Club Wyndham blatantly stealing points from resale sellers and buyers

[HitchHiker71]

Well someone at Wyndham high enough up should want to fix things like this. For the integrity of the company. Or do they really not, as a corporation, care 2 shakes about being a decent company or their reputation?

It used to be that you could get an estoppel and it would show the points available for a contract. And if someone had credit pooled points, the buyer received them. The thing you've said that might explain why that can no longer happen is that things have changed, we no longer tie points to a contract, but rather to an account. That still doesn't excuse Wyndham from making transfers a worse $hit$how than they used to be. I still think they should be able to figure that out and transfer the appropriate amount of points to a new buyer. It really isn't right for them to keep deposited points... but okay...

The 1st thing to go, I think, was pooled (or now deposited points). OK, first area that Wyndham decided they would keep our points (points owned and maintenance paid for and really should transfer to a buyer). But OK, Wyndham made a rule that only current year points would transfer (no point deposited points would transfer). As long as the policy was stated as such, so be it. We'd all know not to promise those points if we sold a contract.

Next we heard all points on a contract (for the current use year) needed to be available to transfer to a new owner. And if we didn't have enough in our account, we (the seller) would pay $12/1000 to replace any we used so that the full amount of points on a contract would be available to transfer to the new owner. Ouch, but, okay.... a policy and if we knew that was how it would be handled, we can deal with that.

Then this latest BS started happening - about contracts transferred the last 1/2 of the year would get no points. Really not making any sense, IMO. Who is making these kinds of decisions / putting these practices in place?

When I sold a contract, I got everything taken care of before the end of the year. Everything except the request to Wyndham. I worked with LT Transfers - who are amazing and will no longer handle Wyndham transfers because Wyndham got so ridiculously hard to work with. Luckily I did what I did with LT - everything was done, deed recorded, etc, and they submitted the paperwork to Wyndham the 1st week of January. My contract transferred in 4-8 weeks (I don't remember exactly now). Comically -- the full amount of points were deducted out of my account - but not all points were given to the buyer. Wyndham told the buyer I had used some of the points. Thankfully, the new owner contacted me and I gave the new owner screens shots of the full points exiting my account and they dealt with Wyndham and got all the points they were entitled to. But seriously - how did that happen? And way to make me look bad to a buyer. Short them and blame me?

Why doesn't Wyndham care enough to get this right. Does the management/high-level officers just not care at all? I like the idea floated to buy stock and complain on that side. Maybe making shareholders aware of their shady business practices could make a difference. Because... bottom line... they are shady.

I'm willing to take a crack at getting an official response from my contacts for this item - however I wouldn't get my hopes up at the same time. Is it no longer possible to get an estoppel letter? I've not had to do this in years now so am not sure either way? In any case, we'd need to boil this all down to 3-10 bullet points if we can - perhaps using a timeline format - along this line:

Resale contract transaction experience:

• Past experience: All points on a contract were transferred to the buyer and were expected to be available for the buyer upon transfer. If the seller did not have sufficient points for transfer to the buyer, the seller would pay $12/1000 (points rental cost) to replace any seller used points so the the full amount of points on a contract was available for transfer to the buyer.
• New experience: All points on a contract transferred between 1/1-6/30 will transfer to the buyer. All points on a contract transferred betwen 7/1-12/31 are not available to the buyer, nor the seller.
• This gap seems unfair to both the seller and the buyer - as the points are simply lost to both during any resale transaction in the second half of any calendar year, especially considering the buyer must pay the MFs once the contract transfers, without corresponding ability to use the points for that period of time.
• The current approach does not deliver a good customer experience for either the buyer or the seller. This is especially the case for the buyer, who is left paying for a service they cannot use for months on end on average. First impressions are everything, and this approach delivers a bad first impression for resale buyers.

If the bullet points above don't accurately explain the past and current circumstance, or there are missing points that need to be made - please adjust. Don't go down any legal path in this summary - the second you do that - everything stops for what should be obvious reasons.

 

[paxsarah]

Oh, no! So sorry! (It's just me not having my ducks in anything resembling a row for the entirety of 2023!) Do you (or anyone else) have a recommendation for a company besides LT? (ie, did you like the eBay seller's trfr company?)

I'm still in process on that one, though I'll say most eBay purchases I've made in the past few years have gone pretty smoothly. Somewhere in the forum there were a couple of suggestions on companies instead of LT - I would bet a search on LT transfers will bring them up.

 

[bnoble]

If the seller did not have sufficient points for transfer to the buyer, the seller would pay $12/1000 (points rental cost) to replace any seller used points

I am not sure this is true, but I do not know that it is not.

 

[dioxide45]

Back in June when we started our purchase of CWA points, the seller reached out to Wyndham and obtained a "Vacation Ownership Interest Details" document. I noticed that this document included balances for all the points in their account but it did also specify the details related to the specific contract. I modified the actual numbers here a little, but this kinda shows what it looked like for a CWA contract. Perhaps deeded interests are different;

Your Ownership Information:
Your vacation ownership interest consists of 250,000 points in CLUB WYNDHAM Access. This is a Annual ownership interest and is allocated 250,000 points for use in Each year(s). The use year for this contract currently ends on 12/31; if your buyer is an existing ClubWyndham Plus owner the use year on this account will be adjusted to the use year on their existing membership.

Available Membership Points:
As of the date of this letter, your membership has 0 Club Wyndham Plus points available for the current use year. Additionally, you currently have 340,000 points for use in 2024 and 340,000 points available for use in 2025.

 

[chapjim]

I am not sure this is true, but I do not know that it is not.

What would be the alternative? Void the sale?

 

[bnoble]

I recall at least a few instances in which a seller had a negative point balance, but that never needed to be resolved via rental. Points were just manufactured as part of the sale. This is the opposite of what is happening now, in which points are destroyed as part of a sale.

I could be mis-remembering this, too.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I'm still in process on that one, though I'll say most eBay purchases I've made in the past few years have gone pretty smoothly. Somewhere in the forum there were a couple of suggestions on companies instead of LT - I would bet a search on LT transfers will bring them up.

Resort Closings out of Bozeman Montana. More expensive than LT, but quality service. They were the company that was used for my first Wyndham contract.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Back in June when we started our purchase of CWA points, the seller reached out to Wyndham and obtained a "Vacation Ownership Interest Details" document. I noticed that this document included balances for all the points in their account but it did also specify the details related to the specific contract. I modified the actual numbers here a little, but this kinda shows what it looked like for a CWA contract. Perhaps deeded interests are different;

Your Ownership Information:
Your vacation ownership interest consists of 250,000 points in CLUB WYNDHAM Access. This is a Annual ownership interest and is allocated 250,000 points for use in Each year(s). The use year for this contract currently ends on 12/31; if your buyer is an existing ClubWyndham Plus owner the use year on this account will be adjusted to the use year on their existing membership.

Available Membership Points:
As of the date of this letter, your membership has 0 Club Wyndham Plus points available for the current use year. Additionally, you currently have 340,000 points for use in 2024 and 340,000 points available for use in 2025.

250,000 a year, but they get 340,000 points in 2024 and 340,000 in 2025? Did they bank? Are you getting the banked points?

 

[amycurl]

I like your summary @HitchHiker71--so very diplomatic. But I would elaborate on the 3rd point, perhaps making the statement that "This gap in points availablility would appear to allow Wyndham to monetize the points at the expense of the new owner." You're not saying they *are* monetizing the points (i.e. stealing); you are pointing out what the *appearance* that gap produces, which is good feedback for them. Just in case they thought no one was paying attention.

 

[amycurl]

If this policy is to discourage resale entirely, it's a pretty terrible way to do it. Another point, which may or may not be worth making, is that the policy encourages sellers to wait until Jan. 1 to close, thereby artificially front-loading a year's worth of transfer into the first six months of the year. I can only imagine that will slow down a reportedly already long transfer timeline on Wyndham's end.

And I'm not a potential buyer or seller here; just your regular run-of-the-mill timeshare nerd.

 

[dioxide45]

250,000 a year, but they get 340,000 points in 2024 and 340,000 in 2025? Did they bank? Are you getting the banked points?

They owned other contracts. I beleive the difference in points was for their other contract.

 

[dioxide45]

If this policy is to discourage resale entirely, it's a pretty terrible way to do it. Another point, which may or may not be worth making, is that the policy encourages sellers to wait until Jan. 1 to close, thereby artificially front-loading a year's worth of transfer into the first six months of the year. I can only imagine that will slow down a reportedly already long transfer timeline on Wyndham's end.

And I'm not a potential buyer or seller here; just your regular run-of-the-mill timeshare nerd.

I think sellers are just going to have to no longer offer "free usage" with current use year points. They can't promise something they don't know for sure will be transferred to the new owner.

 

[CO skier]

If WYN doesn’t transfer Jan UY points on July-Dec trfrs, should I hold out till Jan to sell? To give buyer the BEST chance of keeping my unused points?

The BEST time to conclude a sale would be in August for a January Use Year. About 5 months to close the sale; the buyer gets all the points in January, and you do not pay for any points the seller will be using (or maybe just January's maintenance fee payment).

 

[jvball21]

I'm not sure if this is true. It may sometimes be the case with true owner-to-owner purchases/transfers, like the one that prompted this thread (except it wasn't in this case). But I would guess it's almost never true with eBay contracts, the vast majority of which are handled by third-party resellers - because it's my theory that any owner desperate enough to use (and presumably pay) one of those resellers is probably not savvy enough to use current year points before selling. Not to mention the fact that a contract that finally transfers in July was probably put up for sale in the first quarter of the year. And I really don't know what proportion of resale transfers are of the eBay reseller variety versus the personal one-to-one type.

The policy may be incompetence instead of malice on Wyndham's part, but it doesn't change the fact that their unwritten policy requires owners to pay a year's worth of maintenance fees in some cases for points that neither owner (old or new) has the opportunity to use, or wouldn't without a huge amount of pushback from the purchaser, and Wyndham not only doesn't seem to care but seems to be intentionally trying to thwart those appeals. I know I had to push back and make multiple calls to owner care to get the points on a contract that transferred before the start of a use year (2021 into '22). If I hadn't followed up over and over, I never would have gotten those points. Why is it my job? One of the reps I spoke to suggested that's just what happens when you purchase from some random third party - never mind that until a week earlier that "random third party" was one of their owners, just like me. And who had records about whether any of that owner's future-year points had been used or not? Wyndham. But it took 3 or 4 people before they agreed to do a points audit to verify that.

I totally agree with your assessment here. I went thru the same thing earlier this year. I bought an eBay contract in April and it finally closed in August. At first they didn't want to give me the 2023 UY points. I had to jump thru hoops to get that decision turned in my favor. I certainly don't agree that it should be up to us (buyer) to prove the points have not been used. Wyndham is a multi-billion dollar company and should have the resources available to audit an account easily (incompetance/malice? I say greed is what's going on here). If they say you're not going to get the UY points even though the seller paid the MF for the UY year up to the point of sale. Then they for damn sure have to give you the UY points or give you written notice for why that won't happen. Of course they won't do that knowing they will be admitting to fraud. Unfortunately as I did, you will have to be persistent and continue pushing them for the points. I was able to provide the ESTOPPEL they wrote saying the points were still on the contract. In addition I received a letter from the seller saying they did not use the UY points. In fact they hadn't used any points in the last 4 years on that contract.

 

[jules54]

Resort Closings out of Bozeman Montana. More expensive than LT, but quality service. They were the company that was used for my first Wyndham contract.

I could be wrong, but I think the closing company in Bozeman only does closing for resorts sold by the parent resale company. Which sells a lot on Ebay. I‘ve worked with them several times and that has always been my understanding. Their closing company is ok, but not as good as LT transfers.

I spoke to LT transfers yesterday about transferring contracts from another resort group I own. We also discussed Wyndham transfers. I was told they will still do Wyndham transfers as long as the parties understand the lengthy timeframe that may be involved.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I could be wrong, but I think the closing company in Bozeman only does closing for resorts sold by the parent resale company. Which sells a lot on Ebay. I‘ve worked with them several times and that has always been my understanding. Their closing company is ok, but not as good as LT transfers.

I spoke to LT transfers yesterday about transferring contracts from another resort group I own. We also discussed Wyndham transfers. I was told they will still do Wyndham transfers as long as the parties understand the lengthy timeframe that may be involved.

I also could be wrong but I seem to remember someone contacting Resort Closings and reporting back ont his board that they were quoted a price for the transfer (which was a bit higher than LT but not outrageous).

 

[lotus921v]

I could be wrong, but I think the closing company in Bozeman only does closing for resorts sold by the parent resale company. Which sells a lot on Ebay. I‘ve worked with them several times and that has always been my understanding. Their closing company is ok, but not as good as LT transfers.

I spoke to LT transfers yesterday about transferring contracts from another resort group I own. We also discussed Wyndham transfers. I was told they will still do Wyndham transfers as long as the parties understand the lengthy timeframe that may be involved.

Nope. They’ll process it even if you didn’t buy from them. I’ve had them handle several for me

 

[jules54]

Thanks for the info good to know. How was their service?

 

[lotus921v]

Thanks for the info good to know. How was their service?

Fabulous. I actually prefer to use them because they’re super fast

 

[Lsfinn]

For those of you who are dealing with Wyndham stealing points from you (and yes, it's stealing), you should absolutely elevate this to Michael Brown. You should make all the points that have been made above:

• Taking points from the seller without awarding them to the buyer is theft, because someone not Wyndham paid for those points.
• The policy should be to award "all available points" no matter when the transfer completes. The time of year is irrelevant to who owns the points. Wyndham doesn't own them, so Wyndham shouldn't take them.
• Wyndham should issue its policy in writing to its owners.
• Wyndham should train its employees across all departments to fairly and consistently apply the policy.
• If your individual situation is not successfully resolved and the Wyndham's policy is not changed so as to avoid stealing, the appropriate legal authorities will be contacted.

michael.brown@wyn.com

In addition to reports to the AG, you might consider bringing a case in small claims court, given the relatively small dollar amount and simple facts and law. Check the procedures in your county to see if filing there would work. If you are able to file such a suit (which you do on your own, without a lawyer), it's instant leverage. You are much more likely to get the company's attention and negotiate for a successful outcome. Chances are good you wouldn't even get to court because Wyndham wouldn't want to spend the resources to appear. That alone would be more expensive to them than the amount of money you'd be seeking.

Regarding writing to Michel Brown: been there, done that. CEO Michael Brown’s office does not respond no matter how straight-forward and polite the email is.

Similarly small claims is not helpful. While I’m not a lawyer there are rules about where you need to be to file a small claims suit against another. Assuming the other party lives or does business in your state, rules typically require that you sue in the small claims court district closest to that person's residence or headquarters. In some instances, you also might be able to sue in the location (court district) where a contract was signed, or a personal injury occurred (such as an auto accident). If - as is typically the case with Wyndham (or T&L, as they now prefer to be known) - a defendant has no contact with your state, you'll generally have to sue in the state where the defendant lives or does business. That would be Florida. So, unless you live in FL and close to Wyndham HQ, you are not going to get any satisfaction out of trying to file with small claims.

 

[TravelJoy]

I'm willing to take a crack at getting an official response from my contacts for this item - however I wouldn't get my hopes up at the same time. Is it no longer possible to get an estoppel letter? I've not had to do this in years now so am not sure either way? In any case, we'd need to boil this all down to 3-10 bullet points if we can - perhaps using a timeline format - along this line:

Resale contract transaction experience:

• Past experience: All points on a contract were transferred to the buyer and were expected to be available for the buyer upon transfer. If the seller did not have sufficient points for transfer to the buyer, the seller would pay $12/1000 (points rental cost) to replace any seller used points so the the full amount of points on a contract was available for transfer to the buyer.
• New experience: All points on a contract transferred between 1/1-6/30 will transfer to the buyer. All points on a contract transferred betwen 7/1-12/31 are not available to the buyer, nor the seller.
• This gap seems unfair to both the seller and the buyer - as the points are simply lost to both during any resale transaction in the second half of any calendar year, especially considering the buyer must pay the MFs once the contract transfers, without corresponding ability to use the points for that period of time.
• The current approach does not deliver a good customer experience for either the buyer or the seller. This is especially the case for the buyer, who is left paying for a service they cannot use for months on end on average. First impressions are everything, and this approach delivers a bad first impression for resale buyers.

If the bullet points above don't accurately explain the past and current circumstance, or there are missing points that need to be made - please adjust. Don't go down any legal path in this summary - the second you do that - everything stops for what should be obvious reasons.

Any update so far?

 

[DTKENT1]

250,000 a year, but they get 340,000 points in 2024 and 340,000 in 2025? Did they bank? Are you getting the banked points?

The BEST time to conclude a sale would be in August for a January Use Year. About 5 months to close the sale; the buyer gets all the points in January, and you do not pay for any points the seller will be using (or maybe just January's maintenance fee payment).

Just closed 2 sales from August. No points in my account for this year but they are all applied for Jan 1st! This is the exact reason I bought in August. Last contract I had to fight for months to get the points but once they finally agreed they atleast gave me an option of what use year yo deposit them. Was crazzy but atleast I got them. Sad way to do bussiness.

 

[CO skier]

Just closed 2 sales from August. No points in my account for this year but they are all applied for Jan 1st! This is the exact reason I bought in August. Last contract I had to fight for months to get the points but once they finally agreed they atleast gave me an option of what use year yo deposit them. Was crazzy but atleast I got them. Sad way to do bussiness.

Sounds like perfect timing on your part for those 2 August purchases.