Do we have a right to owners' roster?

[rickandcindy23]

Do timeshare owners have a right to ask the board/ management company for a list of timeshare owners' names, addresses and phone numbers?

This has come up at our resort in Colorado. I say yes, absolutely, and I am a very new board member at the resort. The other board members are defering to the management company on the issue. What is your take?

As a Realtor, I know that public records are open to anyone. The problem is that timeshare records are vague in Grand County and probably everywhere. Basically, all you get are the names of the owners with some information but not home address. I guess that is because the resort as a whole pays property taxes and bills the owners individually, so the county doesn't care where you are.

Moderators, I did not know where to put this thread and hope to get responses here, but if you think another spot is more appropriate, please move this thread. Thanks!

 

[Dave M]

Yes, you definitely have the right to ask. However, most resorts will refuse to provide owners' lists.

The CC&Rs (bylaws, master deed, rules & regs, etc.) for some resorts make it clear that such lists are not available to owners. Your best bet is to review your copy of those documents very carefully. They typically spell out what rights you have as an owner.

 

[RichM]

The WorldMark bylaws specifically state that we DO have the right to a list of owners but I know of at least two owners who have been refused such a list when they requested it - privacy reasons or some such nonsense even though the bylaws make it clear it cannot be used for commercial purposes, only for club business.


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- www.wmowners.com

 

[JeffV]

I think there is a real privacy issue here. I would be very unhappy if I found that the resort had given my personal information out to anyone.

 

[Kal]

Just put yourself in the shoes of timeshare owner (M. Fatcat). His wife doesn't know anything about owning a timeshare as Fatcat only shares it with his girlfriend. Then someone sends a letter mentioning the timeshare to Fatcat's home. Wifey may have something to say about this while Fatcat will sue anyone he can get his hands on starting with the BOD.

 

[RichM]

The fact that bylaws given to you at the time of purchase stating that a list of owners may be made available on request should trump any privacy issues - if you don't agree, you don't purchase.

As for the cheating husband, that's pretty preposterous. I don't believe there's any tortious act in accidentally revealing adultery of which one isn't aware.


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- www.wmowners.com

 

[timeos2]

Do timeshare owners have a right to ask the board/ management company for a list of timeshare owners' names, addresses and phone numbers?

This has come up at our resort in Colorado. I say yes, absolutely, and I am a very new board member at the resort. The other board members are defering to the management company on the issue. What is your take?

As a Realtor, I know that public records are open to anyone. The problem is that timeshare records are vague in Grand County and probably everywhere. Basically, all you get are the names of the owners with some information but not home address. I guess that is because the resort as a whole pays property taxes and bills the owners individually, so the county doesn't care where you are.

Moderators, I did not know where to put this thread and hope to get responses here, but if you think another spot is more appropriate, please move this thread. Thanks!

As you can guess from the other replies "it depends". In Florida you absolutely DO NOT have a right to it. You can see it but you cannot use it to contact owners - only the Association has that right. I know that seems to fly in the face of logic but it is done to protect the owners from unsolicited mail, calls etc. Of course the Developers allowed it as it also makes it hard for owners to find each other and to act as a group against them. I know in one case it took a lot of work to get the news out to owners when the management, who had also been the devleoper, didn't want it to be sent. The owners won but it took a court battle to do so. The HOA Board had the ultimate say as they alone had the right to use the list for mailing resort information purposes

 

[RichM]

I know in one case it took a lot of work to get the news out to owners when the management, who had also been the devleoper, didn't want it to be sent. The owners won but it took a court battle to do so.

This is exactly the situation WorldMark owners are in and would be in if there were some need to contact owners independent of the developer/management company, especially since the BOD is also controlled by employees (past and/or present) from the developer/management company.


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- www.wmowners.com

 

[roadsister]

Some thoughts:

1. If someone were granted a list, what good would a list of owners' names do with no addresses? And I can't imagine a membership's info would stipulate that phone numbers must be given.

2. Say there was a mass mailing planned to a timeshares 223,000 owners - who would come up with the roughly $82,510.00 for stamps??? And then we would get back to the point of why press for it when ya can't afford to use it - just to say "I made them give it to me"?

3. I don't want my privacy issues to be taken lightly.....I gave the timeshare permission to the information, not a few disgruntled timeshare owners, and would be very upset if every Tom, Dick, and Harry were allowed to request, receive, and review my personal information.

4. I am realistic and know that there are some problems with ALL timeshares, and not everyone agrees with everything that takes place with the developers, management, etc. There are issues that I don't like, and if they bother me enough to where I can't live with them I will sell my timeshare and be done with it.

 

[Keitht]

I would also be extremely unhappy if anybody with a connection to the resort could freely access information about my home address and phone number. It's all very well to state that the information cannot be used for commercial purposes, but once it is in the public domain it is very difficult to control.

 

[BocaBum99]

Just put yourself in the shoes of timeshare owner (M. Fatcat). His wife doesn't know anything about owning a timeshare as Fatcat only shares it with his girlfriend. Then someone sends a letter mentioning the timeshare to Fatcat's home. Wifey may have something to say about this while Fatcat will sue anyone he can get his hands on starting with the BOD.

Not sure this would be true since the resort needs to send you a maintenance fee and/or tax bill every year. So, any correspondance could go directly to that same address and it could be related to timeshare business.

 

[caribbeansun]

The Board of Directors would have access to the information however, at least in Canada, the Privacy Act would shut down your ability to use that data for anything other than the purpose it was intended for. I suspect that different states in the US would have similar laws.

 

[RichM]

Some thoughts:

1. If someone were granted a list, what good would a list of owners' names do with no addresses? And I can't imagine a membership's info would stipulate that phone numbers must be given.

Guess you better read the WorldMark bylaws that you agreed to when you purchased:

7: RECORDS AND REPORTS
7.1 Inspections.
7.l(a) Members. The Articles, Bylaws, Declaration,
Rules, Membership register (including mailing addresses and
telephone numbers) or duplicate Membership register, the books of
account and minutes of proceedings of the Members, the Board and
any committees, and all other records of the Program maintained by
the Club or its Manager, shall be made available for inspection and
copying, upon written demand and reasonable notice, by any Member
or his duly appointed representative, at any reasonable time and
for a purpose reasonably related to his interests as a Member. The
Club may restrict the use of information from the Membership
register by requiring Members to sign a written agreement not to
use or allow use of Membership information for commercial or other
purposes not reasonably related to the affairs of the Club.

2. Say there was a mass mailing planned to a timeshares 223,000 owners - who would come up with the roughly $82,510.00 for stamps??? And then we would get back to the point of why press for it when ya can't afford to use it - just to say "I made them give it to me"?

Since the list, at least in the case of WorldMark, includes phone numbers, there's no reason why it would need to cost that much to contact a large percentage of owners on the list. With free night/weekend cellphone time and people in various timezones, it wouldn't cost much at all.

3. I don't want my privacy issues to be taken lightly.....I gave the timeshare permission to the information, not a few disgruntled timeshare owners, and would be very upset if every Tom, Dick, and Harry were allowed to request, receive, and review my personal information.

In the case of WorldMark, you gave the Club permission to release your name, address and telephone # per 7.1(a) of the bylaws. Besides, with public records available on the internet, most people could find your address and possibly phone # given just your name and city of residence.

4. I am realistic and know that there are some problems with ALL timeshares, and not everyone agrees with everything that takes place with the developers, management, etc. There are issues that I don't like, and if they bother me enough to where I can't live with them I will sell my timeshare and be done with it.

This has nothing to do with timeshare problems or any "disgruntled owners" , as you label them. All it has to do with is what the bylaws state and whether owners should be able to make contact with the other owners if a need arises.


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[Kal]

...Since the list, at least in the case of WorldMark, includes phone numbers, there's no reason why it would need to cost that much to contact a large percentage of owners on the list. With free night/weekend cellphone time and people in various timezones, it wouldn't cost much at all....

Yeah, cell phoning each member will save tons of postage costs. Assuming you spend no more than ONE MINUTE per person and you do it 8-hours a day (week days only) it will take you about TWO YEARS to get it done . After that you can get try to find your life again.

 

[Keitht]

Besides, with public records available on the internet, most people could find your address and possibly phone # given just your name and city of residence.

I find that hard to believe. You could probably identify those with unusual names in that way, but I am aware of at least 2 other people living within a few hundred yards of my house with the same forename and surname as me. That won't be particularly unusual for anybody with a comparatively common name. (No the surname isn't Smith or Jones).

I appreciate that these comments are diverging from the OP, but when such spurious answers and arguments are put forward they need to be challenged.

 

[roadsister]

Rich,

I don't have the original bylaws from 12 years ago for my particular timeshare so not sure what was in them. If someone can find me from calling a phone number that far back (have had 3 phone numbers since then) I take my hat off to them. I do have my timeshare bylaws published last year - perhaps that is something that any timeshare board needs to take a look at for updating or change to protect owners personal information. AS Kal points out it would take 2 years as a fulltime job talking less than one minute to accomplish what you are saying. No one in their right mind would do that or give up their life to do that. The bylaws of my timeshare do not stipulate or demand that owner email addresses be given out.
We are back to the fact any ordinary member could not use this information as it would be impossible for mass communications to all the timeshare members so it would be pointless to demand it is the point.

"This has nothing to do with timeshare problems or any "disgruntled owners".
This has everything to do with the quote above. I think that's why the part of the bylaw reading from my timeshare documents reads: to use or allow use of Membership information for commercial or other purposes not reasonably related IS part of the bylaw.

Since you brought it up....What was the reason given to both those owners you mentioned for the timeshare management refusing to give them the information?

I do agree with Keith - once the info is out there to other owners you have no control over what they use it for....be it information about their club, trying to sell them other timehsares, contacts for a new business startup, personal business database, stalking, etc.

I also wanted to note that I do hear what you're saying Rich.

 

[RichM]

I do not have firsthand information on the reason for rejecting the list. I believe various state codes allowing for the holder of the list to provide a "reasonable alternative" method of contact (i.e. mail out information on their behalf and probably at their expense) were mentioned, but this would not be an option if the owner wished to contact other owners by phone, regardless of the logistics.

As for e-mail addresses, you are correct, WorldMark (which you are referring to as "my timeshare" for some reason even though it's listed in your profile ) does not stipulate e-mail addresses to be available as part of the owners register. I don't believe I ever suggested differently.

And, of course, any usage of the list would need to be for a reason related to ownership that is non-commercial in nature. Certainly BOD candidates wishing to contact potential voters independent of the meager means currently available via the WorldMark election "process" would have good cause to make contact with owners as would anyone wishing to provide their own opinions on proposed amendments to the bylaws up for a vote or any other club-related business. Currently there is no viable way to discuss club issues with other owners except for the developer-sponsored forum, where you'd likely be censored, or other public forums like TUG and wmowners.com which can only garner membership via word of mouth.

As for the internet search viability - go try for yourself and lookup a few friends in various regions. Try www.zabasearch.com as a good starting point although there are many others out there. Faye - do you still live on a street named Mockorange? That's the information zaba gives when searching your name - I have no way to know if it's correct or not. They haven't "caught up" with my move from Jan. 2005 yet but have several previous addresses on file for me - some correct, some slightly off - most with correct phone #'s.

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[pedro47]

As a owner to a fixed week at the Marriott Manor House in Williamsburg, VA.
Does any agree that I have the right to sell the owner's roster to a company selling timeshare or to any bank? No! What happen to everyone privacy.

 

[RichM]

In the context of WorldMark's bylaws I would say you don't have that right as that would be a commercial use of an owners' list. You'd have to see what Marriott's bylaws state (and/or state laws) considering membership lists.

Since many HOA's, specifically WorldMark The Club, are not-for-profit corporations, there are also state laws which provide for and restrict the dissemination of and usage of such information.

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[rickandcindy23]

What if you are an unhappy owner because the board is doing something crazy?

What if the rest of the owners were upset that the board decided to put in a swimming pool, clubhouse and restaurant and sent you a bill for your portion? How would they contact one another to band together, if there is no access to names, phone numbers and addresses?

We automatically send in our proxies to board members who can do with our votes what they wish, so what if a majority of the board had an agenda to turn your ordinary, older resort into a GC or 5 Star? In order to accomplish this, they send a letter stating their intentions of adding pool, clubhouse restaurant, whatever, with a $1,500 assessment. You are angry, but you have no idea how to contact other owners to band together against this crazy board. When you ask for a list, the board denies your ability to acquire it. The management company holds that it is a privacy issue and that no owner is entitled to a list, and it is not in the by-laws that you can get it, (bylaws which can be changed by the board, by the way).

Could the above situation happen? Absolutely. A strong personality on a HOA's board could talk others into a plan such as this one. Is it likely? Probably rare, but why do the board members get to make decisions for us when we would rather have a person that has OUR BEST INTERESTS at heart, not the board's. An owner should be able to ask for proxies and overrule the board. That is just my opinion.

This is not happening, by the way, but I am a newly-elected member on an HOA board, and an owner asked for a membership list and is being denied access by the board and by the management company. If this owner has a problem with the way things are going, he should be able to contact other owners.

All of our names and phone numbers are listed in the phone book, unless we choose to be unpublished. County records are open to anyone, so I can find out what most people paid for their houses, where there mortage is, what percentage they paid and how much they owed during their last refinance, all via public records. What would a timeshare owner really be afraid of?

 

[roadsister]

I do not have firsthand information on the reason for rejecting the list. I believe various state codes allowing for the holder of the list to provide a "reasonable alternative" method of contact.
In a previous post you mentioned: ..."two owners who have been refused such a list when they requested it - privacy reasons"...I know you are friends with the owners you were referring to - perhaps you could relay that you are discussing them here and ask for the complete information to post so we can comment on facts instead of guessing about what was said and not said.
But, it IS a way to contact owners so they weren't being refused totally in that respect, sounds like they didn't want to make contact the way WM was willing to give them. I also am wondering if each state has laws that supercede timeshare bylaws that deal with privacy - could that be part of the limited way WM was giving them for communication??

As for e-mail addresses, you are correct, WorldMark (which you are referring to as "my timeshare" for some reason even though it's listed in your profile ) does not stipulate e-mail addresses to be available as part of the owners register.
I refer to "my timeshare" as there are others besides WM. RickandCindy were posting regarding timeshares other than WM also.

And, of course, any usage of the list would need to be for a reason related to ownership that is non-commercial in nature.
To control this would be impossible.
Certainly BOD candidates wishing to contact potential voters independent of the meager means currently available via the WorldMark election "process" would have good cause to make contact with owners as would anyone wishing to provide their own opinions on proposed amendments to the bylaws up for a vote or any other club-related business. Currently there is no viable way to discuss club issues with other owners except for the developer-sponsored forum, where you'd likely be censored, or other public forums like TUG and wmowners.com which can only garner membership via word of mouth.

I would hate to see a potential board member say one thing to one member to get their vote and then say something else to another-everyone should hear what they have to say....no one running for the WM board was censored as we all witnessed on the WM ask the candidate forum and I was glad to see that...and owners had candidate email addresses to contact them if wishing to provide their own opinions so there was a viable way to communicate...just not the vision of communication some wanted. I personally would have liked to see a chat session established. I will say one thing...developer-sponsored or not...at least we had SOME way to communicate...how many other timeshare companies even have anything similar when elections occur. When you google Timeshares TUG comes up so they have other means besides word of mouth to connect with timeshare owners.

Keith was discussing the internet search, not me.

 

[RichM]

rickandcindy23 - you gave an entirely plausible and concrete example that absolutely supports why such a list should be made available.

As for the developer-sponsored "Ask the candidates" forum, it's non-realtime, moderated format made it a joke in my mind. It did, however, clearly show which candidates had a grasp of the club issues and which candidates were just regurgitating a sales pitch they once heard.

While it's an extreme longshot, I honestly hope Jim Pappas does win a seat on the WM board as I feel he is a level-headed, honest, moderate owner who truly understands the past, present and future issues.

Sorry to digress from the issue at hand, back to the topic.

As for the WM owners that have been denied the list, I'm sure they read here and will comment if they choose to. It's not my job to keep them apprised of threads on various forums. As for the state laws - most that I've read actually SUPPORT the owners' rights to a list. For example, take the California Corporations Code, specifically section 8330 under "Rights of Inspection" as it relates to non-profic mutual benefit corporations (WorldMark the Club is such a corporation):

8330. (a) Subject to Sections 8331 and 8332, and unless the
corporation provides a reasonable alternative pursuant to subdivision
(c), a member may do either or both of the following as permitted by
subdivision (b):
(1) Inspect and copy the record of all the members' names,
addresses and voting rights, at reasonable times, upon five business
days' prior written demand upon the corporation which demand shall
state the purpose for which the inspection rights are requested; or
(2) Obtain from the secretary of the corporation, upon written
demand and tender of a reasonable charge, a list of the names,
addresses and voting rights of those members entitled to vote for the
election of directors, as of the most recent record date for which
it has been compiled or as of a date specified by the member
subsequent to the date of demand. The demand shall state the purpose
for which the list is requested. The membership list shall be made
available on or before the later of ten business days after the
demand is received or after the date specified therein as the date as
of which the list is to be compiled.

This is where I mentioned the concept of "reasonable alternatives" which is something that would probably need to be decided in a court if the requestor deemed the proposed alternative as unreasonable.


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[roadsister]

"While it's an extreme longshot, I honestly hope Jim Pappas does win a seat on the WM board as I feel he is a level-headed, honest, moderate owner who truly understands the past, present and future issues."

Well we have found something to agree on. I do think Jim would be an awesome board member - he seemed to be very level-headed who truly understands the club compared to some of the other candidates. I am afraid, like you, that it is a longshot....maybe appointed is what we need to hope for eh?

 

[roadsister]

"I am a newly-elected member on an HOA board, and an owner asked for a membership list and is being denied access by the board and by the management company."

Cindy,
Could you help us out here and elaborate as to why the owner was denied access by the board/management company? This may help with others who have had the same problem.

 

[roadsister]

"As for the internet search viability - go try for yourself and lookup a few friends in various regions. Try www.zabasearch.com as a good starting point although there are many others out there. Faye - do you still live on a street named Mockorange? That's the information zaba gives when searching your name - I have no way to know if it's correct or not.

Rich,
I think you have just proved my point about taking owner information from one source to use for a another reason and that it is impossible to control once someone has the list.
I did a search on zabasearch for roadsister and for Faye as my first name is the only information that is public on this forum and nothing turned up.