Duped again :-( No change when talked into upgrading to HGVMAX

[Tamaradarann]

Thank you -- I'll clarify -- I have both a home resort (Polo Towers) and points in the US collection. And when I said I only SAW Honolulu I'm just expressing what I actually saw available to book. I did not search every location. And I have looked at multiple weeks, but definitely not week 51 & 52.

So are you pleased with the availability of resorts that you can book with HGV/Max?

 

[trippka]

I will add a few bits here from the perspective of a DRI owner who converted to Max, and so far, is having issues. I own at Cabo Azul which is its own Collection - no other resorts in the Collection. I am Centum + level which means I have a lot of points to book. I like a 1 BR at my resort with an ocean view and ideally I would like to stay several weeks at a time. However, I am finding it has become very difficult to book at my home resort. Hilton is marketing the resort as a big wedding venue, and huge weddings or Quinceaneras are here. The guests prefer to stay at the resort which is understandable, but I don't understand where all the rooms are coming from. Does Hilton carve out the most desirable weeks/days specifically for cash visitors? When they take a big chunk of long weekends, I can't book my long stays. There are also a lot of people coming on "Dream Holidays", which are basically free weeks people who might be interested in buying a timeshare can take. That takes a lot of 4 day visits out of the available pool. OK, I can't book what I want at my home resort, so what about Hilton options? La Pacifica down the highway only seems to have small studios with no kitchens available to me as a Max owner, and the points are more than I think they should be. It is a wonderful resort, but it is in the middle of nowhere rather than in the middle of restaurants, etc. at Cabo Azul. OK, moving on. I wanted to go to NYC. I have been told I just need to use my Honors points. Huh? I bought Max so that I could use my Honors points???? I know there are things to work out, and I believe Hilton will get there. Until then, I will use what I can at my home resort and roll points into next year. Over time, Hilton will enhance the Diamond properties in Hawaii, etc. and I will have priority for them right after owners in that collection and ahead of Max owners coming in from the HGVC side.

 

[NachoDaddy]

I have been told I just need to use my Honors points. Huh? I bought Max so that I could use my Honors points???? I know there are things to work out, and I believe Hilton will get there. Until then, I will use what I can at my home resort and roll points into next year. Over time, Hilton will enhance the Diamond properties in Hawaii, etc. and I will have priority for them right after owners in that collection and ahead of Max owners coming in from the HGVC side.

To note, converting your Diamond points to HH points is about the worst way to use your Diamond points, financially speaking, and should only be thought about if you have use/lose points with no option of using them any other, more financially beneficial, way. Maint fees on a Diamond point (at Platinum level at least) are approximately 20.3 cents per point. An HH point has the value of 0.5 cents per point. When converting Diamond points to HH you get 16 HH points to each Diamond point. 16x0.5=8 cents of value in HH points from the 20.3 cent Diamond point. So just in the conversion, you have lost about 60% of the value of that original Diamond point. About the only thing you can do worse with a Diamond point (converting to HH points) is to throw it way.

 

[geist1223]

We are DRI Owners at Cabo Azul. We can not understand why any DRI Owner would buy into MAX. The Hilton Salesman got upset and terminated our "Update" early last Winter. The talk around the Quiet Pool by the DRI Owners was in agreement with our opinion.

 

[NachoDaddy]

We are DRI Owners at Cabo Azul. We can not understand why any DRI Owner would buy into MAX. The Hilton Salesman got upset and terminated our "Update" early last Winter. The talk around the Quiet Pool by the DRI Owners was in agreement with our opinion.

I just had an update in Branson where the sales person got upset that we had gone to 71 meetings (prior to this one) without making a purchase so he got up an left after 10 minutes but told us we had to sit there for the hour. Most money I've ever made playing on my phone for 45minutes.

 

[trippka]

To note, converting your Diamond points to HH points is about the worst way to use your Diamond points, financially speaking, and should only be thought about if you have use/lose points with no option of using them any other, more financially beneficial, way. Maint fees on a Diamond point (at Platinum level at least) are approximately 20.3 cents per point. An HH point has the value of 0.5 cents per point. When converting Diamond points to HH you get 16 HH points to each Diamond point. 16x0.5=8 cents of value in HH points from the 20.3 cent Diamond point. So just in the conversion, you have lost about 60% of the value of that original Diamond point. About the only thing you can do worse with a Diamond point (converting to HH points) is to throw it way.

In general I agree with what you say. However, my Diamond points are about half of you 20,3 cents/point. You can find the point cost in multiple places, and the cost of labor, etc. is much cheaper in Mexico. It is a newer resort as well, and was rebuilt after a hurricane so the maintenance requirements aren't as drastic for now. And, while converting from Diamond to Honors isn't a good deal, I have had a Hilton Amex card for decades, so I already have a lot of Honors points without converting. I use that Amex card for maintenance fees, costs during my Diamond stays, etc. In a salesman's eyes, they are "free". Hence, just use those...

 

[trippka]

We are DRI Owners at Cabo Azul. We can not understand why any DRI Owner would buy into MAX. The Hilton Salesman got upset and terminated our "Update" early last Winter. The talk around the Quiet Pool by the DRI Owners was in agreement with our opinion.

I completely understand your decision. With Max, a Diamond owner doesn't lose anything you have, but you are paying a pretty penny for the privilege of getting in line for the leftover rooms at Hilton Grand Vacations. I don't completely understand the inventory pools, but with time I am hoping that the inventory, room assignments, etc. are better for Max than for those who don't upgrade. I won't be offended if you tell me I am crazy to even hope for better treatment because of all the money I gave them to upgrade to Max.

 

[athea]

I married into this timeshare. My husband started with Monarch Grand Vacations, then upgraded to Diamond, then he was convinced in order to maximize benefits we needed to upgrade again. When Hilton purchased we again were led to believe we would miss being able to book great locations unless we joined / grandfathered into HGVMax (more thousands of dollars). In front of the sales staff I told them how many more times do we have to 'upgrade'? What are we really getting? Again we were told you will have so many more opportunities in our entire portfolio of locations. So here we are and I am trying to book up to a year in advance with no changes that I can see after being taken for another ride by Hilton/timeshare companies. Same trouble booking and not seeing new locations. I know it is our own fault for falling for this again. I tell all of my family and friends the most foolish 'investment' is a timeshare. Hopefully someday I can convince my husband we need to just let this go and save 8k a year in 'maintenance' fees.

Thank you everyone for all of the advice and comments. I will continue to try to use our 40k points to the best advantage. I was just trying to say that before Hilton bought out Diamond we saw a lot more places and better availability. After Hilton bought Diamond and ‘scared’ us into thinking if we did not spend another 20k to get into HGVMAX we would not have access to more resorts and would be ‘left behind’. The truth is we see less resorts availability whether it is 6 months or a year. And we see a lot of resorts that are 50k plus points which we don’t have.

 

[NachoDaddy]

I completely understand your decision. With Max, a Diamond owner doesn't lose anything you have, but you are paying a pretty penny for the privilege of getting in line for the leftover rooms at Hilton Grand Vacations. I don't completely understand the inventory pools, but with time I am hoping that the inventory, room assignments, etc. are better for Max than for those who don't upgrade. I won't be offended if you tell me I am crazy to even hope for better treatment because of all the money I gave them to upgrade to Max.

Why would you think an HGV Max/Diamond owner would get a better unit assignment than a Diamond Legacy owner? In the Diamond world, you're still just a Diamond owner and a Platinum owner trumps a Gold or Silver or Standard member owner. The only advantage you have as a Max owner is the ability to use your points to book an HGVC unit directly through Diamond and you can convert your points to HH points. Now, supposedly at some point in the future, there will be buildings built at Diamond locations that will be available for only those in HGV Max (Bent Creek is one of the locations I've heard about where they plan to build 2 more Golf Deluxe buildings) but those buildings will be for HGVC owners who are in Max, not Diamond owners. Diamond HGV Max owners will still only access the Diamond side of the inventory but it will allow HGVC owners more access to those locations. Being a HGV Max owners does not increase your status within the Diamond world, only increasing your points to certain levels (Silver/Gold/Platinum/Centum) will do that and many times, even that doesn't matter.

 

[NachoDaddy]

In general I agree with what you say. However, my Diamond points are about half of you 20,3 cents/point. You can find the point cost in multiple places, and the cost of labor, etc. is much cheaper in Mexico. It is a newer resort as well, and was rebuilt after a hurricane so the maintenance requirements aren't as drastic for now. And, while converting from Diamond to Honors isn't a good deal, I have had a Hilton Amex card for decades, so I already have a lot of Honors points without converting. I use that Amex card for maintenance fees, costs during my Diamond stays, etc. In a salesman's eyes, they are "free". Hence, just use those...

So you're telling me that when you divide your points by your total maint fees you're coming up to 10 cents a point? Sorry, but I find that difficult to be. I have heard maint fees are in the 15-17 cent point range and nothing in the Diamond system is in the 10 point range now. FYI, the 20 cent per point range is the US Collections maint fees.

 

[DRIless]

In general I agree with what you say. However, my Diamond points are about half of you 20,3 cents/point. You can find the point cost in multiple places, and the cost of labor, etc. is much cheaper in Mexico. It is a newer resort as well, and was rebuilt after a hurricane so the maintenance requirements aren't as drastic for now. And, while converting from Diamond to Honors isn't a good deal, I have had a Hilton Amex card for decades, so I already have a lot of Honors points without converting. I use that Amex card for maintenance fees, costs during my Diamond stays, etc. In a salesman's eyes, they are "free". Hence, just use those...

So you're telling me that when you divide your points by your total maint fees you're coming up to 10 cents a point? Sorry, but I find that difficult to be. I have heard maint fees are in the 15-17 cent point range and nothing in the Diamond system is in the 10 point range now. FYI, the 20 cent per point range is the US Collections maint fees.

Hopefully everyone knows what they paid to buy and what their ongoing (and escalating) annual costs are. With the possibility of so many permutations and combinations of purchases over the years, you shouldn't doubt someone when they tell you what they think their DRI annual costs are. My few remaining DRI contracts have an average MF of 10.1¢/pt, add the annual Club fees and it's 10.7¢/pt total.

 

[trippka]

Why would you think an HGV Max/Diamond owner would get a better unit assignment than a Diamond Legacy owner? In the Diamond world, you're still just a Diamond owner and a Platinum owner trumps a Gold or Silver or Standard member owner. The only advantage you have as a Max owner is the ability to use your points to book an HGVC unit directly through Diamond and you can convert your points to HH points. Now, supposedly at some point in the future, there will be buildings built at Diamond locations that will be available for only those in HGV Max (Bent Creek is one of the locations I've heard about where they plan to build 2 more Golf Deluxe buildings) but those buildings will be for HGVC owners who are in Max, not Diamond owners. Diamond HGV Max owners will still only access the Diamond side of the inventory but it will allow HGVC owners more access to those locations. Being a HGV Max owners does not increase your status within the Diamond world, only increasing your points to certain levels (Silver/Gold/Platinum/Centum) will do that and many times, even that doesn't matter.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. My understanding is that about half of Poipu is shut down for renovations and that Max Diamond members will get priority for the renovated rooms. I was in the Hawaii collection at one time. We had a big assessment for water intrusion. Diamond/Apollo took our money and gave it to a contractor to do the work. He did work, but the stucco is peeling off in big chunks because of water behind the stucco. Diamond sued the contractor, but he disappeared, and the chunks are still falling off. No interior work has been done in about a decade. I will let you know what building I get assigned if and when we go back. We were just there in February and have lots of pictures for comparison when we revisit. My belief is that Hilton will look after "their" folks before the Diamond folks who have given them nothing more than annual maintenance fees. I have checked at Cabo Azul and I can't get a list of priorities for room assignments, but I do know that I got an upgrade from what I paid for this visit. I am hopeful that will continue. Yes, I am Centum and I was Centum before Hilton came along. Perhaps that is the reason, and you are right that is all that matters.

 

[trippka]

NachoDaddy, The annual budgets for each collection are available. Anyone interested can request them or find them online in the files at several Facebook groups. Check for yourself what Cabo Azul members pay in maintenance fees. No need to tell us we don't know.

Hopefully everyone knows what they paid to buy and what their ongoing (and escalating) annual costs are. With the possibility of so many permutations and combinations of purchases over the years, you shouldn't doubt someone when they tell you what they think their DRI annual costs are. My few remaining DRI contracts have an average MF of 10.1¢/pt, add the annual Club fees and it's 10.7¢/pt total.

 

[NachoDaddy]

Hopefully everyone knows what they paid to buy and what their ongoing (and escalating) annual costs are. With the possibility of so many permutations and combinations of purchases over the years, you shouldn't doubt someone when they tell you what they think their DRI annual costs are. My few remaining DRI contracts have an average MF of 10.1¢/pt, add the annual Club fees and it's 10.7¢/pt total.

I question it because many people spout the verbatim maint fee costs that Diamond claims because they don't add in the base fees or other fees. To come up with the true point per cost, divide the annual maint fee bill by the number of points owned. That is the true point per cost.

So which collection are you paying only 10.7 cents per point in maint fees? I question anything that sounds so far off from being correct. And previous unusual purchases have nothing to do with maint fee costs in the different point collections. All point trust owners follow the same cost per point structure and the only way to have a different cost is to be a week owner versus being a point owner. I am also wary when people state "you can find so and so just about everywhere online" instead of just stating "I own X points with an annual maint fee of Y so that comes out to Z cents per point in maint fees". I have looked for said budgets and came up with nothing.

For the record, as a Platinum Legacy owner in the US Collection, my annual maint fees for 2023 was $10,165 and I own 50,000 points which means my cost per point in maint fees is 20.3 cents per point. This is approximately what every other US Collection owner pays (some slight variation due to having base fees and per point fees so the more points owned, the cost per point is slightly lower due to the base fees being spread over more points).

 

[DRIless]

I question it because many people spout the verbatim maint fee costs that Diamond claims because they don't add in the base fees or other fees. To come up with the true point per cost, divide the annual maint fee bill by the number of points owned. That is the true point per cost.

So which collection are you paying only 10.7 cents per point in maint fees? I question anything that sounds so far off from being correct. And previous unusual purchases have nothing to do with maint fee costs in the different point collections. All point trust owners follow the same cost per point structure and the only way to have a different cost is to be a week owner versus being a point owner. I am also wary when people state "you can find so and so just about everywhere online" instead of just stating "I own X points with an annual maint fee of Y so that comes out to Z cents per point in maint fees". I have looked for said budgets and came up with nothing.

For the record, as a Platinum Legacy owner in the US Collection, my annual maint fees for 2023 was $10,165 and I own 50,000 points which means my cost per point in maint fees is 20.3 cents per point. This is approximately what every other US Collection owner pays (some slight variation due to having base fees and per point fees so the more points owned, the cost per point is slightly lower due to the base fees being spread over more points).

No Nacho, to come up with the true ongoing cost per point you need to add up all annual fees plus any assessments for whatever it is that you own and divide by the total number of points. I already listed what my average 2023 maintenance fee was for my deeds and the a trust collection fee, as well as the Club fee which comes to me as a separate bill, to come up with the total fee per point. I never said I had a collection that was 10.7¢/pt. My trust collection, my only retail purchase, raises my average ¢/pt quite a bit. I have one deed that is only 8¢/pt. I feel quite fortunate.

 

[dayooper]

No Nacho, to come up with the true ongoing cost per point you need to add up all annual fees plus any assessments for whatever it is that you own and divide by the total number of points. I already listed what my average 2023 maintenance fee was for my deeds and the a trust collection fee, as well as the Club fee which comes to me as a separate bill, to come up with the total fee per point. I never said I had a collection that was 10.7¢/pt. My trust collection, my only retail purchase, raises my average ¢/pt quite a bit. I have one deed that is only 8¢/pt. I feel quite fortunate.

Can you still get your MF per point today or did that go away when DRI moved to a trust system?

 

[NachoDaddy]

No Nacho, to come up with the true ongoing cost per point you need to add up all annual fees plus any assessments for whatever it is that you own and divide by the total number of points. I already listed what my average 2023 maintenance fee was for my deeds and the a trust collection fee, as well as the Club fee which comes to me as a separate bill, to come up with the total fee per point. I never said I had a collection that was 10.7¢/pt. My trust collection, my only retail purchase, raises my average ¢/pt quite a bit. I have one deed that is only 8¢/pt. I feel quite fortunate.

Obviously if one has an assessment you have to add that in but having been in the US Collection for 16 years now, we have not had a single assessment to add into the maint fee costs. And mixing and averaging across multiple types of collections and week ownership doesn't represent a true cost when we are only talking about a specific type of ownership. Trippka is trying to claim that his singular cost per point in the Latino Collection is about 10 cents per point and I simply don't believe that. Seems he doesn't want to provide number or any proof to back up that claim but whatever, I just still simply don't believe the Latino Collection is 10 cents per point. He can believe what he wants to believe.

 

[DRIless]

Can you still get your MF per point today or did that go away when DRI moved to a trust system?

These low MF contracts were from the founding days of Club Sunterra in 1998. If they still let you convert deeds, keeping the deeds but 'pledging' them to The Club, then you could find deeds worth many, many points with a low annual fee for the deeded week and get them enrolled in The Club. They're out there, but there aren't as many as there were 25 years ago. Wow, it's been a long time.

 

[DRIless]

Obviously if one has an assessment you have to add that in but having been in the US Collection for 16 years now, we have not had a single assessment to add into the maint fee costs. And mixing and averaging across multiple types of collections and week ownership doesn't represent a true cost when we are only talking about a specific type of ownership. Trippka is trying to claim that his singular cost per point in the Latino Collection is about 10 cents per point and I simply don't believe that. Seems he doesn't want to provide number or any proof to back up that claim but whatever, I just still simply don't believe the Latino Collection is 10 cents per point. He can believe what he wants to believe.

Nothing is 'obviously.'
Duped again :-( No change when talked into upgrading to HGVMAX
wasn't talking about a specific type of ownership, maybe you were and it was obvious to you. Telling the poster with a Cabo Azul collection that you don't believe them once is fine, saying it over and over again doesn't make it more obvious that you don't believe them.

 

[youppi]

Obviously if one has an assessment you have to add that in but having been in the US Collection for 16 years now, we have not had a single assessment to add into the maint fee costs. And mixing and averaging across multiple types of collections and week ownership doesn't represent a true cost when we are only talking about a specific type of ownership. Trippka is trying to claim that his singular cost per point in the Latino Collection is about 10 cents per point and I simply don't believe that. Seems he doesn't want to provide number or any proof to back up that claim but whatever, I just still simply don't believe the Latino Collection is 10 cents per point. He can believe what he wants to believe.

Yes it's possible that the MF is around 10 cents in the Cabo Azul Collection.
The MF of each week in the trust should be low because the expenses are in Mexican Pesos.
Also the number of points is very high at Cabo Azul and this reduce the MF per points.

See below the picture of what HI Collection pays to each HOA resort of the collection as per the 2022 financial report of HI Collection.
The average was 13.666 cents but we paid 16.390 cents + 0.680 cents (GET) per point + $250 + 10.80 (GET) because of the management fees of the collection (15% of the budgeted expense) + all other administrative fees added in the Collection.
On top of that, we have to pay the Club fee ($200 + 0.54 cents per point).
Just check how Sedona Summit and Villas at Polo Towers MF/pts are low at around 8 to 9 cents.
So, if Cabo Azul MF of each week is similar to Sedona Summit then yes the MF of the Cabo Azul Collection can be around 10 cents per point.

The US Collection MF in 2022 (17.908 cents per point + $230) was a little more expensive than the HI Collection and the California Collection (17.328 cents per point + $???).
The Premier Collection MF was $????
All the above collections have a separate THE Club fee to pay.
The Europe Collection was cheaper at £0.08980 per point + £556. The Europe Collection doesn't have a separate THE Club fee to pay. Their base fee (£556) includes the THE Club fee.

 

[trippka]

I question it because many people spout the verbatim maint fee costs that Diamond claims because they don't add in the base fees or other fees. To come up with the true point per cost, divide the annual maint fee bill by the number of points owned. That is the true point per cost.

So which collection are you paying only 10.7 cents per point in maint fees? I question anything that sounds so far off from being correct. And previous unusual purchases have nothing to do with maint fee costs in the different point collections. All point trust owners follow the same cost per point structure and the only way to have a different cost is to be a week owner versus being a point owner. I am also wary when people state "you can find so and so just about everywhere online" instead of just stating "I own X points with an annual maint fee of Y so that comes out to Z cents per point in maint fees". I have looked for said budgets and came up with nothing.

For the record, as a Platinum Legacy owner in the US Collection, my annual maint fees for 2023 was $10,165 and I own 50,000 points which means my cost per point in maint fees is 20.3 cents per point. This is approximately what every other US Collection owner pays (some slight variation due to having base fees and per point fees so the more points owned, the cost per point is slightly lower due to the base fees being spread over more points).

I stand corrected on at least one point you have made. It seems that Hilton has removed the maintenance fee statements, perhaps because I did Max? All of my points have been purchased from Diamond. There is no complicated legacy situation. I had legacy weeks at Kaanapali, but I sold them to Diamond and received Cabo Azul points in their trust. That impacted what I paid up front but doesn't impact what is paid annually. You can choose not to believe me, but I haven't changed my mind about what I pay annually per point. I am sure there is someone at Diamond who can provide the operating budget to you. In the mean time, I get this when I go to where it is supposed to be now that I login to theclub.hiltongrandvacation.com

 

[youppi]

I stand corrected on at least one point you have made. It seems that Hilton has removed the maintenance fee statements, perhaps because I did Max? All of my points have been purchased from Diamond. There is no complicated legacy situation. I had legacy weeks at Kaanapali, but I sold them to Diamond and received Cabo Azul points in their trust. That impacted what I paid up front but doesn't impact what is paid annually. You can choose not to believe me, but I haven't changed my mind about what I pay annually per point. I am sure there is someone at Diamond who can provide the operating budget to you. In the mean time, I get this when I go to where it is supposed to be now that I login to theclub.hiltongrandvacation.com View attachment 79457View attachment 79457

Do you have the financial report of Cabo Azul Collection ?
They could be in https://theclub.hiltongrandvacations.com/Hoa/BoardCommittee/AuditedFinancials if they are at the same place of HI Collection.
It would be nice to see the evolution of the collection in term of number of week and points in the collection.

 

[trippka]

Do you have the financial report of Cabo Azul Collection ?
They could be in https://theclub.hiltongrandvacations.com/Hoa/BoardCommittee/AuditedFinancials if they are at the same place of HI Collection.
It would be nice to see the evolution of the collection in term of number of week and points in the collection.

No, I get the same server error. I have reported the problem. Once I get access, I will check the link you provided. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[trippka]

No, I get the same server error. I have reported the problem. Once I get access, I will check the link you provided. Thank you for the suggestion.

View attachment 79466

I still can't get access to the link you sent, but I have access to this overall budget now. Still waiting for full access to what I used to have for Cabo Azul. Yes, a little more than $ .10/point, but I said my dues were about half of the approx. $.21/point quoted for the US Collection. Happy to hear why my arithmetic is bad and why I am paying the same as the US Collection. Always happy to learn more about my timeshares.

 

[youppi]

There is a big difference with the Hawaii & US Collections.
The Management Fees of HI Collection is 15% of ($84,307,974 - $605,363 + $3,720,098 + $2,186,962) = $13,441,451
The Management Fees of US Collection is also 15% of the expense budget but I don't know their budget.
The Management Fees of Cabo Azul is less than 2% from what I see, there are no General & Administrative fees and many expenses are in Mexican pesos converted to USD.

US Collection MF in 2023: $0.19122 per point + $230 base + the same THE Club fee as Hawaii Collection and Cabo Azul Resort.