CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[regatta333]

Are the consolidated Club dues charged on a per week basis or just per account.?

 

[Mroze]

Are the consolidated Club dues charged on a per week basis or just per account.?

Consolidated fees are Per-Account irrespective of the #-Contracts within an account.

 

[CPNY]

Ok so going through governing documents I would love some clarification on this stuff and to hear your thoughts. I see vistana East vacation club consists of Bella/Key West, HRA, and WSJ. Each of these has their own verbiage of being part of the club. Here is what it says for Key West SVV: I assume this is just the “mandatory” aspect.

“Key West. Key West will be sold on a fee title basis. The fee simple title to the Key West property will be submitted to the condominium form of ownership. Units in Key West are being sold subject to a vacation ownership plan. Under the Club Resort vacation ownership plan for Key West, fee title to a VOI, consisting of an undivided 1/52nd interest in the Owner's Unit as tenant in common with the other Owners of VOIs in that Unit, is conveyed to a Purchaser. A Unit is committed to the Club Resort vacation ownership plan on the recording by the Developer of the first deed to a VOI in such Unit, which first deed will also designate the specific VOI being conveyed in that Unit. Title to VOIs will be transferred to Purchasers by a special warranty deed pursuant to the terms of a purchase agreement.
As described above and as set forth in the Club Resort Affiliation Agreement for Key West, membership in the Club is an inseparable part of each Club Resort VOI in Key West. Therefore, when a Purchaser acquires a Club Resort VOI in Key West, the Purchaser automatically becomes a Club Member.”

Here is what is said regarding the Club, which is different than the network. The network which is the VSN is just an exchange. Now that there will be another exchange I assume that mandatory club members must have access to that exchange as well? Here is what it says:

“The Club currently is affiliated with the Vistana Signature Network, an exchange program under Florida law, pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement. Not all of the Network Resorts are Club Resorts. At Club Resorts, all owners are required to be Club Members. Only the Club Resorts are component sites of the Club multisite vacation ownership plan under Florida law. Subject to availability and pursuant to the Network Rules for the Vistana East Vacation Club, all Network Members will have the opportunity to reserve accommodations and related facilities located at their Home Resort and other Network Resorts, if any, that are affiliated with the Network from time to time.
Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement for the Club, Club Operator also has contracted with Network Operator for Network Operator to perform certain obligations and duties of Club Operator under each Club Affiliation Agreement, including the operation of the reservation system for the Club.”

Last but not least, Does this give MVW the right to take units from the VSN to place into the DC exchange? does this silence the “MVW can’t take inventory from the VSN and put it into the DCE” crowd? Or is this for interval bulk deposits? It could be a case for funding the DCE considering the DCE is an external exchange. ITS about to get real if that’s the case. If the DCE is not considered an external exchange and is a network exchange like the VSN, how could they keep club members out of converting?

“d. Network Float Period. The Network Float Period begins eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day for a given Vacation Period and ends sixty (60) days prior to the Check-in Day. It follows the Home Resort Reservation Period for a given Vacation Period and precedes the Network Options Period. During the Network Float Period, all Network Members must compete with other Network Members for reservations on a first-come, first-served basis for a reservation for any available Vacation Period that the Network Member has sufficient StarOptions to reserve. Due to the automatic reservation of Reserved Periods as described in Section 4.2.a(2), the availability of such Vacation Periods may be limited.
Network Members also will compete with Network Operator for reservations during the Network Float Period with respect to Network Operator's rights to make reservations for bulk banking for external exchange and anticipating Network Member demand to access the Starwood Preferred Guest Program as discussed above.”

 

[dioxide45]

Ok so going through governing documents I would love some clarification on this stuff and to hear your thoughts. I see vistana East vacation club consists of Bella/Key West, HRA, and WSJ. Each of these has their own verbiage of being part of the club. Here is what it says for Key West SVV: I assume this is just the “mandatory” aspect.

“Key West. Key West will be sold on a fee title basis. The fee simple title to the Key West property will be submitted to the condominium form of ownership. Units in Key West are being sold subject to a vacation ownership plan. Under the Club Resort vacation ownership plan for Key West, fee title to a VOI, consisting of an undivided 1/52nd interest in the Owner's Unit as tenant in common with the other Owners of VOIs in that Unit, is conveyed to a Purchaser. A Unit is committed to the Club Resort vacation ownership plan on the recording by the Developer of the first deed to a VOI in such Unit, which first deed will also designate the specific VOI being conveyed in that Unit. Title to VOIs will be transferred to Purchasers by a special warranty deed pursuant to the terms of a purchase agreement.
As described above and as set forth in the Club Resort Affiliation Agreement for Key West, membership in the Club is an inseparable part of each Club Resort VOI in Key West. Therefore, when a Purchaser acquires a Club Resort VOI in Key West, the Purchaser automatically becomes a Club Member.”

Here is what is said regarding the Club, which is different than the network. The network which is the VSN is just an exchange. Now that there will be another exchange I assume that mandatory club members must have access to that exchange as well? Here is what it says:

“The Club currently is affiliated with the Vistana Signature Network, an exchange program under Florida law, pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement. Not all of the Network Resorts are Club Resorts. At Club Resorts, all owners are required to be Club Members. Only the Club Resorts are component sites of the Club multisite vacation ownership plan under Florida law. Subject to availability and pursuant to the Network Rules for the Vistana East Vacation Club, all Network Members will have the opportunity to reserve accommodations and related facilities located at their Home Resort and other Network Resorts, if any, that are affiliated with the Network from time to time.
Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement for the Club, Club Operator also has contracted with Network Operator for Network Operator to perform certain obligations and duties of Club Operator under each Club Affiliation Agreement, including the operation of the reservation system for the Club.”

Last but not least, Does this give MVW the right to take units from the VSN to place into the DC exchange? does this silence the “MVW can’t take inventory from the VSN and put it into the DCE” crowd? Or is this for interval bulk deposits? It could be a case for funding the DCE considering the DCE is an external exchange. ITS about to get real if that’s the case. If the DCE is not considered an external exchange and is a network exchange like the VSN, how could they keep club members out of converting?

“d. Network Float Period. The Network Float Period begins eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day for a given Vacation Period and ends sixty (60) days prior to the Check-in Day. It follows the Home Resort Reservation Period for a given Vacation Period and precedes the Network Options Period. During the Network Float Period, all Network Members must compete with other Network Members for reservations on a first-come, first-served basis for a reservation for any available Vacation Period that the Network Member has sufficient StarOptions to reserve. Due to the automatic reservation of Reserved Periods as described in Section 4.2.a(2), the availability of such Vacation Periods may be limited.
Network Members also will compete with Network Operator for reservations during the Network Float Period with respect to Network Operator's rights to make reservations for bulk banking for external exchange and anticipating Network Member demand to access the Starwood Preferred Guest Program as discussed above.”

I think the last item gives them the ability to anticipate how much inventory may be used for external exchange. That may be II, SPG (now Bonvoy) point conversion and perhaps in the future the DC program. If they anticipate 20% utilization for all of these things, they can take that 20% during the Network Float Period. That is of course my non legal interpretation.

 

[CPNY]

I think the last item gives them the ability to anticipate how much inventory may be used for external exchange. That may be II, SPG (now Bonvoy) point conversion and perhaps in the future the DC program. If they anticipate 20% utilization for all of these things, they can take that 20% during the Network Float Period. That is of course my non legal interpretation.

Are there multiple clubs? What benefit if any is there regarding the Vistana East Vacation Club?

 

[DanCali]

How would they eliminate SOs for mandatory resale owners? Wouldn’t that be impossible? They might grandfather in current mandatory resales owners and do this with new resale owners, I assume.

I agree that the fine print might possibly suggest that. However, they will have trouble selling points at $13 per point and 65c MF/point when one can buy Kierland and WKORV weeks as point equivalents at a lower purchase price and substantially lower MFs per point. When you consider it from that point of view, I can't see them letting all mandatory weeks in automatically both now and going forward.

It'd be one thing to do it for all developer and requalified purchases, another to include all current resale mandatory as a one-time "grandfathering", but including all resale mandatory going forward kills their sales... - there is no conceivable way that would happen. Convincing resale owners to pay $30K+ for DC points (that they buy for $2/point at ROFR) to allow then enroll resale weeks is a lucrative business.

 

[Venter]

'Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement'. To me not being qualified in legalese this means that the agreement could also be revoked or that if there is a new 'network' that a new agreement will have to be made. Nothing says that it must be incorporated.

 

[daviator]

'Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement'. To me not being qualified in legalese this means that the agreement could also be revoked or that if there is a new 'network' that a new agreement will have to be made. Nothing says that it must be incorporated.

Yes, the devil's in the details, and one of the key details is what is in that “Network Affiliation Agreement”, who are the signatories to that agreement, and under what circumstances can it be changed? Is this an agreement between the various VOAs at the properties? Or between Vistana and each property? Did changes to this need to be approved by each property's VOA?

The problem for us may be that the whole VSN scheme is built on a web of essentially internal contracts which owners don’t get to see and which MVW now controls and can possibly modify at will. They can’t change what’s in the deeds, they can’t change what’s in the contracts with existing owners, but they can (probably) change all those internal agreements that lay out the mechanics of the program.

 

[sail27bill]

I own both and am very happy that Marriott and Vistana merged as there are benefits to both systems. Marriott has more resorts and the ability to use DC points to book is easy although very expensive. Vistana has limited resorts but availability to book for a different size, location and number of days at 8 months was what initially sold me on Starwood/Vistana many years ago. Although Vistana had inventory available at 8 months, there wasn't always the 2 bedroom I needed. Interval has been great to help solve this issue with Starwood preference. I have snagged trades that would have cost more options in Vistana.

In terms of "quality" I think it is resort specific. The Westin Maui was gorgeous (we almost bought there) however SBP, SVV and Harborside (the last 2 I own incidentally) the quality I found below Marriott resorts. And I have been to about half of the Marriott resorts in the US. The ability to rent points to me is the best part of owning Marriott. Yes it is expensive but knowing my plans far out is more important as I am locked into the school schedule for the next couple of years.

I bought a limited amount in DC to try the system out and so far it has worked exactly as I hoped. However, the ability to convert all of my ownership to Bonvoy points if I choose to (had to during Covid which was nice as I used for hotel stays) and to get back a week from Interval that I deposited when I decided I wanted the week back was really easy with Vistana. I see no loss with the merger (with the exception of the IT issues) as there is more choice now. To me, I do not believe that SVN will go away for those that own it. Resale mandatory I believe will still have the SVN ability while developer will have both.

I enjoy reading all the different perspectives and the knowledge gained from each of you. Thankful all these years later that I found Tug and this amazing community.

 

[Bill R]

Ok so going through governing documents I would love some clarification on this stuff and to hear your thoughts. I see vistana East vacation club consists of Bella/Key West, HRA, and WSJ. Each of these has their own verbiage of being part of the club. Here is what it says for Key West SVV: I assume this is just the “mandatory” aspect.

“Key West. Key West will be sold on a fee title basis. The fee simple title to the Key West property will be submitted to the condominium form of ownership. Units in Key West are being sold subject to a vacation ownership plan. Under the Club Resort vacation ownership plan for Key West, fee title to a VOI, consisting of an undivided 1/52nd interest in the Owner's Unit as tenant in common with the other Owners of VOIs in that Unit, is conveyed to a Purchaser. A Unit is committed to the Club Resort vacation ownership plan on the recording by the Developer of the first deed to a VOI in such Unit, which first deed will also designate the specific VOI being conveyed in that Unit. Title to VOIs will be transferred to Purchasers by a special warranty deed pursuant to the terms of a purchase agreement.
As described above and as set forth in the Club Resort Affiliation Agreement for Key West, membership in the Club is an inseparable part of each Club Resort VOI in Key West. Therefore, when a Purchaser acquires a Club Resort VOI in Key West, the Purchaser automatically becomes a Club Member.”

Here is what is said regarding the Club, which is different than the network. The network which is the VSN is just an exchange. Now that there will be another exchange I assume that mandatory club members must have access to that exchange as well? Here is what it says:

“The Club currently is affiliated with the Vistana Signature Network, an exchange program under Florida law, pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement. Not all of the Network Resorts are Club Resorts. At Club Resorts, all owners are required to be Club Members. Only the Club Resorts are component sites of the Club multisite vacation ownership plan under Florida law. Subject to availability and pursuant to the Network Rules for the Vistana East Vacation Club, all Network Members will have the opportunity to reserve accommodations and related facilities located at their Home Resort and other Network Resorts, if any, that are affiliated with the Network from time to time.
Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement for the Club, Club Operator also has contracted with Network Operator for Network Operator to perform certain obligations and duties of Club Operator under each Club Affiliation Agreement, including the operation of the reservation system for the Club.”

Last but not least, Does this give MVW the right to take units from the VSN to place into the DC exchange? does this silence the “MVW can’t take inventory from the VSN and put it into the DCE” crowd? Or is this for interval bulk deposits? It could be a case for funding the DCE considering the DCE is an external exchange. ITS about to get real if that’s the case. If the DCE is not considered an external exchange and is a network exchange like the VSN, how could they keep club members out of converting?

“d. Network Float Period. The Network Float Period begins eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day for a given Vacation Period and ends sixty (60) days prior to the Check-in Day. It follows the Home Resort Reservation Period for a given Vacation Period and precedes the Network Options Period. During the Network Float Period, all Network Members must compete with other Network Members for reservations on a first-come, first-served basis for a reservation for any available Vacation Period that the Network Member has sufficient StarOptions to reserve. Due to the automatic reservation of Reserved Periods as described in Section 4.2.a(2), the availability of such Vacation Periods may be limited.
Network Members also will compete with Network Operator for reservations during the Network Float Period with respect to Network Operator's rights to make reservations for bulk banking for external exchange and anticipating Network Member demand to access the Starwood Preferred Guest Program as discussed above.”

Sorry to be dense, but Key West? In VSN? Now aware of that, don't see it... Don't see that in MVC either.

 

[Mroze]

Sorry to be dense, but Key West? In VSN? Now aware of that, don't see it... Don't see that in MVC either.

I believe Bella & Key West were NAMES of Phases/Sections within the SVV in Orlando and not a location on the map [southern-most point of mainland US].

 

[alexadeparis]

Sorry to be dense, but Key West? In VSN? Now aware of that, don't see it... Don't see that in MVC either.

It’s a phase of the Sheraton Vistana Villages, not the real Key West, don’t get excited.

that having been said, I have been looking over the picture of the paper again that I posted last week, and the sales person had whited out the section that said “VSE Enrolled” on my unqualified resale, (the one where they hand wrote in “resale”) but in the next column entitled “VSE enroll eligible” they didn’t white out the “Y”. I feel like the whited out column was also a “Y” and that could be the key as to whether or not the resale will be pulled into the MVC enrollment also. The only reason I can think of to white that particular column out was to then tell me that one needed to be retro’d into VSN to be eligible to go to MVC, when it probably really doesn’t. Thoughts? I can post the photo of the ENTIRE sheet but it may be a bit blurry.

 

[Eric B]

It’s a phase of the Sheraton Vistana Villages, not the real Key West, don’t get excited.

that having been said, I have been looking over the picture of the paper again that I posted last week, and the sales person had whited out the section that said “VSE Enrolled” on my unqualified resale, (the one where they hand wrote in “resale”) but in the next column entitled “VSE enroll eligible” they didn’t white out the “Y”. I feel like the whited out column was also a “Y” and that could be the key as to whether or not the resale will be pulled into the MVC enrollment also. The only reason I can think of to white that particular column out was to then tell me that one needed to be retro’d into VSN to be eligible to go to MVC, when it probably really doesn’t. Thoughts? I can post the photo of the ENTIRE sheet but it may be a bit blurry.

The white out on that one was the one in the third line, right? I had noticed that and mentioned it in a post; completely agree with your interpretation, though I’m waiting for official information about the program to come out, of course.

 

[alexadeparis]

The white out on that one was the one in the third line, right? I had noticed that and mentioned it in a post; completely agree with your interpretation, though I’m waiting for official information about the program to come out, of course.

Yes, exactly, the third line. I’m willing to wait and see on that one, worst case, if that one can’t come in for free or low cost, I will always have guaranteed SO to use to extend my WSJ trips (because those units aren’t likely to be converted to MVC DC either).

 

[daviator]

It’s a phase of the Sheraton Vistana Villages, not the real Key West, don’t get excited.

that having been said, I have been looking over the picture of the paper again that I posted last week, and the sales person had whited out the section that said “VSE Enrolled” on my unqualified resale, (the one where they hand wrote in “resale”) but in the next column entitled “VSE enroll eligible” they didn’t white out the “Y”. I feel like the whited out column was also a “Y” and that could be the key as to whether or not the resale will be pulled into the MVC enrollment also. The only reason I can think of to white that particular column out was to then tell me that one needed to be retro’d into VSN to be eligible to go to MVC, when it probably really doesn’t. Thoughts? I can post the photo of the ENTIRE sheet but it may be a bit blurry.

I was wondering why they still made “white out” and now I realize that the main market must be lying timeshare sales people…

 

[Eric B]

Yes, exactly, the third line. I’m willing to wait and see on that one, worst case, if that one can’t come in for free or low cost, I will always have guaranteed SO to use to extend my WSJ trips (because those units aren’t likely to be converted to MVC DC either).

Best case, though, is that it counts towards what tier you wind up being, while you still extend your WSJ trips.

 

[CPNY]

It’s a phase of the Sheraton Vistana Villages, not the real Key West, don’t get excited.

that having been said, I have been looking over the picture of the paper again that I posted last week, and the sales person had whited out the section that said “VSE Enrolled” on my unqualified resale, (the one where they hand wrote in “resale”) but in the next column entitled “VSE enroll eligible” they didn’t white out the “Y”. I feel like the whited out column was also a “Y” and that could be the key as to whether or not the resale will be pulled into the MVC enrollment also. The only reason I can think of to white that particular column out was to then tell me that one needed to be retro’d into VSN to be eligible to go to MVC, when it probably really doesn’t. Thoughts? I can post the photo of the ENTIRE sheet but it may be a bit blurry.

As someone who photoshops things I saw the little outlines of a box and wondered what was covered up. The skeptic inside of me thought that exact thing you just said but quickly moved on. I noticed it when I went back to your picture before I looked up the governing documents. It’s extremely interesting and if they blocked it out with the intention of selling you more to retro something that doesn’t need to be retro is an all new low. Pathetic. We shall see.

 

[robertk2012]

The whole "soft" release is just to ambiguously sell more without making any real commitments to the new program. If they feel like Mandatory resorts are too much of a bargain they can always start buying them up themselves.

 

[WatsonC2]

Re whether resale resorts will be eligible to pay the fee to use Marriott is an interesting question but a lever they could likely flip at will (ie start out requiring only retro'd weeks to do it unless of course the new program goes over like a lead ballon and they need to allow non-retro'd resales, perhaps by resort to do it). My guess is it will start out somewhat restrictive and open up if they don't get the inventory they seek.

 

[jabberwocky]

Yes, exactly, the third line. I’m willing to wait and see on that one, worst case, if that one can’t come in for free or low cost, I will always have guaranteed SO to use to extend my WSJ trips (because those units aren’t likely to be converted to MVC DC either).

If it was not eligible for VSN that column would have had an “N”. So the only logical inference can be that they did not want you to see the “Y”. Just as a point of comparison - our mandatory resale had a “Y” next to it in that same column.

Whether this means all VSN mandatory weeks will be eligible or not remains to be seen. But for us we didn’t buy to trade that week for something else. We bought it to use.

 

[DanCali]

The whole "soft" release is just to ambiguously sell more without making any real commitments to the new program. If they feel like Mandatory resorts are too much of a bargain they can always start buying them up themselves.

May work for some but there is no ROFR for WKV (and HRA)

 

[dioxide45]

The whole "soft" release is just to ambiguously sell more without making any real commitments to the new program. If they feel like Mandatory resorts are too much of a bargain they can always start buying them up themselves.

I think they have already done a lot of that. Mandatory SVV resale weeks are a lot rarer these days than they were just a few years ago. I think they took a lot of them back through trade ins as they somehow convinced people that Sheraton Flex was a better product.

 

[robertk2012]

May work for some but there is no ROFR for WKV (and HRA)

They can buy whatever they want....

 

[robertk2012]

I think they have already done a lot of that. Mandatory SVV resale weeks are a lot rarer these days than they were just a few years ago. I think they took a lot of them back through trade ins as they somehow convinced people that Sheraton Flex was a better product.

I saw many people just giving them back.

 

[dioxide45]

They can buy whatever they want....

They can, but generally the timeshare companies tend to avoid the wild west of the open timeshare resale market. You simply won't see them out there bidding on timeshares listed on eBay.