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Any experience with Sierra Rentals and Resales??

foreverloves

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Are you saying that YOU are supposed to complete an international wire transfer to another entity? Or are you saying that Sierra is going to internationally wire transfer you funds?

Did you see this thread?

http://www.complaintsboard.com/comp...al-and-resales-c305290.html?sort=datea&page=1

I would want something firm from my banking institution that clearly confirms there is no possible way for any company to withdraw funds from my account.
 

DeniseM

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gmezlor has already paid several thousand dollars in upfront fees to this company (months ago.) I believe she is saying that they are going to finally be paying her for the TS's they bought from her.

I hope this works out for her, but I'm sceptical.

This is the deal - I believe she has paid them $1,195 in upfront fees for each week:

I should have clarified that they are trying to buy one 52 week complement of each type of unit at Velas Vallarta in Puerto Vallarta, MX specifically. I can only speak to what I have been offered for my 4 weeks in a 2 br Villa Plus Deluxe ($27,900/week, 24 years remaining).....I can't say what anyone else has been offered for single weeks or for different unit sizes.
 
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gomezlor

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They are going to transfer the payment for the timeshare sale to me. As I noted below, I verified with my bank that the information they were asking for was appropriate for an international wire transfer, and that there was no way they could take money OUT of my account with this information.

I'm skeptical too, but hopeful since I'm already committed.
 

foreverloves

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gmezlor has already paid several thousand dollars in upfront fees to this company (months ago.) I believe she is saying that they are going to finally be paying her for the TS's they bought from her.

I hope this works out for her, but I'm sceptical.

This is the deal - I believe she has paid them $1,195 in upfront fees for each week:

I spent a while reading this thread...I almost couldn't stop reading it...

I'm enormously skeptical as well. If the closings have already occurred, why not mail a check? Why is a money transfer required? Is there any way to confirm that there's been a transfer of ownership in some way?

I know it's been mentioned over and over again -- one quick google search reveals so many disturbing results.

I hope you're one of the only lucky ones.
 

Rent_Share

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gomezlor is a very trusting person . . .

Clueless to admit she/he has been scammed again

Or perhaps the most discrete schill ever
 

foreverloves

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I've rarely seen a shill so...um...dedicated? :)

I feel badly. I think this person is clearly trying to believe that this will all happen. To be honest, I hope gomezlor keeps updating, because if she is one of the lucky ones then all Tuggers should know that there is one legitimate outfit out there. (I'm trying - really I am)

But, um...yeah. I don't think there's a dime to be had. Shouldn't we have heard by now about this international money transfer? It should have happened by now, right?
 

DeniseM

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I don't think she is a shill. She is posting from the IP of a major company - probably her work IP.
 

gomezlor

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I'm not a shill, and yes, I'm posting from my work. I've gotten to the point where I'm cautious of even asking for advice on here because people are so mean. I thought the purpose of TUG was to help people with timeshare questions, not to poke fun at them. I've been genuinely disappointed by the reception I've had in this forum, especially because I've continued to be kind and courteous to everyone in spite of the repeated mockery.

The only reason I continue to post is because I know that there are a lot of people out there reading this chain that are in the same boat as I am with Sierra. I've had people PM me telling me "how brave I am" to keep posting to such a hostile forum, but I suppose someone has to step up and do it.
 

Rent_Share

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We hope you have found the one - That will get you out of your problem

The hostile members here have seen post after post of people who advanced money up front (If there was a deal and the entity was properly licensed and actually brokering a sale rather than collecting a listing fee, the money/fees could/would/should be deducted from the proceeds) and end up with a contract that prevents the payer from disputing the charge with the credit card company since they delivered what the written agreement calls for which has absolutely nothing to do with the promises on the phone

The sharp responses are intended as warnings to others not to fall for the lies of Sierra, we are abrupt because we have seen the same story daily, weekly and monthly. The responses are not to rub your nose in it but to warn others before they make the same mistake . . . . Continue to enjoy the kool aid -


Amazing many of these listing companies have moved to charging up front to get your money back from their former competitors in charging up front based on the promise of a refund of the fees previously paid.

Since it is going to be a "wire transfer" we will never see a copy of the canceled check . . . . . January is right around the corner so take out the check book for another round of maintenance fees . . . . . .
 
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My wife and I are essentially at the same point as gomezlor. We attempted to use Sierra in order to sell our timeshare in Puerto Vallarta. Last December they said that there was a buyer, but they were waiting until they had the correct amount of timeshares to sell all at once. That was when we paid the "closing costs" roughly 1100 dollars. Since then we had heard very little if anything and figured they were never going to sell. We thought that we would just stop dealing with them and cut our losses, until a few days ago. We received an email that said that the proper amount of timeshares had been amassed and the buyer was ready to finish the deal.

Like gomezlor we were asked to fill out a form giving them bank account information and told that they were going to wire transfer our money to us, but they also said that before they could do that Gibraltar, which is the escrow company that Sierra is using for us, had submitted our escrow file and title to the state of Jalisco for certification, and it was reported that there were unpaid taxes due on the timeshare. So basically we owed $695 more to Mexico.

At this point we became very skeptical and that was when I ran across this thread. After reading the thread so far we called the actual timeshare company Velas Vallarta accounting department and asked if that was at all reasonable, to which they replied no there should be no reason that you owe taxes to Mexico.

We plan to cut our losses with sierra I don't think they are even trying anymore to not look like a scam.
 

DeniseM

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I'm not a shill, and yes, I'm posting from my work. I've gotten to the point where I'm cautious of even asking for advice on here because people are so mean. I thought the purpose of TUG was to help people with timeshare questions, not to poke fun at them. I've been genuinely disappointed by the reception I've had in this forum, especially because I've continued to be kind and courteous to everyone in spite of the repeated mockery.

You have received a wealth of solid advice here, but against all reason, you cling to the idea that you are going to sell your timeshares for $27,000 each, when you can buy the same thing on ebay for $1! It is frustrating to those of us who have seen this scenario every day for years, and KNOW that you are going to get scammed and lose almost $5,000. I know that you still think that AMEX will bail you out if all goes wrong, even though it's been more than 8 mos. since you let these people charge your credit card. But these people aren't dumb - they have an exit plan. They isn't going to be any money left for credit cards to get back. My guess is that when they have maxed out this scam, they will go bankrupt, and desperate owners will be left with no recourse.

Just a few days ago, they were going to wire you the money and now it looks like they are asking for $2,780 MORE! Are you really going to send them more money???

Like gomezlor we were asked to fill out a form giving them bank account information and told that they were going to wire transfer our money to us, but they also said that before they could do that Gibraltar, which is the escrow company that Sierra is using for us, had submitted our escrow file and title to the state of Jalisco for certification, and it was reported that there were unpaid taxes due on the timeshare. So basically we owed $695 more to Mexico.

Not only that, but in other threads you've asked about using other scammers to sell other timeshares. I don't know what to say to you any more. I know you aren't a shill, but I have seldom seen anyone so determined to get ripped off.

So are Tuggers mean, or are we just presenting a reality that you don't want to face?

I wish you well, but I have zero hope that you will ever see a cent out of this deal!
 
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T_R_Oglodyte

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I just called AMEX to verify (thanks for the idea!). I can get a 100% refund through May 19th, which is more than enough time for me to figure out if this is for real or not. I encourage everyone else that has paid the upfront fees to do the same with their credit card company.
I can't help but note that you are now past the point at which you could count on Amex for a refund.

You say the money is in escrow. Have you actually seen an escrow statement?

******

I sincerely do hope that you get your money back. But so far this shows virtually every one of the traits that I have seen over the last ten years from outfits that have scammed people out of their money.

When you first started posting here, asking for help, we gave you help. We advised you to get out of that transaction while you could still contest the charges.

I guess that was not the "help" that you were looking for though. It appears to me that when you asked for help you really were asking for someone to give you some kind of emotional support in your decision to get involved with this situation. Then when we persisted in trying to help you by pointing out that we thought you were making a mistake, that is perceived as being mean???

******

As I said I hope you get your money back. I'm sure that I speak for most, if not all, of use when I say that we would be absolutely thrilled to be proven wrong in this case.

We do remain skeptical, though, especially as it now appears from another person involved in the deal that they are now asking more money in order to complete the transaction.
 
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DeniseM

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I asked the same question about the AMEX.

This was her first response:

I just called AMEX to verify (thanks for the idea!). I can get a 100% refund through May 19th, which is more than enough time for me to figure out if this is for real or not. I encourage everyone else that has paid the upfront fees to do the same with their credit card company.

After the deadline came and went, she [emailed me] that AMEX had told her that they would still investigate and refund her money after the deadline, if there was fraud involved.

BTW - I googled "Resorts Advantage" who are supposedly holding her funds in escrow, and they aren't a licensed escrow company - they are only licensed to sell timeshares.

They also have the same phone number and address as Mondavi Resorts. Which is part of the M Resorts Scam, which has been discussed on here for months.
 
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Stefa

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I'm not a shill, and yes, I'm posting from my work. I've gotten to the point where I'm cautious of even asking for advice on here because people are so mean. I thought the purpose of TUG was to help people with timeshare questions, not to poke fun at them. I've been genuinely disappointed by the reception I've had in this forum, especially because I've continued to be kind and courteous to everyone in spite of the repeated mockery.

The only reason I continue to post is because I know that there are a lot of people out there reading this chain that are in the same boat as I am with Sierra. I've had people PM me telling me "how brave I am" to keep posting to such a hostile forum, but I suppose someone has to step up and do it.

gomezlor,

I sincerely apologize if anything I said in this thread (or anywhere else here on TUG) came across as hostile. It was certainly not my intention to be mean or condescending.

Some dear friends of mine were scammed out of over $3000 by various upfront fee companies who promised they could get over $10,000 for their worthless timeshare. (It never did sell and they eventually declared bankruptcy.) I am very vocal about timeshare resale scams because they target desperate people who were already taken advantage of by the timeshare developers. I try my best to refute their lies so that others aren't taken advantage of. It was never my intention to insult you. I was only trying to point out why I did not believe Sierra was legitimate so that others who read this thread would not be taken in.
 
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T_R_Oglodyte

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It's also curious as to why they would wire transfer the money. Since there's a significant charge for wire transfers (it's probably going to cost them several thousand dollars in wire transfer fees), why would they be wiring the money instead of just sending checks? Doesn't make sense to me.
 

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Just reeling them in a little closer before asking for an additionmal $ 695 each . . . . .
 

Stefa

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Have you actually seen an escrow statement?

The first post in this thread contains some (very basic) contract language outlining the fees including $275 for escrow, however, there is no explanation of how the escrow is supposed to work. There is a statement about the fees being reimbursed at closing, but nothing about what is in the escrow account. The information from post #1 shows almost $800 in title costs (title search and title commitment) that the seller is agreeing to pay, so that money would not be placed in escrow. Honestly, I can't see what is supposedly in escrow, other than possibly the $100 resort transfer fee, that the seller could hope to recover. The escrow looks to be just another scam fee.
 

foreverloves

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I was actually thinking of this thread last night, came this morning to check. Thought the OP's money was supposed to be wire transferred by now.

I think the hostile vibe isn't really directed at the OP, except in that it seems more and more likely that s/he was scammed and is now beyond the time to do anything about it. And when you ask knowledgeable people here on TUG and they say "run, it's a scam!" and you don't...well, then there you go.

I do feel sorry for the OP (and I don't think s/he's a shill -- I apologize if it came off that way). I do feel badly. Some people very much want out of their timeshares, clearly, and will go to great lengths (and wait a long time!) to get their money.
 

aliikai2

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Any money yet?

What you and the others that have contacted you and perceived as Mean is simply the unvarnished truth.
It is like a parent attempting to correct a child to keep them from making a serious mistake, it is not mean or malicious, it is given in the hope of helping someone that hasn't yet seen clearly that they have been taken.

If you wanted someone to agree with you, even when over the years we have seen hundreds come here with the same type of problem, you should have gone somewhere that doesn't know anything about timeshares.

I would guess by now that you have not received a penny, that you have maybe even given them the additional Taxes they requested, and now you are still saddled with these units, and $5,000-$7,000 poorer.

The one thing that your posting has done is to hopefully prevent another trusting soul from making the same mistake.

Timeshares aren't bad, however many of the sellers, and scam artists are, and Sierra Rentals and Resales is certainly right up there with the worst.

fwiw,

Greg

I'm not a shill, and yes, I'm posting from my work. I've gotten to the point where I'm cautious of even asking for advice on here because people are so mean. I thought the purpose of TUG was to help people with timeshare questions, not to poke fun at them. I've been genuinely disappointed by the reception I've had in this forum, especially because I've continued to be kind and courteous to everyone in spite of the repeated mockery.

The only reason I continue to post is because I know that there are a lot of people out there reading this chain that are in the same boat as I am with Sierra. I've had people PM me telling me "how brave I am" to keep posting to such a hostile forum, but I suppose someone has to step up and do it.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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So I googled "Joy A Residence Club". What I found was interesting - or to be more precise, I should say that what I didn't find was interesting. And it raises the question ......

Does "Joy A Residence Club" Even Exist?

The only hits were from the Joy A Residence Club itself and comments from TUG and similar sites related to them buying up timeshare units. Nothing from the trade press, nothing from news stories, nothing from anywhere else. Nada. Zilch. Zippo. Nil.

The only presence of this organization on the web appears to be:

1. an amateurish website that would be an embarrassment to any legitimate business organization engaged in marketing and sales of a luxury item such as fractional ownership

2. message board discussions about them trying to assemble this bloc of timeshares that they are supposedly attempting to purchase.​

Now, this is purportedly an ongoing, active, functioning fractional ownership company with well-established operations and that is marketing high end, "real estate" ownership opportunities to wealthy English-speaking North Americans. This Club supposedly already owns properties, has members, and is expanding operations.

So I tried googling their name in conjunction with the properties where they claim they do have ownership. Nothing. No hits at all. There is nothing on the web, apart from their own website, that indicates they have any association at all with those properties. If they actually do own anything at all at these sites, no one else apparently knows it. One could easily conclude that their ownership at those developments is entirely fictional - my web certainly yielded no information that would counter that suggestion.

******

It's staggeringly implausible that an operation of the type they claim to be would be invisible on the web, except for their own website and some threaded discussions at relating to one timeshare repurchase project. I seriously question that there actually is a real fractional ownership entity known as the "Joy A Residence Club". That entity, whatever it might be, seems to me to be nothing more than a website that was created as part of a scam operation that is the subject of this thread.

The next step in the operation will likely occur when the operators of the scam perceive that it has gone on long enough and they can't get any more money out of the people they have lined up. At that point they will disappear, and the money will be gone.

The escrow provisions discussed above will not help - as pointed out most of the money that has been paid in "escrow" has been marked for services that don't involve holding money in trust - per the breakdown provided, almost all of the payments into "escrow" are funds that are earmarked for various transactional costs that could occur and would likely be paid prior to any settlement. And that even grants that an escrow exists. The posters above who have paid money in as part of this setup know that their cards have been charged, but none of them have reported seeing any kind of an escrow statement.

When the scam finally unravels and the victims ask for their money out of escrow, they will likely find that at best a fraction of what they paid actually went into any escrow account.

******

Is This a "Sting"?

The major difference between this operation and most of the scams we hear about is that this one is being run like a sting.

It wouldn't surprise me if they have close to 500 owners who think they are one of the 52. With the mandatory AI and resort expenses and the total collapse of the resale market for the resort, there are probably a large number of owners who want to get out. The prospect of not losing their shirts would be extremely enticing. It's likely that Velas Vallarta was used for this very reason - lots of presumably easy marks.

If my suppositions are correct and this is nothing but a scam or sting, I estimate they would get about $1500 average per participant. All of them will be in for the original payment, and the perps will get some more money out of their followup pitch that taxes are due and need to be paid. But certainly some fraction of the participants will drop out at that point.

If they do reel in an average of $1500 from each of 500 participants, their gross is going to be $750,000. I would guess their costs of running the scam are about $50,000 (creating the website, operating the phones, setting up the escrow operation, paying off any needed officials in Mexico to maintain the front?).

If I'm in the ballpark on my assumptions, the operators of this scam are going to walk away with about $700,000 for one year of work. If there are two people running this thing that's $300,000 each.

And if they've got more than 500 people on the hook their take is going to be even higher.
 
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siesta

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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true."
-Demosthenes

wow this thread was really hard to read, some of these people can be classified as one or a combination the following:

-extremely gullible
-extremely desperate
-a representative of the company in question

Denise couldn't be more clear in her posts, yet people want to simply ignore what she says and cling to anything that has the slightest chance of materializing to get them out of their predicament, however unlikely. It really is a shame people can't realize good advice when they read it, but I guess that is why we have so many of these scammers around in the first place.
 
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foreverloves

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@ T R: I really like your analysis and I think you really hit the nail on the head here. The length of time that this has been going on is suggestive of a sting to me, too.

I think of this thread often, but having not seen the OP return to announce a receipt of funds, I'm guessing that the OP still has not seen one dime. Perhaps now, s/he realizes that s/he was truly scammed, as many said would happen, and is unwilling to update for fear of the chorus of "I told you so's". I'm only sorry that the OP was so unwilling to heed the very sound advice s/he received here. Perhaps this thread will serve as warning to any more unwitting losers in another terrible scam. One can hope.
 

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She actually visited TUG on the 14th, but hasn't posted since the 7th.
 

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A few weeks ago, I did the same sort of research T R conducted, and I came up with exactly the same results. I also e-mailed the Luxury Fractional Guide (which has hundreds of fractional properties in their directory) to see if they knew anything about Joy. The editor said they have never dealt with Joy and have no information about them, so "do your homework" before proceeding. I didn't find any resales available for Joy, either. It is very hard to believe that in this market, they would not have anyone looking to sell a membership/fractional interest.

In addition, the FAQs and Fractional vs. Timeshare descriptions on their site are identical to those on other fractional ownership sites. They didn't even take the time to draft their own materials.

To me, the most questionable aspect of the process is the claim that they had to have all of the units under contract before they could close, as the buyer had to have one of each week. I believe they said that some people were getting "cold feet" because of threads like this one, so they had to find new owners to replace the ones who backed out. I call shenanigans on that. If they want to show this is legitimate and to keep people from getting cold feet and to secure all the units they could ever wish to purchase, all they have to do is close on a small portion of the units. If there were proof that people could sell their $100 timeshares for $15,000, I would snap up as many of those $100 bad boys as possible from eBay and resell them to Sierra/Joy for a ridiculous profit. The whole premise just doesn't make much sense, but I imagine that they are very smooth talkers and are extremely convincing. At the end of the day, if it sounds too good to be true....
 

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If they want to show this is legitimate and to keep people from getting cold feet and to secure all the units they could ever wish to purchase, all they have to do is close on a small portion of the units. If there were proof that people could sell their $100 timeshares for $15,000, I would snap up as many of those $100 bad boys as possible from eBay and resell them to Sierra/Joy for a ridiculous profit.

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to separate investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned. The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering returns other investments cannot guarantee, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the returns that a Ponzi scheme advertises and pays requires an ever-increasing flow of money from investors to keep the scheme going.

imho


ymmv
 
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