CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[dioxide45]

It looks like the current VSN fee will live on as well as the a la carte fees. So that seems to indicate that post 8/9 mandatory resales will participate in VSN just as mandatory resales do today (and pre 8/9).

 

[kozykritter]

Nice work Dioxide! You should seriously consider a career in detective work

 

[kozykritter]

Interesting stuff! The way that they worded it with mandatory resale before 8/9 saying that they would have the opportunity to elect Club points and have their ownership counted towards benefit levels implies to me that there will be some sort of enrollment fee to do so or maybe even a purchase of MVC club points. For developer purchases they just said straight up that they're eligible.

An enrollment fee or points purchase for unqualified mandatory resales has been a discussed possibility on these forums since the soft launch. I suppose that's better than saying that they are not eligible at all ever. It makes sense as Marriott charged resales owners as of a certain date in 2010 an enrollment fee to join the MVC internal exchange company (now called Abound) and receive points so why wouldn't they do the same here?

 

[VacationForever]

Jeremy, I log-in to Vistana and don't find the information which you have posted. Did you get it as a pop-up box like MVC site?

 

[kozykritter]

Jeremy, I log-in to Vistana and don't find the information which you have posted. Did you get it as a pop-up box like MVC site?

Go to the very bottom of the page and click on site map.

 

[dioxide45]

Jeremy, I log-in to Vistana and don't find the information which you have posted. Did you get it as a pop-up box like MVC site?

No popup. It is at the bottom of that Dashboard and clicking on SITE MAP. Thanks to @aeroflygirl for mentioning it in this post. I wouldn't have found it otherwise.

 

[timsi]

Here is some Abound information from Vistana.com. It looks like there will be an opportunity to opt-out and continue to pay the current VSN Membership Fee amount and not be able to use Club Points (Abound). There is the 8/9 date outlined below in regard to mandatory resales VOIs.

Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™

• The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network (“VSN”).
• Reservations using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional and go live in October 2022 for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when this capability in Abound is available.
• Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
• Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
  • Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
  • VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.
• VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
• VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.

Vistana® Signature Experiences Resorts

Availability in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ starting 12 months prior to check-in applies to inventory made available by Vistana Signature Network® members electing to receive Club Points.

We anticipate that exchange through the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program may not be available at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and The Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas for stays in 2023 (and, possibly beyond for Harborside Resort at Atlantis); however, we will communicate more specific information at a later time.

I am wondering what kind of VOIs "may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities" and what it means for those with more complex ownership (retail/resale, mandatory/voluntary).

Also, If the mandatory VSN is given the opportunity to participate in Abound, if you opt in, do you have to agree to give up the mandatory status? Can they ask you to agree with something that is in conflict with the mandatory rules at your resort?

 

[timsi]

Since they mention 8/9, I guess they filed some legal documents on that day, but we do not have access to them yet. Or maybe they had just planned to announce this on 8/9 but they had to postpone due to the IT fiasco. By the way, I only logged in vistana.com now after several attempts. I am patient and deep in my heart I know everything will be fixed in the next 10 years.

 

[dioxide45]

I am wondering what kind of VOIs "may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities" and what it means for those with more complex ownership (retail/resale, mandatory/voluntary).

Also, If the mandatory VSN is given the opportunity to participate in Abound, if you opt in, do you have to agree to give up the mandatory status? Can they ask you to agree with something that is in conflict with the mandatory rules at your resort?

I think the opt-out option may be there for some people that only own one week and don't qualify for 3* and only use their home resort where they would see an increase in the VSN fee when it goes to the Abound Club Fee. The current VSN Fee is $160 and the Abound Club Fee would be $230. They may be willing to provide those owners an opt-out to prevent a lot of complaints about the fees.

 

[dioxide45]

Since they mention 8/9, I guess they filed some legal documents on that day, but we do not have access to them yet. Or maybe they had just planned to announce this on 8/9 but they had to postpone due to the IT fiasco. By the way, I only logged in vistana.com now after several attempts. I am patient and deep in my heart I know everything will be fixed in the next 10 years.

They filed some documents with the Orange County Florida Recorder on 8/15 that were dated 8/4 but they made no mention of those dates. I don't know that filing of any specific documents is required for this. They could really set any arbitrary date that they want. Perhaps it was a date that they made a formal internal announcement and they wanted to hedge off internal staff from taking advantage of privileged information for their own gain.

 

[kozykritter]

They filed some documents with the Orange County Florida Recorder on 8/15 that were dated 8/4 but they made no mention of those dates. I don't know that filing of any specific documents is required for this. They could really set any arbitrary date that they want. Perhaps it was a date that they made a formal internal announcement and they wanted to hedge off internal staff from taking advantage of privileged information for their own gain.

That is how SVO handled things like this back when I sold for them at WRF. They wouldn't tell us until the day things happened, like when we showed up for work one day and they told us "ok, as of today we are no longer selling weeks but instead this new thing called Flex!" Many times we learned about changes first from owners that received emails before SVO corporate informed us. Smart move, though, as you could see how some people could exploit early notice for their own gain.

 

[dioxide45]

That is how SVO handled things like this back when I sold for them at WRF. They wouldn't tell us until the day things happened, like when we showed up for work one day and they told us "ok, as of today we are no longer selling weeks but instead this new thing called Flex!" Many times we learned about changes first from owners that received emails before SVO corporate informed us. Smart move, though, as you could see how some people could exploit early notice for their own gain.

Yeah, same a most large public corporations. Most of the staff doesn't find out about things until they are also announced to the general public. That is a little more important since actual Internal Trading laws could be broken if the privileged information is known.

 

[jabberwocky]

Interesting stuff! The way that they worded it with mandatory resale before 8/9 saying that they would have the opportunity to elect Club points and have their ownership counted towards benefit levels implies to me that there will be some sort of enrollment fee to do so or maybe even a purchase of MVC club points. For developer purchases they just said straight up that they're eligible.

An enrollment fee or points purchase for unqualified mandatory resales has been a discussed possibility on these forums since the soft launch. I suppose that's better than saying that they are not eligible at all ever. It makes sense as Marriott charged resales owners as of a certain date in 2010 an enrollment fee to join the MVC internal exchange company (now called Abound) and receive points so why wouldn't they do the same here?

But then why do it as an opt-out rather than an opt-in? Whe DP were launched in 2010 you had to opt-in. Here it seems like if you're in VSN as of 8/8 it is automatically included. Otherwise, you'd potentially end up paying the VSN fee and the Marriott annual fee?

 

[kozykritter]

We don't know yet what "certain owners" they are talking about that can opt out nor do we know if developer/requalified resales will be automatically enrolled since it wasn't stated anywhere in that limited info. Too many details missing. But that specific language given for mandatory resales already in the VSN implies they will have the opportunity to opt in and that an enrollment fee/purchase is likely since it was presented as an opportunity and not direct "you're in" eligibility like developer.

Eligibility is not enrollment. It's more like a culling of ownerships down to ones that are eligible to enroll with or without conditions. Right now it's clear that unqualified voluntary resales are out of that class since they wouldn't be in the VSN as of 8/8. For the remaining ownerships they need to tell us more!

 

[capjak]

Seems like you could contact a trusted salesperson/insider and find out what the "opt in" means? Since they all the documents in place stating that there is this opportunity.

 

[kozykritter]

Seems like you could contact a trusted salesperson/insider and find out what the "opt in" means? Since they all the documents in place stating that there is this opportunity.

You seriously want people quoting an insider at this point?

 

[capjak]

Seems they would have it in writing so that they could start today selling based on the opt in.

 

[kozykritter]

Seems they would have it in writing so that they could start today selling based on the opt in.

We've seen things in writing here that appear now to be untrue. Anyone with a computer and a printer can create a document. Call me jaded!

 

[Jimmyboy]

Based on some reverse engineering, what you get is the average number of points required to book a week in the season you own, less 7% (aka, "skim")

You can see this calculation specifically for WKV a couple of hundred posts ago.... It came out pretty much at 4050 (link below).

Aside from that 7% skim, the average number of points to book a week in the season is the most you can get because otherwise they would be giving out more points than are required to book the entire season. If they gave us that number, it wouldn't be "skim" even if you can't book all the weeks in your seasons.

You'd generally elect Abound points to make a reservation at a different resort not your home resort. There are some weeks in January and May (still Platinum season) when you can actually use 4050 Abound points to book 10 nights at WKV. 4050 won't get you 7 nights in March, but that's what your deeded week is for... Elect points only when it's beneficial for you.

CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

Thank you for your hard work on this. Let’s hope it’s close to this if they do work out the issues that are preventing this from being included in the initial launch. I do have a vested interest in this, as I own in both seasons :) These numbers are still low compared to week rental values...

tugbbs.com

Makes sense and this 4050 number was the number given to me at the last update I had in July. We were told Nonqualified our resold mandatory deeds would not be included but this is not evident in their publication. They state VSN members can particcipate which Mandatory members are included. It seems to me they would want as many particpants and possible to be included. Marriott resells are included by adding a surcharge at the time of transfer. The sales people at the update tried talking me into to buy extra flex to qualify my resale deeds but we didn't go for it. If we get in fine if we don't we can still use VSN exchange which works well for us anyway.

 

[dioxide45]

Seems they would have it in writing so that they could start today selling based on the opt in.

We really don't know what they have and what they do have and how they interpret it. One person's interpretation may be quite different than another.

 

[Jimmyboy]

Here is some Abound information from Vistana.com. It looks like there will be an opportunity to opt-out and continue to pay the current VSN Membership Fee amount and not be able to use Club Points (Abound). There is the 8/9 date outlined below in regard to mandatory resales VOIs.

Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™

• The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network (“VSN”).
• Reservations using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional and go live in October 2022 for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when this capability in Abound is available.
• Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
• Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
  • Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
  • VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.
• VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
• VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.

Vistana® Signature Experiences Resorts

Availability in Abound by Marriott Vacations™ starting 12 months prior to check-in applies to inventory made available by Vistana Signature Network® members electing to receive Club Points.

We anticipate that exchange through the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange program may not be available at Harborside Resort at Atlantis and The Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas for stays in 2023 (and, possibly beyond for Harborside Resort at Atlantis); however, we will communicate more specific information at a later time.

Great info. I wonder how much the additional fees will be to be part of Abound Progam

 

[dioxide45]

Great info. I wonder how much the additional fees will be to be part of Abound Progam

 

[timsi]

No popup. It is at the bottom of that Dashboard and clicking on SITE MAP. Thanks to @aeroflygirl for mentioning it in this post. I wouldn't have found it otherwise.

more info here

https://content.marriottvacationclub.com/abound/Abound-by-Marriott-Vacations-Exchange-Procedures.pdf

Interesting stuff! The way that they worded it with mandatory resale before 8/9 saying that they would have the opportunity to elect Club points and have their ownership counted towards benefit levels implies to me that there will be some sort of enrollment fee to do so or maybe even a purchase of MVC club points. For developer purchases they just said straight up that they're eligible.

An enrollment fee or points purchase for unqualified mandatory resales has been a discussed possibility on these forums since the soft launch. I suppose that's better than saying that they are not eligible at all ever. It makes sense as Marriott charged resales owners as of a certain date in 2010 an enrollment fee to join the MVC internal exchange company (now called Abound) and receive points so why wouldn't they do the same here?

I see the opportunity to elect points not to join Abound, to me it sounds like the membership to Abound is already baked in once you are a VSN owner. Who knows, maybe once you are a VSN member they will give the opportunity to bring all other resale weeks in. Maybe they do not like the voluntary/mandatory complication and they can solve that by offering the option to have everything in Abound. I speculate that the resale VOIs are better than the average and that they include some of the best units/views/seasons/resorts because people generally do not default on something of value when the secondary market is there for them. It would certainly make sense to invite those to be part of Abound.

 

[bigbillf]

View attachment 63226

Looks to me that VSN members in good standing are not required to pay Exchange Company Dues...... As per Section VI 3 in the attachment, page 14?

 

[dioxide45]

Looks to me that VSN members in good standing are not required to pay Exchange Company Dues...... As per Section VI 3 in the attachment, page 14?

I would agree, they won't pay an Exchange Company Dues to Abound, but there is this "beyond what is payable to Network Operator for membership in the Network". So I think VSN members still pay the fee, just to VSN instead, as the Network is defined in the document as VSN.