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CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

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Mroze

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We have a pretty good cross-section of Vistana ownership here. I'd like to hear from a single owner that was surveyed about this. I'm guessing this is more lies; I was not surveyed, and none of the other Vistana owners I know personally were surveyed or contacted. Of course, there are many thousands of owners so it's certainly possible it happened, but I think we'd have heard about it here.
+1 for another VSN owner that was not surveyed.
I am pretty sure 99.99% that no such survey exists.
If a survey is done, the data needs to be analyzed [standardized, studied] before any decisions can be made to act on the same.

This is just another line the salesperson may have made along with "No Enrollment Fee" which doesn't align with what other salespersons have siad.
I give as much credence to this salesperson as I do the ones I met.
I am now in wait-and-see mode and don't plan to act on any info coming from salespersons or hear-say during the Soft-Launch.
 

Red elephant

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When I told them I had enough weeks and did not need anymore points. They told me the best way to maximize as a chairman is to use DPs for explorer package .
Tours
Cruises
Hotels . They no longer mention conversion to bonvoy points as it no longer gives value. But say that booking hotels with DPs is better value. Does any Marriot owners here know if this is true?
 

rickandcindy23

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If you don't want to deal with clueless people, book online. I mostly have booked online and prefer it as I can see exactly what is available and what I'm booking.
I cannot book all of my weeks online. I own too many SBP to book them online. The Vistana system cannot search through that many weeks. Believe me, their system is the worst. That being said, I own enough prime summer weeks to book well over a year out, but the system doesn't allow for that either. I always, always have to call. I also have to call to separate the two one bedrooms. I am thinking of booking all one bedrooms and no lockoffs in the future for SBP only.
 

VacationForever

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When I told them I had enough weeks and did not need anymore points. They told me the best way to maximize as a chairman is to use DPs for explorer package .
Tours
Cruises
Hotels . They no longer mention conversion to bonvoy points as it no longer gives value. But say that booking hotels with DPs is better value. Does any Marriot owners here know if this is true?

Very poor value when using DC points to book Collette Tours, Cruises and on the small list of Marriott hotels that accept them.
 

DanCali

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When I told them I had enough weeks and did not need anymore points. They told me the best way to maximize as a chairman is to use DPs for explorer package .
Tours Cruises Hotels . They no longer mention conversion to bonvoy points as it no longer gives value. But say that booking hotels with DPs is better value. Does any Marriot owners here know if this is true?

Salespeople try to convince you that it's a good use of points by doing fuzzy math.

They start with telling you that you have a WKV Plat 2BR week with $1700 MF that converts to 4050 points so you are paying 42c per points. Then if you can get 50c per point for cruises (number made up) they will say you got a good deal because it's a value of $2025 (50c * 4050 points).

While that can sound compelling, the issue with that type of math is that the MFs are mostly irrelevant because that's already paid. Now, assuming you do not use the week, the question is what you do with the week as an alternative to using it.

(1) You can rent the actual week for $4200 (use the cash for cruises if you want). Actual rental value can be higher or lower, but I'd consider this a 5-year reliable average.
(2) You can elect 4050 points and rent the points at 69c which is a value of $2800 (use the cash for cruises if you want).
(3) Get a cruise value of $2025
(4) Elect 216,000 Bonvoy points - which at a 0.8c value are worth ~$1700

So do you want a value of $1700, $2025, $2800, or $4200+?

That is why the prevailing consensus here is that Bonvoy points are a bad deal. Cruises and hotel conversions are a similar story. And DC points conversion will likely be, for many VSN resorts, another suboptimal way to make use of the timeshare you own.

Obviously, this math can be done for any resort and, when you do it this way, I suspect cruises and hotels come out around as bad as Bonvoy points...
 
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jabberwocky

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We have a pretty good cross-section of Vistana ownership here. I'd like to hear from a single owner that was surveyed about this. I'm guessing this is more lies; I was not surveyed, and none of the other Vistana owners I know personally were surveyed or contacted. Of course, there are many thousands of owners so it's certainly possible it happened, but I think we'd have heard about it here.
I think the average TUG Vistana owner would not be a good candidate for a focus group. TUG members are an extremely small subset of Vistana owners. Most of us have bought into the concept of buying resale. MVC is really interested in those who have and continue to spend big on retail purchases.

Surveys are designed to be broad, while focus groups are typically selected to engage with your target market. I’d be shocked if any of us were invited.
 

remowidget

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We have a pretty good cross-section of Vistana ownership here. I'd like to hear from a single owner that was surveyed about this. I'm guessing this is more lies; I was not surveyed, and none of the other Vistana owners I know personally were surveyed or contacted. Of course, there are many thousands of owners so it's certainly possible it happened, but I think we'd have heard about it here.
It certainly could be a lie, it is from sales. It could be one question on an optional survey somewhere along the way. I doubt I would remember a specific question like this a year or two ago, heck even last week at this point. Lol. It's very unlikely they asked me because I don't like doing surveys.

Either way, does it matter. It seems pretty common sense to me that Vistana owners wouldn't be happy about a fee to enroll. I also think they probably found that out when they rolled out Destination Points in 2010. It's my understanding that some people still have not enrolled even though they offered free options to enroll over the years. If I was Marriott, I would quietly enroll all of the remaining Marriott weeks owners as well.
 

sail27bill

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If Marriott doesn't charge a fee to "enrolled" Vistana owners that would be a win win for both Marriott and the owner. I also think that it is smart marketing. Unless you own a premium Vistana resort, the points allocation will be much, much less than what it costs to stay in the Marriott premium resorts. Thus, Marriott can say hey "buy some more points and you don't have to worry about exchanging thru II, look at all these additional choices and now you will be truly a part of the Marriott family (and not just a step-child)." Hence a open stream of new customers. However they leave out the true benefit--renting points to achieve the same thing without additional upfront money. This is why I bought the minimum points during Covid and have used them to my advantage. Why buy additional when you can rent inexpensively?

According to this thread my SVV Platinum will get around 2700 points. Not nearly enough to book what I usually get from II. I have used II to stay in Marriott Aruba, HHI and Oceanwatch resorts in platinum season, Oceana Palms in gold, and a lot of other very nice Marriott resorts. And I will continue to use II to trade up. The only benefit I can see to enroll is if I needed a specific date for a special occasion and I want to set it up easily way in advance.

I also have a harborside week-- true non-lockoff 2 bedroom which rents extremely well. I can only see opting for DCPs if they are assigned a high value. Otherwise-nope!

Lastly, I am disappointed with the increase in bonvoy points for hotel stays. In the past, I traded my timeshare a few times and really benefited from it. Now Marriott is really raking in the dough with redemption. I guess it was nice while it lasted.

I truly like Marriott resorts and for those Vistana owners (myself included) that are looking for increased destinations, this is definitely a positive benefit. I just hope that the benefit outweighs the costs in the long run.
 

TravelTime

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I think the average TUG Vistana owner would not be a good candidate for a focus group. TUG members are an extremely small subset of Vistana owners. Most of us have bought into the concept of buying resale. MVC is really interested in those who have and continue to spend big on retail purchases.

Surveys are designed to be broad, while focus groups are typically selected to engage with your target market. I’d be shocked if any of us were invited.

Makes sense. Does anyone know what percentage of Vistana owners might be TUG owners? Like you, I suspect it’s a small subset.
 

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Makes sense. Does anyone know what percentage of Vistana owners might be TUG owners? Like you, I suspect it’s a small subset.

I think our TUG numbers are very a small percentage when you take into account total Marriott and Vistana owners. A few years ago I recall being told there were ~100k Vistana owners and ~200k Marriott owners. My guess is that TUG Vistana owners are 5-10% of all owners. Anyone else have a guess?
 

TravelTime

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I think our TUG numbers are very a small percentage when you take into account total Marriott and Vistana owners. A few years ago I recall being told there were ~100k Vistana owners and ~200k Marriott owners. My guess is that TUG Vistana owners are 5-10% of all owners. Anyone else have a guess?

It is unbelievable that so many people would pay retail prices for MVC. I assume they start with low packages of DP for about $20K-$30K. Then they add more after that. I just googled this and there are 700,000 owners and members of MVC.

 
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jabberwocky

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Well, with 111,000 registered TUG users overall, it’s going to be incredibly small proportion. I’m going to guess that we have no more than 500 active Vistana owners here (I’m sure we have many lurkers). It’s probably less than 0.5% of all Vistana owners.

I’m not sure how it breaks down with Vistana owners vs MVC vs Hyatt and Welk, but last I saw they have over 700k owners (not VOIs).
 

TravelTime

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Well, with 111,000 registered TUG users overall, it’s going to be incredibly small proportion. I’m going to guess that we have no more than 500 active Vistana owners here (I’m sure we have many lurkers). It’s probably less than 0.5% of all Vistana owners.

I’m not sure how it breaks down with Vistana owners vs MVC vs Hyatt and Welk, but last I saw they have over 700k owners (not VOIs).

I agree it has to be small since 111,000 registered TUG users represents many timeshare companies. We would have to see what percentage are MVC owners and Vistana owners.
 

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It is unbelievable that so many people would pay retail prices for MVC. I assume they start with low packages of DP for about $20K-$30K. Then they add more after that. I just googled this and there are 700,000 owners and members of MVC.


Great info. That 700,000 includes all lines-Marriott, Hyatt, Vistana and everything else they have purchased. The ~200k+ figure I was referencing was probably 5+ years ago for original Marriott alone. Marriott members were roughly 2x Vistana at that time.
 

dioxide45

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I think our TUG numbers are very a small percentage when you take into account total Marriott and Vistana owners. A few years ago I recall being told there were ~100k Vistana owners and ~200k Marriott owners. My guess is that TUG Vistana owners are 5-10% of all owners. Anyone else have a guess?
Less than 1%. There are about 10 million timeshare owners in the USA and only a little more than 100,000 registered members on the TUG BBS. THough that 100,000 is made up of many people that simply aren't active, moved on, sold their timeshare, passed away or they are bots.
 

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Less than 1%. There are about 10 million timeshare owners in the USA and only a little more than 100,000 registered members on the TUG BBS. THough that 100,000 is made up of many people that simply aren't active, moved on, sold their timeshare, passed away or they are bots.
The reality is that if most timeshare owners have an understanding like TUG members, the model wouldn’t work. Timeshare complexity is what allows the system to function and provides the opportunities for outsize value. And our resale mantra would mean nothing if retail timeshares were never bought.
 

Mroze

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The reality is that if most timeshare owners have an understanding like TUG members, the model wouldn’t work. Timeshare complexity is what allows the system to function and provides the opportunities for outsize value. And our resale mantra would mean nothing if retail timeshares were never bought.
Good point.

I assume that every TS we purchase RESALE has been initially purchased RETAIL and would not pass transfer unless all liabilities were met which means that the Resort-Companies are made whole.
 

SueDonJ

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And if that's not complicated enough then you should know Tuesday and Friday is DC points inventory for 13 and 12 months reservations respectively.

Weeks inventory is released 13 and 12 months before the first allowed checkin day for the week you are interested in. For some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Friday checkin date and for some it might be 12 and 13 months out before a Thursday checkin date.

Welcome to MVC!
I recently noticed that MVC has a calculator in the portal and you can put in the date you want to travel and it tells you when you can book. I found that helpful. I suspect many people do not know the release dates. It took me awhile to finally understand how it works. Now I find it easy and not different than Vistana’s 12 and 8 month booking windows. I like to plan well already of 8 months so 13 and 12 is preferable to me.
That calculator has been there for as long as I've owned and it's there because you need it. In Vistana there is no inventory release calendar because you don't need one. Just count 8 or 12 months back from the checkin date...

With Marriott I've owned pre-2010 and I have a pretty good idea how weeks inventory works, but I always check with the calculator just in case. And that fact the inventory for Friday, Saturday and Sunday is all released on the same day at resorts with F/Sa/Su checkins causes a huge rush at 9am ET at 13 months out (12 months out you can also try online and hope the website doesn't crash).

On top of that, different resorts can have different checkin dates so if you happen own at multiple resorts the inventory may be released using a different formula at each one. For example, you could own 3 weeks - Newport Coast, Crystal Shores, Streamside (Birch) and say you want to reserve July 8, 2023. They all have different inventory release dates for that inventory - could be July 6, July 7, or July 8 (or June 6-8 at thirteen months out).

Is that really "no different than Vistana"? Maybe only the website crashes are no different :)


It really isn't all that difficult to understand the release dates for booking Marriott Weeks or Points. The owners' website has a 'Helpful Tools' section where you follow the prompts to select whether you're using Weeks or Points, your desired resort and check-in date (and if using Points, the number of nights of your desired stay,) after which the inventory release date field is populated. I get why it was confusing having to know the seasonal calendar of the resort(s), the release day of the week and whether a holiday might push the date a day ahead or behind because that's what we needed to know back before these tools were made available, but with these website tools it's not necessary to know any of the machinations now. It's really been made very simple.

As for the reservation rules using owned Weeks:

- when booking single Weeks; the Release Date is 12 months prior to the first check-in day of the desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9AM Eastern on that date, and you can either book online or through a call to Owner Services.

- when booking multiple Weeks that fall consecutively/concurrently on the calendar (at either the same resort or different resorts); you must be using units or lock-off components from two or more owned Weeks, the Release Date is 13 months prior to the first check-in day of the first desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9:00AM Eastern on that date, and you must call Owner Services because the online system does not support immediate confirmations of multiple intervals. (There is an online request form for 13-mos Weeks inventory but those requests aren't handled until the phone queue is empty, so don't rely on it for anything but the least-demand inventory.)

*Worth noting is that Marriott is allowed to release for 13-mos bookings only "up to 50%" of the Weeks intervals, then at 12-mos all intervals become available. (Also worth noting is that there is language in the governing docs that prevents Marriott from using the 13-mos window to book its own intervals, although I'm not sure if that language is in every resorts' gov docs. It's definitely in those for one of my resorts.)

And for DC Points:

- the Reservation Windows are dependent on ownership status levels and the number of nights of the desired intervals. (Special rules may come into play if you're using restricted Holding Account points and/or booking something in the Luxury/Ritz-Carlton categories.) Again, figuring it out is not as difficult as it might appear, and it's made clear in this 'Benefits At A Glance' chart. Inventory is 'officially' released at 9AM Eastern but in practice it's actually released shortly after midnight on the release day, and, all Points reservations can be processed online.

*Worth noting is that a similar "up to 50%" restriction for 13-mos Points inventory is stated in the docs.

********************
More and more reading this thread I'm convinced that the only real integration that's going to happen is that certain Vistana Weeks/Points will be eligible to be elected on an annual basis for Marriott Destination Club Points. If the same rules as what are in place with Marriott enrolled Weeks apply, then enrolling a Vistana product should have no bearing on the Reservation Rules and Windows currently being used by Vistana owners. That means that if you enroll and don't elect DC Points in a given year, the same rules/windows that you use now will be what you use then. If you enroll and elect DC Points in a given year, then you will use the rules/windows that apply to DC Points. That's what I expect will happen but of course, it's anybody's guess right now.
 
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Captron

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It is called mandatory for a reason. Doing as this suggests would mean it is voluntary. For mandatory Vistana properties, membership in VSN is written into the governing condominium CC&R documents. It isn't something that the owner can opt out of nor opt out of passing on. You hold a deed bound by the CC&R, you have mandatory membership in VSN. The only way to change this is to get a vote from the BOD willing to get a vote from owners. Likely requires a supermajority to pass.

Are people confusing that it is "mandatory" for the owners to have their units in VSN and it is mandatory for the developer to continue the VSN program? I think the former is accurate but not the latter. The operator has the option to change or discontinue the program at their discretion (on a whim). I believe they can and would do so when and if they believe the advantages (primarily financial/adding to shareholder value) are greater than the disadvantages (financial, member dissatisfaction, legal challenges, etc.)
 

dioxide45

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Are people confusing that it is "mandatory" for the owners to have their units in VSN and it is mandatory for the developer to continue the VSN program? I think the former is accurate but not the latter. The operator has the option to change or discontinue the program at their discretion (on a whim). I believe they can and would do so when and if they believe the advantages (primarily financial/adding to shareholder value) are greater than the disadvantages (financial, member dissatisfaction, legal challenges, etc.)
I don't think people are confusing mandatory. Vistana can make changes to the VSN program, but I don't think they can completely replace it with something new to be able to exclude mandatory resorts/owners. If they come up with a new program and eliminate the existing one, the new program could really be considered the club and mandatory resorts would be required to pe part of it. Thus one reason they will utilize a separate program (MVC DC) to facilitate the new program. If they had the ability to just create a new program and eliminate VSN to squeeze out mandatory somehow, they would have done it long ago.
 

DanCali

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It really isn't all that difficult to understand the release dates for booking Marriott Weeks or Points. The owners' website has a 'Helpful Tools' section where you follow the prompts to select whether you're using Weeks or Points, your desired resort and check-in date (and if using Points, the number of nights of your desired stay,) after which the inventory release date field is populated. I get why it was confusing having to know the seasonal calendar of the resort(s), the release day of the week and whether a holiday might push the date a day ahead or behind because that's what we needed to know back before these tools were made available, but with these website tools it's not necessary to know any of the machinations now. It's really been made very simple.

As for the reservation rules using owned Weeks:

- when booking single Weeks; the Release Date is 12 months prior to the first check-in day of the desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9AM Eastern on that date, and you can either book online or through a call to Owner Services.

- when booking multiple Weeks that fall consecutively/concurrently on the calendar (at either the same resort or different resorts); you must be using units or lock-off components from two or more owned Weeks, the Release Date is 13 months prior to the first check-in day of the first desired interval, the inventory is released immediately at 9:00AM Eastern on that date, and you must call Owner Services because the online system does not support immediate confirmations of multiple intervals. (There is an online request form for 13-mos Weeks inventory but those requests aren't handled until the phone queue is empty, so don't rely on it for anything but the least-demand inventory.)

*Worth noting is that Marriott is allowed to release for 13-mos bookings only "up to 50%" of the Weeks intervals, then at 12-mos all intervals become available. (Also worth noting is that there is language in the governing docs that prevents Marriott from using the 13-mos window to book its own intervals, although I'm not sure if that language is in every resorts' gov docs. It's definitely in those for one of my resorts.)

And for DC Points:

- the Reservation Windows are dependent on ownership status levels and the number of nights of the desired intervals. (Special rules may come into play if you're using restricted Holding Account points and/or booking something in the Luxury/Ritz-Carlton categories.) Again, figuring it out is not as difficult as it might appear, and it's made clear in this 'Benefits At A Glance' chart. Inventory is 'officially' released at 9AM Eastern but in practice it's actually released shortly after midnight on the release day, and, all Points reservations can be processed online.

*Worth noting is that a similar "up to 50%" restriction for 13-mos Points inventory is stated in the docs.

This issue of reservation window started with discussing the complexity of the systems. I never said it's impossible to understand the Marriott system. I also said you get used to it over time. But the point I was making is that for someone coming from the Vistana world, there are things in the MVC world that will seem very complex or overwhelming at first. The reservation/inventory system is one of them. The fact that MVC has these website tools, just strengthens the argument that their rules are too complex to figure out otherwise...

Here are the Vistana inventory release dates/rules:

For home resort reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 12 months in advance of your desired checkin date.
For Staroptions reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 8 months in advance of your desired checkin date.


There are no website tools because anyone can subtract a year from a desired checkin date. Now compare that to all the MVC rules you explained... :)
 

remowidget

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This issue of reservation window started with discussing the complexity of the systems. I never said it's impossible to understand the Marriott system. I also said you get used to it over time. But the point I was making is that for someone coming from the Vistana world, there are things in the MVC world that will seem very complex or overwhelming at first. The reservation/inventory system is one of them. The fact that MVC has these website tools, just strengthens the argument that their rules are too complex to figure out otherwise...

Here are the Vistana inventory release dates/rules:

For home resort reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 12 months in advance of your desired checkin date.
For Staroptions reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 8 months in advance of your desired checkin date.


There are no website tools because anyone can subtract a year from a desired checkin date. Now compare that to all the MVC rules you explained... :)
There are plenty of people who don't understand the Vistana Program. Lol. If someone doesn't understand what they purchased, what are the odds they will understand a new add on program.
 

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I don't think people are confusing mandatory. Vistana can make changes to the VSN program, but I don't think they can completely replace it with something new to be able to exclude mandatory resorts/owners. If they come up with a new program and eliminate the existing one, the new program could really be considered the club and mandatory resorts would be required to be part of it. Thus one reason they will utilize a separate program (MVC DC) to facilitate the new program. If they had the ability to just create a new program and eliminate VSN to squeeze out mandatory somehow, they would have done it long ago.

If the sole restriction on the scope of changes they make is that they can't exclude mandatory resorts, I'm not sure how comforting that is (i.e. if they can completely assign the exchange values, whether you call them StarOptions or DPs, in any way they wish). Yes, perhaps we can safely say mandatory resorts will continue to be able to participate in the "VSN program" (even if that program effectively morphs into MVC DP) without any "buy in" fee.....but except for the Hawaii resorts that receive fairly generous DP designations, what comfort is that to any other owners? At worst, MVC is left with a small set of "mandatory" (legacy VSN) resorts that have a right to participate in MVC DP baked into their CCRs, with an even smaller subset receiving much value for such participation.
 

SandyPGravel

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There are plenty of people who don't understand the Vistana Program. Lol. If someone doesn't understand what they purchased, what are the odds they will understand a new add on program.
I will most definitely agree with you on this point. I inherited my TS from my mother who kept one week for herself. This is when I discovered she had absolutely no idea how to use it. She had bought an annual, and three EOY. Starwood found an easy mark. She still has the EOY, (as far as I know), and would be the first one to pony up more $$$ because someone told her she had to for the new system.
 

SueDonJ

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This issue of reservation window started with discussing the complexity of the systems. I never said it's impossible to understand the Marriott system. I also said you get used to it over time. But the point I was making is that for someone coming from the Vistana world, there are things in the MVC world that will seem very complex or overwhelming at first. The reservation/inventory system is one of them. The fact that MVC has these website tools, just strengthens the argument that their rules are too complex to figure out otherwise...

Here are the Vistana inventory release dates/rules:

For home resort reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 12 months in advance of your desired checkin date.
For Staroptions reservations - you can first book at midnight ET exactly 8 months in advance of your desired checkin date.


There are no website tools because anyone can subtract a year from a desired checkin date. Now compare that to all the MVC rules you explained... :)
My point, though, is that for someone coming over from Vistana who has enrolled Weeks or Flex Points (however the integration happens,) what is so difficult to learn? The instructions have been made very simple by the tools on the website:

"Elect your ownership for Destination Club Points. Sign in to your account. Click on "When Can I Reserve" in the "Helpful Tools" section. Select "Using Vacation Club Points" and input the desired check-in date, after which the boxes for all Release Dates will be auto-populated."

Like I said, I understand why Marriott's rules used to be more difficult than Vistana's to understand, back in the days of only Weeks in the portfolio when you had to look at seasonal calendars to determine which days of the week could be check-in days at any of the resorts, and you had to know which days of the week inventory is released and whether a holiday might push that back or forward a day, and you had to know how to string together consecutive intervals to get the best advantage of the earliest release date .... blah blah blah. But that was - and still is - only applicable to Weeks (except they've simplified all that with a Release Date tool specific to Weeks, too.) Vistana people won't be using Marriott Weeks, they'll be using Marriott Destination Club Points (if the integration happens as we assume) and with Marriott Points it's simple! Know your eligibility for the different windows based on your individual DC status and know the date you want to check in, then use the Helpful Tool! Right now, today, I'm able to use it to learn the release dates for check-ins all the way out to 5/4/25, and with it online I can surely find two free minutes night or day to check any date through then.

These tools are some of the most owner-friendly things that Marriott has ever given us, after years of us questioning why they didn't give us something to make our lives easier! Don't make your life any more difficult than it needs to be - use the tools. :)
 
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