Club Wyndham blatantly stealing points from resale sellers and buyers

[adamrivers]

I don't understand how Wyndham gets away with this, as it's clearly not legal under any circumstance (and not even by their own documents).

I acquired a resale contract and they are attempting to make me pay maintenance fees immediately, without usage or points until 2024. All of the issues have been detailed in this below letter.

Either way, what a shady company. Even if they give me the points, this is absolutely BANANALAND.

September 12, 2023



In this email, I am detailing the unacceptable issues that I have received since I became a Club Wyndham member.



The long story is actually very short: Wyndham is attempting to make me, as a new owner, pay for 4 months of maintenance fees (September, October, November, December 2023) on a product that I cannot use in 2023, by awarding me no points for this use year (Jan-Dec 2023) despite the fact that the prior owner did not use them, and continued to pay the maintenance fees for 2023. Nothing in the estoppel, contract paperwork or deed paperwork allows Wyndham to do this and I will not stand for it.



I purchased a resale contract from another member and used LT Transfers for the transfer.



The following estoppel was provided to me before I signed the transfer paperwork, which I found acceptable.



In that estoppel, Club Wyndham says “the available points that will transfer to you will depend on the seller’s point availability and the benefits used at the time the contract is transferred.”



The prior owner, (redacted), did not use any points for this year, and had the 760,000 associated points deducted from her account on resale on 8/29/2023, as shown in the below screenshot:



I got in touch with Wyndham via phone who said I can borrow points from the 2024 use year to use this year, while paying the fees. That might be permissible, but it’s not fair to me as it devalues my 2024 points and causes me to pay a much larger sum accordingly. I told them that was unacceptable, and raised the concerns further to the CEO, Michael Brown. I asked very simply for one of two things:

• Points to be given to me for the 2023 use year
• Payment to be delayed, if you are not going to give me the points, to 2024.

After raising the concerns to Mr. Brown, I received an email from Emily Carabello, who stated the following:



Currently, I have reviewed your account. I understand you are questioning why you are being asked to make a payment towards maintenance fees for the remainder of this year when your point allocation begins 01/01/2024. This would be because although the points state they begin 01/01/2024, you as an owner do uphold the opportunity to borrow points from your 2024 use year- to utilize them in this current use year. The benefits of utilizing the ownership did indeed begin once you were transferred the ownership. You also can utilize the additional benefits tied to the ownership such as hotels, RCI, Extra Holidays etc. , which are all benefits tied to the contract, and all available as of today.



For these reasons we cannot delay the payment until 2024.



I stated the following to Ms. Carabello:



Thank you for your email and quick response, Emily.



Can you show me, legally, in any of the documentation that I have received or that you have sent, where it says that I have to pay maintenance fees but cannot use the points from the prior owner? The prior owner specifically did not use the points for this year, and additionally continued to pay the maintenance fees on them. Those points just don't vanish into nowhere.



If I received the prior ownership's transfer straight up and their use year, which is exactly what you are saying here, then I should be receiving the points for their use year. Can you show me where, legally, in any of this documentation or transfer of ownership, where it says that I have to pay for something that I can not use?



I know Wyndham has not made any money on me in this transaction, but that doesn't mean that you can just decide arbitrarily what happens or doesn't. It is very clear to me that there is no legal basis that I have agreed to. I have received no documents whatsoever from Wyndham on anything - and all I have is the transfer of the deed that I attached.



I will not settle for anything less than the full points from the 2023 use year that were paid for by the prior owner for 8 months, or the payment date being moved to January 2024. I know and have reviewed very clearly that Wyndham has no legal basis to do anything short of that, and will not hesitate to pursue all available methods to ensure this transaction is fair to me.



Very sincerely,



Adam Rivers



Ms. Carabello replied with the following, and I’ve heard nothing since:



Good evening, Adam Rivers,



I have requested for the mutual agreement (contractual documents) to be mailed to the address on file, these documents would elaborate on your concerns. Please allow 7 to 14 days for it to be sent and received.



I am also going to provide you our legal correspondence teams information below, should you attain legal counsel. Please be advised you would need to file your complaint in writing:



Wyndham Vacation Ownership



Attention: Legal Consumer Affairs



6277 Sea Harbor Drive



Orlando, FL 32821



Or



Fax: 407-626-5193



Please let me know if you have any further questions and/or concerns.



Regards,

Emily Caraballo





Therefore, it’s pretty obvious. The points must transfer. There are stories on the internet of Wyndham pulling this garbage on resale owners, but there is nothing that provides for it, and the estoppel provided by Wyndham blatantly shows that “the available points that will transfer to you will depend on the seller’s point availability and the benefits used at the time the contract is transferred.”



The seller did not use the points and paid the maintenance fees.



You can not be paid for an entire year’s worth of maintenance fee and take the points away from both the seller and the buyer. You know it, I know it, the seller knows it.



I look forward to the points being deposited in my account for this use year. I will not make a maintenance fee payment until that is done. I also am ready to provide all of this evidence to the Connecticut Attorney General’s office. There also has been a late fee attached to my account as of today, and I will not be paying that either regardless, so I look forward to that being removed to my account.



Sincerely,







Adam Rivers

 

[bnoble]

Does the seller still have them? If so you and they can work something out. It might be easier than to get satisfaction from Wyndham. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try, but….

 

[paxsarah]

Does the seller still have them?

two of the Smoky Mountains are showing as points taken from us, showing as contract cancellation, 311,000 points for one, subtracted, then 760,000 for the other, also subtracted from our account. They took the points out of the account and are basically saying to the new owners, "Tough, you don't get the points for this year, but you have to start paying monthly fees starting today."

So no. Wyndham deducted the points from the seller and didn't provide them to the buyer.

 

[northovr]

At every tour I get invited too I will definitely bring this up. The last tour I did Saturday I ask about the Rick and Cindy problem with transferring weeks out of their account. I even pulled the thread up on my phone. He didn't understand but the tour ended shortly there after. I guess there new business model is get all the foreclosed inventory for themselves. Somehow it doesn't even go to foreclosure. Convert it to access and sell it again. It's free inventory.

Daniel

 

[rickandcindy23]

Does the seller still have them? If so you and they can work something out. It might be easier than to get satisfaction from Wyndham. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try, but….

No, I am the seller, and Wyndham took them from our account over two weeks ago. The points are either in limbo or Wyndham is downright stealing the points.

 

[dioxide45]

Didn't I see something reported before about contracts transferred in the last half of a year? Certainly someone is paying the fees on the points, either the seller or the buyer, but are monthly payments made in 2023 actually for the 2023 use year? I would think most HOAs need all their funds at the beining of the year to cover most one time payments (insurance, taxes) when they come up and montly payments create more of a logistical issue with cashflow.

 

[bnoble]

Converted weeks do work that way, but I think Smoky Mnts is UDI, in which case you pay in the year of use.

 

[lotus921v]

No, I am the seller, and Wyndham took them from our account over two weeks ago. The points are either in limbo or Wyndham is downright stealing the points.

I've had a contract pending since last year and they stated the (second half of the year points don't transfer part) on the phone. I'd honestly ask for a point audit and make them jump through hoops to see if they admit that they weren't used

 

[northovr]

They tell you a lot on the phone but how legal is it?

 

[randyz]

Stealing points and stealing money. Since approximately last September they have been taking my monthly payments (credit card), but crediting my account less than I paid. After many phone calls they have multiple times seen the "obvious" problem, promised a fix but none is forthcoming. Last months payment same thing. According to paymentus I am now overdue $1900 dollars including multiple $15 overdue fees. They claim it is a "mismatch" in the paymentus system, but waiting since January for it to be resolved. I can accept errors that get fixed. But this is starting to look like fraud/theft of close to $1900. On top of it all I have had my account frozen twice. At times had to phone in my booking requests to get around the "incorrect" freeze with Wyndham and RCI. What a joke.

 

[Sandi Bo]

I've said it over and over and it's been beat to death, but why aren't points just like money? They should be auditable just like money in a bank account. But they are not. Wyndham pulls them out of thin air as well as disappears them continually with undocumented and inconsistent practices (such as during resales). The great fiasco of points stripping made that abundantly clear. Wyndham got caught holding the bag and still did not accept responsibility nor implement policies to make points anymore accountable or auditable. And here we are... still Wyndham and their shenanigans...

 

[DrGavin]

I've said it over and over and it's been beat to death, but why aren't points just like money? They should be auditable just like money in a bank account. But they are not. Wyndham pulls them out of thin air as well as disappears them continually with undocumented and inconsistent practices (such as during resales). The great fiasco of points stripping made that abundantly clear. Wyndham got caught holding the bag and still did not accept responsibility nor implement policies to make points anymore accountable or auditable. And here we are... still Wyndham and their shenanigans...

What was points stripping?

 

[bnoble]

Something that required using the old Credit Pool (which no longer exists and so doesn't matter.)

 

[Sandi Bo]

Something that required using the old Credit Pool (which no longer exists and so doesn't matter.)

Now Wyndham strips them instead Really same idea, just different approach.

 

[Sandi Bo]

What was points stripping?

We used to be able to borrow (and use) points from the next few years. People would do that, have an account that wouldn't have points available (but still have maintenance due) and then sell or give away the contracts. Many were upfront about it - people would take good contracts (low maintenance fees) knowing they owed maintenance for awhile before getting any points to use. The theory is Wyndham took some back themselves, I presume not realizing the overall picture. And didn't like that they had accounts that no on would be payinging maintenance fees on. That's when they froze accounts and we saw saw big players exit (with non disclosures, so who knows what really happened). The credit pool was replaced by point depositing. Some things have changed. Wyndham not truly accounting for points or having consistent and documented policies has not.

 

[paxsarah]

The credit pool was replaced by point depositing. Some things have changed. Wyndham not truly accounting for points or having consistent and documented policies has not.

When Wyndham replaced the Credit Pool with Points Deposit, I was very disappointed, since the Credit Pool was much more flexible than Points Deposit - and yet, I understood it from Wyndham's perspective because of the use year issue. I could see why they felt they needed to eliminate the situation wherein each time an owner used the Credit Pool they created a brand-new unique 3-year-long "use year" that started and ended on some random date. I could have a use year that started on 9/18/2016 and ended on 9/17/2019, and another couple from other years on other random dates, then my regular 1/1-12/31 use years sprinkled in there - it was a mess. Obviously, it would be easier on Wyndham's systems for all moved points to conform to a set of use year dates that already existed in that owner's account, which is what they did with Points Deposit. And yet, Sandi, your post reminds me that Wyndham hasn't demonstrated that this is helping them keep track of points any better than they could before.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I don't appreciate the lie that we used our points and nothing left for the new owner. That is downright stealing, and if they continue with this, I will be forced to write yet another letter to the FL AG.

 

[RX8]

I don’t own Wyndham and I am just reading this thread out of curiosity. However, I have thought about a Wyndham purchase in the past. Frankly, after reading about account suspensions and what now appears to be blatant point stealing I have put Wyndham on my do not buy list right next to Westgate.

 

[TUGBrian]

is the 2nd or 3rd post on this very issue ive seen/read.... definately a buyer/seller beware after june or july of any given year for a resale transaction!

 

[paxsarah]

is the 2nd or 3rd post on this very issue ive seen/read.... definately a buyer/seller beware after june or july of any given year for a resale transaction!

Given the transfer timeframe, I'd say the safest window for initiating the purchase of a January use year contract is probably September through about February. September, you assume you're not going to get the current year's points, and February is hopefully early enough to transfer before July. But if it gets drawn out for any reason, you could still find yourself unexpectedly receiving your contract in the second half of the year.

 

[dioxide45]

Though if you are buying a contract that doesn’t come with current use year points, then timing isn’t as important.

 

[adamrivers]

Club Wyndham's executive office hasn't replied to me in over a week, even to acknowledge it. I have called twice and they give me a run around and say they can't help me while a case is pending.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Yes. I have seen several other people having the same issue. I cannot believe Wyndham has the audacity to blatantly steal points and lie that we used the points, when I have screen shots showing the points were removed from our account.

is the 2nd or 3rd post on this very issue ive seen/read.... definately a buyer/seller beware after june or july of any given year for a resale transaction!

 

[Jan M.]

Adding to what @Sandi Bo posted. There was a glitch with the credit pool that owners reported, some multiple times. We've never known if it happened every time to every owner. For some when they'd cancel reservations made with points in the credit pool, they'd get back more points than they should've. Some owners figured out what was happening and exploited the glitch to manufacture points in their accounts.

In spite of the issue having been reported multiple times it was ignored until the numbers were so hugely out of whack it became too obvious that something was very wrong to continue to be ignored.

You may see the term silos used in old posts here on TUG. One hand, department, doesn't know what the other one is doing. Failure to communicate. It's my opinion, that I'm sure some others share, that sales numbers and concerns dominate with Wyndham to the extent that anything and everything else is given very little priority.

The freeze on a number of owners accounts in August 2016 was to figure out who had abused the glitch and to what extent. At that time Wyndham had no idea about the point stripping that had been going on even longer. When Wyndham's legal team accused Ron P. of exploiting the glitch, he told them about the point stripping. Also that he wasn't the only one doing it.

When Ron P. sold those stripped contracts to other people, his listings said there were no points available for the current year or even the next year and stated when the next points would be available. Many times the contracts came into those owners accounts with full points but it wasn't something he could guarantee. Now here's the part that many of us find amusing. Through their somewhat silent partners Wyndham was a major buyer of large lots of those stripped contracts from Ron and the others in his group. When Wyndham resold them, they were sold with full points.

Ron P. has given numbers in his posts and when you consider he was one of a group doing this, it likely adds up to several hundred million points over the period of the 2-3 years they were doing it. That's a huge loss that Wyndham had to eat. The credit pool glitch, which accounts for more points that many people likely realize, the stripping and reselling with full points.

Wyndham was incompetent to manage their own accounting resulting in a huge deficit. And yet they have the unmitigated gall to insist we trust them on audits done with The Freeze or when our accounts are realigned to consolidate the use years. Good luck trying to get an accounting of an audit to see for yourself how it was done and if it's correct.

As @Sandi Bo and others have repeatedly said, points=$. No one in their right mind would accept not getting a clear accounting from their bank, credit union, credit card company, utility company, etc. Wyndham has proven time and again how slipshod their accounting and practices are, yet still demands we trust them while refusing to give us transparency. How is this even legal?

 

[CO skier]

Though if you are buying a contract that doesn’t come with current use year points, then timing isn’t as important.

The timing is important. Who wants to pay months of maintenance fees for points the seller used? For January Use Year contracts with no points available, the purchase timing would be July to December, if all the points are available for the following Use Year.