Club Wyndham blatantly stealing points from resale sellers and buyers

[Sandi Bo]

I was under that understanding that if you sued someone in small claims court, the other party can take it to regular court. And any corporation with a team of lawyers, like Wyndham, would do that in a heartbeat. Easy for them to get it out of small claims court -- now you would need a lawyer to fight as a "regular" court case. Done and over for all intents and purposes. Would a company like Wyndham EVER have a case stay in small claims court?

Secondly, I would think long and hard before pursuing any action against Wyndham (I almost did and backed off - I was poised and ready to file against Wyndham with the Florida condominium association (the organization that has the most jurisdiction over Wyndham). They don't have a legal hold or ability to direct Wyndham to do anything. But Wyndham likes to keep them happy. So they'll work on your behalf and with Wyndham. Wyndham may do whatever it takes to make the condominium association happy. But I heard be ready for Wyndham to come at you after you've reached an amicable resolution. More than likely it won't end well for you in the long run. I opted not file, even though I think I had a very good case against them. I suspect (fear) that is what has happened to you Cindy. You filed with the AG and now have the ire of Wyndham coming at you full throttle. I just don't think people ever win with Wyndham (especially if you want to continue to be an owner). It is their sandbox, they make the rules.

Footnote: If you are thinking of filing with the Florida condominium association. They do not care about anyone but you. They don't want anything 2nd hand or what might be happening to multiple owners. Only what is happening to you specifically.

 

[Mongoose]

Does the agreement even allow for a jury or trial? Is there an arbitration clause?

Arbitration is mentioned 39 times in their T&C's.

16. CLASS ACTION WAIVER - THIS PARAGRAPH CONTAINS A CLASS ACTION WAIVER THAT WILL SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT YOUR RIGHTS IF A DISPUTE ARISES.


16.1. MEMBER AND CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL AGREE THAT ANY PROCEEDING TO RESOLVE OR LITIGATE ANY DISPUTE, WHETHER IN ARBITRATION, IN COURT, OR OTHERWISE, WILL BE CONDUCTED SOLELY ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, AND THAT NEITHER MEMBER NOR CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL WILL SEEK TO HAVE ANY DISPUTE HEARD AS A CLASS ACTION, A REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, A COLLECTIVE ACTION, OR IN ANY PROCEEDING IN WHICH MEMBER OR CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL ACTS OR PROPOSES TO ACT IN A REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY. MEMBER AND CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL FURTHER AGREE THAT NO ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WILL BE JOINED, CONSOLIDATED, OR COMBINED WITH ANOTHER ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WITHOUT THE PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT OF MEMBER, CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL, AND ALL PARTIES TO ANY SUCH ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING.

17. ARBITRATION AGREEMENT/DISPUTE RESOLUTION POLICY – THIS PARAGRAPH CONTAINS AN ARBITRATION PROVISION THAT WILL SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT YOUR RIGHTS IF A DISPUTE ARISES.


17.1. ARBITRATION PROVISION (“Provision”). Any dispute, controversy or claim (“Claim”), whether preexisting, present or future, arising from or relating arising from the sale, booking, processing or payment of any cruise and travel benefits or vacation club membership services, programs or products, including but not limited to alleged violations of civil rights, discrimination, consumer protection or privacy laws, or for any losses, damages or expenses, by and between or among You and Us and Our parents, subsidiaries, affiliates, successors, assigns, heirs, officers, directors, employees, agents, business partners, third-party providers, suppliers or vendors, shall, at the election of you or us, be arbitrated on an individual basis before the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) (www.adr.org, 1-800-778-7879) or Judicial Arbitration and Mediation Services, Inc. (“JAMS”) (www.jamsadr.com, 1-800-352-5267) pursuant to their applicable rules and fee schedules, or before any other provider of arbitration services (“other provider”) to which you and we mutually agree in writing (provided such other provider adheres to the terms of this Provision). A single neutral arbitrator with expertise in the subject matter of the Claim(s) shall be appointed. If the AAA and JAMS (or other provider) cannot serve, a court with jurisdiction will select the arbitrator. The Federal Arbitration Act, 9 U.S.C. § 1, et seq., governs the interpretation and enforcement of this Provision. Any hearing will be held in a location reasonably convenient to both you and us, such as the state and county in which this agreement was signed, unless otherwise agreed by the parties in writing or ordered by the arbitrator. IF A CLAIM IS ARBITRATED, THERE WILL BE NO RIGHT TO HAVE A COURT OR TRIAL OR TO PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS ACTION OR OTHER REPRESENTATIVE ACTION IN COURT OR IN ARBITRATION.

Terms and Conditions Policies

Club Wyndham Travel

clubwyndhamtravel.wyndhamdestinations.com

 

[altiste1]

Arbitration is mentioned 39 times in their T&C's.

16. CLASS ACTION WAIVER - THIS PARAGRAPH CONTAINS A CLASS ACTION WAIVER THAT WILL SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT YOUR RIGHTS IF A DISPUTE ARISES.


16.1. MEMBER AND CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL AGREE THAT ANY PROCEEDING TO RESOLVE OR LITIGATE ANY DISPUTE, WHETHER IN ARBITRATION, IN COURT, OR OTHERWISE, WILL BE CONDUCTED SOLELY ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, AND THAT NEITHER MEMBER NOR CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL WILL SEEK TO HAVE ANY DISPUTE HEARD AS A CLASS ACTION, A REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, A COLLECTIVE ACTION, OR IN ANY PROCEEDING IN WHICH MEMBER OR CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL ACTS OR PROPOSES TO ACT IN A REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY. MEMBER AND CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL FURTHER AGREE THAT NO ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WILL BE JOINED, CONSOLIDATED, OR COMBINED WITH ANOTHER ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WITHOUT THE PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT OF MEMBER, CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL, AND ALL PARTIES TO ANY SUCH ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING.

Terms and Conditions Policies

Club Wyndham Travel

clubwyndhamtravel.wyndhamdestinations.com

Thanks for that link - that will be helpful going forward. The language you quoted above is a class action waiver (also an important thing to know). There is an arbitration clause further down in the T&C, so a small claims case won't fly. But importantly, you can unilaterally opt out of that clause within the first 30 days of your ownership. So for those of you who will soon be new owners, judging from Wyndham's behavior, you may want to opt out of the arbitration clause.

 

[scootr5]

Arbitration is mentioned 39 times in their T&C's.

16. CLASS ACTION WAIVER - THIS PARAGRAPH CONTAINS A CLASS ACTION WAIVER THAT WILL SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT YOUR RIGHTS IF A DISPUTE ARISES.


16.1. MEMBER AND CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL AGREE THAT ANY PROCEEDING TO RESOLVE OR LITIGATE ANY DISPUTE, WHETHER IN ARBITRATION, IN COURT, OR OTHERWISE, WILL BE CONDUCTED SOLELY ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, AND THAT NEITHER MEMBER NOR CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL WILL SEEK TO HAVE ANY DISPUTE HEARD AS A CLASS ACTION, A REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, A COLLECTIVE ACTION, OR IN ANY PROCEEDING IN WHICH MEMBER OR CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL ACTS OR PROPOSES TO ACT IN A REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY. MEMBER AND CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL FURTHER AGREE THAT NO ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WILL BE JOINED, CONSOLIDATED, OR COMBINED WITH ANOTHER ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING WITHOUT THE PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT OF MEMBER, CLUB WYNDHAM TRAVEL, AND ALL PARTIES TO ANY SUCH ARBITRATION OR PROCEEDING.

17. ARBITRATION AGREEMENT/DISPUTE RESOLUTION POLICY – THIS PARAGRAPH CONTAINS AN ARBITRATION PROVISION THAT WILL SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT YOUR RIGHTS IF A DISPUTE ARISES.


17.1. ARBITRATION PROVISION (“Provision”). Any dispute, controversy or claim (“Claim”), whether preexisting, present or future, arising from or relating arising from the sale, booking, processing or payment of any cruise and travel benefits or vacation club membership services, programs or products, including but not limited to alleged violations of civil rights, discrimination, consumer protection or privacy laws, or for any losses, damages or expenses, by and between or among You and Us and Our parents, subsidiaries, affiliates, successors, assigns, heirs, officers, directors, employees, agents, business partners, third-party providers, suppliers or vendors, shall, at the election of you or us, be arbitrated on an individual basis before the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) (www.adr.org, 1-800-778-7879) or Judicial Arbitration and Mediation Services, Inc. (“JAMS”) (www.jamsadr.com, 1-800-352-5267) pursuant to their applicable rules and fee schedules, or before any other provider of arbitration services (“other provider”) to which you and we mutually agree in writing (provided such other provider adheres to the terms of this Provision). A single neutral arbitrator with expertise in the subject matter of the Claim(s) shall be appointed. If the AAA and JAMS (or other provider) cannot serve, a court with jurisdiction will select the arbitrator. The Federal Arbitration Act, 9 U.S.C. § 1, et seq., governs the interpretation and enforcement of this Provision. Any hearing will be held in a location reasonably convenient to both you and us, such as the state and county in which this agreement was signed, unless otherwise agreed by the parties in writing or ordered by the arbitrator. IF A CLAIM IS ARBITRATED, THERE WILL BE NO RIGHT TO HAVE A COURT OR TRIAL OR TO PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS ACTION OR OTHER REPRESENTATIVE ACTION IN COURT OR IN ARBITRATION.

Terms and Conditions Policies

Club Wyndham Travel

clubwyndhamtravel.wyndhamdestinations.com

Thanks for that link - that will be helpful going forward. The language you quoted above is a class action waiver (also an important thing to know). There is an arbitration clause further down in the T&C, so a small claims case won't fly. But importantly, you can unilaterally opt out of that clause within the first 30 days of your ownership. So for those of you who will soon be new owners, judging from Wyndham's behavior, you may want to opt out of the arbitration clause.

You should note, that link is for the T&Cs for "Club Wyndham Travel", offered and fulfilled by PTS (operating as Holiday Rentals, LLC in IN, MD and TX), a Florida licensed entity.

 

[Mongoose]

You should note, that link is for the T&Cs for "Club Wyndham Travel", offered and fulfilled by PTS (operating as Holiday Rentals, LLC in IN, MD and TX), a Florida licensed entity.

Thanks.

Terms of Use

By accessing Club Wyndham and/or using the Web Services, you agree to the Terms of use.

clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com

 

[klpca]

Has anyone reached out to the Attorney General in Florida? Sorry if this has been answered. I don't own Wyndham but someone does need to be made aware of this. It sounds terrible.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Has anyone reached out to the Attorney General in Florida? Sorry if this has been answered. I don't own Wyndham but someone does need to be made aware of this. It sounds terrible.

I haven't yet. I am losing the points to Wyndham or a new owner of my points. I lose them either way. I think the people who are getting gypped out of points should write letters to the AG. I know my cousin will. She took 311,000 of our points.

 

[adamrivers]

They decided to give me the points because I have pushed so hard. I still have a HORRIBLE taste in my mouth about Wyndham from this experience... but hopefully it will get better... thank you to all for the encouragement here.

 

[bnoble]

I suspect it will. The resorts really are very nice.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I suspect it will. The resorts really are very nice.

The Wyndham paradox. Terrible timeshare customer service, great resorts where you can take really inexpensive vacations if you purchased resale. Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek in my opinion rivals many of the Disney operated onsite hotels.

 

[tschwa2]

The Wyndham paradox. Terrible timeshare customer service, great resorts where you can take really inexpensive vacations if you purchased resale. Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek in my opinion rivals many of the Disney operated onsite hotels.

I don't find wyndham vacations really inexpensive with resale. I find them reasonably priced with a few bargains for week day stays.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I don't find wyndham vacations really inexpensive with resale. I find them reasonably priced with a few bargains for week day stays.

Maybe it depends on the resort, but for me, paying around $700ish in maintenance fees to stay in a 2 bedroom suite at Bonnet Creek for a week is a phenomenally good deal. Paying $1400ish in maintenance fees to stay in a 2 bedroom suite at Bonnet Creek during Christmas for a week is also a phenomenally good deal. Both are thousands less than the equivalent cash booking.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Maybe it depends on the resort, but for me, paying around $700ish in maintenance fees to stay in a 2 bedroom suite at Bonnet Creek for a week is a phenomenally good deal. Paying $1400ish in maintenance fees to stay in a 2 bedroom suite at Bonnet Creek during Christmas for a week is also a phenomenally good deal. Both are thousands less than the equivalent cash booking.

My cost is $5.85/ 1,000. 224,000 X $5.85/1,000 is only $1,310.40 for Christmas/New Year's.

We have 12/29-1/9 in a 4 bed presidential for our kids and grandkids to stay with us. Pretty expensive for that one, but sleeps 12, I guess. I cannot imagine putting 12 people in those units. We will do okay with 7 of us.

 

[rickandcindy23]

They decided to give me the points because I have pushed so hard. I still have a HORRIBLE taste in my mouth about Wyndham from this experience... but hopefully it will get better... thank you to all for the encouragement here.

So glad but also angry that Wyndham would attempt to steal the points.

I have one other person who took a large Wyndham Smoky Mountains contract that waited so long to pay that he probably won't get the points for this year, but I would bet Wyndham will take the points from me and not let me deposit them into RCI, which is what I am considering.

 

[pauljeffrey10]

The issue here seems to be that someone has to pay the maintenance fees while the unit is in transition. If the seller didn't pay the fees for all of 2023, and the buyer didn't pay the 2023 fees after the seller stopped paying, then no one can use the unit, or the points, during that time.
Units are never allowed to be used unless all maintenance fees are fully paid and up to date.
Somebody should have made it clear in the sale contract that maintenance fees until the end of 2023 were not paid and therefore use of the unit, or the points, could not begin until 2024, when fees were paid.
This isn't stealing points because no one can use the unit during transition or use those points.
If you offered to pay the unpaid 2023 fees would they allow you to use the points now? They should!

 

[Sandi Bo]

The issue here seems to be that someone has to pay the maintenance fees while the unit is in transition. If the seller didn't pay the fees for all of 2023, and the buyer didn't pay the 2023 fees after the seller stopped paying, then no one can use the unit, or the points, during that time.
Units are never allowed to be used unless all maintenance fees are fully paid and up to date.
Somebody should have made it clear in the sale contract that maintenance fees until the end of 2023 were not paid and therefore use of the unit, or the points, could not begin until 2024, when fees were paid.
This isn't stealing points because no one can use the unit during transition or use those points.
If you offered to pay the unpaid 2023 fees would they allow you to use the points now? They should!

I think the problem is you just never know when the transfer will actually complete.

IMO, it shoudn't be a crap shoot as to how many points you will get or how long it will take, will they get awarded this year or next, before or after your deadline to point deposit (if you so choose). So many variables. That just should not be there. Shame on Wyndham that transferring is SO hard. And it's not just resale transfers, same ambivalence for using their process to change from one owner to another (for example, my Dad's children or grandchildren are eligible to have the contracts transferred to them, but to do so we have to cancel any reservations and sit on our hands while we wait for Wyndham to complete the transfer - just doesn't seem right to me). Even if inheriting, you run into contract transfer BS.

Often you'll see that a seller will pay maintenance until the transfer completes. The buyer likely recieves a full use year of points while the seller has had to pay the maintenance fees until the transfer completes. Other sellers will charge a buyer 3 months maintenance fees (estimating how long it will take and stating the buyer will be responsible for paying the seller these fees).

Personally, I got everything ready to transfer at the end of the year. All that needed to be done - the 1st week of January - was to submit the transfer request (and fee) to Wyndham. I charged the buyer 3 months maintenance fees as part of the sale, feeling highly confident he would receive a full year of points by March - and have plenty of time to use them. In this situation it makes sense to me that the buyer pay the maintenance fees as he would be the once using the points. I also used LT Transfers - a very highly thought of, competent company - who has since stopped handling Wyndham because they are so hard to deal with. I know my stuff, prepped in advance, was in the best possible hands and had a high degree of confidence I would have no issues. I did not.

You are absolutely correct, someone needs to pay the maintenance fees. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Wyndham won't complete the transfer if they are not up-to-date. But why does all this have to be so hard (and have so many bumps and pitfalls ) because Wyndham doesn't seem to be able to get their act together?

And Wyndham is stealing points. The maintenance fees are paid by the seller until the transfer is complete - then it's up to the buyer. No issue there. The issue is that points disapear or become unusable along the way. In my case, the points were deducted from my account (I was the seller) and not all were given to the buyer. The buyer was told I used some of them. I had not. After seeing screenshots, Wyndham gave the buyer the points that he was due. I never used, nor expected to use, any of the points for the current use year. I always planned for the buyer to receive them all.

 

[Panzerman45]

Maybe it depends on the resort, but for me, paying around $700ish in maintenance fees to stay in a 2 bedroom suite at Bonnet Creek for a week is a phenomenally good deal. Paying $1400ish in maintenance fees to stay in a 2 bedroom suite at Bonnet Creek during Christmas for a week is also a phenomenally good deal. Both are thousands less than the equivalent cash booking.

It is a good deal looking at the big picture. There are a lot of nickle and dime people out there in re-sale land, and even if it was free, they would not be satisfied.

 

[CO skier]

The issue here seems to be that someone has to pay the maintenance fees while the unit is in transition. If the seller didn't pay the fees for all of 2023, and the buyer didn't pay the 2023 fees after the seller stopped paying, then no one can use the unit, or the points, during that time.

You do not understand the details of Wyndham contract "transitions." The seller always pays the maintenance fees until the contract is transferred, because contracts cannot be transferred unless the maintenance fees are up-to-date. This is negotiable, of course in the sale, and there are many eBay auctions where the buyer assumes maintenance fees upon purchase, but this is accomplished by prepaying the 6-months of "transition" maintenance fees as part of the auction closing, and the seller uses that prepayment to pay the maintenance fees until the contract is transferred.

There is no possibility for the "seller didn't pay the fees or all of 2023, and the buyer didn't pay the 2023 fees", because the seller cannot just stop paying the fees and have the contract successfully transfer. The seller is completely obligated to paying maintenance fees until the contract transfers to the new owner.

 

[Swans5]

I have been getting ready to sell my Wyndham Bali Hai EOY/odd. I know the low MFs are attractive but I really wanted to offer the new buyer all the 2023 points as well to help the potential sale. So now my question is:

If WYN doesn’t transfer Jan UY points on July-Dec trfrs, should I hold out till Jan to sell? To give buyer the BEST chance of keeping my unused points?

 

[paxsarah]

I have been getting ready to sell my Wyndham Bali Hai EOY/odd. I know the low MFs are attractive but I really wanted to offer the new buyer all the 2023 points as well to help the potential sale. So now my question is:

If WYN doesn’t transfer Jan UY points on July-Dec trfrs, should I hold out till Jan to sell? To give buyer the BEST chance of keeping my unused points?

You might as well start now, since there’s very little chance the contract will transfer by 12/31. Your buyer is looking at starting with 2025 usage regardless.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

You might as well start now, since there’s very little chance the contract will transfer by 12/31. Your buyer is looking at starting with 2025 usage regardless.

Just be aware that EOY 2025 contracts, even for something as attractive as Bali Hai, are not going for much on ebay right now. I've been keeping my eye on a few, they are generally selling for barely above closing costs. This is especially true now that the transfer fee is $399 and LT transfers doesn't do Wyndham anymore, and the other reputable closing companies are more expensive.

 

[paxsarah]

Just be aware that EOY 2025 contracts, even for something as attractive as Bali Hai, are not going for much on ebay right now. I've been keeping my eye on a few, they are generally selling for barely above closing costs. This is especially true now that the transfer fee is $399 and LT transfers doesn't do Wyndham anymore, and the other reputable closing companies are more expensive.

Yes, if I'd known a TUGGER was fixing to sell, I wouldn't have bought an EOY Bali Hai on eBay for barely above closing costs.

 

[Swans5]

Yes, if I'd known a TUGGER was fixing to sell, I wouldn't have bought an EOY Bali Hai on eBay for barely above closing costs.

Oh, no! So sorry! Do you (or anyone else) have a recommendation for a company besides LT? (ie, did you like the eBay seller's trfr company?)

 

[Swans5]

Yes, if I'd known a TUGGER was fixing to sell, I wouldn't have bought an EOY Bali Hai on eBay for barely above closing costs.

Oh, no! So sorry! (It's just me not having my ducks in anything resembling a row for the entirety of 2023!) Do you (or anyone else) have a recommendation for a company besides LT? (ie, did you like the eBay seller's trfr company?)

 

[HitchHiker71]

Does the agreement even allow for a jury or trial? Is there an arbitration clause?

Likely depends on the agreement in scope/signed. Below is the Arbitration section from my CWA contract signed in July 2018. There are also references to the governing documents that also contain arbitration clauses - I'd have to go looking for those documents and pull up the arbitration section: