CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[CalGalTraveler]

Based on the limited information in the marketing material we have seen images of. This doesn't seem to be the case. I am sure when one goes to a MVC presentation, it will be that you need to buy DC Trust points. Go to a Vistana presentation and you will need to buy Flex. What you need depends on where you tour and in the end you don't need it at all.

IMHO...Buying Flex or DC trust points is a deal-killer for us. Enrollment of deeds for points is fine but worry about disposing of trusts/exit if black swan of MVC/Vistana value - hard to walk because not protected by state real estate laws. Potential for too many games by developer/changing rules. The developers have moved to trusts because it is in their favor - avoiding legal protections that deed laws provide and control over the rules.

 

[DanCali]

Just received this text back from the rep I had the meeting with on Monday on if the "soft launch" has actually happened. Her reply:

"Yes it has officially happened. I am excited to share the new info. As it comes in I will share. (Conversion for) Kierland Plat 148,100 it's 36.57 so election value is 4050. Yes it's confirmed it's just an election at no cost. There is no buy in on the Marriott side. It's automatically enrolled. So each year you choose if you elect or not. If you don't elect then it will work exactly as it does now in the Vistana network." "Yes the owners will get the info. Yes Flex is higher than weeks in their system. We don't have Kaanapali yet"

Good luck to them getting savvy owners to convert at that rate. WKV Plat rents for around $4000-$4500. The rental value of 4050 DC points is $2800, maybe slightly less. So, around a $1500 disparity in value lost in the points conversion.

Another way to look at it - There are actually decent exchanges to be had within the MVC system for 4050 points, but a peak summer week at Newport Coast, for example is 4725 DC points. Converting to points, an owner would have a tough time making that exchange - they'd have to rent another 700 points for around $500. On the other hand, one can rent out WKV for $4000 rather easily, and rent a summer week 2BR at NCV for $3000 and come out $1000 ahead. So again, a disparity of at least $1500 in value ($1000 inflow, vs $500 outflow).

While most people prefer convenience and may view rental transactions as a hassle, $1500 is too much of a disparity in value to ignore.

 

[vacationtime1]

Good luck to them getting savvy owners to convert at that rate. WKV Plat rents for around $4000-$4500. The rental value of 4050 DC points is $2800, maybe slightly less. So, around a $1500 disparity in value lost in the points conversion.

Another way to look at it - There are actually decent exchanges to be had within the MVC system for 4050 points, but a peak summer week at Newport Coast, for example is 4725 DC points. Converting to points, an owner would have a tough time making that exchange - they'd have to rent another 700 points for around $500. On the other hand, one can rent out WKV for $4000 rather easily, and rent a summer week 2BR at NCV for $3000 and come out $1000 ahead. So again, a disparity of at least $1500 in value ($1000 inflow, vs $500 outflow).

While most people prefer convenience and may view rental transactions as a hassle, $1500 is too much of a disparity in value to ignore.

+1
My takeaway was simple: Marriott does not want my Kierland weeks very much.
Which is fine; I will continue to take my rental profit.
Unless Marriott makes it difficult or impossible to reserve my deeded weeks as I have been doing.

 

[DanCali]

+1
My takeaway was simple: Marriott does not want my Kierland weeks very much.
Which is fine; I will continue to take my rental profit.
Unless Marriott makes it difficult or impossible to reserve my deeded weeks as I have been doing.

I too prefer convenience over hassle. But it comes down to how much you pay for that convenience. I do recall converting a Marriott Newport Coast week to 3475 points and using that for 5 nights at their Waiohai resort in Kauai. That was easier than renting my week out and using that cash to rent points and then book Waiohai but if I did that, I would have come out ahead $300-$400. That, IMO, was a reasonable price to pay for the convenience. But $1500 - no way...

 

[Red elephant]

What I don't understand is, if they have sales touting these changes why not send out an email or have an announcement on their websites? I don't get it. A soft launch seems to be to allow them to make some changes based on owner feedback from presentations?

I am inclined to agree with this. It also allows changes from their miscalculations which apparently has already happened with the conversion numbers.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

We got our FINAL email invite today to a virtual presentation where we can learn about all the exciting opportunities we are missing out on around the Marriott/Vistana Consolidation. Meeting is via MS Teams, 90 minutes and both of us must be present. No mention of Bonvoy points. No mention of free coffee and baked goods. No thanks!

 

[jabberwocky]

Unreserved flex trust at 8 months goes into VSN just like unreserved home options and weeks.

Not if it is resale flex.

 

[dioxide45]

Not if it is resale flex.

But we really don't know what is held back in the trust at 8 months for those voluntary Flex owners to reserve.

 

[jabberwocky]

What I don't understand is, if they have sales touting these changes why not send out an email or have an announcement on their websites? I don't get it. A soft launch seems to be to allow them to make some changes based on owner feedback from presentations?

I agree it's weird - if it's so great they should just launch it. My guess is that they need to build some sort of inventory pipeline for the combined program without overwhelming the system with demand, otherwise people won't see the point and stick with what they have.

I just got a call from the concierge at SDO for our arrival tomorrow. She was touting the new "soft launch" of the combined program in trying to get us to sign up for a presentation. I didn't bite, but I just might when we arrive just to see what they say (and $200 spending cash never hurts).

 

[dioxide45]

I agree it's weird - if it's so great they should just launch it. My guess is that they need to build some sort of inventory pipeline for the combined program without overwhelming the system with demand, otherwise people won't see the point and stick with what they have.

I just got a call from the concierge at SDO for our arrival tomorrow. She was touting the new "soft launch" of the combined program in trying to get us to sign up for a presentation. I didn't bite, but I just might when we arrive just to see what they say (and $200 spending cash never hurts).

I am not really sure what inventory pipeline they would need to build. The Marriott inventory is there and they can't get Vistana inventory into the system right now. I am not aware of any mechanism that will allow Vistana owners to elect DC points yet. Perhaps that is what the website will be down for at the end of the month? With the Marriott DC program back in 2010, they just threw the switch. There will be some growing pains, but this whole "soft launch" is just strange. It really just amounts to a few signs and some balloons. Reps have been talking about this thing for months and this launch hasn't told us anything we didn't already expect.

 

[jabberwocky]

But we really don't know what is held back in the trust at 8 months for those voluntary Flex owners to reserve.

We also don't know what is dumped into II or how the inventory is managed overall - and to date, it works pretty well IMO. I think the recent reports of website problems are more of an IT issue than an inventory issue.

Realistically the inventory has to balance out at the end of the day. MVC can't give more DC points to a Vistana owner on average than they are going to charge someone on the MVC side and vice-versa (skim aside). As you and others have pointed out elsewhere, Vistana has a pretty "flat" points chart in terms of seasons - especially for the Hawaii properties; whereas the MVC chart has been sliced and diced to maximize the points they can extract for a particular week. I think this is why they have had so much trouble trying to roll this out. Trying to calculate values for a particular owner week will be too hard to explain (and will tick off Vistana owners). Even exchanges into II from Vistana use a blended exchange value for the season rather than depositing a specific week.

I don't think SO or Flex/HomeOptions are going to be the "true" currency to exchange into DC with. They will probably try to say that this is what the conversions are based on, but my guess is there is some sort of blended seasonal exchange value they are calculating in the background which is by nature correlated with SO and DC points, but not an exact amount. This is probably why we aren't getting any sort of official announcement or points conversion chart.

Of course, I'm probably wrong, but it's as good a guess as anything else we've seen in the forums to date.

 

[dsmrp]

The Vistana site has a notice of upcoming maintenance downtime of the website.
It's a long downtime, ~8 hours, during a weekday (nite shift) rather than weekend.
I'm speculating they'll be installing updates related to the Marriott integration.

 

[Living the Dream]

I had an “owners update” on Thursday at Desert Willow. We currently own one week in Kaanapali North with an island view. I was amazed at how little our sales person knew about the new program, considering how pressed we were to take a meeting. I didn’t learn much.

First off, my salesman knew nothing about the point conversion values. All he would say is that we have a good property and that we should have enough points to use with the Marriott system and secure a like type property. The biggest problem we had, is that in the new system, Marriott owners at a high enough level will be able to reserve a unit in our complex 13 months out, while we, as owners at only the gold level, are only able to reserve at 12 months out. “Seems reasonable to me” said no Kaanapai owner ever. We asked what we could do to ensure that we can make reservations 13 months out as well. Currently, we have 148,100 points with our unit, which is gold level in the Marriott system. We need 159,000 to get up to Platinum. At that level, we can make reservations 13 months out. Or so I am told.

To get to the next level, I was offered three different packages of Westin Flex points. The first was to buy 44,000 points on an EOY basis. For this I was quoted $11,440. The next was to buy 37,000 EY points for $15,085. The last deal was to buy 148,100 EY points for $53,671. Closing costs were an additional $1145 on all three. We ended up buying the smallest deal as we wanted to make sure Maui stays available to us. I have doubts about it, and am thinking seriously about rescinding. Would love to hear what everyone thinks.

 

[dioxide45]

I had an “owners update” on Thursday at Desert Willow. We currently own one week in Kaanapali North with an island view. I was amazed at how little our sales person knew about the new program, considering how pressed we were to take a meeting. I didn’t learn much.

First off, my salesman knew nothing about the point conversion values. All he would say is that we have a good property and that we should have enough points to use with the Marriott system and secure a like type property. The biggest problem we had, is that in the new system, Marriott owners at a high enough level will be able to reserve a unit in our complex 13 months out, while we, as owners at only the gold level, are only able to reserve at 12 months out. “Seems reasonable to me” said no Kaanapai owner ever. We asked what we could do to ensure that we can make reservations 13 months out as well. Currently, we have 148,100 points with our unit, which is gold level in the Marriott system. We need 159,000 to get up to Platinum. At that level, we can make reservations 13 months out. Or so I am told.

To get to the next level, I was offered three different packages of Westin Flex points. The first was to buy 44,000 points on an EOY basis. For this I was quoted $11,440. The next was to buy 37,000 EY points for $15,085. The last deal was to buy 148,100 EY points for $53,671. Closing costs were an additional $1145 on all three. We ended up buying the smallest deal as we wanted to make sure Maui stays available to us. I have doubts about it, and am thinking seriously about rescinding. Would love to hear what everyone thinks.

Is your WKORV an unqualified week or did you buy it direct?

 

[Living the Dream]

I bought it direct. The salesman didn’t think it would be a good idea to trade it in.

 

[dioxide45]

I bought it direct. The salesman didn’t think it would be a good idea to trade it in.

If you bought it direct, you likely didn't need to buy additional points to be able to use it in the new program. So if that is the only reason why you bought, I would suggest rescinding and waiting until we have more official information. Indications right now seem to indicate that qualified ownerships (direct or requalified) will be able to elect Club Points with no additional purchase.

 

[dioxide45]

I don't know how there can't be an enrollment process for Vistana ownerships to be able to participate. Over on the Marriott weeks side, there is a formal enrollment process where you have to review and agree to certain terms and be provided with additional disclosures. So there is likely to be some formal process to "sign up" even if there is no enrollment fee.

 

[dioxide45]

Copy and pasting from the other thread so we can discuss specific items here.

• Here are some answers for you from my source: I didn't choose the questions to answer, nor do I have any info about this topic myself, and I posted the response verbatim, so you'll have to take the answers below at face value.

• My source has agreed to do one more round of questions, for now.

Main question. How is the DC or exchange vehicle being funded with Sheraton/Westin inventory?
When someone elects to DC points, that inventory gets placed in DC inventory

does mandatory resale week and voluntary weeks have capability to elect marriott points, or only enrolled weeks are allowed?
NO resales qualify and once live we will not retro weeks, they are out of luck

What is the cost, if any, for Vistana owners to participate in the new program (Either an “enrollment fee” or purchase requirement) and is it different if they are already Marriott points owners (trust or enrolled)?
No cost to enroll in DC points. The VSN club dues will change, more to come, its actually higher but better, no more fees after that

Is the election for Vistana into DC a one time decision or an annual decision (like currently exchanging for Bonvoy/Interval)?
Every year you decide what does and does not go in DC. You can split but each VOI can't be split, you owns a 148,100 flex, it all goes in or none of it

Regarding 3, 4, 5 Star.
That transfers over to DC Ownership levels as you indicated.

Does the Vistana level still determine Bonvoy status or is it based on DC Status of Executive, Chairman, Etc.?
Higher levels of DC status get Bonvoy Titanium. We discussed 3 star 4 star and 5 star. if for some reason you are not at that level but your points convert to DC and it hits that level, you get it

Can Vistana ownership DC points-equivalence be added onto MVC DC points to achieve a higher status?
pretty sure the answer is yes

When (date) will owners actually be able to start electing their Vistana ownership for Club Points?
This summer for 2023 usage

When will we be officially notified of this merger, as Vistana owners?
summer for 2023 usage, pretty much when it happens. This is a soft rollout. Just like when Marriott did it, one day it's old, one day its new

are the details in contract form or is this information from someone you trust (but still only verbal)
none of this in contract. As Denise know's My information is accurate and yes owners are trusting us. Sales are brisk already

Interesting info. My only thought right now is why does WFlex convert at a lower rate than SFlex and Aventuras?
100,000 SFX gets you 2920, WFX, 3469, Aventuras 3333 sorry, WFX and SFX was backwards, good catch by a poster

(separate topic)
FYI HARBORSIDE AND RIVERFRONT .. WON'T BE INCLUDED PROBABLY UNTIL 2024 .everything else is in

Do 3* and above get "Platinum for LIFE" or Platinum as long as you maintain TS-Status" like current Marriott TS-Owners who are also eligible for "Titanium"?
yes ownership must be current

With Marriott, you have until Sept 30 (Oct 31 for higher ownership levels) of the year prior to your use year to elect Club Points. So for 2022 use year, Marriott owners had to elect points by Sept 30, 2021. I suspect for Vistana, they will be electing for 2023 use year from the start

I have one more video to watch, will know soon. FYI I CANNOT answer any questions on the MVC side

Conversion for deeded weeks is complicated. Orlando weeks, not great, Lagunamar pretty good, Kanapali good to very good. Pretty much what you would expect !!

Vistana will STOP selling Flex soon enough, I don't have a date. We will then sell DC points. My guess is whatever is not sold will get dumped into DC points plus, as I said, when people elect, those options get dumped in also. Even though TUGers are very skeptical, I can't imagine any Vistana owner isn't thrilled with this info except for resale owners of course. We sold for years, to get to 5 Star and get Platinum for life. Well now MVC says, just get to 3 Star and we will give you it

Adding additional responses;
More answers from my source

Are they still tweaking the program or is it completely set?
yes, tweaking is a good term. Nanea & St John are getting tweaked as an example. I think some things could change slightly. What I pretty much know won't change is Elite status and what they will get with CLUB POINTS

How do resale owners retro before this goes live?
Call a site or the corporate office

Once VSN dues are raised to match MVC dues, will Vistana owners be able to do Vistana to Marriott exchanges for free through II instead of paying the current discounted exchange fee?
Each property has their own dues. Remember, a weeks owner will NEVER be a points owners, they will just be able to convert

I would also like to know if StarOption Banking Fees and Guest Cert Fees also go away if one still uses StarOptions.
yes, ALL addon fees are going away. The VSM membership fee with be adjusted at a flat rate depending on your Marriott level. I am not ready to give that but I think it's a much better value.

Assume 1-Developer & 2-Flex are eligible to participate in the DC-Program. correct

Assume that Resale-Enrolled [3-Mandatory or 4-Voluntary] can also participate in the DC-Program.
Sounds like if you a pay a VSN fee, you can convert, if you don't pay a fee you can't

Will Resale-Non-Enrolled [5-Mandatory or 6-Voluntary] units be eligible to participate in the DC-Program for an additional cost?
resale owner will not be able to convert. I am pretty sure mandatory owners will not be able to convert also.

Does this mean that all eligible [Developer + Enrolled] Vistana owners get automatically enrolled for "No Fees"?
We are being told no fee. Can that change ? I have no clue. I can only tell you how I was told to present it to the owners so I think it will stay no fee

We have heard mixed messages over the past year about WSJ (specifically Sunset Bay platinum) participating in DC conversion at a good exchange level (as good or better than Nanea, WFX etc) previously and had more recently heard that it would not be participating at all (all via owners updates, so we are skeptical). Any confirmation of WSJ in or out and exchange value possibilities?
great question. They pulled WSJ & Nanea to readjust the conversion. My 30,000 ft view says it was because St John was way to low and will go up and Nanea OF and resort view ere the same which makes no sense so they will fix that. I don't think the FLEX weeks will change at all. I don't see any chance WSJ will be out. My opinion is this is our most expensive resort rental wise so they will want those people in to deposit the weeks/options

Will there be any changes to banking? Deadline dates?, fees?, banking for 2 years?
I am pretty sure if you keep your Vistana with Vistana, all those rules will stay the same. good question. As mentioned all additional fees will go away and the CLUB DUES will go up. I can share this nugget, II exchanges will be included in the new CLUB dues. No, I will give them now but all it all it's a win IMHO.

 

[dioxide45]

Quoting these from the other thread;

Why did you call out resale owners? What’s the impact?

Will all “existing“ Vistana owners (including “existing“ resale owners) be able to elect their Vistana ownership for DC Points? If not, who is excluded?

Did you mean once LIVE, all future resales purchases will not be eligible for DC Points?

The response specifically was that unqualified (resale non requalified/retroed) weeks won't be able to participate and they will end requalifying weeks as an option when buying.

How do resale owners retro before this goes live?

I would suggest calling corporate sales to see what your options are. Or plan a trip in the very near future. I suspect Vistana will use the next couple months to try to push requalification of resale weeks.

Once VSN dues are raised to match MVC dues, will Vistana owners be able to do Vistana to Marriott exchanges for free through II instead of paying the current discounted exchange fee?

Based on one of the replies, the answer seems to be yes. It looks like Vistana to Marriott and Vistana to Vistana exchange fees would be $0. If the fee goes up however, I suspect there will have to be a concerted effort for the owner to enroll in the program. Perhaps no fee, but enrollment will be required.

What is the cost, if any, for Vistana owners to participate in the new program (Either an “enrollment fee” or purchase requirement) and is it different if they are already Marriott points owners (trust or enrolled)?
No cost to enroll in DC points. The VSN club dues will change, more to come, its actually higher but better, no more fees after that

 

[kozykritter]

Quoting these from the other thread;

The response specifically was that unqualified (resale non requalified/retroed) weeks won't be able to participate and they will end requalifying weeks as an option when buying.


I would suggest calling corporate sales to see what your options are. Or plan a trip in the very near future. I suspect Vistana will use the next couple months to try to push requalification of resale weeks.


Based on one of the replies, the answer seems to be yes;
What is the cost, if any, for Vistana owners to participate in the new program (Either an “enrollment fee” or purchase requirement) and is it different if they are already Marriott points owners (trust or enrolled)?
No cost to enroll in DC points. The VSN club dues will change, more to come, its actually higher but better, no more fees after that

That last part is very vague so I'm asking for clarification from the representative.

 

[dioxide45]

When will we be officially notified of this merger, as Vistana owners?
summer for 2023 usage, pretty much when it happens. This is a soft rollout. Just like when Marriott did it, one day it's old, one day its new

Marriott never did a solf rollout of their program. It was a hard cut off on the day of announcement, June 20, 2010. Owners could start enrolling in and electing points right away. Sales was trained on Thur, Fri and the announcement went out to all owners on Sunday. So far we have no announcement from Marriott regarding the new changes forthcoming.

 

[travelhacker]

If all resale owners (including mandatory) can't access the DP program, doesn't that eventually starve the DP program of some of the best VSN resorts like Kierland, the Kaanapali resorts, and Harbourside?

I'm not sure what percentage of deeds at Kierland and Kaanapali are resale, but I'm guessing it's a significant percentage.

The good news is that the "old" VSN should continue to have good access among the mandatory resorts.

 

[kozykritter]

If all resale owners (including mandatory) can't access the DP program, doesn't that eventually starve the DP program of some of the best VSN resorts like Kierland, the Kaanapali resorts, and Harbourside?

I'm not sure what percentage of deeds at Kierland and Kaanapali are resale, but I'm guessing it's a significant percentage.

The good news is that the "old" VSN should continue to have good access among the mandatory resorts.

I suspect this is why they are leaking this information out 3 months ahead of time instead of doing the immediate cut over like they did with Marriott when it went to DC points. They want to give a window for resale owners to requalify and participate so they can have more inventory, especially from prime properties.

 

[dioxide45]

If all resale owners (including mandatory) can't access the DP program, doesn't that eventually starve the DP program of some of the best VSN resorts like Kierland, the Kaanapali resorts, and Harbourside?

I'm not sure what percentage of deeds at Kierland and Kaanapali are resale, but I'm guessing it's a significant percentage.

The good news is that the "old" VSN should continue to have good access among the mandatory resorts.

I don't know percentages either, but I suspect resale ownerships are less than 10% overall. Vistana is a huge selling machine and we are talking millions of deeds over the entire program.

 

[CPNY]

I am not really sure what inventory pipeline they would need to build. The Marriott inventory is there and they can't get Vistana inventory into the system right now. I am not aware of any mechanism that will allow Vistana owners to elect DC points yet. Perhaps that is what the website will be down for at the end of the month? With the Marriott DC program back in 2010, they just threw the switch. There will be some growing pains, but this whole "soft launch" is just strange. It really just amounts to a few signs and some balloons. Reps have been talking about this thing for months and this launch hasn't told us anything we didn't already expect.

Signs and balloons help the sales rep spew more lies. People will believe the lie because there is confetti and balloons in the room so it will sound real.

Walk into a car dealership with no decorations or signage and speak with a sales rep who tells you there is a sale going on. you’re probably going to be reluctant to trust just his word.

You then Walk into another car dealership down the road where you see balloons on the hood of a car. without speaking to any sales rep you’re going to automatically assume there is a sale and you’re likely to buy even though the price is the same as it was yesterday before they put balloons up.

I see balloons and I automatically assume they are trying to upsell the same crap at the same price.