CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[Sicnarf]

Am I missing something, can they any VSN owners be enrolled at this time? Are people who buy today immediately eligible to enroll their flex points for next year's usage?

Yes, all developer purchased and authorized resales weeks or flexpoints are automatically enrolled supposedly but we don't know when we can start exchanging yet.

 

[tschwa2]

Yes, all developer purchased and authorized resales weeks or flexpoints are automatically enrolled supposedly but we don't know when we can start exchanging yet.

got it, enrolled but still without access to dc inventory yet or any enhanced interval options.

Oh I wonder if that means someone with a mix of retail and resale will have to pay a separate VSN fee for their non enrolled weeks.

 

[robertk2012]

[Duplicate post deleted - If you aren't interested in this merger, then don't read it, but most Tuggers appreciate having new Info about what's going on. DeniseM]

 

[Mroze]

Will Resale-Non-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?
resale owner will not be able to convert. I am pretty sure mandatory owners will not be able to convert also.”

VSN fee is for Staroption exchange and available to all mandatory units including resale. But unauthorized resales can not be enrolled to the DC program without buying DC or flex points at this time.

As it stands today, VSN-Owners with Mandatory Resale-Units [NON-ENROLLED] are able to participate [have to pay Club-Dues] within the Vistana-System by booking their Home-Resort at 12-Months. Most importantly they can also book any other Vistana-Units [Harborside, Westin St John, Westin Maul] at 8-Months.

This is one reason why Mandatory-Resale units command a premium in the resale market.
This is one reason why Voluntary-Resale units sell for much less than the Mandatory units.

If these owners [Resale + Mandatory + NON-Enrolled] are not permitted to participate in the new DC-System this would be a downgrade to their mandatory units and thus a devaluation in the resale market?

 

[Red elephant]

I have no idea who Denise's contact is - and I'm not asking - but I'd be very surprised to find it's a low-level salesperson or manager. Marriott doesn't easily give up information for public consumption and anyone in the org who decides to do it for themselves is pretty much gone immediately. IMO the info that Denise is sharing is too advanced to be coming from Sales unless it's at the executive level and in conjunction with the product development higher-ups.

Vistana people are lucky to have this contact and to have Denise working with him/her! Marriott people didn't have that until our moderator, DaveM, was able to develop it after the DC rollout - we were hit with this huge shift from Weeks to Points overnight, BAM!, after YEARS of sales speculation and threats, a great deal of which never came to fruition. Enjoy your "soft rollout" period, use it to your advantage to learn as much as you can, and thank Denise every day that she cultivated this contact whoever it is.

And whatever else you do, keep an open mind and listen to your fellow Vistana TUGgers who join whatever this new thing is and then generously share their experience with it. The overall tenor on the TUG Marriott forum at the DC rollout was negative. I mean, very negative! Over the years that's changed and we who are enthusiastic members of the Destination Club have many different reasons why. It has its negatives, of course, but for many of us it's not at all the money-sucking too-confusing worthless scheme that was predicted by many at the outset to fail spectacularly.

Good luck!

What Denise said is exactly what I was told on Friday by my contact. I could not get my sunset bay and coral vista conversions or Nanea because they were being tweaked. WSJ too low and Nanea no difference between OF and resort view. Also soft launch to allow owners to make adjustments.

 

[emeryjre]

As it stands today, VSN-Owners with Mandatory Resale-Units [NON-ENROLLED] are able to participate [have to pay Club-Dues] within the Vistana-System by booking their Home-Resort at 12-Months. Most importantly they can also book any other Vistana-Units [Harborside, Westin St John, Westin Maul] at 8-Months.

This is one reason why Mandatory-Resale units command a premium in the resale market.
This is one reason why Voluntary-Resale units sell for much less than the Mandatory units.

If these owners [Resale + Mandatory + NON-Enrolled] are not permitted to participate in the new DC-System this would be a downgrade to their mandatory units and thus a devaluation in the resale market?

You should probably put IMHO about the valuation until the final points charts come out. Also if a mandatory unit that qualifies to participate goes on the market, it will become a resale and no longer qualify to be in the DC program.

 

[tschwa2]

There was a lot of speculation about Marriott resales before their full official rollout and they didn't want to encourage people to buy resale before the rollout by saying resale would be included. By the time they did announce resale's ability to join it was too late to add additional weeks before the cut off date. This could be the same thing. Not that I would buy anything on speculation at this point, if nothing else Vistana could intentionally drag their feet as to not transfer anything in time. By announcing that resales are not eligible unless retro'ed before gives another tool for sales to use currently and doesn't mean they can't announce something different between now and this summer.

 

[kozykritter]

Why would Westin Riverfront be different than other resorts? If anything I would expect Harborside and WSJ to be different because of different timeshare laws.

Just a guess but both Harborside and Riverfront have unique circumstances in the Vistana system. Harborside is a jointly owned property (my brain says Atlantis is the other owner but don't remember for sure). Riverfront is the only property without Vistana staff on site other than sales people (I used to sell ownership there). All room assignments are actually done out of Orlando based on reservation timestamps. All employees work for East-West Hospitality group which built it, the attached Westin hotel and residences and all of the resort buildings next to it that have been recently developed. Perhaps these unique ownership arrangements and the underlying contracts require some negotiation that will take some time.

 

[tschwa2]

Just a guess but both Harborside and Riverfront have unique circumstances in the Vistana system. Harborside is a jointly owned property (my brain says Atlantis is the other owner but don't remember for sure). Riverfront is the only property without Vistana staff on site other than sales people (I used to sell ownership there). All room assignments are actually done out of Orlando based solely on timestamps. All employees work for East-West Hospitality group which built it, the attached Westin hotel and residences and all of the resort buildings next to it that have been recently developed. Perhaps these unique ownership arrangements require some negotiation that will take some time.

Thanks I did not know that about riverfront.

 

[vikingsholm]

Westin and Sheraton units exchanged to the DC program will be available to all DC owners.

Thanks to you and dioxide for answering my question!

 

[Pathways]

As it stands today, VSN-Owners with Mandatory Resale-Units [NON-ENROLLED] are able to participate [have to pay Club-Dues] within the Vistana-System by booking their Home-Resort at 12-Months. Most importantly they can also book any other Vistana-Units [Harborside, Westin St John, Westin Maul] at 8-Months.

This is one reason why Mandatory-Resale units command a premium in the resale market.
This is one reason why Voluntary-Resale units sell for much less than the Mandatory units.

If these owners [Resale + Mandatory + NON-Enrolled] are not permitted to participate in the new DC-System this would be a downgrade to their mandatory units and thus a devaluation in the resale market?

Since they can't participate today, and there doesn't appear to be any change in how one uses their current ownership, I would say there is no downgrade, and therefore no devaluation.

 

[daviator]

I’ve tried to keep up with this whole thread as well as the accompanying one with the Q&A from the MVC source.

I think you have to take the MVC characterization of things with a grain of salt. There seems to be an assumption that Vistana owners are going to be chomping at the bit to enroll in and use the DC system, and that leads to comments like “Orlando units aren’t going to be worth much” and the like.

People need to remember that, so far as I can tell, there is no change if you want to keep using your unit or trading with VSN as you’ve always done. There may be be some inventory challenges, it’s hard to know at this point, but it looks to me like nothing will really change for those who don’t want to, or can’t, use the DC system.

My ownerships are all developer purchases, so I’ll be fully eligible to participate, but I have little (and perhaps no) interest in doing so. If enrollment is free and doesn’t change anything about my ability to use VSN, I may enroll just to have the option, but I am not chomping at the bit to use any DC resorts and am pretty sure that doing so would reduce the value I’m getting for that year's ownership. Choice is always good and I’m happy to have the choice to access additional resorts, even if they are lower-tier than Westin, but I may never use them.

The one question I have is to whether we will ever see any new VSN resorts, branded with Westin or Sheraton. It seems unlikely that MVW would ever want to develop any more resorts to go in VSN, but it’s possible they might want to develop more Westin properties at some point. (I sort of doubt they’d develop any more Sheraton timeshare properties.) So could we end up with some weirdness of having future Westin or Sheraton properties which are in DC but not VSN? Obviously nobody knows. For now, I think the VSN network is unlikely to grow any further. We were lucky to get a little network growth out of the split of Vistana from Starwood a few years back.

For me, I’d probably pay to stay in a better hotel property rather than vacation in a Marriott-branded timeshare resort; I just don’t think they are that great. So many are bad hotel conversions anyway.

 

[Mroze]

Since they can't participate today, and there doesn't appear to be any change in how one uses their current ownership, I would say there is no downgrade, and therefore no devaluation.

If there is "No Change" in how they participate today, this means that NON-Enrolled Mandatory-Units will have full access to ALL Vistana-Inventory at 8-Months.

 

[Pathways]

People need to remember that, so far as I can tell, there is no change if you want to keep using your unit or trading with VSN as you’ve always done

That's what I see also

If there is "No Change" in how they participate today, this means that NON-Enrolled Mandatory-Units will have full access to ALL Vistana-Inventory at 8-Months.

Correct. All this talk is how will the current owners access the MVC DC program.

 

[jabberwocky]

got it, enrolled but still without access to dc inventory yet or any enhanced interval options.

Oh I wonder if that means someone with a mix of retail and resale will have to pay a separate VSN fee for their non enrolled weeks.

This is what I’m wondering as well. We own:

1) Developer purchased week at a voluntary resort.
2) resale purchased voluntary unit which has been retroed.
3) flex points purchased retail to retro the above resale voluntary unit
4) a mandatory resale unit

1-3 should be eligible to convert to DC, but 4 may not. But then do I have to pay two VSN fees, one for the DC eligible and one for the mandatory VSN? They are all under one II account now - so how would free exchanges work and how would they split them off?

 

[bizaro86]

I have no idea who Denise's contact is - and I'm not asking - but I'd be very surprised to find it's a low-level salesperson or manager. Marriott doesn't easily give up information for public consumption and anyone in the org who decides to do it for themselves is pretty much gone immediately. IMO the info that Denise is sharing is too advanced to be coming from Sales unless it's at the executive level and in conjunction with the product development higher-ups.

Vistana people are lucky to have this contact and to have Denise working with him/her! Marriott people didn't have that until our moderator, DaveM, was able to develop it after the DC rollout - we were hit with this huge shift from Weeks to Points overnight, BAM!, after YEARS of sales speculation and threats, a great deal of which never came to fruition. Enjoy your "soft rollout" period, use it to your advantage to learn as much as you can, and thank Denise every day that she cultivated this contact whoever it is.

And whatever else you do, keep an open mind and listen to your fellow Vistana TUGgers who join whatever this new thing is and then generously share their experience with it. The overall tenor on the TUG Marriott forum at the DC rollout was negative. I mean, very negative! Over the years that's changed and we who are enthusiastic members of the Destination Club have many different reasons why. It has its negatives, of course, but for many of us it's not at all the money-sucking too-confusing worthless scheme that was predicted by many at the outset to fail spectacularly.

Good luck!

I apologize (to Denise especially) if I gave the impression this information wasn't worth having, it certainly is. While Dioxide addressed my perspective extremely well directly below your post, I would just reiterate that it seems exceedingly unlikely this is coming from someone other than sales.

The people designing the program didn't watch training videos for information, they created training videos for salespeople to watch. Other comments "owners are trusting us and buying" are softer indications of a sales focus.

I wasn't saying any of it is wrong, and it does have a ring of truth. Just that it makes sense to read (as always!) critically and consider the incentives of the source as well as other facts and evidence available to you. I'd hate to see people rush into developer retro transactions they subsequently regret.

I'm a pretty strong believer in resale TS, and think if there is any doubt giving a TS developer $10k+ is something to be carefully considered.

 

[Mowogo]

I apologize (to Denise especially) if I gave the impression this information wasn't worth having, it certainly is. While Dioxide addressed my perspective extremely well directly below your post, I would just reiterate that it seems exceedingly unlikely this is coming from someone other than sales.

The people designing the program didn't watch training videos for information, they created training videos for salespeople to watch. Other comments "owners are trusting us and buying" are softer indications of a sales focus.

I wasn't saying any of it is wrong, and it does have a ring of truth. Just that it makes sense to read (as always!) critically and consider the incentives of the source as well as other facts and evidence available to you. I'd hate to see people rush into developer retro transactions they subsequently regret.

I'm a pretty strong believer in resale TS, and think if there is any doubt giving a TS developer $10k+ is something to be carefully considered.

There is definitely a place for resale timeshares, but the trend in the industry has been getting harsher and harsher toward resale owners. The good news is that DC as a system is weirdly friendly toward resale as long as you pay the ”education” fee. As someone that has ownership that would be at Executive based how the ratio works I could see using that method to grow my holdings As it appears that qualified vistana ownerships are treated like enrolled weeks in DC.

 

[DeniseM]

I'm only going to address this once:

My "Source" is very knowledgeable and well-respected in the timeshare community. Anyone who thinks I would "promote" something unethical doesn't know me, or TUG very well. Rude responses will be deleted.

 

[dioxide45]

And since only DC points will be sold supposedly once the integration is completed, all unsold VSE inventory and ROFR'd units will be added to the DC Trust. So, there should more Westin and Sheraton available for DC exchange.

I am not exactly sure how they would accomplish this though. Any unsold Flex inventory has already been conveyed to and declared in one of Vistana's trusts. I don't think they can simply move those weeks over to the DC trust. Certainly any unsold weeks would get dropped into DC trust, but I doubt they are sitting on a lot of those. Of course, in the future any ROFR or foreclosures would go to DC, but that stuff is a drop in the bucket. They will need new inventory from somewhere to feed the sales machine.

 

[dougp26364]

I’ve tried to keep up with this whole thread as well as the accompanying one with the Q&A from the MVC source.

I think you have to take the MVC characterization of things with a grain of salt. There seems to be an assumption that Vistana owners are going to be chomping at the bit to enroll in and use the DC system, and that leads to comments like “Orlando units aren’t going to be worth much” and the like.

People need to remember that, so far as I can tell, there is no change if you want to keep using your unit or trading with VSN as you’ve always done. There may be be some inventory challenges, it’s hard to know at this point, but it looks to me like nothing will really change for those who don’t want to, or can’t, use the DC system.

My ownerships are all developer purchases, so I’ll be fully eligible to participate, but I have little (and perhaps no) interest in doing so. If enrollment is free and doesn’t change anything about my ability to use VSN, I may enroll just to have the option, but I am not chomping at the bit to use any DC resorts and am pretty sure that doing so would reduce the value I’m getting for that year's ownership. Choice is always good and I’m happy to have the choice to access additional resorts, even if they are lower-tier than Westin, but I may never use them.

The one question I have is to whether we will ever see any new VSN resorts, branded with Westin or Sheraton. It seems unlikely that MVW would ever want to develop any more resorts to go in VSN, but it’s possible they might want to develop more Westin properties at some point. (I sort of doubt they’d develop any more Sheraton timeshare properties.) So could we end up with some weirdness of having future Westin or Sheraton properties which are in DC but not VSN? Obviously nobody knows. For now, I think the VSN network is unlikely to grow any further. We were lucky to get a little network growth out of the split of Vistana from Starwood a few years back.

For me, I’d probably pay to stay in a better hotel property rather than vacation in a Marriott-branded timeshare resort; I just don’t think they are that great. So many are bad hotel conversions anyway.

I sincerely doubt you will ever see more resorts developed in the Sheraton, Westin or Vistana name. In fact, my belief is that MVW will eventually rebrand everything as Marriott Vacation Club. Maybe not right away, but at some point in the future.

When Marriott introduced the DC, there was a reasonable fee to join. Like you I initially felt I would never use it. After all I was adept at exchanging weeks and could get better value in most instances using the old weeks exchange program, and I still can if I want too. But I bought in early to protect my usage rights should I change my mind. Turns out that was a very good decision on my part. Over the years the flexibility has proven more valuable to us as our lives have changed as has our employment situations. One can never underestimate the value of keeping your options open.

The ability to book shorter stays, elect midweek check in dates, bank/borrow points and book specific view categories has proven invaluable for us. Don’t so easily discount all the additional locations ILG owners will gain access too once they have the option.

Talking with TUG members and speaking to the general timeshare owner population is like talking to the educated and the uneducated. There are a lot more uneducated than there are TUG members. The percentage of TUG members jumping at the opportunity will likely be much smaller than the non-TUG owners, and that group of owners far out numbers those of us on TUG.

 

[dioxide45]

VSN fee is for Staroption exchange and available to all mandatory units including resale. But unauthorized resales can not be enrolled to the DC program without buying DC or flex points at this time.

Resale weeks can be enrolled, not traded in, by buying some amounts of DC points.

Westin and Sheraton units exchanged to the DC program will be available to all DC owners.

You speak from a position of authority in these responses as if they are verifiable facts. Where are you obtaining your information? Has it come out of a sales presentation? Or is it just what you are interpreting from the responses Denise has provided? I question that though, because you were answering questions in the other thread before answers were provided from Denise's source. Just interested in your sources.

 

[dioxide45]

I do still beleive that there are two separate agreements between Marriott Vacations Worldwide and Marriott International regarding the licencing of the Marriott, Sheraton and Westin brands. I recall the agreement between ILG and Starwood didn't allow for new resorts to be built out under those brands. I don't recall the specific restrictions or what if anything could be used to overcome them, but I recall something about it. Just because a new Westin or Sheraton property is built, it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be available in VSE. It could simply be conveyed to the DC trust and sold that way. The resort would be voluntary and Vistana/MVC just chooses to not allow it to participate in VSE.

It is hard to tell if they will build out more Sheraton or Marriott properties. They have been actively selling undeveloped land in several places. They sold off the remaining land that was to be South Beach at Sheraton Vistana Villages. They tried to sell the land at Harbour Lake but that deal fell through. I think they are still actively marketing the undeveloped land at Shadow Ridge. Points has changed the development dynamic. As long as construction and acquisition costs are similar, instead of wanting to build in places like Orlando, Vegas or Palm Desert where point values are low, they would rather build in high value locations where they can allocate a lot of points and make more money.

 

[Mowogo]

I do still beleive that there are two separate agreements between Marriott Vacations Worldwide and Marriott International regarding the licencing of the Marriott, Sheraton and Westin brands. I recall the agreement between ILG and Starwood didn't allow for new resorts to be built out under those brands. I don't recall the specific restrictions or what if anything could be used to overcome them, but I recall something about it. Just because a new Westin or Sheraton property is built, it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be available in VSE. It could simply be conveyed to the DC trust and sold that way. The resort would be voluntary and Vistana/MVC just chooses to not allow it to participate in VSE.

It is hard to tell if they will build out more Sheraton or Marriott properties. They have been actively selling undeveloped land in several places. They sold off the remaining land that was to be South Beach at Sheraton Vistana Villages. They tried to sell the land at Harbour Lake but that deal fell through. I think they are still actively marketing the undeveloped land at Shadow Ridge. Points has changed the development dynamic. As long as construction and acquisition costs are similar, instead of wanting to build in places like Orlando, Vegas or Palm Desert where point values are low, they would rather build in high value locations where they can allocate a lot of points and make more money.

Places like Orlando, Palm Desert and Las Vegas existed to create inventory to sell people on the dream of that Hawaiian vacation. Because they are overbuilt there is no real incentive to build more unless there are lots of periods where everything is full. There is no reason to complete a resort now unless people are actually staying there. MVW may at some point see the need to complete Grand Chateau, but that is the only construction I foresee at an overbuilt location unless there comes a time that MVW needs to start manufacturing points Quickly.

 

[dioxide45]

I expect them to spoon feed the flex trusts with only as much inventory needed to keep the sales going through to when they cut over. A bitter issue will be how they handle required Flex HomeOptions. I don't think they can easily add these to the DC trust. DC trust owns real estate as does the Flex trusts. I don't think they can convey Flex points to the DC trust since DC points are just a beneficial interest in a trust. I am sure there are lots of issues around that. So they may continue to sell a small amount of Flex inventory for a long time into the future. As long as that developer bought Flex inventory can be used in DC, then it is really the best of both worlds. It would have access to home resorts at 12-8 months and then VSN or even DC.

 

[dioxide45]

Places like Orlando, Palm Desert and Las Vegas existed to create inventory to sell people on the dream of that Hawaiian vacation. Because they are overbuilt there is no real incentive to build more unless there are lots of periods where everything is full. There is no reason to complete a resort now unless people are actually staying there. MVW may at some point see the need to complete Grand Chateau, but that is the only construction I foresee at an overbuilt location unless there comes a time that MVW needs to start manufacturing points Quickly.

That's just it, we haven't seen a new resort build out as pure points since the third tower of Grand Chateau. There have been some Pulse properties. Costa Rica is being sold as weeks and I don't know how the properties in Bali are being sold, but they certainly aren't going into DC points. Perhaps part of Asia Pacific? I also suspect some big pushes for "upgrades" to both current Vistana and Marriott owners. Vistana owners will be told they need to buy in order to play in DC and Marriott owners will be told to buy so they can stay at Westin properties that might end up costing a little more than the similarly located Marriott. They will likely churn through a bunch of inventory over the next three months. At some point Marriott will need new builds, they can't rely on ROFR and foreclosures for very long. I don't recall how much unsold inventory they are sitting on.