixed income benefits from being in FAC. The $3,100 cost to convert would pay for a lot of special assessments, plus where is the person on a fixed income going to come up with this payment in the first place.?

Selling points is very similar to selling snake oil in the old west. It is nothing but a con game. If someone really wanted this snake oil, er, points, they could pick them up for peanuts on eBay.

If my resort had someone come in and try to con people into a points conversion, I would ask the HOA to send out an alert, or at least request that I be allowed to write an item about how it is a con for the resort newsletter.

 

[timeos2]

Give me my deeded ownership - and voting rights - everytime

FAC members will pay more money than owners at a single Festiva resort if the resort they own at assesses $400, and the other Festiva resorts assess $500 to $600 over a 4-5 year period. The owner will pay $400 total. The FAC member pays his share of the $400 at his resort plus his share of the $500 to $600 at the other resorts spread over 4-5 years.

If the owner at a resort has no special assessments then he pays nothing to cover assessments at other resorts. No matter whether the home resort that the FAC member's points are based in has assessments or not, the FAC member will constantly be paying assessments from other Festiva resorts.

Outlaw marketing will not explain these undisputable facts and are totally misrepresenting IMO.

And don't forget the management fee (overhead) that all operators of these clubs / trusts charge to operate the club / trust. That is usually a percentage so the higher the overall fees the more they make. I find it hard to believe that in the long run a club / trust can be cheaper than owning a deeded week at a resort in the system with all these actual and potential fees being charged to the club / trust members. It appears that in a given year or two the club fee may be less than the annual fee at a specific resort but if you look at a 5-10 year period the club / trust fees will almost always be higher - maybe significantly higher - and without the owner input (voting rights and BOD representation) that owning at a deeded resort offers. It seems to be a model that favors the devloper /operator not the owner / club member.

 

[Sou13]

Festiva meets with Equivest member

Here is some important info about Festiva Vacation Club:

"Response from Festiva"

And here is some important info about the members of Southcape's Board of Trustees:

Tom Franks

Steve Lamantia

 

[ecwinch]

I find it hard to believe that in the long run a club / trust can be cheaper than owning a deeded week at a resort in the system with all these actual and potential fees being charged to the club / trust members.

I agree, and I do not think that has been said here. But most people do not think about the long run. Just consider all the products that are sold on the basis of "how much can you afford to spend per month".

This timeshare model simply affords some protection against unexpected spikes in your m/f. As you noted, given the extra layer of fees and overhead, it certainly will cost you more over the long run.

 

[tombo]

I think there might be some confusion over the assessments. This is purely an example, I'm not basing it on any current resort's fees, assessments, or number of weeks owned. Just off the top of my head on a Monday morning - Let's say resort X has a special assessment of $200 per unit interval. If there are 20 unit intervals at this resort that are owned by the Adventure Club, then the FAC owes $4,000 to that resort for the assessment. There are currently over 13,000 (that's a real number) members in the Adventure Club, so they would each pay approximately $0.31 for that assessment, which would be built into their maintenance fee invoice for that year. The same would stand for unsold weeks owned by the adventure club at that resort, for which Festiva would be responsible for that share of the cost. Since FAC members do not own at a single resort, they will never pay a full assessment for one unit interval (unless they have a deeded week in addition to their FAC membership, but that's a different scenario). And the more FAC members there are, the more the costs are spread among the club and the less each member pays per assessment.

On the other hand if Festiva assesses at 3 or 4 of their other resorts, but not at resort X, then the owner at resort x will pay less. Also an owner at resort x won't have to pay the Mgt fee that I assume Festiva charges it's members to operate the Club.

IMO the only way it would be cheaper to be a FAC member in the long run is if Festiva owned a large amount of inventory and was paying a large percentage of the upkeep at their resorts. I assume that Festiva will not be paying out more in expenses than they are taking in from club members, so factoring in sales profits and expenses, somewhere somehow the members will have to pay enough to keep Festiva in the black.

It could work out either way as far as being cheaper or more expensive in any given year in the Festiva model, but in the long run my bet is that it will be cheaper to be an owner since you won't have the annual Festiva club fees to pay in addition to the expenses required to keep the resorts operating. However since Festiva has all control of expenses and upgrades at the resorts (since they don't give members a vote), I don't feel that the emphasis at the resorts will ever be on saving FAC members or owners money. The emphasis will always be on sales and profitability for Festiva raising costs for both FAC members and owners to levels higher than could be acheived with an owner dedicated board elected by a vote of the owners. Please note the double digit MF increases at virtually every resort Festiva has taken over if one has doubts (The Atrium, Church Street Inn,etc, etc, etc).

 

[tombo]

I think there is a clear misunderstanding here: FAC members do not own points at a particular resort. An FAC member who purchased at BRV would pay the same as an FAC member who purchased the same amount of points in Charleston, regardless of assessments at either/any resort for that year.

I forgot that the members don't own anything anywhere, so there is no week or unit number associated with Festiva membership. Because there are no controls the Club can sell as many points as they want. I am sure that there is a plan in place to prevent that from happening. Festiva's financial reports and annual resort reports disclose very little if any information to FAC members and often are not sent at all because as Festiva is so proud to say they are not required to disclose since the members are not owners. I would doubt that Festiva is required to send a list of how many points are currently owned at each resort and a total number of points there are in the whole organization.

With points based on underlying deeds where units/weeks are listed, the resorts can only sell the points equal to 50 or 51 weeks per unit. Festiva could sell enough points that there are the equivalent of 100 owners per unit, and no one would ever know for sure (I know just trust Festiva to not oversell and operate within their internal guidelines). Since every year some people won't use their points, and some will not pay their dues, the points could be oversold with no one the wiser.

Points being sold by Festiva with no external (or members) oversight requires trust that the right thing will be done and points won't be oversold. That is another potential disadvantage for owners, and a huge advantage for Festiva. Festiva can keep a full number of dues paying members by coninuing to sell points while many points members are in default or being reposessed. Festiva won't have to wait until they actually get the points back, they can constantly sell to cover potential deed backs and foreclosures. If the resort was selling deeded weeks, they couldn't sell a week until the week was actually legally owned by the resort. There could end up being be a lot more points in existence than there are available weeks, but it will never be know for sure since many members won't be able to vacation on points they still own because their accounts are in arrears.

You buy into the club, you own nothing, you are assessed and required to pay MF's for 30 or 40 years, and you don't get a vote on anything being done at any resort that Festiva owns. The number of points required to stay at newly acqired resorts can be raised to where one would have to buy additional points to be able to vacation there. Festiva could file bankrptcy and your points contract would be worthless. From what I am seeing they apparently aren't worth anything now since the last 3 Festiva resort points ads on e-bay did not receive a sinlge bid ( ads# 250387307837,# 350177063403, and # 220373983605 ) and the current bid for 1500 points at peppertree is at $1 with 4 hours to go (# 220379214962 ). Please feel free to look at those recent auctions to decide for yourself what points at Festiva resorts are worth.

I am not a fan of any Points plans which are not based on underlying ownership, even Disney (although comparing Festiva to DVC is like comparing potted meat to Filet mignon IMO).

 

[bnoble]

I find it hard to believe that in the long run a club / trust can be cheaper than owning a deeded week at a resort in the system with all these actual and potential fees being charged to the club / trust members.

Clearly, on avearge, it's not. The additional layer of management has to impose additional costs. The question is, though, do the extra benefits outweigh the extra average costs. For some systems/situations, it might.

For example, Wyndham's FairShare Plus (or, Club Wyndham Plus, or whatever they are calling it today) imposes additional fees on top of your deeded week. Yet, as the owner of a converted fixed week, I find the additional benefits of being in FSP to be more than repaid by the additional costs---and that's despite all the nuisance fees, etc. that have been charged.

On the other hand, looking at Festiva's portfolio of resorts, and the point assignments for both the weeks I own and those at the few resorts I might like to visit, I'd much rather keep my fixed week and pay an exchange fee to RCI or II than convert to Festiva points. Because the week is high-demand in both third-party exchanges, it trades much better than it would in Festiva's system.

So, as with most things in timeshare, the answer is: "It depends."

 

[tombo]

The only weeks at Southcape owned by Festiva are from those owners who have converted to the FAC. Festiva did not purchase any unsold, repossessed or deeded back weeks from Southcape, and Southcape was never part of the Equivest points system. So we only have as many votes as those who convert, and that number changes daily.

Who gets the repossessed and deeded back weeks? If not Festiva do they go to Outfield? If so for what price? Do owners have an opportunity to purchase those weeks or are they automatically Outfield's to buy?


Since at least one member of Southscape's board is an employee of Outfield Marketing (Steve Lamantia), and another was a Blugreen exec who might or might not be associated with Festiva or Outfield Mktg., Festiva apparently has enough votes to get their people on the board. Where did those votes come from? Why is a big time ex Bluegreen executive wasting his time on the board of a small non Blugreen resort? Could it be that he has a business interest in Outfield, Festiva, or both? If there is not an ulterior motive I would be surprised but only time will tell. Possibly he might be legally obligated to disclose any affiliations he has with Outfield or Festiva since he is serving on the board. It would be a good thing for owners to know which board members running for office or currently in office have ties with Festiva or Outfield and would be worth checking into.

Why would owners at any resort allow a developer's representative or a Mktg company's employee to be on the board and make decisions about their resort? The reason why is because the owners who got talked into swapping their weeks for points gave up their ownership and their rights to vote on the current and future operations and upgrades at the resort. Not a good move IMO.

 

[somerville]

Here is some important info about Festiva Vacation Club:

"Response from Festiva"

And here is some important info about the members of Southcape's Board of Trustees:

Tom Franks

Steve Lamantia

I don't believe that anyone who is not a member of the Yahoo Equivest Group can read the posting that your link takes them to. I have obtained permission from the author to post the notes of his meeting with Festiva on TUG. However, if someone tells me the link works for non-members of the group, I will not post the report on TUG.

I can tell you that the report indicates that there are between five and six thousand Equivest Vacation and Travel Club members and about one third are in default of their maintenance payments. That is a staggering number.

 

[tombo]

I can tell you that the report indicates that there are between five and six thousand Equivest Vacation and Travel Club members and about one third are in default of their maintenance payments. That is a staggering number.

When they default do they automatically become Festiva Points? If so Festiva will control more votes and the remaining owners will have less say in their resorts. Of course if Festiva does get all of those defaults and has to pay all of those MF's, they might go broke. Conversely Festiva might break the owners backs by constantly increasing the MF's at the resorts to cover ever increasing expenses with less and less owners and few new FAC members to divide the costs between.

 

[Carolinian]

How much do these Festiva pirates own of the resort weeks? Often, given the turnout of real owners, a small percentage may swing the vote for the BOD. What you need to do is form a ''Concerned Owners'' committee and solicit proxies for a pro-member committee and put the Festiva pirates off your board. Concerned Owners committees kicked developer management out of four resorts I am familiar with on the NC Outer Banks, and owners did the same to Fairfield in the USVI. It just takes organizing.

 

[tombo]

How much do these Festiva pirates own of the resort weeks? Often, given the turnout of real owners, a small percentage may swing the vote for the BOD. What you need to do is form a ''Concerned Owners'' committee and solicit proxies for a pro-member committee and put the Festiva pirates off your board. Concerned Owners committees kicked developer management out of four resorts I am familiar with on the NC Outer Banks, and owners did the same to Fairfield in the USVI. It just takes organizing.

If the resort won't allow flyers to be placed in the resort mailings, and they won't give you a list of names and addresses of owners because they say it would violate privacy laws, then how can a group get in touch with the majority of owners. We would love some advice on how to proceed contacting owners to form a Concerned Owner's group. Other than the annual meeting where ony a small percentage of the owners will attend, and a couple of web sites like TUG and Yahoo, gaining access to the owners is impossible.