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Alleged trucker shortage

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I don't see anyone sitting at home accepting "free money". Tax credits are your money, not someone else's. As a whole, people have decided they want to make more so they can feed their families and keep a roof over their heads. Restaurants and other minimum-wage businesses have a shortage of people who want to work there. Trucking companies are finding their low-paid drivers (like myself) are going to companies that pay more. And companies/restaurants that are run by people without a good economics/business background are closing down because they don't know how to run a business when people demand $12/hour or higher.

Using Inflation, I did the math.
  • In the 1970s, our highest minimum wage in 2021 dollars was $11/hour.
  • In 1981 (in 2021 dollars), it was $10.08/hour.
  • In 1988 (in 2021 dollars), it was $7.75/hour ($3.35/hour then).
  • In 2000 (in 2021 dollars), it was $8.18/hour
  • In 2009 (in 2021 dollars), it was $9.25/hour
  • In 2019 (in 2021 dollars), it was $7.76/hour (last time it was raised)
  • Today, Minimum Wage is $7,25/hour.
That proves that the Minimum Wage - no matter what the Right-Wing says - is too low, and people are not willing to work that. It is Capitalism at work, demand for poverty wages is nonexistent so companies must pay more. So, trucking companies and others have a shortage of people willing to work low wages.

TS
 

am1

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I don't see anyone sitting at home accepting "free money". Tax credits are your money, not someone else's. As a whole, people have decided they want to make more so they can feed their families and keep a roof over their heads. Restaurants and other minimum-wage businesses have a shortage of people who want to work there. Trucking companies are finding their low-paid drivers (like myself) are going to companies that pay more. And companies/restaurants that are run by people without a good economics/business background are closing down because they don't know how to run a business when people demand $12/hour or higher.

Using Inflation, I did the math.
  • In the 1970s, our highest minimum wage in 2021 dollars was $11/hour.
  • In 1981 (in 2021 dollars), it was $10.08/hour.
  • In 1988 (in 2021 dollars), it was $7.75/hour ($3.35/hour then).
  • In 2000 (in 2021 dollars), it was $8.18/hour
  • In 2009 (in 2021 dollars), it was $9.25/hour
  • In 2019 (in 2021 dollars), it was $7.76/hour (last time it was raised)
  • Today, Minimum Wage is $7,25/hour.
That proves that the Minimum Wage - no matter what the Right-Wing says - is too low, and people are not willing to work that. It is Capitalism at work, demand for poverty wages is nonexistent so companies must pay more. So, trucking companies and others have a shortage of people willing to work low wages.

TS
Why not get rid of the minimum wage altogether. Let the market decide what it is and it would vary between areas, jobs and years.
 

mentalbreak

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Training carriers like CRST, Werner Enterprises, CR England, etc are screaming that they need drivers, so they got the American Trucking Association to petition Congress to allow 18-20 year old kids to drive nationwide AND to allow drivers who only have a temporary CDL permit to drive without a trainer in the passenger seat. All so they can pay drivers so little, which also saves shippers (distribution centers, factories, etc) money.

So, any time you hear "trucker shortage", know that it is a shortage of drivers willing to be paid little.

This scares the heck out of me.
Thanks for the heads up on which carriers may even be less experienced.

We have a family connection to the two people killed in this incident. Apparently the driver initially struck a different car, then continued for a mile before causing this second incident that killed a beloved college professor and his 7yo on the way to their first big college football game together. So senseless.

https://statepatrol.nebraska.gov/florida-man-arrested-following-multi-fatality-crash-saturday-i-80
 
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troy12n

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My brother in law is an owner operator. After expenses he earns over $150,000 a year working 4 days a week hauling fruit to California and produce back to Washington. He says he is full time but he only drives about 30 weeks in a good year. He pretty much takes winters off and travels in a new Ford F350 dually with a new camper pulling his Jeep Wrangler Rubicon.

Bill

Your brother in law has the unicorn of trucking jobs. Most people making that much are OTR for days and weeks at a time. Most reliable scheduled jobs are local runs or dray jobs which, on average pay a lot less than OTR.

When competing against free money to stay at home no industry is safe. Everyone wants a higher wage or happy to collect mail box money. Or direct deposit money. [politica/deleted]

This is the single biggest lie coming from [deleted]... the myth of people "staying home from work and getting paid for doing nothing".

Please, this tired lie is really getting log in the tooth,. [deleted] Florida stopped all federal unemployment benefits in June, our State unemployment only lasts 6 weeks, which long since ran out for everyone "sitting home". Guess what, labor shortage not any better, but this lie keeps getting perpetuated
 
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troy12n

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The issue as I see it, as someone who used to be employed by the railroads, and still have friends there, is the ports are backed up because of a combination of longshoremen shortage at the ports (a lot of them DIED from covid, and some of them are cycling on and off work because of covid) then there IS a shortage of dray drivers, and container trailers as well as 20 and 40 foot international containers.

For those of you who don't know this, all the goods which come to the US from abroad travel in container ships to US ports in 20 or (mostly) 40 foot containers.

These containers are offloaded from the ships by longshoremen. They offload them onto giant stacks in ports off the ships. Then a separate team loads the containers onto special truck trailer chassis to be taken to inland customs warehouses where they are inspected and re-loaded into 53 foot "domestic" containers (taken by the railroads on "stack trains", or into 53 foot over the road trailers

Then days later it ends up somewhere else to be dealt with, usually some other warehouse.

This is very high level, but there are 50+ ships right now waiting to be unloaded at the port of LA/Long beach, similar numbers at Oakland/San Fran and a smaller number in Seattle/Portland.

The crafts are backed up at every level. Some of that is because they are having trouble finding people, but it sure as hell isnt because "people not wanting to work", these people are very high payed. In some cases it's people aren't wanting to work long hours, and being gone from family for weeks on end. Quality of life issues...
 

T-Dot-Traveller

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The issue as I see it, as someone who used to be employed by the railroads, and still have friends there, is the ports are backed up because of a combination of longshoremen shortage at the ports (a lot of them DIED from covid, and some of them are cycling on and off work because of covid) then there IS a shortage of dray drivers, and container trailers as well as 20 and 40 foot international containers.

For those of you who don't know this, all the goods which come to the US from abroad travel in container ships to US ports in 20 or (mostly) 40 foot containers.

These containers are offloaded from the ships by longshoremen. They offload them onto giant stacks in ports off the ships. Then a separate team loads the containers onto special truck trailer chassis to be taken to inland customs warehouses where they are inspected and re-loaded into 53 foot "domestic" containers (taken by the railroads on "stack trains", or into 53 foot over the road trailers

Then days later it ends up somewhere else to be dealt with, usually some other warehouse.

This is very high level, but there are 50+ ships right now waiting to be unloaded at the port of LA/Long beach, similar numbers at Oakland/San Fran and a smaller number in Seattle/Portland.

The crafts are backed up at every level. Some of that is because they are having trouble finding people, but it sure as hell isnt because "people not wanting to work", these people are very high payed. In some cases it's people aren't wanting to work long hours, and being gone from family for weeks on end. Quality of life issues...

In Canada - the port of Vancouver become backlogged in late June / July due to the wild fires in British Columbia. The fires shut down in BC most east-west rail lines of CN & CP.
I believe for the most part this was resolved by mid August .

It does show how our infrastructure is complex and interdependent on many factors.
 
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Ralph Sir Edward

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Your brother in law has the unicorn of trucking jobs. Most people making that much are OTR for days and weeks at a time. Most reliable scheduled jobs are local runs or dray jobs which, on average pay a lot less than OTR.



This is the single biggest lie coming from [deleted]... the myth of people "staying home from work and getting paid for doing nothing".

Please, this tired lie is really getting log in the tooth,. [deleted]here in Florida stopped all federal unemployment benefits in June, our State unemployment only lasts 6 weeks, which long since ran out for everyone "sitting home". Guess what, labor shortage not any better, but this lie keeps getting perpetuated

Troy12h, it varies from state to state. Florida is the cheapest. Other were much more magnanimous. Texas (where I reside) pays the common 26 weeks in unemployment (for those eligible for the maximum duration - there is a prior work based formula). The maximum that could have been paid out here would be right at $70,000 over an 18 month period, or an average of around $3900 a month. (For a single person with no children.)

And yes, it was possible to go from the first day of expanded benefits (March 27th, 2020) to the end of the benefits in Texas (September 11, 2021), without a break.
 
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troy12n

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What "free money"? The federal, pandemic unemployment benefits ran out a month ago. But maybe people are reevaluating both their worth and what they actually want to do for how much.
Troy12h, it varies from state to state. Florida is the cheapest. Other were much more magnanimous. Texas (where I reside) pays the common 26 weeks in unemployment (for those eligible for the maximum duration - there is a prior work based formula). The maximum that could have been paid out here would be right at $70,000 over an 18 month period, or an average of around $3900 a month. (For a single person with no children.)

And yes, it was possible to go from the first day of expanded benefits (March 27th, 2020) to the end of the benefits in Texas (September 11, 2021), without a break.

Well, a couple things on that

1. That's accurate that the length of benefits does vary by state
2. But the amount of compensation is formulamatic based on a persons income. For instance, it is a percentage of the person's previous income. Your example of 70k in unemployment, if theoretically possible over 18 months would have to be based on someone with an income likely over 150k annually.
3. Longshoremen, railroad engineers/conductors and even brakemen make WELL over 70k/18 months. They aren't sitting home to do nothing and make 1/3 of their normal take home pay, lose their benefits (railroad retirement, etc if it applies).
4. My comments were mainly about the "getting paid to sit home and do nothing" narrative the right has been propagating for the past couple of years. Your average grocery store worker, or waitress, or fast food worker isn't sitting at home just getting paid, because in almost all cases, that gravy train ran out long ago, And highly paid, highly skilled people even moreso. They aren't sitting home doing nothing, letting their skills and marketability diminish with every day they aren't on the job so they can "do nothing" and get "paid" 1/4 to 1/3 what they were making before, with no benefits... that's just ridiculous to even suggest that

Now, I will concede that, especially amongst the younger generation, especially teenagers, there's something that has to be done because their work ethic absolutely sucks. I am in a position to hire and lead a team at my current company and holy cow, the young people are really lazy and entitled (generalizing), I also have kids, one of which is working age and in college, and won't... he thinks some work is beneath him.

That's a whole other story..
 

bogey21

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My comments were mainly about the "getting paid to sit home and do nothing" narrative

I'm not sure all those living on unemployment comp or childcare benefits are sitting home doing nothing. I suspect many are supplementing these benefits working off the grid for cash...

George
 

CalGalTraveler

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Classic supply and demand. Sad that they are turning to government regulations to support wages that are below market instead of increasing wages. The Fed Covid unemployment bonuses are over as of Sept. People are now looking for jobs, rethinking jobs, and finding higher paying alternatives.

What this will incent will be more rapid adoption of driverless trucks. Rather than whining about wages, they should pay up and innovate their way out of this.
 

Ralph Sir Edward

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Well, a couple things on that

1. That's accurate that the length of benefits does vary by state
2. But the amount of compensation is formulamatic based on a persons income. For instance, it is a percentage of the person's previous income. Your example of 70k in unemployment, if theoretically possible over 18 months would have to be based on someone with an income likely over 150k annually.
3. Longshoremen, railroad engineers/conductors and even brakemen make WELL over 70k/18 months. They aren't sitting home to do nothing and make 1/3 of their normal take home pay, lose their benefits (railroad retirement, etc if it applies).
4. My comments were mainly about the "getting paid to sit home and do nothing" narrative the right has been propagating for the past couple of years. Your average grocery store worker, or waitress, or fast food worker isn't sitting at home just getting paid, because in almost all cases, that gravy train ran out long ago, And highly paid, highly skilled people even moreso. They aren't sitting home doing nothing, letting their skills and marketability diminish with every day they aren't on the job so they can "do nothing" and get "paid" 1/4 to 1/3 what they were making before, with no benefits... that's just ridiculous to even suggest that

Now, I will concede that, especially amongst the younger generation, especially teenagers, there's something that has to be done because their work ethic absolutely sucks. I am in a position to hire and lead a team at my current company and holy cow, the young people are really lazy and entitled (generalizing), I also have kids, one of which is working age and in college, and won't... he thinks some work is beneath him.

That's a whole other story..
It was not a theoretical case, it's real. I know, as I am the case. . .

I was (emphasis on was) a skilled mainframe programmer, planning to retire Jan 2021, using pre-planned saving to bridge a year to taking Social Security in 2022. I was laid off at the start of the COVID crisis, exactly on March 27th, 2020. Between stimulus money, unemployment with Federal extensions, extra, unemployment top offs at various periods, and the cash value of the 6 months COBRA and the tax money saved by 10,600 2020 tax exemption, it all added up to around $70,000. I currently have no cash flow, but plenty of reserves until Social Insecurity kicks in, in 2022. It has been good training for retirement, as my cash flow in retirement will be a little more than $3900/mo.

Selah. . .
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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Econ 101, at least in my sophomore year of college. When demand exceeds supply, prices rise to reduce demand and stimulate more supply. There is no such thing as a "shortage" of any resource, except when factors intervene to prevent prices from rising sufficiently to decrease demand and increase supply, usually the government in the form of price controls.

***************

I recall the "natural gas" shortage of about 20 years ago. In the short term, there was a large price spike, that led to great consternation. In response to the price hike, new supplies were brought on line, but more importantly natural gas users (particularly industries) adjusted facilities and operations to use less gas.

Several clients I am involved have standing lists of capital projects that would be nice to do, but fall just short meeting ROI targets. Many of these projects are energy-savings projects. They promptly revisited those project lists, and moved forward on a number of projects that met the ROI requirements based on the higher price of natural gas.

In the long run, dependence on natural gas was reduced, while new supplies were coming on line, and we moved into a natural gas glut. That glut has made it easier and practical to downsize or retire facilities using dirtier fuels, such as coal and heavy oil.
 
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Now is a great opportunity to get some of these many shipments off the roads and onto the rails!
Between 2017-2019, I drove for Schneider Intermodal. We would take containers to rail yards to be shipped cross-country, or we picked up containers to deliver to a distribution center. But, the problem is not how inexpensive rails are, it is a lack of infrastructure. America would need to build thousands more miles of tracks to be able to handle a higher number of trains needed to carry more containers, and rail companies like CSX and BNSF would need to buy more "cars" to haul the increased number of containers. Unlike a tractor-trailer, it takes at least 4 days longer to get a loaded container from shipper to receiver.

Case in point: when I worked out of Chicago in 2017, a container was loaded in New Jersey going to Oakland CA for Amazon. Well, Amazon needed it sooner (it was delayed at the port in NJ for some reason), so the container was unloaded in Chicago, I picked it up and took it to Lincoln NE, where a "team" took it to Oakland. Does this happen a lot? With trains being loaded to the max, and many loaded containers needing to wait as a result, rail is not the answer.

TS
 

easyrider

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Your brother in law has the unicorn of trucking jobs. Most people making that much are OTR for days and weeks at a time. Most reliable scheduled jobs are local runs or dray jobs which, on average pay a lot less than OTR.

He schedules his own runs and doesn't use a broker. I once asked him why he hasn't expanded his trucking company and he said that is how you loose money. He really didn't explain why but I think it must be due to taxes and dealing with employees.

Bill
 

troy12n

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Now is a great opportunity to get some of these many shipments off the roads and onto the rails!

It would be, but current management at the railroads is more interested in shrinking the number of employees, cutting the number of trains on the road (creating mega trains 15,000 feet long) which has contributed to the problem. PTC and it's growing pains, coupled with the mega trains is contributing.

But the bigger issue is, the railroads don't want the short intermodal runs. Because they have to pay a crew a basic day and for under a certain number of miles, they seemingly are not interested in the traffic. Especially when they are in the shrinking labor mode they are right now.

I could go into this for hours, but not sure it's the time or the place. Plainly put the railroads want only long-haul "unit" traffic at this point, everything else they have been actively trying to send to trucks for years.
 

dayooper

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My daughter and son have taken advantage of the situation to better their position. As a recent college graduate, my daughter found a great job in her field (she’s very talented and, when her portfolio gets a little bigger, she will strike out on her own). She named her terms and t HGVCe company didn’t even negotiate. My son is a high school senior, but he’s 18. He’s found a server position at Olive Garden and is raking in the tips. You can find money when those that won’t.
 

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....But the bigger issue is, the railroads don't want the short intermodal runs. Because they have to pay a crew a basic day and for under a certain number of miles, they seemingly are not interested in the traffic.....

......... Plainly put the railroads want only long-haul "unit" traffic at this point, everything else they have been actively trying to send to trucks for years.
And what they haven't send to trucks - they have sold off to short haul lines / specialty owners.
I am sure staffing -labour rules were part of the reason to get rid of many "branch lines" .
 

troy12n

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Between 2017-2019, I drove for Schneider Intermodal. We would take containers to rail yards to be shipped cross-country, or we picked up containers to deliver to a distribution center. But, the problem is not how inexpensive rails are, it is a lack of infrastructure. America would need to build thousands more miles of tracks to be able to handle a higher number of trains needed to carry more containers, and rail companies like CSX and BNSF would need to buy more "cars" to haul the increased number of containers. Unlike a tractor-trailer, it takes at least 4 days longer to get a loaded container from shipper to receiver.

Case in point: when I worked out of Chicago in 2017, a container was loaded in New Jersey going to Oakland CA for Amazon. Well, Amazon needed it sooner (it was delayed at the port in NJ for some reason), so the container was unloaded in Chicago, I picked it up and took it to Lincoln NE, where a "team" took it to Oakland. Does this happen a lot? With trains being loaded to the max, and many loaded containers needing to wait as a result, rail is not the answer.

TS

The issue isn't rails, currently it's yards and crews and the mega trains. I can explain in a little more detail, adding on to my last post.

As you know, there are for all intents and purposed 4 railroads in America. UP and BNSF in the West and NS and CSX in the East. And 2 in Canada, CP and CN which share pretty much everything coast to coast in Canada.

BNSF and UP take everything they get from the West coast ports (mainly LA/Long Beach and Oakland) and sent MOST of it to Chicago. A smaller percentage interchanges in St. Louis, Memphis or New Orleans. But most of it goes to Chicago. Traffic East to West which can originate in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, Jacksonville, Savannah, Norfolk/Newport News, Baltimore or NY/NJ (and to a much lesser extent a handful of other ports like Tampa, Wilmington, Charleston, Boston, Philly) goes largely through Chicago as well.

Chicago is the nation's rail bottleneck. UP or BNSF have to interchange with CSX or NS and to do so, they either yard their trains, re-block them to send to either railroad, or send them to BRC (Belt Railway of Chicago) which acts like a huge freight terminal, taking inbound trains from any railroad, and re-blocking them for interchange FOR the class 1's. This is called "steel wheel transfer".

The other way they do it is to yard the train, transfer the stacks off the well cars to trailers, and dray them across town to another railroad, which then loads them back onto wells and block them into a train heading to NY/NJ, Jacksonville or some other location...

This process of interchanging in Chicago has ALWAYS been slow and problematic. But add in crews shortages, chassis shortages and container shortages, things go to hell fast. Trains heading both ways are being held out on the main for in some cases DAYS waiting to make it into Chicago. Let alone being re-blocked or unloaded to be drayed to another carrier.

So that's Chicago and the nightmare that it is.

But above and beyond that, you now have situations where intermodal, which used to be short (5000-8000 ft), fast trains are now 12000-15000 ft in an effort to save crews. Any time an issue arises en-route it takes longer to troubleshoot. These longer intermodals are also competing with the longer (now 15000+ feet) mixed freight or unit freight (coal, grain, etc) trains, they seemingly no longer have priority and sometimes sit "in the hole" waiting for another, longer train to pass because the other train wouldn't fit in the siding.

There's a lot of things at play. The bottom line is the railroads COULD take the traffic, but in an effort to be as proffitable as possible, they are cutting crews, running trains way too long.

And, if you think this is bad, the carriers are pushing for 1 man crews, which is going to make it a complete mess out there. I feel bad for railroaders and i'm glad i'm not in the industry anymore
 

troy12n

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And what they haven't send to trucks - they have sold off to short haul lines / specialty owners.
I am sure staffing -labour rules were part of the reason to get rid of many "branch lines" .

Well, that's the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about. Labor and unions have historically not done themselves any favors. See: 5 man crews up to 1983 or whenever it was... rail unions blocking mergers in the 1970's which caused some of the railroads (Rock Island, EL, Milw) to just go bankrupt. A lot of those jobs lost anyway, btw...

Management isn't completely to blame for this, there's some share of the blame to go around the various crafts and unions. Just wait till 1 man crews!
 

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The issue isn't rails, currently it's yards and crews and the mega trains. I can explain in a little more detail, adding on to my last post.

As you know, there are for all intents and purposed 4 railroads in America. UP and BNSF in the West and NS and CSX in the East. And 2 in Canada, CP and CN which share pretty much everything coast to coast in Canada.

BNSF and UP take everything they get from the West coast ports (mainly LA/Long Beach and Oakland) and sent MOST of it to Chicago. A smaller percentage interchanges in St. Louis, Memphis or New Orleans. But most of it goes to Chicago. Traffic East to West which can originate in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, Jacksonville, Savannah, Norfolk/Newport News, Baltimore or NY/NJ (and to a much lesser extent a handful of other ports like Tampa, Wilmington, Charleston, Boston, Philly) goes largely through Chicago as well.

Chicago is the nation's rail bottleneck. UP or BNSF have to interchange with CSX or NS and to do so, they either yard their trains, re-block them to send to either railroad, or send them to BRC (Belt Railway of Chicago) which acts like a huge freight terminal, taking inbound trains from any railroad, and re-blocking them for interchange FOR the class 1's. This is called "steel wheel transfer".

The other way they do it is to yard the train, transfer the stacks off the well cars to trailers, and dray them across town to another railroad, which then loads them back onto wells and block them into a train heading to NY/NJ, Jacksonville or some other location...

This process of interchanging in Chicago has ALWAYS been slow and problematic. But add in crews shortages, chassis shortages and container shortages, things go to hell fast. Trains heading both ways are being held out on the main for in some cases DAYS waiting to make it into Chicago. Let alone being re-blocked or unloaded to be drayed to another carrier.

So that's Chicago and the nightmare that it is.

But above and beyond that, you now have situations where intermodal, which used to be short (5000-8000 ft), fast trains are now 12000-15000 ft in an effort to save crews. Any time an issue arises en-route it takes longer to troubleshoot. These longer intermodals are also competing with the longer (now 15000+ feet) mixed freight or unit freight (coal, grain, etc) trains, they seemingly no longer have priority and sometimes sit "in the hole" waiting for another, longer train to pass because the other train wouldn't fit in the siding.

There's a lot of things at play. The bottom line is the railroads COULD take the traffic, but in an effort to be as proffitable as possible, they are cutting crews, running trains way too long.

And, if you think this is bad, the carriers are pushing for 1 man crews, which is going to make it a complete mess out there. I feel bad for railroaders and i'm glad i'm not in the industry anymore
You didn't mention Seattle-Tacoma. As I understand, there is a confluence of factors in play here. For years the big advantage that Seattle/Tacoma had was that it is about two days less ship time to reach the Pacific Northwest from Asia. So if you want to get the goods off the ship and rolling to the east coast ASAP, Seattle was the place to go. I understand that much of that advantage has been squandered.

One is lack of space. The port commissioners have placed a priority on real estate development, at the expense of land needed for shipyard activities. Particularly, there is a shortage of laydown areas for containers.

A second factor is City imposed restrictions on train operations, particularly with regard to length of blockages at grade street crossings. This throttles the ability to move containers out of the Part area. Instead of being able to assemble long trains and have the cranes place containers directly on train cars, the cranes have to wait for new rail cars to be positioned, for laydown space to become available, or to load containers on trucks that move the containers to another staging area. Basically, Seattle and Tacoma basically twiddled their thumbs while the Alameda corridor was being built in Los Angeles. I would blame our politicians, but we elected them. And we have substantial interest groups that would do everything they could to block such a project for various reasons.

Finally both main east-west rail routes (Stevens Pass and Stampede Pass) have tunnels under the Cascade Summit. The tunnels do not have enough clearance to accommodate double-stacking using the newest and largest size shipping containers. So for many of the ships that are stuck outside San Pedro and Long Beach, rerouting to Seattle is simply not an option since the Northwest can't handle the large containers.

That's what I have picked up and pieced together from various sources of information - financial news stories and news stories from engineering societies that are involved with these types of infrastructure projects (such as American Society of Civil Engineers). With your apparent inside information on the industry, it would be get get your comments.
 

PigsDad

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Just wait till 1 man crews!
If there is one mode of transportation that could be completely automated and autonomous, I would think trains would be it. What does a crew on a train do that could not be centrally automated? We're getting closer and closer with cars, and the variables of auto travel on roads is probably several orders of magnitude greater vs. rail travel.

Kurt
 
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