Club Wyndham blatantly stealing points from resale sellers and buyers

[rickandcindy23]

The timing is important. Who wants to pay months of maintenance fees for points the seller used? For January Use Year contracts with no points available, the purchase timing would be July to December, if all the points are available for the following Use Year.

Those who bought the contracts didn't care and it was disclosed in the ad that there were no points for the future use year. For a few of you to continually complain about the one TUGger who has gotten the blame, it's gotten old. That happened years ago.

 

[CO skier]

Through their somewhat silent partners Wyndham was a major buyer of large lots of those stripped contracts from Ron and the others in his group. When Wyndham resold them, they were sold with full points.

If the contracts are accounted on a Last In, Last Out basis, all the maintenance fees for the stripped points would have been paid by Wyndham before the contracts were recycled, years later due to the hundreds of millions of points owned by Wyndham and the relatively few stripped contracts purchased before the jig was up.

 

[CO skier]

Those who bought the contracts didn't care and it was disclosed in the ad that there were no points for the future use year. For a few of you to continually complain about the one TUGger who has gotten the blame, it's gotten old. That happened years ago.

My post is about purchase timing now, today.

 

[CO skier]

That happened years ago.

Others are trying to exhume the off-topic discussion about stripped Wyndham accounts.

I completely agree with bnoble.

Something that required using the old Credit Pool (which no longer exists and so doesn't matter.)

 

[lotus921v]

I've had a deed in my name since last December, it should have full points in it since it was verified to me that they were unused but they're still trying to withhold them from me. I'd like to burn them before the end of the year so Wyndham doesn't earn a year of maintenance fees for free. it's absolutely ridiculous to me. I got an email update from owner resolutions today that they're working it still to see if they can circumvent this second half of a year policy due to the length of time it took for the contract to transfer. regardless of when it transfers, as far as I'm concerned, it's still theft if they don't grant them to the new owner

 

[rickandcindy23]

I've had a deed in my name since last December, it should have full points in it since it was verified to me that they were unused but they're still trying to withhold them from me. I'd like to burn them before the end of the year so Wyndham doesn't earn a year of maintenance fees for free. it's absolutely ridiculous to me. I got an email update from owner resolutions today that they're working it still to see if they can circumvent this second half of a year policy due to the length of time it took for the contract to transfer. regardless of when it transfers, as far as I'm concerned, it's still theft if they don't grant them to the new owner

How can a company be allowed to just steal points that have had fees paid all year? It's so wrong. A big company stealing!!! I am so angry. Fighting Wyndham is like fighting city hall. The people who work there are clueless on these issues. They just give answers to the dilemma that are nonsense.

I didn't know that contracts received new contract numbers after they transferred.

 

[bnoble]

Part of the problem is that Wyndham just isn't set up to deal with owner-to-owner sales in the secondary market, and they've never bothered to make much of an effort to clean it up because it's not their primary business. You can see this because it has been handled differently even during the current iteration of the program rules and system implementation.

For a while, they were transferring the full annual allotment of points, whether the seller had those points or not, and no matter how late in the Use Year it was. If the seller did not have the points, but did have reservations remaining in that UY, some of those reservations were cancelled without the owner's involvement to free up the necessary points for transfer. If neither of those were true, the owner would have a negative point balance in the current UY, but that went away silently when the UY ended.

Naturally, lots of people were upset about this and complained bitterly that that's not what they wanted to happen. In response, it appears that Wyndham changed how they handle this to transfer the full year's points in the first half, but none in the second half, because chances are the selling owner used them for something--especially if it is late in the year. I suppose some people would think that's better, others worse.

However, the thing that we'd arguably want to have happen--that they transfer however many points "are left"---is something they probably can't do under the current program rules and system implementation, because points are no longer tracked per-contract as we use them during the year. For example, we no longer have to specify a particular contract when making a reservation. That change was a good one for most owners, because it removed a source of complexity in making reservations (e.g. we'd want to preserve "ARP-useful" points but had to remember to do it.) To actually transfer the points that "are left" would require a human to investigate what's been going on in an account, without even having all the data they'd need to do it right, which would only lengthen the already-long transfer process and still tick people off because it would sometimes be wrong.

So, I don't think they are "stealing" them in the sense that they are taking them and using them for their own purposes. I think instead that when Cindy sold that contract, the points that did not transfer simply ceased to exist. This is another instance of a rule I try to remember whenever I am dealing with Wyndham:

Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

 

[paxsarah]

In response, it appears that Wyndham changed how they handle this to transfer the full year's points in the first half, but none in the second half, because chances are the selling owner used them for something--especially if it is late in the year.

I'm not sure if this is true. It may sometimes be the case with true owner-to-owner purchases/transfers, like the one that prompted this thread (except it wasn't in this case). But I would guess it's almost never true with eBay contracts, the vast majority of which are handled by third-party resellers - because it's my theory that any owner desperate enough to use (and presumably pay) one of those resellers is probably not savvy enough to use current year points before selling. Not to mention the fact that a contract that finally transfers in July was probably put up for sale in the first quarter of the year. And I really don't know what proportion of resale transfers are of the eBay reseller variety versus the personal one-to-one type.

The policy may be incompetence instead of malice on Wyndham's part, but it doesn't change the fact that their unwritten policy requires owners to pay a year's worth of maintenance fees in some cases for points that neither owner (old or new) has the opportunity to use, or wouldn't without a huge amount of pushback from the purchaser, and Wyndham not only doesn't seem to care but seems to be intentionally trying to thwart those appeals. I know I had to push back and make multiple calls to owner care to get the points on a contract that transferred before the start of a use year (2021 into '22). If I hadn't followed up over and over, I never would have gotten those points. Why is it my job? One of the reps I spoke to suggested that's just what happens when you purchase from some random third party - never mind that until a week earlier that "random third party" was one of their owners, just like me. And who had records about whether any of that owner's future-year points had been used or not? Wyndham. But it took 3 or 4 people before they agreed to do a points audit to verify that.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I have asked the people who are taking the contracts to request an audit to make sure they get the points. I haven't used a single resale point this year.

Wyndham was charging $299, now it's $399 for this "service," which is done slowly and incompetently.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

I don’t own Wyndham and I am just reading this thread out of curiosity. However, I have thought about a Wyndham purchase in the past. Frankly, after reading about account suspensions and what now appears to be blatant point stealing I have put Wyndham on my do not buy list right next to Westgate.

Read the Capital Vacation Club Forum & you can make it a trifecta

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I don't appreciate the lie that we used our points and nothing left for the new owner. That is downright stealing, and if they continue with this, I will be forced to write yet another letter to the FL AG.

Please do! This only gets fixed if the people who are being victimized by them make a stink.

 

[dioxide45]

Part of the problem is that Wyndham just isn't set up to deal with owner-to-owner sales in the secondary market, and they've never bothered to make much of an effort to clean it up because it's not their primary business. You can see this because it has been handled differently even during the current iteration of the program rules and system implementation.

For a while, they were transferring the full annual allotment of points, whether the seller had those points or not, and no matter how late in the Use Year it was. If the seller did not have the points, but did have reservations remaining in that UY, some of those reservations were cancelled without the owner's involvement to free up the necessary points for transfer. If neither of those were true, the owner would have a negative point balance in the current UY, but that went away silently when the UY ended.

Naturally, lots of people were upset about this and complained bitterly that that's not what they wanted to happen. In response, it appears that Wyndham changed how they handle this to transfer the full year's points in the first half, but none in the second half, because chances are the selling owner used them for something--especially if it is late in the year. I suppose some people would think that's better, others worse.

However, the thing that we'd arguably want to have happen--that they transfer however many points "are left"---is something they probably can't do under the current program rules and system implementation, because points are no longer tracked per-contract as we use them during the year. For example, we no longer have to specify a particular contract when making a reservation. That change was a good one for most owners, because it removed a source of complexity in making reservations (e.g. we'd want to preserve "ARP-useful" points but had to remember to do it.) To actually transfer the points that "are left" would require a human to investigate what's been going on in an account, without even having all the data they'd need to do it right, which would only lengthen the already-long transfer process and still tick people off because it would sometimes be wrong.

So, I don't think they are "stealing" them in the sense that they are taking them and using them for their own purposes. I think instead that when Cindy sold that contract, the points that did not transfer simply ceased to exist. This is another instance of a rule I try to remember whenever I am dealing with Wyndham:

Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

Even if the points just cease to exist, there is still unreserved inventory that I am sure Wyndham gets access to use and sell at some point.. So to an extent, they are still stealing the points.

 

[adamrivers]

Please do! This only gets fixed if the people who are being victimized by them make a stink.

I'll be honest, I am ready to just tell Wyndham I want nothing to do with their BS and take the contracts/deeds back from me and say screw it. I have spent over 8-9 hours that I don't have (with a 4 month old child) dealing with this and gotten nowhere, and given nothing but a constant runaround. Whether it's incompetence, malice, or a little of both, I don't know that I want to deal with a company that pulls this nonsense - especially on new customers. I acquired 850k+ points. There is no chance I'll use them before the end of the year anyway. Just crazy to treat a NEW paying customer this way.

 

[CO skier]

even if the points just cease to exist, there is still unreserved inventory that I am sure Wyndham gets access to use and sell at some point.

60 days in advance; i.e., the leftovers.

Wyndham Discovery Package purchasers have a higher priority.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I'll be honest, I am ready to just tell Wyndham I want nothing to do with their BS and take the contracts/deeds back from me and say screw it. I have spent over 8-9 hours that I don't have (with a 4 month old child) dealing with this and gotten nowhere, and given nothing but a constant runaround. Whether it's incompetence, malice, or a little of both, I don't know that I want to deal with a company that pulls this nonsense - especially on new customers. I acquired 850k+ points. There is no chance I'll use them before the end of the year anyway. Just crazy to treat a NEW paying customer this way.

You can always deposit into RCI. That will extend the points. I really want you to be able to use the points.

Congratulations on the baby. Very exciting.

 

[CO skier]

I don’t own Wyndham and I am just reading this thread out of curiosity. However, I have thought about a Wyndham purchase in the past. Frankly, after reading about account suspensions and what now appears to be blatant point stealing I have put Wyndham on my do not buy list right next to Westgate.

Do not take the TUG Club Wyndham Negative Nellies too seriously, and pass up opportunity when it knocks (presuming you are buying for your own personal use and not as a rental business).

Take this Club Wyndham 538,000 points eBay auction for example (<$200 all-in buy, versus >$100,00 retail purchase):

538,000 Annual Wyndham Club Access Points Timeshare January Renewal | eBay

Use these points through the Wyndham System. Wyndham Club Access. 538,000 Annual Wyndham Points. Wyndham has the Right of First Refusal on this account. Club Wyndham Flagstaff. Club Wyndham Sedona.

www.ebay.com

The new owner will "likely" get the January 2024 Use Year points with about 10 months to use them in 2024 at ANY Club Wyndham resort. From what I have read, Westgate resales are severely restricted as to what can be reserved.

If the new owner of this Wyndham contract uses the points for their personal vacations, how is it any different from current owners or a developer-purchased owner of Club Wyndham Access using points for their personal vacations? (other than a few developer perks for those who would purchase 538,000 points for more than $100,000)

 

[Sandi Bo]

Part of the problem is that Wyndham just isn't set up to deal with owner-to-owner sales in the secondary market, and they've never bothered to make much of an effort to clean it up because it's not their primary business. You can see this because it has been handled differently even during the current iteration of the program rules and system implementation.

For a while, they were transferring the full annual allotment of points, whether the seller had those points or not, and no matter how late in the Use Year it was. If the seller did not have the points, but did have reservations remaining in that UY, some of those reservations were cancelled without the owner's involvement to free up the necessary points for transfer. If neither of those were true, the owner would have a negative point balance in the current UY, but that went away silently when the UY ended.

Naturally, lots of people were upset about this and complained bitterly that that's not what they wanted to happen. In response, it appears that Wyndham changed how they handle this to transfer the full year's points in the first half, but none in the second half, because chances are the selling owner used them for something--especially if it is late in the year. I suppose some people would think that's better, others worse.

However, the thing that we'd arguably want to have happen--that they transfer however many points "are left"---is something they probably can't do under the current program rules and system implementation, because points are no longer tracked per-contract as we use them during the year. For example, we no longer have to specify a particular contract when making a reservation. That change was a good one for most owners, because it removed a source of complexity in making reservations (e.g. we'd want to preserve "ARP-useful" points but had to remember to do it.) To actually transfer the points that "are left" would require a human to investigate what's been going on in an account, without even having all the data they'd need to do it right, which would only lengthen the already-long transfer process and still tick people off because it would sometimes be wrong.

So, I don't think they are "stealing" them in the sense that they are taking them and using them for their own purposes. I think instead that when Cindy sold that contract, the points that did not transfer simply ceased to exist. This is another instance of a rule I try to remember whenever I am dealing with Wyndham:

Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

Well someone at Wyndham high enough up should want to fix things like this. For the integrity of the company. Or do they really not, as a corporation, care 2 shakes about being a decent company or their reputation?

It used to be that you could get an estoppel and it would show the points available for a contract. And if someone had credit pooled points, the buyer received them. The thing you've said that might explain why that can no longer happen is that things have changed, we no longer tie points to a contract, but rather to an account. That still doesn't excuse Wyndham from making transfers a worse $hit$how than they used to be. I still think they should be able to figure that out and transfer the appropriate amount of points to a new buyer. It really isn't right for them to keep deposited points... but okay...

The 1st thing to go, I think, was pooled (or now deposited points). OK, first area that Wyndham decided they would keep our points (points owned and maintenance paid for and really should transfer to a buyer). But OK, Wyndham made a rule that only current year points would transfer (no point deposited points would transfer). As long as the policy was stated as such, so be it. We'd all know not to promise those points if we sold a contract.

Next we heard all points on a contract (for the current use year) needed to be available to transfer to a new owner. And if we didn't have enough in our account, we (the seller) would pay $12/1000 to replace any we used so that the full amount of points on a contract would be available to transfer to the new owner. Ouch, but, okay.... a policy and if we knew that was how it would be handled, we can deal with that.

Then this latest BS started happening - about contracts transferred the last 1/2 of the year would get no points. Really not making any sense, IMO. Who is making these kinds of decisions / putting these practices in place?

When I sold a contract, I got everything taken care of before the end of the year. Everything except the request to Wyndham. I worked with LT Transfers - who are amazing and will no longer handle Wyndham transfers because Wyndham got so ridiculously hard to work with. Luckily I did what I did with LT - everything was done, deed recorded, etc, and they submitted the paperwork to Wyndham the 1st week of January. My contract transferred in 4-8 weeks (I don't remember exactly now). Comically -- the full amount of points were deducted out of my account - but not all points were given to the buyer. Wyndham told the buyer I had used some of the points. Thankfully, the new owner contacted me and I gave the new owner screens shots of the full points exiting my account and they dealt with Wyndham and got all the points they were entitled to. But seriously - how did that happen? And way to make me look bad to a buyer. Short them and blame me?

Why doesn't Wyndham care enough to get this right. Does the management/high-level officers just not care at all? I like the idea floated to buy stock and complain on that side. Maybe making shareholders aware of their shady business practices could make a difference. Because... bottom line... they are shady.

 

[altiste1]

For those of you who are dealing with Wyndham stealing points from you (and yes, it's stealing), you should absolutely elevate this to Michael Brown. You should make all the points that have been made above:

• Taking points from the seller without awarding them to the buyer is theft, because someone not Wyndham paid for those points.
• The policy should be to award "all available points" no matter when the transfer completes. The time of year is irrelevant to who owns the points. Wyndham doesn't own them, so Wyndham shouldn't take them.
• Wyndham should issue its policy in writing to its owners.
• Wyndham should train its employees across all departments to fairly and consistently apply the policy.
• If your individual situation is not successfully resolved and the Wyndham's policy is not changed so as to avoid stealing, the appropriate legal authorities will be contacted.

michael.brown@wyn.com

In addition to reports to the AG, you might consider bringing a case in small claims court, given the relatively small dollar amount and simple facts and law. Check the procedures in your county to see if filing there would work. If you are able to file such a suit (which you do on your own, without a lawyer), it's instant leverage. You are much more likely to get the company's attention and negotiate for a successful outcome. Chances are good you wouldn't even get to court because Wyndham wouldn't want to spend the resources to appear. That alone would be more expensive to them than the amount of money you'd be seeking.

 

[Sandi Bo]

For those of you who are dealing with Wyndham stealing points from you (and yes, it's stealing), you should absolutely elevate this to Michael Brown. You should make all the points that have been made above:

• Taking points from the seller without awarding them to the buyer is theft, because someone not Wyndham paid for those points.
• The policy should be to award "all available points" no matter when the transfer completes. The time of year is irrelevant to who owns the points. Wyndham doesn't own them, so Wyndham shouldn't take them.
• Wyndham should issue its policy in writing to its owners.
• Wyndham should train its employees across all departments to fairly and consistently apply the policy.
• If your individual situation is not successfully resolved and the Wyndham's policy is not changed so as to avoid stealing, the appropriate legal authorities will be contacted.

michael.brown@wyn.com

In addition to reports to the AG, you might consider bringing a case in small claims court, given the relatively small dollar amount and simple facts and law. Check the procedures in your county to see if filing there would work. If you are able to file such a suit (which you do on your own, without a lawyer), it's instant leverage. You are much more likely to get the company's attention and negotiate for a successful outcome. Chances are good you wouldn't even get to court because Wyndham wouldn't want to spend the resources to appear. That alone would be more expensive to them than the amount of money you'd be seeking.

Great summary / suggestions. I hate to add, but will... we haven't touched on the use year alignments they do (move your use year forward 1-3 quarters with no compensation / point adjustment - you just start getting them later (but still pay your monthly maintenance). These also typically happen when a contract transfers (but can happen anytime Wyndham decides to do it (if you have contracts with multiple use years).

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

• Taking points from the seller without awarding them to the buyer is theft, because someone not Wyndham paid for those points.
• The policy should be to award "all available points" no matter when the transfer completes. The time of year is irrelevant to who owns the points. Wyndham doesn't own them, so Wyndham shouldn't take them.
• Wyndham should issue its policy in writing to its owners.
• Wyndham should train its employees across all departments to fairly and consistently apply the policy.
• If your individual situation is not successfully resolved and the Wyndham's policy is not changed so as to avoid stealing, the appropriate legal authorities will be contacted.

michael.brown@wyn.com

In addition to reports to the AG, you might consider bringing a case in small claims court, given the relatively small dollar amount and simple facts and law. Check the procedures in your county to see if filing there would work. If you are able to file such a suit (which you do on your own, without a lawyer), it's instant leverage. You are much more likely to get the company's attention and negotiate for a successful outcome. Chances are good you wouldn't even get to court because Wyndham wouldn't want to spend the resources to appear. That alone would be more expensive to them than the amount of money you'd be seeking.

These are great suggestions but as a practical matter you’re not going to be able to sue Wyndham in small claims unless you bring it wherever the heck they are headquartered, and that’s probably not feasible for most. Depending on the state by state laws *maybe* you can bring suit where they have one of their timeshare hotels, but probably not.

 

[Mongoose]

I don’t own Wyndham and I am just reading this thread out of curiosity. However, I have thought about a Wyndham purchase in the past. Frankly, after reading about account suspensions and what now appears to be blatant point stealing I have put Wyndham on my do not buy list right next to Westgate.

I couldn't agree more. I flirt with them every six months or so and then read these threads. Its not worth the headaches.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I am going to be in Orlando next month, and Wyndham is headquartered in Orlando. It's a giant building labeled Travel and Leisure. michael.brown@travelandleisure.com is the email I used last for the incompetent big guy, who has people under him that just say things to appease owners and don't really do anything to help. The conversations I have with this nice lady at Wyndham are fine, but she gets nothing done. Sweet woman, very sympathetic, but nothing has changed.

1. We still have not received an answer as to why we cannot use certified exit. She says that Title has to talk to Legal, or some such thing.

2. No answers about these point transfers, points that so obviously were taken from our account and basically stolen.

3. Our accounts keep getting shut down during the transfers, which are happening for weeks at a time, and the accounts cannot be seen by anyone in owner relations. I had one lady tell me, "You only own in WorldMark and Shell." I have TWO Founder's accounts.

4. I still have to log in under our son's name because he had never registered in all of our years of owning, so it was the only want to get into the account myself. That has been ongoing for two years.

So I do not recommend Wyndham.

I don't even love RCI anymore, and it's not about Disney moving to II. I am just tired of the extra fees I get charged by the various resort systems when we exchange in. I would love to stay at all of the Hiltons more, I love Parc Soleil and Tuscany and SeaWorld, and I will stay at Kings'land and Bay Club on the Big Island, but I won't stay at our favorite Hilton Orlando resorts and pay the fees for "parking and concierge." $25 per day for basically nothing. Plus exchange fees of $289. Add in the insurance, and you are at $550 + trading power required to get that exchange. Does anyone else find this abhorrent? It's 165,000 Wyndham points for a 2 bedroom exchange into Orlando.

So far, Marriott/ Hyatt/ Westin/ Sheraton don't charge fees to II exchangers. I expect there to be fees at some point, but with exchange fees of my Marriott and Sheraton exchanges into the same, $164. That allows for a few extra fees, if I had to pay.

 

[altiste1]

These are great suggestions but as a practical matter you’re not going to be able to sue Wyndham in small claims unless you bring it wherever the heck they are headquartered, and that’s probably not feasible for most. Depending on the state by state laws *maybe* you can bring suit where they have one of their timeshare hotels, but probably not.

Yes, the question of jurisdiction here is tricky. Most likely Florida residents should have no problem. Otherwise, as I said, anyone interested in that path should check with the court where they would like to file as a first step (and they might answer that question). One could also ask a litigator what he/she thinks, based on the facts generally.

 

[dioxide45]

Does the agreement even allow for a jury or trial? Is there an arbitration clause?

 

[bnoble]

We still have not received an answer as to why we cannot use certified exit.

I think you and I both know that the reason is: "Given your history with us, we don't want to make your life easy."

Does the agreement even allow for a jury or trial? Is there an arbitration clause?

I just took a quick look at my most recent floating-week conversion contract. I do not see an arbitration/mediation clause in there. But, it could be in other governing documents.