CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[Mroze]

At a recent presentation, we were told that every Vistana-Owner will have to pay an Enrollment Fee to participate in the Marriott-Program.
The justification provided was that "Marriott did NOT merge with Vistana", "Marriott PAID to acquire ILG for $4.7B" and will attempt to recover some of this cost to permit Vistana owners to benefit.

Your source mentions that there will be "No Cost to enroll in DC Points".
Does this mean that all eligible [Developer + Enrolled] Vistana owners get automatically enrolled for "No Fees"?

 

[taa120]

We have heard mixed messages over the past year about WSJ (specifically Sunset Bay platinum) participating in DC conversion at a good exchange level (as good or better than Nanea, WFX etc) previously and had more recently heard that it would not be participating at all (all via owners updates, so we are skeptical). Any confirmation of WSJ in or out and exchange value possibilities?

 

[robertk2012]

I like my 20k purchase

 

[magicjourney]

Interesting info. My only thought right now is why does WFlex convert at a lower rate than SFlex and Aventuras?
100,000 SFX gets you 2920, WFX, 3469, Aventuras 3333 sorry, WFX and SFX was backwards, good catch by a poster

Did a quick calculation. Here are the MFs for each program after conversion:
Westin Flex: 60.62 cent per point (2022 dues $0.02103/pt)
Sheraton Flex: 63.12 cent per point (2022 dues $0.01843/pt)
Marriott DC: 62.80 cent per point

I bet they spent lots of time to come up with a 'fair' formula. Kudos to them

 

[SueDonJ]

Thanks for cross posting for discussion. There are a number of tells that this source is someone in the sales organization, likely a salesperson/manager. ...

I have no idea who Denise's contact is - and I'm not asking - but I'd be very surprised to find it's a low-level salesperson or manager. Marriott doesn't easily give up information for public consumption and anyone in the org who decides to do it for themselves is pretty much gone immediately. IMO the info that Denise is sharing is too advanced to be coming from Sales unless it's at the executive level and in conjunction with the product development higher-ups.

Vistana people are lucky to have this contact and to have Denise working with him/her! Marriott people didn't have that until our moderator, DaveM, was able to develop it after the DC rollout - we were hit with this huge shift from Weeks to Points overnight, BAM!, after YEARS of sales speculation and threats, a great deal of which never came to fruition. Enjoy your "soft rollout" period, use it to your advantage to learn as much as you can, and thank Denise every day that she cultivated this contact whoever it is.

And whatever else you do, keep an open mind and listen to your fellow Vistana TUGgers who join whatever this new thing is and then generously share their experience with it. The overall tenor on the TUG Marriott forum at the DC rollout was negative. I mean, very negative! Over the years that's changed and we who are enthusiastic members of the Destination Club have many different reasons why. It has its negatives, of course, but for many of us it's not at all the money-sucking too-confusing worthless scheme that was predicted by many at the outset to fail spectacularly.

Good luck!

 

[dioxide45]

I have no idea who Denise's contact is - and I'm not asking - but I'd be very surprised to find it's a low-level salesperson or manager. Marriott doesn't easily give up information for public consumption and anyone in the org who decides to do it for themselves is pretty much gone immediately. IMO the info that Denise is sharing is too advanced to be coming from Sales unless it's at the executive level and in conjunction with the product development higher-ups.

Reading between the lines through those questions and answers, it seems that training material has been provided to sales. The title of her post indicates that sales was now able to share information with owners. That reference alone makes me think it is very likely that the information came out of training material provided to sales. I say this because one of the responses was also "I have one more video to watch, will know soon." If this was coming from someone with more inherent knowledge of the offering, they wouldn't be watching videos for the information.

While Denise isn't willing to share her contact, I have no doubt it is someone in sales. It may be a higher level sales manager in a specific office or perhaps someone higher than that or it could just be a regular sales rep. Though I could be wrong.

ETA: Even if it is from sales, it in no way means I am discounting the information being provided. It all seems to be legitimate answers based on material provided to the person replying.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

What is the MF cost per point in DP? (I tried looking at the MVC Forum stickies and could not find it.)

If they don't allow resale to automatically enroll and require a significant cost to buy additional DPs. all of that inventory will remain in Vistana. The question is how many owners at our resort are developer vs. resale/unqualified?

We fall under #4 Resale mandatory, not requaled WKORVN OF. If true, this barrier will be good for Vistana inventory unless MVS strips off best summer and whale season weeks from the Vistana inventory into DC (there are 50 weeks in WKORV high float season).

Given the high cost of MF at WKORVN we are more likely to rent for a profit than trade. We bought our unit to use and have not traded or rented it yet, so maybe MVC is not our trading platform - we trade points all the time on HGVC and may make that our trading platform and use Vistana for stays. It will suck however if 13 week enrolled owners at other resorts get higher priority over inventory than WKORVN owners.

 

[dioxide45]

What is the MF cost per point in DP? (I tried looking at the MVC Forum stickies and could not find it.)

It's there. This link will take you to the exact post.

Marriott 2022 Maintenance Fees

Moderator Notes: A reminder that this thread is intended only as a compilation of 2022 MF's. Related discussion can be found here: 2022 MF's Discussion Thread Noted in the first post in this thread, "Operating Budgets for each of the resorts may be posted to owners.marriottvacationclub.com...

tugbbs.com

 

[tschwa2]

Marriott would have the nerve to sell this to people. 112K for a week in an OF unit is hilarious

They don't really try to sell you that out right. They talk about banking and borrowing and discounted availability and bonus points for the first 2 years. Once they have you in the door at 2000-4000, then they will try to upsell you with the promise of chairman level discounts, etc.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@dioxide45 Thank you! So if DP $0.62796 / point then 3000 points is $1883/year. That's a significant annuity stream for points that won't get a 2 bdrm for week in Hawaii.

(not directed at @dioxide45) I thought I heard that DP points going rental rate is 0.60/point. Did I get that right? If so renting DP points earns less than MF?

 

[tschwa2]

Do 3* and above get "Platinum for LIFE" or Platinum as long as you maintain TS-Status" like current Marriott TS-Owners who are also eligible for "Titanium"?
yes ownership must be current

but it should be easy to reach true platinum for life using this for 10-15 years. Once you have 10 years as platinum or above and 600 nights with Bonvoy you reach true platinum for life that is not bound by the timeshare ownership.

 

[vacationtime1]

If they don't allow resale to automatically enroll and require a significant cost to buy additional DPs. all of that inventory will remain in Vistana. The question is how many owners at our resort are developer vs. resale/unqualified?

We fall under #4 Resale mandatory, not requaled WKORVN OF. If true, this barrier will be good for Vistana inventory unless MVS strips off best summer and whale season weeks from the Vistana inventory into DC (there are 50 weeks in WKORV high float season).

I was thinking similarly.

The unknown data point is what fraction of current WKORV/WKORVN owners bought from the developer? WKORV is ~18 years old; WKORVN is ~14; I suspect that the majority of those units no longer belong to their original purchasers. Although some units may have been traded in and resold, I doubt it is many; there aren't many trade-ups from Maui. Westin Flex does not own any OF units. And I don't think those who bought OF for $100K will be electing DC points any more frequently than the owners of Marriott Lahaina/Napili Towers OF units.

So how will Marriott get WKORV/N OF inventory for the DC Club? And more importantly, will there still be inventory so I can use my Kierland StarOptions to reserve WKORV?

 

[Pathways]

Did a quick calculation. Here are the MFs for each program after conversion:
Westin Flex: 60.62 cent per point (2022 dues $0.02103/pt)
Sheraton Flex: 63.12 cent per point (2022 dues $0.01843/pt)
Marriott DC: 62.80 cent per point

I bet they spent lots of time to come up with a 'fair' formula. Kudos to them

Since you already did the calculations, how about edit your post and add Adventuras?

 

[tschwa2]

FYI HARBORSIDE AND RIVERFRONT .. WON'T BE INCLUDED PROBABLY UNTIL 2024 .everything else is in

Why would Westin Riverfront be different than other resorts? If anything I would expect Harborside and WSJ to be different because of different timeshare laws.

 

[VacationForever]

@dioxide45 Thank you! So if DP $0.62796 / point then 3000 points is $1883/year. That's a significant annuity stream for points that won't get a 2 bdrm for week in Hawaii.

(not directed at @dioxide45) I thought I heard that DP points going rental rate is 0.60/point. Did I get that right? If so renting DP points earns less than MF?

Points are usually expiring for them to go for 60 cents per point. Realistically, points rent for slightly above MF. Don't forget that there are many enrolled weeks with lower MF compared to DC points and owners can rent out those points for a small profit.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

One other thought: If an owner at WKORV enrolls their week into DP, does that mean that owner will compete with other resort owners (e.g. Marriott, WKV) if they want to reserve at WKORV?

If this is true, then a lot of premier inventory will stay in Vistana because WKORV and OF owners will want priority access to inventory rather than deposit their week in DP and compete with MVC. MVC cannot strip out the weeks if not deposited into DP. And because I think it must be deposited in advance for the year, most owners will likely stick with status quo and if plans change last minute they can cancel and trade in SOs.

If the above is true, then even enrolled retail owners may not necessarily deposit into DPs. As @dioxide45 indicated, this will look a lot like MOC Lahaina and Napili unenrolled. The difference with Vistana Mandatory vs. MVC is that such owners still have an option to trade SOs and don't need to decide in advance of the year whereas MVC owners don't have that option.

Unless I knew I wanted to trade into specific MVC property, why would I deposit an expensive unit? Even then, why would an owner want to risk competing with all MVC owners to get the unit I want when I can rent our VOI for $5000 a week and then use the money to rent the exact MVC unit I want. (more hassle but...)

 

[VacationForever]

One other thought: If an owner at WKORV enrolls their week into DP, does that mean that owner will compete with other resort owners (e.g. Marriott, WKV) if they want to reserve at WKORV?

If this is true, then a lot of premier inventory will stay in Vistana because WKORV and OF owners will want priority access to inventory rather than deposit their week in DP and compete with MVC. MVC cannot strip out the weeks if not deposited into DP. And because I think it must be deposited in advance for the year, most owners will likely stick with status quo and if plans change last minute they can cancel and trade in SOs.

When a week is enrolled, you still have not given up use of your week, your week remains in the Vistana week inventory system. Only when you elect to convert the week to points, which you make the decision once a year, before you give up your week and the week gets deposited in the MVC exchange pool.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

When a week is enrolled, you still have not given up use of your week, your week remains in the Vistana week inventory system. Only when you elect to convert the week to points, which you make the decision once a year, before you give up your week and the week gets deposited in the MVC exchange pool.

Thanks for the clarification. (BTW...I hope you are recuperating well.) If I read the DP benefits at a glance correctly, that week must be deposited prior to the use year, so that inventory will be stripped out of the Vistana system when that election is made. Meaning DP inventory may not receive the Vistana inventory until closer to the use date. Perhaps 13 weeks vs. 12 weeks doesn't matter in that case because the DP won't have the enrolled owners inventory when the Vistana owner makes their 12 month reservation because most enrolled haven't elected DPs yet.

I cannot remember the exact SO banking deadline (June 30th during use year?), With Vistana, you can cancel your Week reservation 60 days prior to arrival and it still is available in Staroptions or you can reserve a week later in the use year; this option will always be more flexible and preferable for owners unless MVC changes the rules.

 

[VacationForever]

Thanks for the clarification. If I read the DP benefits at a glance correctly, that week must be deposited prior to the use year, so that inventory will be stripped out of the Vistana system when that election is made. I cannot remember the exact deadline (June 30th to bank during use year), With Vistana, you can cancel your Week reservation 60 days prior to arrival and it still is available in Staroptions or you can reserve a week later in the year if available this option will always be more flexible and preferable for owners unless MVC changes the rules.

Correct. Election deadline varies by ownership/status level, before use year. Owner/Select/Executive level - elect by Sept 30. Presidential and Chairman's Club - elect by Oct 31.

PS - Thanks. Still in alot of pain but otherwise, very thankful.

 

[dioxide45]

@dioxide45 Thank you! So if DP $0.62796 / point then 3000 points is $1883/year. That's a significant annuity stream for points that won't get a 2 bdrm for week in Hawaii.

(not directed at @dioxide45) I thought I heard that DP points going rental rate is 0.60/point. Did I get that right? If so renting DP points earns less than MF?

Points usually rent for more than $0.60pp. Realize also that many people who rent their points aren't paying a MF of $0.62pp on them. They own legacy weeks where the MF to point ratio is much lower than Trust points.

 

[dioxide45]

Unless I knew I wanted to trade into specific MVC property, why would I deposit an expensive unit? Even then, why would an owner want to risk competing with all MVC owners to get the unit I want when I can rent our VOI for $5000 a week and then use the money to rent the exact MVC unit I want. (more hassle but...)

This makes sense to the astute timeshare owner on TUG, but many don't know or care to try renting. Many don't reserve 12 months out, thus why there is still inventory at 8 months. If a Vistana owner wants to go to a specific Marriott resort, they may just opt for Club points to keep things simple.

 

[divenski]

One other thought: If an owner at WKORV enrolls their week into DP, does that mean that owner will compete with other resort owners (e.g. Marriott, WKV) if they want to reserve at WKORV?

Unless I knew I wanted to trade into specific MVC property, why would I deposit an expensive unit? Even then, why would an owner want to risk competing with all MVC owners to get the unit I want when I can rent our VOI for $5000 a week and then use the money to rent the exact MVC unit I want. (more hassle but...)

In existing MVC, there is generally no benefit to converting to points and then trying to get back into a home resort. There is more competition, possibly lower room choice priority, and worst of all, the skim factor means that you can't even get back in during some high seasons unless you give up about a day's worth of points

For me, the most useful option has been to essentially convert a EY week to two weeks EOY by converting to points and then delaying to the next year and combining a points week with a regular week.

 

[Mowogo]

In existing MVC, there is generally no benefit to converting to points and then trying to get back into a home resort. There is more competition, possibly lower room choice priority, and worst of all, the skim factor means that you can't even get back in during some high seasons unless you give up about a day's worth of points

For me, the most useful option has been to essentially convert a EY week to two weeks EOY by converting to points and then delaying to the next year and combining a points week with a regular week.

I'd say it depends on your Vistana ownership if it makes sense to convert and the answer will also depend on when you are looking to book and if you have vistana elite status right now. Sheraton Flex is something that begs for elites to convert in a lot of cases if you have an elite ownership and I can even justify the skim in an arrangement such as my family ownership. 13 month reservation for 1+ night in DC including luxury even for 3 star owners can definitely be leveraged as a product upgrade.

 

[dioxide45]

Assume that Resale-Enrolled [3-Mandatory or 4-Voluntary] can also participate in the DC-Program.
Sounds like if you a pay a VSN fee, you can convert, if you don't pay a fee you can't

Will Resale-Non-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?
resale owner will not be able to convert. I am pretty sure mandatory owners will not be able to convert also.

These two items seem to contradict each other. I suspect it is just confusion over terminology and understanding the true differences. I suspect the latter of the two will be true.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

The unknown data point is what fraction of current WKORV/WKORVN owners bought from the developer? WKORV is ~18 years old; WKORVN is ~14; I suspect that the majority of those units no longer belong to their original purchasers.

I wouldn't be surprised if over 80% of the WKORV/N developer purchases are still owned by the original buyers considering the 'losses' involved in selling. The resale market has picked up recently but I've seen many years where barely 10 or 20 units were sold on Redweek (admittedly it's not the only sales method but is probably indicative of the market).