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Club Dues

SueDonJ

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Interesting, based on some of the things posted here, it made it seem like while there were learning curves back then, it was much more clear cut when it was rolled out.

This is a much larger onion and at every layer, there is a disaster
Nope, it wasn't clear AT ALL. We had the same/similar problems with our new clunky website, didn't understand Club Dues or the new various usage options, had a terrible time trying to get through the phone queues to find knowledgeable reps, and faced the exact same level of frustration (if not more due to the 2010 rollout being A Completely New Thing for everyone.) As just one example of the disaster, it took us more than a year to overcome the prevailing falsehood that enrollment equated to a permanent exchange of Weeks for Destination Club points (a falsehood that inexplicably and frustratingly continues to some extent to this day!)

It's the same onion for existing Vistana owners/members as it was for Marriott owners/members - it's basically an overlay exchange sandbox that will have some effect on your existing ownerships if you choose to play in it. The difference is that Vistana owners/members have the experience of Marriott owners/members to help them through the various layers or provide pointed directions to more easily get through any layers that are unfamiliar. There are a few TUGgers who own and have expert-level knowledge in both Vistana and Marriott systems as well as Abound - I'd lean on them as much as they're willing to be pushed. :)
 
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SueDonJ

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I did like the "rip the bandaid off" approach that they did in 2010. Yes, there were lots of rumors and similar sales rep lies about the new program. This time around though, it seems like there was truly a process to sanction lies by salespeople. The whole soft rollout was launched at the sales level. It didn't seem like they knew how everything would work and convinced many people that they had to buy more points in order to participate. The soft rollout of this basically provided a licence to the sales team to make up lies and mistruths to boost sales and it looks like the push in this direction came from top levels of the organization.
I liked the clean slate of it, but it's a mistake to think that it was easy to get through the thick of it. It wasn't easy at all. I know without the braintrust on TUG to help, it would've been that much worse trying to figure it out.
 

Mulege

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I own WKORV I thank you all for your input. Now I just need to get the refund for $155 I already paid for my WMH VSN fees. I’m assuming you don’t pay those if you joined Abound.
 

dioxide45

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I own WKORV I thank you all for your input. Now I just need to get the refund for $155 I already paid for my WMH VSN fees. I’m assuming you don’t pay those if you joined Abound.
That would be correct. You should not have been billed $155 on WMH for 2023.
 

CPNY

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Nope, it wasn't clear AT ALL. We had the same/similar problems with our new clunky website, didn't understand Club Dues or the new various usage options, had a terrible time trying to get through the phone queues to find knowledgeable reps, and faced the exact same level of frustration (if not more due to the 2010 rollout being A Completely New Thing for everyone.) As just one example of the disaster, it took us more than a year to overcome the prevailing falsehood that enrollment equated to a permanent exchange of Weeks for Destination Club points (a falsehood that inexplicably and frustratingly continues to some extent to this day!)

It's the same onion for existing Vistana owners/members as it was for Marriott owners/members - it's basically an overlay exchange sandbox that will have some effect on your existing ownerships if you choose to play in it. The difference is that Vistana owners/members have the experience of Marriott owners/members to help them through the various layers or provide pointed directions to more easily get through any layers that are unfamiliar. There are a few TUGgers who own and have expert-level knowledge in both Vistana and Marriott systems as well as Abound - I'd lean on them as much as they're willing to be pushed. :)
Many of the dual vistana/Marriott owners are just as confused as the vistana only owners.

Many of us on TUG think we have it figured out but there are still so many more un answered questions that even the Marriott folks do not know. Trying to get a straight answer on club dues or why there is a 3,000 enrollment fee for mandatory VOI’s effective 1/1/23 is like pulling teeth.

As you said, vistana owners are lucky in that we have marriott owners who understand the nuances of the Abound program in regards to reservations, cancellations, banking, and inventory release dates to help us. Especially that last point, inventory release dates are significantly different than how the VSN operated. I’m grateful for that!

The major issue is this process has been a slow, painful, and confusing rollout which gave the sales team plenty of time to offer mistruths and lies. I don’t hate the program at all, especially since I was granted presidential level via resales. Was Marriott generous here? Or was there something legally that forced them to include mandatory ownerships? Can they exclude mandatory resales post 8/9 just because “they said so”?

It is interesting since most of the contracts state that a network member must be enrolled into Abound and VSN members are network members. Is it like interval where mandatory units receive corp interval accounts regardless of resale status? If abound is an exchange just the same as interval then I’d expect the mandatory unit receive access to the abound exchange regardless of when it was purchased. I’d love to hear others thoughts on this. Someone who knows the contracts better will be able to set that straight in less than a minute and I welcome the correct answer.
 

SueDonJ

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Many of the dual vistana/Marriott owners are just as confused as the vistana only owners.
Yes, but their familiarity at least gives them the knowledge to help figure out what's important to drill into and what's not.
Many of us on TUG think we have it figured out but there are still so many more un answered questions that even the Marriott folks do not know. Trying to get a straight answer on club dues or why there is a 3,000 enrollment fee for mandatory VOI’s effective 1/1/23 is like pulling teeth.
It's the same with Marriott in that if an owner doesn't pay the Club Dues one year it's basically an election to opt out of Abound, and opting back in will be subject to whatever eligibility rules and fees are in effect at the time of re-enrollment. At the Marriott rollout ALL owners eligible for enrollment had to pay a one-time Enrollment Fee so I suppose you can be grateful you haven't been subjected to a like introductory offer. (We might also take into consideration that a few years into the DC they started offering incentives that waived the eligibility requirements such as with simultaneous Trust Points purchases or specific non-US Weeks purchases, and waived Enrollment Fees for eligible Weeks if certain webinars are viewed.)
As you said, vistana owners are lucky in that we have marriott owners who understand the nuances of the Abound program in regards to reservations, cancellations, banking, and inventory release dates to help us. Especially that last point, inventory release dates are significantly different than how the VSN operated. I’m grateful for that!
I don't mean only with the mechanics, though, because eventually everyone's going to learn the mechanics through experience. The TUGgers I'm thinking of are the ones who have always tried to drill into the whys and not just the hows.
The major issue is this process has been a slow, painful, and confusing rollout which gave the sales team plenty of time to offer mistruths and lies. I don’t hate the program at all, especially since I was granted presidential level via resales. Was Marriott generous here? Or was there something legally that forced them to include mandatory ownerships? Can they exclude mandatory resales post 8/9 just because “they said so”?
No argument that the whole shebang causes confusion, and the sales reps claims based on their own suppositions don't ever help. But they're a fact of timeshare life so IMO there's no reason to give them any more credibility or criticism just because this is a new thing. I find it's easier just to expect the majority of sales reps to make everything worse and harder to understand, and instead rely on TUG to teach me what's what.

I have no idea what legalities (other than what's stated in the docs) might be in play with eligibility or Marriott's "generosity" but like you, I'm appreciative of what makes my ownership better. I certainly have benefited from it unexpectedly - when I first enrolled my points allotments entitled me to the highest status and I expected that if/when they adjusted the status tiers to require more points to keep it, they'd drop me down (because that's what the docs give them the right to do.) But a status tier adjustment came and instead, they grandfathered existing members (including me) to keep their original status. I have no idea what will happen with any future tier adjustments, whether we'll be grandfathered forever or eventually dropped, but there's nothing I can do about it either way so I'll just wait to see if/when it happens.

[ETA] Note the grandfathering that I'm talking about here has applied only to status tier adjustments that were implemented by Marriott and not via any changes instigated by owners/members. The docs also say that member tiers will be adjusted up/down with any subsequent purchases/sales by owners, and that certainly does happen. If I were to sell any of my enrolled Weeks then I fully expect that my status tier will no doubt change consistent with the tier requirements in effect at the time.
It is interesting since most of the contracts state that a network member must be enrolled into Abound and VSN members are network members. Is it like interval where mandatory units receive corp interval accounts regardless of resale status? If abound is an exchange just the same as interval then I’d expect the mandatory unit receive access to the abound exchange regardless of when it was purchased. I’d love to hear others thoughts on this. Someone who knows the contracts better will be able to set that straight in less than a minute and I welcome the correct answer.
Again, in the docs they state eligibility rules and requirements for Abound, so I'm not sure what else comes into play. Just because the Abound Exchange Company shares some features with II or can be likened as another exchange company, doesn't mean that Marriott is mandated to implement rules and entitlements of any other exchange company including II. I'm not sure why that would be an expectation when you consider that no exchange companies, II/RCI/etc, are identical to each other.
 
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Eric B

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Again, in the docs they state eligibility rules and requirements for Abound, so I'm not sure what else comes into play. Just because the Abound Exchange Company shares some features with II or can be likened as another exchange company, doesn't mean that Marriott is mandated to implement rules and entitlements of any other exchange company including II. I'm not sure why that would be an expectation when you consider that no exchange companies, II/RCI/etc, are identical to each other.

It's not so much that the Abound Exchange Program "can be likened" to an external exchange program as it is that Marriott/Vistana has laid out the eligibility requirements and use of it as an external exchange program in the latest revision to the Vistana Network Rules in the recently released document entitled "Vistana Signature Network Disclosure Guide For Mandatory Members of the Vistana Signature Network," Network Guide R-19 (Mandatory Resorts). I've copied the pertinent section below. To me the bottom line is that Marriott/Vistana as the Network Operator can amend the Network Rules without input from the members at any time, but when it does, as the Network Operator, Marriott/Vistana currently has the obligation under those Network Rules to provide notice of the amendment. There are probably some legal aspects of this as a disclosure guide for how the VSN works and how it interacts with the Abound Exchange Program, but Marriott/Vistana say Abound is an external exchange program that each Network Member has access to. Other parts of the disclosure guide cover what it takes to become a Network Member, but none of those parts include the August 9, 2022, date that was announced by email. There is discussion of an enrollment fee and the ability to restrict a Network Member that did not buy from an Approved Broker from having access to "special benefits," but they made the choice to categorize access to Abound as an external exchange program rather than as a special benefit.

I completely agree that Marriott/Vistana is not mandated to implement rules and entitlements for exchange companies. The part that I have trouble with is that they did so voluntarily and they should have to follow the rules and entitlements that they have officially promulgated in a disclosure to the public. They continue to have the right to change those rules and entitlements, but I think they could run afoul of some legal requirements as well as consumer expectations if they try to do so in closely guarded rules or something like that, particularly when they contradict what they have disclosed.

V. External Exchange Programs​

In order to increase the range of options available to Network Members, Network Operator has made arrangements for each Network Member to have access to the following External Exchange Programs: Interval International (“Interval Exchange Program”) and the Abound Exchange Program. All external exchange requests will be handled by Network Operator and the applicable External Exchange Company provider. A Network Member who is interested in an external exchange must contact Owner Services and indicate the Network Member’s preference for an exchange.

a. For exchanges through the Abound Exchange Program, Owners must follow the Abound Exchange Program Exchange Procedures and exchange Vacation Periods in 7-consecutive evening increments for Exchange Points (as defined in such Exchange Procedures) by the applicable deadlines. Owners of Points-based VOIs in the Flex Vacations Ownership Plan, the Flex Collection Vacation Ownership Plan or the Aventuras Vacation Ownership Plan are able to elect all Home Options assigned to their VOI or may elect in increments of 20,000 Home Options to receive Exchange Points. However, for certain single site points-based plans such as Coral Vista Vacation Ownership Plan, Sunset Bay Vacation Ownership Plan and Nanea Ocean Villas Vacation Ownership Plan, the entire Home Option amount assigned to each VOI must be elected to receive Exchange Points. For exchanges through the Interval Exchange Program, a Network Member may make an external exchange request up to one year in advance of the Network Member’s VOI Use Year, or at any time prior to the end of the Network Member’s Use Year, subject to the limitations in Section 4.7 above. Following verification of the identity of the Network Member and verification that the Network Member is a Network Member In Good Standing, an Owner Services representative will note the Network Member’s desired exchange request including specific time, destination, and type of room type along with any other special requests. The Network Member may also be asked to designate more than one alternative set of exchange requests, in order to increase the Network Member’s chances of getting a desired exchange. Confirmed exchange requests are final transactions. Confirmed Network Member participation in either the Interval Exchange Program or the Abound Exchange Program will be governed by the terms and conditions of the respective External Exchange Program and the following:

(1) In identifying the Network Member’s VOI being assigned for external exchange, the Network Member acknowledges that he/she has relinquished all other use rights for that particular VOI or the designated number of StarOptions or Ownership Points allocated to the VOI.

(2) All rules and regulations that apply to the use of Units and Network facilities by Network Members also will apply to users of such Units and facilities through the External Exchange Program.

(3) Network Members participate in a customized exchange method that is offered by the External Exchange Company to Network Members. As a result, there may be differences in the way Network Members access external exchange benefits from the standard exchange methods that may be generally published by the External Exchange Company to non-Network Members.

(4) With the exception of Vacation Periods reserved at the Home Resort, Network Members are prohibited from renting to a third party any accommodation reserved through the Network’s exchange program, including accommodations of the External Exchange Program.

(5) Availability of accommodations within the External Exchange Program is dependent on the vacation ownership interests from various External Exchange Program member resorts that are deposited into it by other members of the External Exchange Program from time to time. A Network Member can have no assurance that an External Exchange Company will be able to provide the Network Member with an accommodation that meets the Network Member’s needs and desires when the Network Member wants it or at a particular time. The exchange accommodation received may or may not be comparable in size, layout, furnishings, services, or amenities to those in Network Resorts.

b. Network Member participation in the Interval Exchange Program will also be governed by the following:

(1) If a Network Member intends to assign a current or future use year to the Interval Exchange Program, the Network Operator may require the Network Member to pay in advance, at the time of assignment, the Network Member’s total estimated maintenance fees, taxes, and Club Dues for the Use Year being assigned provided that Network Operator shall be obligated to remit such estimated maintenance fees, taxes, and Club Dues to the Home Resort if required by applicable law.

(2) The Interval Exchange Program will charge a Network Member an exchange fee for each confirmed exchange through the Interval Exchange Program.

(3) Each Use Year, a Network Member shall be permitted to request an Interval Exchange Program assignment for each eligible VOI owned by the Network Member, regardless of the number of Vacation Periods such Member may be entitled to reserve in the Network through the use of StarOptions. A Network Member owning a VOI in a Lock-Off Unit may request an exchange assignment for one or both portions of the Lock-Off Unit with the Interval Exchange Program and shall be permitted one external exchange per exchange assignment requested. Reservation requests for any remaining unassigned portion of the Lock-Off Unit will continue to be subject to the Network Reservation Window priorities.

(4) External exchange assignments to the Interval Exchange Program are valid for travel for up to 36 months from January of the Use Year of the assignment. As an example, a Network Member requesting an external exchange assignment in January 2022 may travel on the deposit through December 31, 2024. A Network Member requesting an external exchange assignment in August 2023 may travel on the deposit through December 31, 2025.

(5) External exchange assignments to the Interval Exchange Program may be cancelled no later than December 1st of the occupancy year. A Network Member’s use right will be reinstated based on availability at the time the exchange assignment is cancelled, and a Network Member is not guaranteed availability at the Home Resort or a Network Resort.
 

CPNY

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It's not so much that the Abound Exchange Program "can be likened" to an external exchange program as it is that Marriott/Vistana has laid out the eligibility requirements and use of it as an external exchange program in the latest revision to the Vistana Network Rules in the recently released document entitled "Vistana Signature Network Disclosure Guide For Mandatory Members of the Vistana Signature Network," Network Guide R-19 (Mandatory Resorts). I've copied the pertinent section below. To me the bottom line is that Marriott/Vistana as the Network Operator can amend the Network Rules without input from the members at any time, but when it does, as the Network Operator, Marriott/Vistana currently has the obligation under those Network Rules to provide notice of the amendment. There are probably some legal aspects of this as a disclosure guide for how the VSN works and how it interacts with the Abound Exchange Program, but Marriott/Vistana say Abound is an external exchange program that each Network Member has access to. Other parts of the disclosure guide cover what it takes to become a Network Member, but none of those parts include the August 9, 2022, date that was announced by email. There is discussion of an enrollment fee and the ability to restrict a Network Member that did not buy from an Approved Broker from having access to "special benefits," but they made the choice to categorize access to Abound as an external exchange program rather than as a special benefit.

I completely agree that Marriott/Vistana is not mandated to implement rules and entitlements for exchange companies. The part that I have trouble with is that they did so voluntarily and they should have to follow the rules and entitlements that they have officially promulgated in a disclosure to the public. They continue to have the right to change those rules and entitlements, but I think they could run afoul of some legal requirements as well as consumer expectations if they try to do so in closely guarded rules or something like that, particularly when they contradict what they have disclosed.

V. External Exchange Programs​

In order to increase the range of options available to Network Members, Network Operator has made arrangements for each Network Member to have access to the following External Exchange Programs: Interval International (“Interval Exchange Program”) and the Abound Exchange Program. All external exchange requests will be handled by Network Operator and the applicable External Exchange Company provider. A Network Member who is interested in an external exchange must contact Owner Services and indicate the Network Member’s preference for an exchange.

a. For exchanges through the Abound Exchange Program, Owners must follow the Abound Exchange Program Exchange Procedures and exchange Vacation Periods in 7-consecutive evening increments for Exchange Points (as defined in such Exchange Procedures) by the applicable deadlines. Owners of Points-based VOIs in the Flex Vacations Ownership Plan, the Flex Collection Vacation Ownership Plan or the Aventuras Vacation Ownership Plan are able to elect all Home Options assigned to their VOI or may elect in increments of 20,000 Home Options to receive Exchange Points. However, for certain single site points-based plans such as Coral Vista Vacation Ownership Plan, Sunset Bay Vacation Ownership Plan and Nanea Ocean Villas Vacation Ownership Plan, the entire Home Option amount assigned to each VOI must be elected to receive Exchange Points. For exchanges through the Interval Exchange Program, a Network Member may make an external exchange request up to one year in advance of the Network Member’s VOI Use Year, or at any time prior to the end of the Network Member’s Use Year, subject to the limitations in Section 4.7 above. Following verification of the identity of the Network Member and verification that the Network Member is a Network Member In Good Standing, an Owner Services representative will note the Network Member’s desired exchange request including specific time, destination, and type of room type along with any other special requests. The Network Member may also be asked to designate more than one alternative set of exchange requests, in order to increase the Network Member’s chances of getting a desired exchange. Confirmed exchange requests are final transactions. Confirmed Network Member participation in either the Interval Exchange Program or the Abound Exchange Program will be governed by the terms and conditions of the respective External Exchange Program and the following:

(1) In identifying the Network Member’s VOI being assigned for external exchange, the Network Member acknowledges that he/she has relinquished all other use rights for that particular VOI or the designated number of StarOptions or Ownership Points allocated to the VOI.

(2) All rules and regulations that apply to the use of Units and Network facilities by Network Members also will apply to users of such Units and facilities through the External Exchange Program.

(3) Network Members participate in a customized exchange method that is offered by the External Exchange Company to Network Members. As a result, there may be differences in the way Network Members access external exchange benefits from the standard exchange methods that may be generally published by the External Exchange Company to non-Network Members.

(4) With the exception of Vacation Periods reserved at the Home Resort, Network Members are prohibited from renting to a third party any accommodation reserved through the Network’s exchange program, including accommodations of the External Exchange Program.

(5) Availability of accommodations within the External Exchange Program is dependent on the vacation ownership interests from various External Exchange Program member resorts that are deposited into it by other members of the External Exchange Program from time to time. A Network Member can have no assurance that an External Exchange Company will be able to provide the Network Member with an accommodation that meets the Network Member’s needs and desires when the Network Member wants it or at a particular time. The exchange accommodation received may or may not be comparable in size, layout, furnishings, services, or amenities to those in Network Resorts.

b. Network Member participation in the Interval Exchange Program will also be governed by the following:

(1) If a Network Member intends to assign a current or future use year to the Interval Exchange Program, the Network Operator may require the Network Member to pay in advance, at the time of assignment, the Network Member’s total estimated maintenance fees, taxes, and Club Dues for the Use Year being assigned provided that Network Operator shall be obligated to remit such estimated maintenance fees, taxes, and Club Dues to the Home Resort if required by applicable law.

(2) The Interval Exchange Program will charge a Network Member an exchange fee for each confirmed exchange through the Interval Exchange Program.

(3) Each Use Year, a Network Member shall be permitted to request an Interval Exchange Program assignment for each eligible VOI owned by the Network Member, regardless of the number of Vacation Periods such Member may be entitled to reserve in the Network through the use of StarOptions. A Network Member owning a VOI in a Lock-Off Unit may request an exchange assignment for one or both portions of the Lock-Off Unit with the Interval Exchange Program and shall be permitted one external exchange per exchange assignment requested. Reservation requests for any remaining unassigned portion of the Lock-Off Unit will continue to be subject to the Network Reservation Window priorities.

(4) External exchange assignments to the Interval Exchange Program are valid for travel for up to 36 months from January of the Use Year of the assignment. As an example, a Network Member requesting an external exchange assignment in January 2022 may travel on the deposit through December 31, 2024. A Network Member requesting an external exchange assignment in August 2023 may travel on the deposit through December 31, 2025.

(5) External exchange assignments to the Interval Exchange Program may be cancelled no later than December 1st of the occupancy year. A Network Member’s use right will be reinstated based on availability at the time the exchange assignment is cancelled, and a Network Member is not guaranteed availability at the Home Resort or a Network Resort.
I had the external exchange information ready to be copied and pasted, however instead I will provide the following: this is coming from my Bella governing documents. This states that the mandatory VOI is a member in the Network. The Network being the VSN which is also an exchange company.

MANDATORY Membership in the Network
A purchaser of a Vacation Ownership Interest (“VOI”) in a Club Resort automatically is enrolled as a Club Member and a Network Member at the time that the purchaser acquires such VOI. There is no Network contract separate and distinct from the purchaser’s contract with the developer of the vacation ownership plan at a Club Resort, and the terms of such membership are as set forth in the Club Documents and the Network Documents. Membership in the Network is granted to all purchasers of Club Resort VOIs. A resort becomes a Club Resort by means of a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and a developer or management company for a Club Resort under which the accommodations and facilities of that resort are included as a part of the Club. All Club Resorts are affiliated with the Network by means of a Network Affiliation Agreement between the Club Operator and Network Operator. The purchaser’s decision to use the Network exchange program by making a reservation for a Vacation Period at a Network Resort, or otherwise using StarOptions after the expiration of the Home Resort Preference Period is voluntary. If the Network Member no longer owns a Club Resort VOI, the person will no longer be a Network Member and the new owner of that Club Resort VOI automatically will become the Network Member. Membership in the Network also is dependent on the continued affiliation between the Network and the Club Resort where the Network Member owns a VOI.

VOLUNTARY:
A purchaser at a non-Club Resort is not automatically a member of the Network. To use and enjoy benefits of membership in the Network, a purchaser of a Vacation Ownership Interest at a Network Resort must be enrolled by Network Operator, which will require the execution of an Owner Membership Agreement and the payment of any applicable fee, as determined by Network Operator. The terms and conditions of such membership also may be set forth in the Resort Documents for that Network Resort. Such Network Member's decision to use the Network by reserving a Vacation Period at a Network Resort, or otherwise using StarOptions after the expiration of the Home Resort Reservation Period is voluntary. For so long as such Network Member remains a Network Member, such Network Member’s ability to reserve use of the Vacation Period related to the Network Member’s VOI, or any other Network accommodations, is subject to the Network Rules. Membership in the Network automatically terminates if the Network Member voluntarily or involuntarily transfers the Network Member's VOI and owns no other VOI, or if the Network Member's Home Resort ceases to be a Network Resort. Network Membership is not transferable.
2
NETWORK GUIDE R-10 (MANDATORY RESORTS)

Owner Information Page 260

this is coming from the Abound procedures. While it states that membership is not an appurtenance to an interest, it goes on to state that in order to enjoy benefits of membership the VSN affiliating agreement between network operator and exchange company must be current with member in good standing. So If I’m understanding this correctly, it is saying that you’re not guaranteed membership just by owning a deed in a club resort, but that club resort must have an agreement to be a part of the exchange program. Since there is an affiliation agreement in place, can they really exclude mandatory members In good standing considering mandatory members are network members?

VSN Members. This section only applies to VSN Members. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to an Interest. In order for VSN Members to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program, the VSN Affiliation Agreement between Network Operator and Exchange Company must be current and the member must be a VSN Member in good standing. VSN Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of Membership in the Program. During the term of the VSN Affiliation Agreement, VSN Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of the Program or an Affiliate Program in accordance with these Exchange Procedures. Unless otherwise provided pursuant to the VSN Affiliation Agreement, VSN Members have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of the Network in accordance with the applicable Vistana Signature Network Rules and Regulations. If a VSN Member desires to use the Accommodations outside Vistana Signature Network or access Special Benefits that may be offered by Exchange Company from time to time, the VSN Member may voluntarily participate in the Program as described in these Exchange Procedures.
Membership in the Program automatically terminates for a given VSN Member if the VSN Member voluntarily or involuntarily transfers the VSN Member’s Interest and owns no other Interest, the VSN Member does not timely pay dues or other amounts owed to VSN or otherwise fails to maintain membership in the Vistana Signature Network, or if the Vistana Signature Network ceases to be affiliated with the Program because the VSN Affiliation Agreement is terminated or is not renewed.
A Program Member who qualifies as more than one type of member under the Program (i.e., Direct Member, Exchange Member, and/or VSN Member) shall be deemed a Direct Member, Exchange Member, or VSN Member, as appropriate, in the context of the type of Interest of the Program Member being considered when interpreting these Exchange Procedures, provided, however, such Program Member may combine the Exchange Points associated with each of the Program Member’s Interests for purposes of enjoying the benefits and privileges of the Program, including making reservations, subject to the terms and conditions of each individual Affiliate Program.

III.

Does this make the whole 8/9 date worthless?
Also, I read that anyone who brings Marriott to arbitration will be responsible for all court fees and lawyers fees if they lose.
 
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daviator

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$307.29 is what @daviator reported in the database for Club Dues for 2023 associated with a WKORV 2 BR Premium. IIRC someone had mentioned that Hawaii taxes those; hence my post #81 above.
I got charged $307.29 on my WKORV bill for club dues (Chairman's.)
 

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I haven't seen anything actually in a contract or in the Network Rules that lists the 8/9 resale restriction. All I ever saw was in an email saying that that restriction would exist, though it hasn't seemed to manifest in a concrete way anywhere I can find it now that the Network Rules have actually been amended. Have you actually seen anything besides the email?
I have not seen it anywhere other than the FAQ’s that have been released. I wonder if they have no legal way to add that restriction to mandatory ownerships and they are just throwing out there and doing whatever they please in the hopes that no one challenges them on it.
 

kozykritter

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I have not seen it anywhere other than the FAQ’s that have been released. I wonder if they have no legal way to add that restriction to mandatory ownerships and they are just throwing out there and doing whatever they please in the hopes that no one challenges them on it.
I thought about that. There must be legal leeway for them in the existing document. I say this because for years and years they were able to determine which VSN benefits a mandatory resale was entitled to and those that were off limits. Specifically those ownerships didn't count towards elite levels, did not receive Bonvoy status benefits and weren't eligible to convert to Bonvoy points. If that was illegal, I suspect it would have come up previously. We might not be able to figure out how all the terms and definitions fit together to give them this right but I'm betting their lawyers know. Therefore I feel they believe they can decide which benefits they are going to give that class of mandatory resales without it violating the agreement.
 

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I thought about that. There must be legal leeway for them in the existing document. I say this because for years and years they were able to determine which VSN benefits a mandatory resale was entitled to and those that were off limits. Specifically those ownerships didn't count towards elite levels, did not receive Bonvoy status benefits and weren't eligible to convert to Bonvoy points. If that was illegal, I suspect it would have come up previously. We might not be able to figure out how all the terms and definitions fit together to give them this right but I'm betting their lawyers know. Therefore I feel they believe they can decide which benefits they are going to give that class of mandatory resales without it violating the agreement.
Valid point, but I’d say that this is a different situation. No where in the governing documents does it say that bonvoy conversion is mandated. The fact that they added it into the abound exchange program is their own doing. By Allowing access to the abound exchange program for all VSN members in good standing, one can argue that ALL VSN members in good standing are eligible for Abound. That would make all members eligible for bonvoy conversion. Based on their own rules.

In order to increase the range of available options, certain Network Members may have the ability to exchange their reserved Vacation Period for Starpoints and to use these Starpoints to access the hotels and other benefits and services available through the Starwood Preferred Guest Program by means of the Starpoints Conversion Program. In addition to exchanging their reserved Vacation Period for Starpoints, certain Network Members at Network Points Resorts may also have the ability to exchange a portion of the Ownership Points associated with their VOI for Starpoints. Starpoints are the symbolic unit of use medium that enables an eligible Network Member to access the Starwood Preferred Guest Program. Network Members who participate in the Starpoints Conversion Program must comply with the terms and conditions of this program, as set forth in the Starpoints Disclosure Statement and Starwood Preferred Guest Program terms and conditions. The Starwood Preferred Guest Program and the Starpoints Conversion Program are separate programs and are not part of the Network or the Club. Access to the Starpoints Conversion Program is not transferable and the terms of both the Starwood Preferred Guest Program and the Starpoints Conversion Program are subject to change at any time and without notice
 

Eric B

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I thought about that. There must be legal leeway for them in the existing document. I say this because for years and years they were able to determine which VSN benefits a mandatory resale was entitled to and those that were off limits. Specifically those ownerships didn't count towards elite levels, did not receive Bonvoy status benefits and weren't eligible to convert to Bonvoy points. If that was illegal, I suspect it would have come up previously. We might not be able to figure out how all the terms and definitions fit together to give them this right but I'm betting their lawyers know. Therefore I feel they believe they can decide which benefits they are going to give that class of mandatory resales without it violating the agreement.
They can do that and be consistent with the Network Rules because those things are "special benefits," which are discussed in section 8.1 of the latest version of the Network Rules included in the disclosure guide. There is also the following sentence in section 8.4, which covers transfers, "If the purchase of a VOI is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such VOI(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Network Operator’s sole discretion, even if the enrollment fee is paid." Bottom line is, again, that eligibility to the Abound Exchange Program was set up by the Network Operator in the Network Rules as being open to Network Members as an External Exchange Program without any limitation that would exclude certain Club Resort (mandatory) Owners rather than as a "special benefit" that they could restrict the unwashed resale owners from using. I think that they should follow the Network Rules as they wrote them.
 

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@kozykritter
3B5E2D83-CC33-48AE-A687-4DA0501AE0DD.jpeg

@Eric B
Ok, so new VSN members shall not be required to pay an initiation fee for the PROGRAM (Abound), does this go for new VSN members who buy today from Vistana or are we all considered new members when the program was released?

It states that we may be required to pay an enrollment or initiation fee for the NETWORK (VSN) based on applicable VSN rules and regulations. There are no VSN rules and regulations that I’m aware of that forces anyone to pay an initiation or enrollment fee to be part of the VSN. Any new rule for Abound eligibility would be listed in the Abound rules and regulations. Again, I’ll argue that Once a VSN member then you’re part of the Abound program.

Basically Marriott is saying that even if you lay their junk fee, they can still limit special benefits.
 
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dioxide45

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@kozykritter View attachment 70945
@Eric B
Ok, so new VSN members shall not be required to pay an initiation fee for the PROGRAM (Abound), does this go for new VSN members who buy today from Vistana or are we all considered new members when the program was released?

It states that we may be required to pay an enrollment or initiation fee for the NETWORK (VSN) based on applicable VSN rules and regulations. There are no VSN rules and regulations that I’m aware of that forces anyone to pay an initiation or enrollment fee to be part of the VSN. Any new rule for Abound eligibility would be listed in the Abound rules and regulations. Again, I’ll argue that Once a VSN member then you’re part of the Abound program.
I beleive "the Program" is Abound. In this case there would be no initiation fee to be paid, however a fee may be required for the Network. The Network is VSN.
 

CPNY

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I beleive "the Program" is Abound. In this case there would be no initiation fee to be paid, however a fee may be required for the Network. The Network is VSN.
Right, and there is no fee to be part of the VSN outside of a new retro purchase. However, the purchase would just turn on special benefits and nothing more for an existing mandatory resale.

As far as I know, Abound does not have those same limitations like the half in/half out VSN memberships. Historically, mandatory VOI’s were half in because we can use the SO in the VSN but half out because we couldn’t use all of the other special benefits like Bonvoy conversion/elite status/resort credits/cruises (I may be wrong on these last two) etc.

Does Abound actually have that or is it written in their rules in such a way that will allow them to alter the program and add those restrictions in the future?
 

dioxide45

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Right, and there is no fee to be part of the VSN outside of a new retro purchase. However, the purchase would just turn on special benefits and nothing more for an existing mandatory resale.

As far as I know, Abound does not have those same limitations like the half in/half out VSN memberships. Historically, mandatory VOI’s were half in because we can use the SO in the VSN but half out because we couldn’t use all of the other special benefits like Bonvoy conversion/elite status/resort credits/cruises (I may be wrong on these last two) etc.

Does Abound actually have that or is it written in their rules so they can alter the program and add those restrictions in the future?
The Abound rules do indicate that purchase not made from an Approved Broker won't be eligible for Special Benefits. They just don't enforce that in any way.
 

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The Abound rules do indicate that purchase not made from an Approved Broker won't be eligible for Special Benefits. They just don't enforce that in any way.
“May not be” and “in their sole discretion”. That’s their way of saying slight chance of snow in June. It could snow in June depending on where you live ha.

That’s not just for VSN resales, I assume it’s for all resales of club points as well. Basically pay the junk fee and your points get everything as if you purchased from Marriott and if they decide to take those special benefits away from resales in the future they can do so. They can do what they want without having to re write the rules.
 

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I will need to call CS in January on this as well as how, if possible, to pay the club dues online as it was not attached to any of our VOI's maintenance fees for 2023 and I cannot find any link on my dashboard to do so.
Looks like the link to pay club dues online is now up on my dashboard and I was able to pay them.
 

mjm1

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Just a heads up to anyone who owns Vistana and was already paying club dues to Marriott.

As discussed earlier, we paid our club dues with Marriott. Vistana also billed us as part of our MF's, so in November I contacted them and they said they are aware of the problem and are working on it. I have contacted them several times since then, but the $295 charge still appears on one of our contracts. We did pay our regular MF's. We were also told that our name is on a list they are maintaining and we shouldn't pay the club dues.

That brings us to yesterday when I called to ask about a reservation. I was told that our account was in "denial of usage status," because we have an unpaid fee. I filled the representative in on prior conversations, notes of which she could see in our account, and demanded that our active status be restored. Long story short we are now active again, but the charge remains on our account. I will continue to monitor it.

So, if you are in a similar situation, I encourage you to make sure you aren't in "denial of usage status" as soon as possible. I believe you can tell if you try to make an online reservation and the system doesn't allow you to do so. The other is to call Vistana and speak to a representative. I feel for the people we speak with as they bare the brunt of calls, but IT needs to get their act together.

Best regards.

Mike
 

dioxide45

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Just a heads up to anyone who owns Vistana and was already paying club dues to Marriott.

As discussed earlier, we paid our club dues with Marriott. Vistana also billed us as part of our MF's, so in November I contacted them and they said they are aware of the problem and are working on it. I have contacted them several times since then, but the $295 charge still appears on one of our contracts. We did pay our regular MF's. We were also told that our name is on a list they are maintaining and we shouldn't pay the club dues.

That brings us to yesterday when I called to ask about a reservation. I was told that our account was in "denial of usage status," because we have an unpaid fee. I filled the representative in on prior conversations, notes of which she could see in our account, and demanded that our active status be restored. Long story short we are now active again, but the charge remains on our account. I will continue to monitor it.

So, if you are in a similar situation, I encourage you to make sure you aren't in "denial of usage status" as soon as possible. I believe you can tell if you try to make an online reservation and the system doesn't allow you to do so. The other is to call Vistana and speak to a representative. I feel for the people we speak with as they bare the brunt of calls, but IT needs to get their act together.

Best regards.

Mike
Are you in a situation where with Marriott and Vistana you have two different primary owners on each account? Some people have reported this being an issue. Say you are the primary owner with Marriott and your spouse is primary with Vistana, it prevents them from linking them up properly for the Club Dues billing.
 

mjm1

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Are you in a situation where with Marriott and Vistana you have two different primary owners on each account? Some people have reported this being an issue. Say you are the primary owner with Marriott and your spouse is primary with Vistana, it prevents them from linking them up properly for the Club Dues billing.
Thanks for asking. Both are titled in our trust and I believe I am the primary sub-account. I will have to look into that to make sure that is the case.

Best regards.

Mike
 

dioxide45

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Thanks for asking. Both are titled in our trust and I believe I am the primary sub-account. I will have to look into that to make sure that is the case.

Best regards.

Mike
I wonder if it isn't the trust causing the issue? Not sure if I have heard this type of scenario before.
 

mjm1

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I am pleased to share that our account now reflects no amount due. I opened up the account this afternoon and noted that it reflects a "developer payment" of $295, which is the amount billed for the Abound club dues. Hopefully this isn't just a work around for this year, but I made a note to check our account in November or December after the bill for 2024 arrives. At least it is good news for now.

Best regards.

Mike
 

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I just logged in and see a place in which to pay club dues. It is a separate link from paying MFs.
From Dashboard, click on View Statement and Make Payment.
The next page shows 2 sections, the first for Club fees, and 2nd for MFs.
However when I click view/pay dues link it takes me to a Marriott website which subsequently gives a page error.
And I'm instructed to call owner services :rolleyes:.
At least they have a call back option, so you don't have to stay on the phone forever....

View attachment 70187
I have the same problem over the last year. Still have the same error as of today. I sent emails, but never got an reply. Call 3 different times and was put on hold for 30+ min. The chatbot is a joke.

Any resolution? Please?
 
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