CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[TravelTime]

Yes, but whatever method they use it's unrelated to rental values. Rental value is a real alternative for owners.

Other have suggested it may be developer price. Maybe, maybe not... But that's really a "sunk cost" and has nothing to do with what owners elect going forward.



And as others pointed out WKV rents quite well in weeks outside of March as well.

WKV Platinum season is 1-21, 51-52. You can do the same exercise for January, February and April. Scottsdale seems 15%-20% less on average. The one exception (not below) is New Year's week where Maui is indeed double. But just week 52 - they are again similar for week 51.

I went with hotels because there is no availability on their website for the timeshare. And I went with a comparison as close as I could - Westin vs Westin, which is the analogous for the timeshare comparison (WKV vs WKORV). Looks like Marriott rents Scottsdale hotels for 15%-20% less than Maui but values it's timeshares at ~50% less. Why should owners play along?

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Based on your data, it looks like there is a pretty big differential between WKV and Maui. Also I would guess that the other issue is room category. I assume you are comparing the lowest room category in Maui to the highest (or close to highest) room category in WKV. I am assuming that WKV does not have many room categories since there are no views like at an oceanside resort. I really do not think MVC has a conspiracy thing going on. I suspect their experts are smart and they know how to price. You really need to look at every room category in both hotels across all seasons to do determine if Marriott is pricing appropriately.

 

[DanCali]

Based on your data, it looks like there is a pretty big differential between WKV and Maui. Also I would guess that the other issue is room category. I assume you are comparing the lowest room category in Maui to the highest (or close to highest) room category in WKV....

I suspect their experts are smart and they know how to price...

I did admit there is a difference. Yes, it's the lowest priced rooms (remember these are hotel rooms, not timeshares, so I'm not comparing a studio on Maui to a 1BR at WKV).

I also said that difference is about 15%-20% by eyeballing it. Whether that's "pretty big" or "big" or "small" that's subjective. It's certainly not as much as WKV is undervalued below compared to others. We've compared it to Maui a lot in this thread, but it's even more obvious with WLR where rental values on Redweek and marriott.com are significantly lower (50%+ less) than WKV peak season. Not only are summer weeks (part of Platinum season at WLR) still available on marriott.com - you can get a 2BR for mid-July for ~$350/night.

For some reason the "experts" doing this really like an ocean next to the resort, even if it has nothing to do with supply/demand...

We own WLR & WKV so those #'s are exact. However, the #'s for Hawaii are approximates.
Based on the posts earlier in this thread we expect.

• WLR-2BR-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] = 4950-DCP
• WKV-2BR-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] = 4050-DCP
• HAWAII-2BR-ISLAND-VIEW [148.1K-SO] = ~7500-DCP
• HAWAII-2BR-OCEAN-VIEW/FRONT [176K-SO] = ~8500-DCP

 

[Ken555]

I did admit there is a difference. Yes, it's the lowest priced rooms (remember these are hotel rooms, not timeshares, so I'm not comparing a studio on Maui to a 1BR at WKV).

I also said that difference is about 15%-20% by eyeballing it. Whether that's "pretty big" or "big" or "small" that's subjective. It's certainly not as much as WKV is undervalued below compared to others. We've compared it to Maui a lot in this thread, but it's even more obvious with WLR where rental values on Redweek and marriott.com are significantly lower (50%+ less) than WKV peak season. Not only are summer weeks (part of Platinum season at WLR) still available on marriott.com - you can get a 2BR for mid-July for ~$350/night.

For some reason the "experts" doing this really like an ocean next to the resort, even if it has nothing to do with supply/demand...

Every resort/hotel seems to be currently less expensive in Cancun than in the Phoenix area. I don't know if this is an indication of the times or if it's been this way for years.

 

[DanCali]

Every resort/hotel seems to be currently less expensive in Cancun than in the Phoenix area. I don't know if this is an indication of the times or if it's been this way for years.

To be honest, I don't know. Justifiably or not, Mexico has some reputation that it can be an unsafe place (cartels, crime, tainted booze, corrupt police - not sure how much any of this affects tourists, if at all) so I suspect some potential visitors just opt to go to other locations.

That said, I don't think AZ is in direct competition with Cancun, but the peak season in AZ is in much higher demand by any metric.

 

[Ken555]

To be honest, I don't know. Justifiably or not, Mexico has some reputation that it can be an unsafe place (cartels, crime, tainted booze, corrupt police - not sure how much any of this affects tourists, if at all) so I suspect some potential visitors just opt to go to other locations.

That said, I don't think AZ is in direct competition with Cancun, but the peak season in AZ is in much higher demand by any metric.

Yes. Thanks for the comparison info - it just reinforces my opinion that Marriott is devaluing WKV relative to its current SO exchange capability and shows how poor a deal it is to enroll WKV Plat+ weeks, as long as SO use is available.

 

[dioxide45]

Every resort/hotel seems to be currently less expensive in Cancun than in the Phoenix area. I don't know if this is an indication of the times or if it's been this way for years.

Cancun also has 30,000 hotel rooms. Lots of competition.

 

[dioxide45]

Yes. Thanks for the comparison info - it just reinforces my opinion that Marriott is devaluing WKV relative to its current SO exchange capability and shows how poor a deal it is to enroll WKV Plat+ weeks, as long as SO use is available.

THat may be the key. Will WKORV owners be more likely to convert their weeks to MVC Club points, thus leaving less availablilty of them with StarOptions? It could be possible in the new system for a WKORV owner to get maybe 12-14 nights at WKV using Club Points where right now they get seven. The big question will be what inventory looks like in VSN after all is said and done several years down the road.

 

[DanCali]

THat may be the key. Will WKORV owners be more likely to convert their weeks to MVC Club points, thus leaving less availablilty of them with StarOptions? It could be possible in the new system for a WKORV owner to get maybe 12-14 nights at WKV using Club Points where right now they get seven. The big question will be what inventory looks like in VSN after all is said and done several years down the road.

Based on the sentiment here they may not find lots of WKV inventory in the DC exchange

But your point is still quite valid - 7500-8500 DC points is very good trading power to exchange into other Marriott resorts.

 

[dioxide45]

Based on the sentiment here they may not find lots of WKV inventory in the DC exchange

But your point is still quite valid - 7500-8500 DC points is very good trading power to exchange into other Marriott resorts.

Very true, they may convert hoping for WKV and have to settle for MCV.

 

[Red elephant]

Based on the sentiment here they may not find lots of WKV inventory in the DC exchange

But your point is still quite valid - 7500-8500 DC points is very good trading power to exchange into other Marriott resorts.

Unfortunately this is a very small group of owners. Majority of owners may want to deposit into DP to go elsewhere in MVC. Especially if they receive enough points to do so. So the real question is that can dose points get you elsewhere in the Marriott system?

 

[CPNY]

Unfortunately this is a very small group of owners. Majority of owners may want to deposit into DP to go elsewhere in MVC. Especially if they receive enough points to do so. So the real question is that can dose points get you elsewhere in the Marriott system?

Most owners don’t even know their VSN weeks can turn into star options at 8 months….. they just book what they own and call it a day.

 

[TravelTime]

From reading over the years on TUG, I have been under the impression that many people buy at WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs as opposed to actually staying there on a regular basis. Is that the case?

 

[Red elephant]

From reading over the years on TUG, I have been under the impression that many people buy at WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs as opposed to actually staying there on a regular basis. Is that the case?

That’s the impression I got here too after doing some reading but then again this is a small group of owners.

 

[ocdb8r]

From reading over the years on TUG, I have been under the impression that many people buy at WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs as opposed to actually staying there on a regular basis. Is that the case?

I think you should look at it slightly differently - in almost ALL of the systems, TUGGERS gravitate toward those ownerships with the lowest annual costs for maximum flexibility. With Vistana, WKV has been an easy standout as it's been the lowest annual cost for a "mandatory" week...and Vistana has been a unique system in the relative equality in staroptions across weeks (regardless of location).

You see a similar trend in the HGVC forum, with certain of the Vegas weeks being repeatedly discussed. Although, over time, HGVC has moved away from what was relative equality in HGVC points across most resorts.

In the 90's and early 2000's on the trading side (II/RCI) there was an obsession with various South African resorts which offered relatively high trade power and low annual fees.

So, in short, I don't think there's necessary "many" people buying WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs, but rather many TUGGERS.

 

[CPNY]

So, in short, I don't think there's necessary "many" people buying WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs, but rather many TUGGERS.

Very true! Although it’s starting to become more common knowledge in many of the Facebook groups as well.

 

[CPNY]

From reading over the years on TUG, I have been under the impression that many people buy at WKV because the MFs are low and they use it for SOs as opposed to actually staying there on a regular basis. Is that the case?

Around here that is the case, but another benefit of owning WKV is renting. A good spring break week will rent well above MF. So, if the VSN changes in the future and the SO usability isn’t there, WKV owners will still be able to rent for a nice profit.

 

[carpie99]

I believe that a 1 bedroom platinum unit at WKV is slated to get 2150 DP points.

I look at the Marriott point chart, and personally, I am excited about the possibilities. I have no idea what the availability would be like but I have been very, very good at adapting to travel to places where I feel like I am getting the best bang for my buck.

I could definitely see me booking 5 nights during fall break at Crystal Shores for a pittance and then using my HRC ownership to add a couple of nights at Hyatt Coconut Plantation.

I could also see me doing something similar with Newport Coast Villas, Oceana Palms, Ocean Pointe, the HHI resorts, etc.

The biggest factor that remains to be seen is how good availability for less than a week will be for me.

I would plan on traveling during the lowest season that would be possible given the school schedule.

I was told that you can't book less than 7 days without owning at least 4000+ points

 

[carpie99]

I absolutely hear you. It is good to have choices. But when I read about how idiotic Marriott is in giving so few DC points for a week at WKV, it is about whose perspective. I own in both systems and within the MVC DC world, 4050 is a generous sum. With 4050 points, you can book 2 weeks in April at a 2BR in a small resort in Harbour Town in Hilton Head which we love, plus it comes with 10 free golf rounds per week. We still have 150 points to spare after that. Similarly for me, I will continue to use SOs when vacationing at the 2 Vistana resorts each year. It is much more cost effective than using DCs to book these Vistana resorts. However, if we decide that we need more DC points and that we would like to skip Vistana resorts for a year or 2, then we will elect DC points.

What courses do you get the 10 free golf rounds?

 

[liongate88]

Around here that is the case, but another benefit of owning WKV is renting. A good spring break week will rent well above MF. So, if the VSN changes in the future and the SO usability isn’t there, WKV owners will still be able to rent for a nice profit.

So, would there be a very good chance you wont be able to use SO after the merge for all Mandatory resorts? Is there any legal implication if they do this or this is a benefit they just can take away anytime.


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[jabberwocky]

Around here that is the case, but another benefit of owning WKV is renting. A good spring break week will rent well above MF. So, if the VSN changes in the future and the SO usability isn’t there, WKV owners will still be able to rent for a nice profit.

And we shouldn't forget that it is a really nice resort to stay at as an owner.

 

[CPNY]

So, would there be a very good chance you wont be able to use SO after the merge for all Mandatory resorts? Is there any legal implication if they do this or this is a benefit they just can take away anytime.


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I believe they can make any changes they want at any time they want. I could be wrong on that, but I’m sure there is always a way! I doubt they would drastically change the VSN even if they could. It would turn off many owners. They make most of their money on existing owners.

 

[CPNY]

And we shouldn't forget that it is a really nice resort to stay at as an owner.

You’re right. I should have added that tidbit in.

 

[VacationForever]

What courses do you get the 10 free golf rounds?

It is called Heritage Golf Collection. Most owners stay there and not trade out their weeks because their MF pay for the included golf rounds.

 

[carpie99]

It is called Heritage Golf Collection. Most owners stay there and not trade out their weeks because their MF pay for the included golf rounds.

Sorry ... 10 free rounds per week of accommodations? Any costs at all at the course? I just got back from a week at SurfWatch ... I am very interested in this

 

[dioxide45]

Sorry ... 10 free rounds per week of accommodations? Any costs at all at the course? I just got back from a week at SurfWatch ... I am very interested in this

Search for "Heritage" in the Marriott forum and you should see a number of threads on the topic. 10 rounds of golf per villa (7 night stay). No charges and cart is also free. I don't have a list of courses that are included. Apparently the list of courses has changed over the years and the courses included now aren't as good as those in the past.