CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[VacationForever]

Generous? I see that Marriott's Canyon Villas in Phoenix is about the same valuation. The chart shows it costs 4,175 DP to trade to a 2-bed during its highest season. I've been to this resort and given the choice I would rather go to WKV (especially considering the recent access rights limitations to the JW pool area). Even so, this means that Marriott is equating MCV with WKV. Does that mean 4050 DPs is generous? It just seems it's what they've already allocated for a week in the Phoenix area. But I should ask the question - how many DPs does a premium 2-bed week at MCV have for use? Is it the same 4050 as they are offering WKV?

Harbour Club at Harbour Town is 1,725 for a 2-bed per week. While I don't currently see April weeks available in II for this resort in exchange for my SDO, I do see other months. So, it's not inconceivable that this resort can be reserved for an affordable price by simply using II. Of course, 1,725:4,050 would be a similar cost to a 1-bed SDO with exchange fees. So all things being equal, with no enrollment fee, I would agree this would be a good use of the DPs, as long as that wasn't a year you wanted to go to Hawaii using SOs.



It sounds like you fit the profile for a good Marriott DP customer.

Of course. I love owning Marriott and Vistana. Regarding the question of Canyon Villas, owners of platinum 2BR week get 2,950 DC points.

I am not referring to Harbour Club. I would not stay at Harbour Club. Heritage Club requires 1,950 DC points to book in April. The 10 rounds of free golf is worth $1K as 3 of us play golf during the week.

 

[remowidget]

I absolutely hear you. It is good to have choices. But when I read about how idiotic Marriott is in giving so few DC points for a week at WKV, it is about whose perspective. I own in both systems and within the MVC DC world, 4050 is a generous sum. With 4050 points, you can book 2 weeks in April at a 2BR in a small resort in Harbour Town in Hilton Head which we love, plus it comes with 10 free golf rounds per week. We still have 150 points to spare after that. Similarly for me, I will continue to use SOs when vacationing at the 2 Vistana resorts each year. It is much more cost effective than using DCs to book these Vistana resorts. However, if we decide that we need more DC points and that we would like to skip Vistana resorts for a year or 2, then we will elect DC points.

Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?

 

[VacationForever]

Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?

Huh? In the SO world, your 148100 SO from WKV world will get you a 2BR in Hawaii at a Westin, with ocean front/view costing more. If it does not work for you in the DC world, then don't elect your Vistana week. You get that choice every year. I have no interest in going back to Westin properties in Hawaii so it is a moot point for me.

 

[remowidget]

Huh? In the SO world, your 148100 SO from WKV world will get you a 2BR in Hawaii at a Westin, with ocean front/view costing more. If it does not work for you in the DC world, then don't elect your Vistana week. You get that choice every year. I have no interest in going back to Westin properties in Hawaii so it is a moot point for me.

But when I read about how idiotic Marriott is in giving so few DC points for a week at WKV

Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?

?? Actually, I own Lagunamar. I would think that conversion to DC would be based upon how many Staroptions you have. It sounded to me like you had the same staroptions but getting less in DC transfer. Is your platinum 2 bedroom 148,100 staroptions? I would think if it is less staroptions, they would give you less DC points if you trade. It doesn't make sense that they would revalue all of the properties.

Maybe I'm lost in space about what you were saying.

 

[VacationForever]

Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?

?? Actually, I own Lagunamar. I would think that conversion to DC would be based upon how many Staroptions you have. It sounded to me like you had the same staroptions but getting less in DC transfer. Is your platinum 2 bedroom 148,100 staroptions? I would think if it is less staroptions, they would give you less DC points if you trade. It doesn't make sense that they would revalue all of the properties.

Maybe I'm lost in space about what you were saying.

Other than Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex and Aventuras Flex, each week and season will get a different conversion. Star Options mean nothing in their conversion. If you own at SVV or WKV and the intent is to stay at Westin in Hawaii using SOs, then you should remain in VSN and not even bother with MVC DC program. If your Westin Lagunamar comes with SOs, then if you want to use SOs to book at other VSN resorts, nothing has changed. I see it as having choice and I get to pick and choose what I want to do each year. For instance, I own weeks and points in MVC and most of the time I deposit my weeks into II. I use points for hard to book places where we want to go.

 

[tschwa2]

Are you getting less DC points for 148100 staroptions at WKV than Hawaii is getting?

?? Actually, I own Lagunamar. I would think that conversion to DC would be based upon how many Staroptions you have. It sounded to me like you had the same staroptions but getting less in DC transfer. Is your platinum 2 bedroom 148,100 staroptions? I would think if it is less staroptions, they would give you less DC points if you trade. It doesn't make sense that they would revalue all of the properties.

Maybe I'm lost in space about what you were saying.

But that is what they will likely do. A true platinum SDO is not going to get the same DP's as an Hawaii ocean view and even an ocean view hawaii will get more than an Island view even though they are all worth 148,100 points. I doubt a summer Harborside will get the same as a 2 BR platinum SVV even though they both get 95,700 points.

 

[remowidget]

But that is what they will likely do. A true platinum SDO is not going to get the same DP's as an Hawaii ocean view and even an ocean view hawaii will get more than an Island view even though they are all worth 148,100 points. I doubt a summer Harborside will get the same as a 2 BR platinum SVV even though they both get 95,700 points.

I think I understand where the discussion is going now. Thanks.

 

[Mroze]

I think I understand where the discussion is going now. Thanks.

We own WLR & WKV so those #'s are exact. However, the #'s for Hawaii are approximates.
Based on the posts earlier in this thread we expect.

• WLR-2BR-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] = 4950-DCP
• WKV-2BR-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] = 4050-DCP
• HAWAII-2BR-ISLAND-VIEW [148.1K-SO] = ~7500-DCP
• HAWAII-2BR-OCEAN-VIEW/FRONT [176K-SO] = ~8500-DCP

 

[Markus]

We will be at WKORVN in five weeks and I was considering a presentation to learn what I can learn. But it is painfully obvious that too many of the "facts" given at these presentations are out-and-out lies offered as scare tactics to sell rather than an introduction to the new system. So why bother?

I would love to give Marriott some feedback (such as its idiocy in thinking the owner of a Kierland platinum+ week would elect points if they would receive only 4050 points -- and why should I bother to enroll in DC given that fact), but it's not worth the effort or vacation time in that I will learn nothing of value in exchange.

So thank you for posting this. It saved me sitting through a presentation.

I wish I had not gone either. We were with 2 other couples and I called out a salesman that was with my friends. He was trying to get them to trade their Platinum plus week at Kierland for Sheraton Flex. He was claiming the Mfs on a 148,100 Sheraton Flex were lower than those if the 148,100 Kierland week! They are actually $1,000 higher per year.

 

[Ken555]

I wish I had not gone either. We were with 2 other couples and I called out a salesman that was with my friends. He was trying to get them to trade their Platinum plus week at Kierland for Sheraton Flex. He was claiming the Mfs on a 148,100 Sheraton Flex were lower than those if the 148,100 Kierland week! They are actually $1,000 higher per year.

Yet another example of why I call them all sales weasels. But, someone needs to pay retail! (It just shouldn't be anyone smart enough to spend time on TUG and do their research).

 

[CPNY]

Yet another example of why I call them all sales weasels. But, someone needs to pay retail! (It just shouldn't be anyone smart enough to spend time on TUG and do their research).

I wish I had not gone either. We were with 2 other couples and I called out a salesman that was with my friends. He was trying to get them to trade their Platinum plus week at Kierland for Sheraton Flex. He was claiming the Mfs on a 148,100 Sheraton Flex were lower than those if the 148,100 Kierland week! They are actually $1,000 higher per year.

Wow. I wish you got their name, maybe we should start a sales rep hall of shame and start listing their lies along with their names on TUG and Facebook…l

 

[DavidnRobin]

Why exchange WKV Plat for DCP when I can use WKV for Maui (or WSJ, or WLR, or…) as a SO exchange relatively easy since we don’t travel during ‘High’ season?

In my last 2 visits to WKORV (Sept 2021 and Sept 2019) - I used 81K WKV SOs and was ‘surprised and delighted’ to get a 1Bd OF villa (worth 95.7K SOs). The value of having the #1 Timestamp I assume (or they just love me?).

I don’t expect this to happen again, but I still can get a 1Bd in Maui.

Why would I transfer WKV Plat to DCP?
What does the equivalent get me in MVC?

Plus, I also rent WKV Plat - but apparently need to charge more - $2800!!! Yikes! I only charged $2300 for 2022. No wonder it rented so quickly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mroze]

Plus, I also rent WKV Plat - but apparently need to charge more - $2800!!! Yikes! I only charged $2300 for 2022. No wonder it rented so quickly.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To be exact, we rented 3 x Large-1BR for $2796 and 1 x Large-1BR for $3146 [Super-Bowl-Week: FEB-05].
Rented 2 x 1BR-Small for $2496 & the rest for $2346.

Over the last few years have noticed a pattern that the FEB-Weeks [and few APR-Weeks] go faster and for higher asking.
Tips

• The consensus is that MAR is Peak, which results in high-supply which in-turn it drives prices down.
  • So, I adapted and moved to reserving FEB/APR where the supply is close to [me alone] and people pay for what's available.
• Verified & Protected: These weeks go faster and command a higher price.
  • When someone is willing to spend this kind of money [a year in advance], they are willing to pay a little more for peace of mind.
• Repeat-Customers: I am very flexible and even make late changes if possible for no cost.
  • For 2022, one realty company rented 8 x Weeks. They have already rented 4 for 2023 and pay upfront.
  • Since we trust each other, they save money [avoid RedWeek fees] by drafting a custom contract.
  • Thus, these are being rented for more than what I list them.

Prices have risen quite dramatically from the COVID-Lows of ~$10K [148.1K] where we picked up a few. Wish we had picked up a few more.

 

[TravelTime]

We will be at WKORVN in five weeks and I was considering a presentation to learn what I can learn. But it is painfully obvious that too many of the "facts" given at these presentations are out-and-out lies offered as scare tactics to sell rather than an introduction to the new system. So why bother?

I would love to give Marriott some feedback (such as its idiocy in thinking the owner of a Kierland platinum+ week would elect points if they would receive only 4050 points -- and why should I bother to enroll in DC given that fact), but it's not worth the effort or vacation time in that I will learn nothing of value in exchange.

So thank you for posting this. It saved me sitting through a presentation.

If you want access to all the resorts in MVC, then converting to DPs makes sense. I think 4050 is probably a lot more than you will get. Who told you 4050 DPs?

 

[DanCali]

As someone who owns at MVC and Vistana, 4050 DC points for WKV is actually quite generous, more than most MVC platinum weeks, other than Hawaii resorts. Most MVC platinum weeks get somewhere between 2500 to 3500.

Generous? I see that Marriott's Canyon Villas in Phoenix is about the same valuation. The chart shows it costs 4,175 DP to trade to a 2-bed during its highest season. I've been to this resort and given the choice I would rather go to WKV (especially considering the recent access rights limitations to the JW pool area). Even so, this means that Marriott is equating MCV with WKV. Does that mean 4050 DPs is generous? It just seems it's what they've already allocated for a week in the Phoenix area. But I should ask the question - how many DPs does a premium 2-bed week at MCV have for use? Is it the same 4050 as they are offering WKV?

I actually agree that the allotment to WKV 2BR Plat is relatively generous in Marriott terms. For Canyon Villas Platinum 2BR they actually allot 2950 points but the Platinum seasons are very different. WKV is 1-21, 51-52 while Canyon Villas is 1-17 and 41-51. MCV has week 52 as Platinum Plus which converts to 3900. So it's not exactly a fair comparison since MCV has some lower demand weeks in the Fall part of their Platinum season that reduce the conversion value. I can also compare to my NCV Platinum weeks that covert to 3475. Those have a similar problem with a Platinum season that is 7 months long but only July and August are in extremely high demand. But those summer weeks rent for $3200+ (the value of about 4600+ points in the rental market)

So even if 4050 for WKV is relatively generous in Marriott terms, that doesn't mean it's a good option for owners when compared to other alternatives like trading in VSN or renting weeks. If I wanted to go Hawaii, I'd first try VSN before the DC. And if I wanted go to a different Marriott resort and I have a reservation at WKV or NCV that I can rent for substantially more than the value of the points they convert to, I just won't convert to points. Having the VSN option is nice but if availability at 8 months is limited or I want to expend my options to resorts not in VSN, the rental market is the ultimate equalizer...

 

[TravelTime]

Whatever the MVC chart shows, assume the actual amount your Vistana week will get is approx 1000 points less. I know this will sound terrible to Vistana owners. I am fine with this conversion because I like the flexibility of going many places and having more options than just what’s available with the VSN. However for folks who are not happy, you can continue staying where you own or using SOs. No loss.

 

[TravelTime]

Another thing is that the new MVC charts will be based on the location and not on SO value. The more desirable the location, the more DPs you will get. Like I said, assume you will get a conversion rate of about 1000 DPs less for whatever the comparable location you own in the MVC system.

 

[Ken555]

I actually agree that the allotment to WKV 2BR Plat is relatively generous in Marriott terms. For Canyon Villas Platinum 2BR they actually allot 2950 points but the Platinum seasons are very different.

Good info.

So even if 4050 for WKV is relatively generous in Marriott terms, that doesn't mean it's a good option for owners when compared to other alternatives like trading in VSN or renting weeks. If I wanted to go Hawaii, I'd first try VSN before the DC. And if I wanted go to a different Marriott resort and I have a reservation at WKV or NCV that I can rent for substantially more than the value of the points they convert to, I just won't convert to points. Having the VSN option is nice but if availability at 8 months is limited or I want to expend my options to resorts not in VSN, the rental market is the ultimate equalizer...

Since 2006 I have been able to use SOs to get Hawaii when I wanted - but my schedule is flexible.

Still, not being able to trade as I have for years using DPs and the same ownership week is unfortunate. It seems that Marriott has been able to charge very high rates for Hawaii relative to the rest of their network. In comparison, I know that HGVC has more reasonable rates for their Hawaii resorts. Is this high rate isolated to Marriott (and perhaps Hyatt)? I don’t know as much about these other networks, but I keep returning to the fact that my WKV week has been able to get Hawaii for a very long time without issue, and now it won’t.

I wonder if those of you who use both DPs and SOs also exchange via II? Perhaps the traditional exchange method and the value from it is missing from some of these calculations. For instance, I have three Maui weeks at WKORV-N later this year in exchange for my SDO weeks via II.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DanCali]

Another thing is that the new MVC charts will be based on the location and not on SO value. The more desirable the location, the more DPs you will get...

That's exactly the point that people are upset about. At the launch of the DC in 2010 Marriott valued some Hawaii resorts disproportionately higher compared with other locations. Not surprisingly, they are doing the same with Vistana resorts. But it's not always justified.

I think you are implying that Maui is a much more desirable location than other Hawaii Islands, the continental US in general, and the desert specifically (at least based on how DC points were allotted). I might even agree with you in some cases - but I can also tell you that Spring in Scottsdale in highly desirable to plenty of people.

Marriott itself owns in many locations and rent their resorts continuously - they know better than all of us. And if the desert is so undesirable, why are they charging the rates below for a HOTEL ROOM for Spring Break in Scottsdale? Seems in the ballpark to Spring Break rates for a hotel room in Hawaii. You also kind of get similar results by comparing (timeshare) rental rates on RedWeek. Yet somehow when it comes to DC points WKV Platinum is worth 60% less than WKORV Platinum?

 

[Venter]

If I remember correctly at the roll out of DC some Tuggers worked out that the points were actually related to the original sales price.

 

[jabberwocky]

Still, not being able to trade as I have for years using DPs and the same ownership week is unfortunate. It seems that Marriott has been able to charge very high rates for Hawaii relative to the rest of their network. In comparison, I know that HGVC has more reasonable rates for their Hawaii resorts. Is this high rate isolated to Marriott (and perhaps Hyatt)? I don’t know as much about these other networks, but I keep returning to the fact that my WKV week has been able to get Hawaii for a very long time without issue, and now it won’t.

I wonder if those of you who use both DPs and SOs also exchange via II? Perhaps the traditional exchange method and the value from it is missing from some of these calculations. For instance, I have three Maui weeks at WKORV-N later this year in exchange for my SDO weeks via II.

Vistana and Hilton have fairly simple points charts with wide seasons (even the underlying MVC weeks system has simple seasonal charts if you just look at the weeks themselves rather than the points). This leaves some of the "surplus" benefit of booking a high-demand week to remain with the TS owners, but the corresponding downside to this is you may have other times where it may be more costly if you stay primarily in the off-season.

In my view, Marriott takes the approach that they want to retain any surplus that would otherwise go to the owners. You can get a high-demand week, but you're going to pay for it with high points values. Sure you can pay less to stay in low periods, but the skim from not being able to book back into your deeded week ensures Marriott "wins" on average.

 

[VacationForever]

If I remember correctly at the roll out of DC some Tuggers worked out that the points were actually related to the original sales price.

I heve not heard this one before but it makes sense. I was not even on TUG nor owned Marriott timeshare when DC was rolled out in 2010. But when I did become interested in buying into Marriott with all the sightings which I wished I could trade into, I looked at the DC chart and suspected that original developer sale prices had something to do with DC point allotment. For instance, in Palm Desert area, Desert Springs were older and cheaper than Shadow Ridge when first sold by the developer, but is superior in size and quality of finish and yet it has slightly lower DC allotment when compared to Shadow Ridge.

 

[TravelTime]

That's exactly the point that people are upset about. At the launch of the DC in 2010 Marriott valued some Hawaii resorts disproportionately higher compared with other locations. Not surprisingly, they are doing the same with Vistana resorts. But it's not always justified.

I think you are implying that Maui is a much more desirable location than other Hawaii Islands, the continental US in general, and the desert specifically (at least based on how DC points were allotted). I might even agree with you in some cases - but I can also tell you that Spring in Scottsdale in highly desirable to plenty of people.

Marriott itself owns in many locations and rent their resorts continuously - they know better than all of us. And if the desert is so undesirable, why are they charging the rates below for a HOTEL ROOM for Spring Break in Scottsdale? Seems in the ballpark to Spring Break rates for a hotel room in Hawaii. You also kind of get similar results by comparing (timeshare) rental rates on RedWeek. Yet somehow when it comes to DC points WKV Platinum is worth 60% less than WKORV Platinum?

View attachment 52130

View attachment 52131

Perhaps for March but the rest of that season, it can be 1/3 to double or more to stay at Westin Maui vs Westin Scottsdale. MVC is not going to value its timeshares based on one month.

I was also not thinking of just platinum season in the desert when I made my comments. I was thinking across the year that Maui is desirable while the desert is not.

BTW, Maui is not exactly my favorite place. It is my least favorite Hawaiian island even though I own a week there. Hawaii is not even my favorite place in the world either. It’s convenient from CA so that is why we go. But we go many other places all over the world.

 

[DanCali]

MVC is not going to value its timeshares based on one month.

Yes, but whatever method they use it's unrelated to rental values. Rental value is a real alternative for owners.

Other have suggested it may be developer price. Maybe, maybe not... But that's really a "sunk cost" and has nothing to do with what owners elect going forward.

Perhaps for March but the rest of that season, it can be 1/3 to double or more to stay at Westin Maui vs Westin Scottsdale.

And as others pointed out WKV rents quite well in weeks outside of March as well.

WKV Platinum season is 1-21, 51-52. You can do the same exercise for January, February and April. Scottsdale seems 15%-20% less on average. The one exception (not below) is New Year's week where Maui is indeed double. But just week 52 - they are again similar for week 51.

I went with hotels because there is no availability on their website for the timeshare. And I went with a comparison as close as I could - Westin vs Westin, which is the analogous for the timeshare comparison (WKV vs WKORV). Looks like Marriott rents Scottsdale hotels for 15%-20% less than Maui but values it's timeshares at ~50% less. Why should owners play along?

 

[DanCali]

The ironic thing that makes this appear worse than it is, is that MVC was applying concepts similar from their hotel pricing when they list the separate units composing a lockoff unit as more valuable than the lockoff in its entirety. It's consistent with the DC, but this really did not exist in the Vistana world - and with WKV in particular.

(1) in Vistana MFs (+tax) for small 1BR: ~$660; MFs for large 1BR: ~$1060; MFs for 2BR lockoff: ~$1720
So while the smaller 1BR has some advantage over the larger 1BR in Staroptions/MF ratio (relative MF difference maybe reflecting real operating costs), the 2BR lockoff MFs adds up to the two units

(2) I believe purchase price from the developer for the 2BR lockoff was approximately the same as buying the two separate units

(3) The pre-covid resale purchase prices of the two separate units was about the same as buying the 2BR lockoff (for Platinum season around $6K for small 1BR, 8K for large 1BR, and $14K for the 2BR). Probably harder to see with Gold and Silver seasons where some of the resale weeks are much less desirable.

(4) The Staroptions of the small (67.1K) and the large (81K) sum up to the 2BR (148.1K)

(5) The rental market prices for the small 1BR and the large 1BR more or less sum up to the rental price of the 2BR lockoff (probably having to do with how Vistana owners themselves view the value of the separate or combined units given (1)-(4) above).

But now it looks like someone who owns a small 1BR and a large 1BR can trade for 4750(?) points while the 2BR lockoff gets 4050. That's a meaningful difference. It would not be worth mentioning if they let owners of a 2BR lockoff exchange just one side (like you can do with VSN and II) - but that still remains to be seen. I don't believe they allow that with MVC lockoff units.