Do we have a right to owners' roster?

[normbailey]

. . . a very fine line between their perceived interest in promoting their cause and my interest in maintaining my privacy . . .

Thank you, Fred. You succinctly stated what I was trying to express but failed to do so. I hope an answer eventually emerges from all of this.

The more I read of this topic, here and on the wmowners.com forum, the more I picture Star Wars in my mind. With Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Knights taking on Darth Vader and the Evil Empire.....

 

[RichM]

"it says these records "shall be made available for inspection and copying"

My interpretation of this is I can look at it and IF I have brought a copier with me I can copy the documents.

Faye - this is covered as well in the same section:

7: RECORDS AND REPORTS
7.1 Inspections.
7.1(a) Members. The Articles, Bylaws, Declaration,
Rules, Membership register (including mailing addresses and
telephone numbers) or duplicate Membership register, the books of
account and minutes of proceedings of the Members, the Board and
any committees, and all other records of the Program maintained by
the Club or its Manager, shall be made available for inspection and
copying, upon written demand and reasonable notice, by any Member
or his duly appointed representative, at any reasonable time and
for a purpose reasonably related to his interests as a Member. The
Club may restrict the use of information from the Membership
register by requiring Members to sign a written agreement not to
use or allow use of Membership information for commercial or other
purposes not reasonably related to the affairs of the Club. An
original or copy of the Articles and Bylaws, as amended to date,
shall be kept at the principal office of the Club and shall be open
to inspection by the Members at all reasonable times during office
hours. The records shall be made available for inspection at the
office where the records are maintained. Upon receipt of an
authenticated written request from a Member along with the fee
prescribed by the Board to defray the costs of reproduction, the
Manager or other custodian of records shall prepare and transmit to
the Member a copy of any and all records requested.

They would just bill the requestor for fees to copy the records.

It's all clearly spelled out.


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[RichM]

Thank you, Fred. You succinctly stated what I was trying to express but failed to do so. I hope an answer eventually emerges from all of this.

The more I read of this topic, here and on the wmowners.com forum, the more I picture Star Wars in my mind. With Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Knights taking on Darth Vader and the Evil Empire.....

It's not about good vs. evil, it's simply about exercising rights spelled out in the bylaws. As long as the request is made for a purpose in-line with club business, privacy issues are moot since the bylaws are given to every owner at the time of purchase. I still contend that various hypothetical purposes proposed in this thread are in-line with the guidelines of usage set forth in the bylaws.


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[normbailey]

It's not about good vs. evil, it's simply about exercising rights spelled out in the bylaws. As long as the request is made for a purpose in-line with club business, privacy issues are moot since the bylaws are given to every owner at the time of purchase. I still contend that various hypothetical purposes proposed in this thread are in-line with the guidelines of usage set forth in the bylaws.

I believe you corrected me previously for using the word "request" instead of the word "demand", as is written in the bylaws. Now you've used the word "request" here yourself.

So, I staunchly hold my position that any owner can solicit the list, in accordance with the bylaws, but I don't believe that it's mandatory that the club comply with every such demand. I believe the club still has a higher responsibility and that is to assess each such demand/request/solicitation on its own, and make the necessary judgment call as to whether said demand/request/solicitation is indeed within the conditions set forth in those bylaws.

That's their fiduciary responsibility and that's what we elect them to do. If some of the ownership disagrees with their position they can do a number of things such as petition for a revision to the bylaws, campaign to replace the board, take legal action, and so on.

For me, I think I'm going to save my bits and bites for more meaningful (to me) discussions. My bits and bytes buckets are running low right now, and the last time I was at Office Depot they were out of the bits and bytes that work in my keyboard, so I've got them on back order. I'd hate to run out of them in the middle of an important thou.......

Dang. There they go.

 

[RichM]

Actually, I responded to you when you said:

Those bylaws clearly state that a request can be made by any owner. They DO NOT, however, state that the response has to be yes from the club.

By quoting the bylaws which state:

these records "shall be made available for inspection and copying, upon written demand and reasonable notice".

The point I was making had nothing to do with the word "request" or "demand", it had to do with the fact that the bylaws don't leave any room for the Club to decide whether or not to release the records if/when they are requested, demanded, whatever.

The bylaws simply say that the records "shall be made available" when asked for.

The only restriction the Club may place is also spelled out:

The Club may restrict the use of information from the Membership
register by requiring Members to sign a written agreement not to
use or allow use of Membership information for commercial or other
purposes not reasonably related to the affairs of the Club.

So, the records "shall be made available", but the requestor may have to sign an agreement promising to use them only for Club purposes.

Seems simple enough.

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[normbailey]

The point I was making had nothing to do with the word "request" or "demand", it had to do with the fact that the bylaws don't leave any room for the Club to decide whether or not to release the records if/when they are requested, demanded, whatever.

If the point you were trying to make was what you just stated, why the heck did you feel it necessary to say It does not say "a request can be made" it says ......."?

I was just paraphrasing the bylaws, the same as you keep doing in your responses back to me. Just like your statement The bylaws simply say that the records "shall be made available" when asked for.

Seems to me that using words like ask, request, etc. should be acceptable interpretations and paraphrasing of the quoted bylaw.

So, if I'm reading your statements correctly, you're saying that every single member of the club has a right to ask for and be given a copy of the master list of members, their addresses and phone numbers. And all they have to do is sign the paper and pay whatever fee is required.

How practical is that? I don't know the exact number of owners, but if all of them were to do that, and the club was obliged to fulfill that "order" for lists, why not just make them a part of the annual mailing of the voting information?

Why? Because I don't believe the "spirit" of this bylaw was what is being interpreted by some. There is a huge difference between some "letters of the law" and the "spirit of those laws". That's where the legal system really earns their money, sorting out all of that.

I have a feeling that this alleged legal action being pursued by some to get copies of the master list are going to bring out the spirit as well as the letter of the law. The final decision will be interesting. I'll make a prediction here and now that the bylaw will be revised as a result, and it will be done according to the process defined by the bylaws themselves - through a vote by the membership.

As for me, I'm done with this thread. You've got your position and I'm not going to try to change your mind. It would be futile. Just as futile as you trying to change my mind.

Next time we're in a resort at the same time, though, let me buy you a beer/cocktail/soft drink/whatever, because I think we're both lucky to be living in such a wonderful country where we can debate/disagree like this and still coexist peacefully.

Cheers,
Norm

 

[RichM]

So, if I'm reading your statements correctly, you're saying that every single member of the club has a right to ask for and be given a copy of the master list of members, their addresses and phone numbers. And all they have to do is sign the paper and pay whatever fee is required.

That's exactly what I'm trying to state.

How practical is that? I don't know the exact number of owners, but if all of them were to do that, and the club was obliged to fulfill that "order" for lists, why not just make them a part of the annual mailing of the voting information?

Great idea!


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[normbailey]

That's exactly what I'm trying to state.



Great idea!


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Maybe a complete information release on all WorldMark levels would be appropriate. Including those unofficial sites like your wmowners.com website? How about if all of us who participate on the wmowners.com forum are given the full names and email addresses, matched up to usernames, of all participants on that website?

Seems simple enough to provide, and I certainly can't see any reason why it shouldn't be available. I know that some of us actually use our real names anyway.

Oh, and on the subject of your wmowners.com website, I encountered a very unusual situation back in December as I was making my final decision on who to cast my votes for. I went in and did a search on author name and found all of the posts by Jim Pappas. That was helpful. Then I tried to find all the posts made by Philip Abdouch. But the system couldn't find anything for the author search criteria of PA.

So, I then went hopping through various threads until I found a post by him. I then clicked on his username and it brought up his profile. But, when I clicked on the link that said Find all posts by PA, it gave me the same error message. Very odd.

I put my name in. Found them all. I put roadsister in. Found them all.

But, it appears that if a username is too short, the system can't find the posts. All you get is the error message No topics or posts met your search criteria.....

Any idea on why that happens? It sure made it difficult for me to find helpful information in formulating a final voting decision.

 

[RichM]

As for the wmowners.com site, it's not mine, I just help administer the forum. The site is owned and operated by an independent, non-profit corporation founded by a group of WorldMark owners.

Your situation with searching all posts by PA was brought up by someone else and it's a bug in the forum software (phpBB). Nena uses the username "N" on wmowners.com, so I suspect you'd have the same trouble finding all her posts as well.


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[ThaiChef]

Hello Jay, it’s been a while since we last communicated. After reading your posts on this subject I have one question that I didn’t see answered. To the best of my knowledge you were not a candidate for the board or for any other position within WorldMark or Trendwest or Cendant. So my question is, what specifically was your reason for requesting the owner list?

Hi Fred,

It has been a long time. I hope all is well with you.

I was not a candidate for the board of directors, although I do expect to run in the future.

My specific reason for requesting the owners list is to create a channel of communication between owners which is outside the (very restrictive) channels provided by management.

Luckily both state law and WorldMark bylaws give me the right to obtain the list of owners (names, addresses and phone numbers).

People who are offended by these bylaws and state laws shouldn't get upset with owners who seek to obtain the list. They should voice their displeasure with their state legislatures.

While it possible (not likely) to get a bylaws change regarding the owners list, bylaws cannot supercede state law. Until state laws are changed, non-profit corporations must comply with lawful requests for the owners list.

It is important to remember that I've discussed this, in person, with members of the board of directors. There was no evaluation done of whether or not my intent was in line with my interests as a member. I was told that under no conditions have they provided anyone access to the list. Even directors are denied access to the list. They also told me that many owners have asked for access to the list, so it's not as though I'm the first owner who has felt it necessary to communicate with owners outside the channels provided by management.

IMO, there is absolutely no condition in which they will voluntarily give access to the list. The bylaws do allow for some level of access to the list, yet they deny all access to the list. Whether or not people feel that others should have access ot the list, don't people feel that the board of directors should be bound to abide by the bylaws of our club?

Good to hear from you again

--Jay

 

[normbailey]

As for the wmowners.com site, it's not mine, I just help administer the forum. The site is owned and operated by an independent, non-profit corporation founded by a group of WorldMark owners.

Your situation with searching all posts by PA was brought up by someone else and it's a bug in the forum software (phpBB). Nena uses the username "N" on wmowners.com, so I suspect you'd have the same trouble finding all her posts as well.

You're right. I tried just the 'N' and got the same results. So, who do I contact to get a list of the usernames matched up with real names and emails? I looked for a "Forum Rules" link at the site, but couldn't find anything that resembled that, so I couldn't find out if there were any written restrictions on this sort of request.

Just out of curiosity, what is the name and tax id of the non-profit organization, and who are the WM owners who comprise the founding and funding group. Seems to me that they did a great service to owners when the other WM forum was suddenly shut down, and being able to appreciate them publicly would be nice.

 

[ThaiChef]

You're right. I tried just the 'N' and got the same results. So, who do I contact to get a list of the usernames matched up with real names and emails? I looked for a "Forum Rules" link at the site, but couldn't find anything that resembled that, so I couldn't find out if there were any written restrictions on this sort of request.

Just out of curiosity, what is the name and tax id of the non-profit organization, and who are the WM owners who comprise the founding and funding group. Seems to me that they did a great service to owners when the other WM forum was suddenly shut down, and being able to appreciate them publicly would be nice.

Norm,

I'm also one of the founding members of wmowners.com. The name of the non-profit corporation is WM OWNERS, Inc.

I'll leave it to others to announce their involvement with our little corporation.

The people involved with WM OWNERS, Inc. have spent hundreds of hours working to make the corporation and the wmowners.com site be successful. The goal of WM OWNERS, Inc. is to be a positive resource to WorldMark owners. Wmowners.com is a forum provided by WM OWNERS, Inc for WorldMark owners to have a place to openly and freely discuss any aspect of their club.

I love WorldMark. I love the concept of a club. I want to be able to contact the owners in my area and invite them to get together and discuss our club. People have book clubs, and quilt clubs...why not a local WorldMark club where we get together and talk about our club? That's not possible without me contacting owners who are in my area.

I hope that your holidays were wonderful and that 2006 is the best year ever!


--Jay

 

[Theresa]

Seems to me that they did a great service to owners when the other WM forum was suddenly shut down, and being able to appreciate them publicly would be nice.

Hello Norm,

Happy New Year to you!

First let me say, I love our Club!
When that shutdown you referred to happened, I got to thinking that, wow, if we needed a way to contact other members of our Club for Club purposes, we would be helpless. Granted, 4M participation is a very small percentage, but at least it's one way to communicate about our Club. Several other owners thought the same way, and thus....www.wmowners.com was started.

Nothing sinister, nothing undermining, no evil intent in mind.....just a means of offering a point of contact for owners.

Have a Great Day!
Theresa

 

[RichM]

Hi Jay, Theresa It has been a slow process getting a non-profit corporation created with only volunteer members. At this point, there's only a small voting membership (12 I believe?) and the first board of directors has not yet been elected.

As far as the WM Owners membership list, Norm, the WM Owners, Inc. bylaws do suggest it to be just as available as the WorldMark the Club bylaws. However, that availability would be to the membership of WM Owners, Inc. and, at this time, since the corporation is still in its startup process, there are only 12 members. (Registering for the public discussion forum is unrelated to being part of the corporate membership as it's open to anyone. In fact, there are even people who have registered multiple accounts in an attempt to disguise their true identities while posting). In the private membership area of the forum, however, there is already a complete list of voting members and their contact information.

As far as a Tax ID, I don't think that's been applied for yet as the first board of directors is not yet elected, from which a treasurer would be appointed. Up to this point, all expenses have been paid for out-of-pocket by the core group of volunteers. No donations have been solicited and the ones that were offered without solicitation have been refused as there's no way to accept them.

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[normbailey]

Jay, Theresa, Rich,

Thank you for the responses and the information. I want to go on record here as stating that I totally deplored the sudden and surprise shutdown of the previous WorldMark forum. I was very enthusiastic when I learned about wmowners.com and the ability to re-establish contact with other owners I'd come to know and appreciate as friends - and who were suddenly out of reach. Luckily I had already established some strong personal ties and didn't totally lose touch, but still . . . the notion of punishing the masses for the sake of curtailing a few didn't set at all with me.

I plan to continue to participate in the wmowners.com forum as well as here on TUG and the Trendwest forum. But, I'm trying to get a true grasp on where each one of these is coming from. I already know the WM side, and am fairly familiar with the TUG side. It's just the wmowners.com side that I'm still relatively ignorant about.

Rich, your response raised one question in my mind.

In the private membership area of the forum, however, there is already a complete list of voting members and their contact information.

Would the private membership side of the forum you mention be only available to the 12 members of the current corporate structure, or is the private membership side open to anyone? I'm not clear on what constitutes the private membership side.

Norm

 

[ThaiChef]

Jay, Theresa, Rich,

Thank you for the responses and the information. I want to go on record here as stating that I totally deplored the sudden and surprise shutdown of the previous WorldMark forum. I was very enthusiastic when I learned about wmowners.com and the ability to re-establish contact with other owners I'd come to know and appreciate as friends - and who were suddenly out of reach. Luckily I had already established some strong personal ties and didn't totally lose touch, but still . . . the notion of punishing the masses for the sake of curtailing a few didn't set at all with me.

I plan to continue to participate in the wmowners.com forum as well as here on TUG and the Trendwest forum. But, I'm trying to get a true grasp on where each one of these is coming from. I already know the WM side, and am fairly familiar with the TUG side. It's just the wmowners.com side that I'm still relatively ignorant about.

Rich, your response raised one question in my mind.



Would the private membership side of the forum you mention be only available to the 12 members of the current corporate structure, or is the private membership side open to anyone? I'm not clear on what constitutes the private membership side.

Norm

Norm,

There is a forum that is used for collaboration between voting members of WM OWNERS, Inc. That forum is restricted to the voting members.

I'm not sure what that has to do with finding out where WM OWNERS, Inc. is coming from.

I think that the welcome screen of wmowners.com best describes the intent and purpose of WM OWNERS, Inc....here's what it says:


It's finally here!

Thanks to a lot of work and cooperation from WorldMark owners across the country, the WM Owners website has finally arrived. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your patience and we hope you enjoy this "BY OWNERS, FOR OWNERS" resource.

This organization was created BY OWNERS, FOR OWNERS in order to provide a community where owners and potential owners alike could congregate, share information, learn tips and tricks and foster new friendships.

Our intent is to provide a "community" where owners and potential owners can freely discuss and share topics that are of importance or interest to them, whether vacation-related or not. This community puts the "CLUB" back in the club by creating a virtual gathering place. A country club run by you!

It is our experience that WorldMark owners are the most interesting and enjoyable people in existence. For that reason we have provided a forum where free-flowing discussion can be as diverse and fascinating as the owners themselves.

We now invite you to explore the WM Owners website. This site offers a full range of OWNER-submitted input including resort reviews, photos, a discussion forum, and much more. This community will confirm that belonging to WorldMark is truly one of the most life-altering and enjoyable experiences that a family can have. Please forward the link www.wmowners.com to your friends and invite them to your community!

WMOwners.com is BY OWNERS, FOR OWNERS and in staying true with that concept, we invite you to submit future story ideas, tips, photos and especially those wild and woolly vacation tales! Your participation is encouraged -- use the Contact Us link in the bar to the left. So welcome, dive in, explore and don't be shy; This is truly YOUR community!

 

[ThaiChef]

I've just realized how off-topic we've gotten here. My apologies to RickandCindy and to our hosts here at TUG for my part in going so off topic here.

I'll stop posting about WM OWNERS, Inc. on this thread and suggest that we move this discussion to another location so that this thread might continue to discuss the relevant topic of obtaining the owner's list.

--Jay

 

[ngray]

You're right. I tried just the 'N' and got the same results. Seems to me that they did a great service to owners when the other WM forum was suddenly shut down, and being able to appreciate them publicly would be nice.

Hi Norm, hope your holidays were great, mine were!
For those who don't know me, I am "N".......sounds rather mysterious coming in on this thread late. I was following along, but got sidetracked.
I recall you search for PA's posts and the result gave me an insight I hadn't realized before. But am not going to change my name there.

I know you have struggled with understanding the intent of wmowners.com ; sometimes things are soooo simple they seem the opposite.

As you know, I joined in the very early days of wmowners.com , before it was that. We were piggy backing on TKS just to keep communication open. At the time many things were happening with TW/CD and I feared we would have no way to keep in contact with other owners. No organized way to keep in touch about the ever changing scope of our club. No where to complain, No where to share our memories freely.
It has been a long and ardous 2 + years. It has, for me, been a labor of love, hoping to keep in contact with friends from the old WM4M, making new friends and memories. At times I take it too seriously, and other times I don't devote enough time to the details to make it a stronger forum. And sometimes I am OT!
There has absolutely never been a sinister or evil agenda associated with the project.
To preserve our goal, keeping in contact with owners, we doggedly kept working with a very small crew of 12-14 over time. Most of the original bunch are still around, tired and worn, but still around with differing commitment levels. Likely, not all will continue and others will commit.
The true goal is/was to get it up and running and that more owners would want to become more involved over the passage of time.
Simply put, to make sure we have a continued communication venue for wmowners.
We still invite people to volunteer in a number of ways. I believe I may have even mentioned it to you, since I mention it to everyone it seems.
There isn't much to know.......what you see is pretty much what you get. I think you/others get a lot for their 0 buck, but that's just my own opinion.
Ever need another way to pass time........join us!

 

[normbailey]

There is a forum that is used for collaboration between voting members of WM OWNERS, Inc. That forum is restricted to the voting members.

I'm not sure what that has to do with finding out where WM OWNERS, Inc. is coming from.

Jay,

Thanks for the answer. Your first sentence pretty much answered my question. As to finding out where wmowners.com is coming from, I know the names and faces of the folks on the WM BOD, and I know a lot of the names and faces for the various folks behind the scenes at TW and WM.

I also know that Bill Rogers founded TUG and his About TUG page tells a good story about who he is and how they got started and where they're headed.

When I was trying to learn more about wmowners.com, I couldn't find anything about the background of the organization. When it first started to emerge, I heard about it the same way a lot of other folks probably heard about it.....from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend.

It's never really been clear to me as to who the folks behind the scenes are, who started the organization, etc. It just seems to me that if the site is "By WM owners and for WM owners", it shouldn't be much of a problem to state who's running the operation and maybe have some photos and profiles available. Backgrounds and such.

Of course, if someone is in the witness protection program, I certainly wouldn't want them to blow their cover......(that was said in jest, by the way).

 

[ngray]

It just seems to me that if the site is "By WM owners and for WM owners", it shouldn't be much of a problem to state who's running the operation and maybe have some photos and profiles available. Backgrounds and such.

Of course, if someone is in the witness protection program, I certainly wouldn't want them to blow their cover......(that was said in jest, by the way).

OK you blew my cover.....I really am in a witness program and all the mug shots of me and comments to my connection to the operation of the forum are a trick to trick you into thinking I am N instead of ngray aka Nema, I mean Nena! I forget sometimes who I am.
Now I am OT N, Nena, ngray! Shoot someone will come after me now, that is my most famous M.O.
Bye! Gotta find a new name!

 

[ThaiChef]

Of course, if someone is in the witness protection program, I certainly wouldn't want them to blow their cover......(that was said in jest, by the way).

Norm, I can't wait to meet you one of these days...that was funny.




--Jay

 

[roadsister]

Norm wrote: "It's never really been clear to me as to who the folks behind the scenes are, who started the organization, etc. It just seems to me that if the site is "By WM owners and for WM owners", it shouldn't be much of a problem to state who's running the operation..."

Norm,
At one point I requested who the owners were that started the site and who ultimately post as "Modsquad" (the monitors) but the information was not given, just that 'they' take care of the forum. It made me feel like an outsider/a lesser owner on the site. I couldn't understand why the secrecy.

I guess 'lists' are a taboo subject no matter where you ask, eh?

 

[normbailey]

OK you blew my cover.....I really am in a witness program and all the mug shots of me and comments to my connection to the operation of the forum are a trick to trick you into thinking I am N instead of ngray aka Nema, I mean Nena! I forget sometimes who I am.
Now I am OT N, Nena, ngray! Shoot someone will come after me now, that is my most famous M.O.
Bye! Gotta find a new name!

Hey, Nena....excuse me "N"....when you lay down are you "Z"?

 

[normbailey]

Norm wrote: "It's never really been clear to me as to who the folks behind the scenes are, who started the organization, etc. It just seems to me that if the site is "By WM owners and for WM owners", it shouldn't be much of a problem to state who's running the operation..."

Norm,
At one point I requested who the owners were that started the site and who ultimately post as "Modsquad" (the monitors) but the information was not given, just that 'they' take care of the forum. It made me feel like an outsider/a lesser owner on the site. I couldn't understand why the secrecy.

I guess 'lists' are a taboo subject no matter where you ask, eh?

Faye,

Sometimes a non-answer is one of the loudest and most unmistakable answers you can receive. Either that, or some people have a really bad case of short-term memory deficit.

 

[RichM]

I guess 'lists' are a taboo subject no matter where you ask, eh?

Nope, both should be available to the voting membership of each, per the bylaws of both. One is, one isn't.


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