Alleged Service Dogs at Desert Springs Villas

[bazzap]

This isn’t about compensating anybody for anything. It’s about acknowledging that businesses that hold out accommodations to the public need to make those accommodations reasonably accessible to all members of the public, including those with disabilities.

The cost of accommodating service animals is essentially zero. It’s a reasonable accommodation that allows someone with a service animal to use your property where they would otherwise be unable to do so. The guest remains responsible for damage just as every guest is. Where is the cost to accommodate service animals? There is no cost. (If a property isn’t vacuuming and thoroughly cleaning every room between guests, regardless whether or not there was a service animal there, that’s not a property I want to stay in.)

At some MVC resorts (perhaps all?) they certainly claim to do a much deeper clean when animals have stayed in a room.
I very much hope that they do to, for all those of us who suffer from animal allergies.
This definitely has a cost, which has to be picked up by someone.
Quite rightly, genuine service dog owners should not be charged for this.
Equally rightly pet owners, falsely claiming their pets are service animals, should be charged for this, fees being ~$250-300+
Personally I would go further and issue them a final warning, with any repeat resulting in a total ban.

 

[dioxide45]

Personally I would go further and issue them a final warning, with any repeat resulting in a total ban.

Bans can only go so far. I don't think they can ever ban you from your home resort. At least not with deeded ownership in the USA. I know some Disney people how have had trespass bans from Walt Disney World can still use their DCV points at their home resort only. I read the smoking policy for Westgate Resorts where it mentions being trespassed from a resort if found to be smoking pot. Sadly, it isn't enforced I don't recall ever seeing such a policy at any MVC resorts or within the MVC Exchange Procedures.

 

[BJRSanDiego]

This isn’t about compensating anybody for anything. It’s about acknowledging that businesses that hold out accommodations to the public need to make those accommodations reasonably accessible to all members of the public, including those with disabilities.

The cost of accommodating service animals is essentially zero. It’s a reasonable accommodation that allows someone with a service animal to use your property where they would otherwise be unable to do so. The guest remains responsible for damage just as every guest is. Where is the cost to accommodate service animals? There is no cost. (If a property isn’t vacuuming and thoroughly cleaning every room between guests, regardless whether or not there was a service animal there, that’s not a property I want to stay in.)

I'm not sure, but I think that when they catch someone who sneaked in a pet that they do a deep cleaning including shampooing the carpets. Most Marriotts use 3rd party carpet cleaners.

 

[dioxide45]

I'm not sure, but I think that when they catch someone who sneaked in a pet that they do a deep cleaning including shampooing the carpets. Most Marriotts use 3rd party carpet cleaners.

But I don't think they do the same thing with a service animal? The impact on the room isn't necessarily any different.

 

[BJRSanDiego]

But I don't think they do the same thing with a service animal? The impact on the room isn't necessarily any different.

From a logic perspective, if they need to shampoo a carpet because someone sneaked in a pet, then they should also shampoo the carpet after a service animal.

My wife has severe allergies and gets into distress over night if there is/was an animal in the room.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I recall reading a news story about an attorney somewhere who would pay disabled to go to certain establishments and find violations of ADA. Like no ramps, not enough room to get around inside a store. The attorney would then send a threatening letter and get the establishment to pay a bunch of money in civil penalties.

That’s actually fairly common, unfortunately.

 

[easyrider]

The guest remains responsible for damage just as every guest is. Where is the cost to accommodate service animals? There is no cost.

That is absolutely false, especially when many of the service animals aren't anything more than someones untrained pets. The big difference is the training and it's easy to see the difference.

The cost have to do with cleaning a room to be rid of any presence of the animal for future guest. A deep cleaning costs twice as much as a regular cleaning regarding hotel rooms. About 10% of all people are allergic to animals and about 30% of asthma patients are severely allergic to animals. The higher levels of cleaning and expensive equipment used to mitigate the animals presence reduce the profit margin.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Why is it BS? Would you suggest that all disabled people pay a premium to occupy a room? A service dog is an aid to assist someone with their disability, for most people their presence is non negotiable, they need that dog like some people need a wheelchair or other disability aid. I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't advocate charging people extra to have their wheelchair with them.

It's bs because of the legal abuse of the regulations perpetrated on accommodation facilities. Many dogs are for emotional support meaning they are pets not recognized by the ADA regulation but are recognized as ESA and rules vary by state. It's a bit of an exaggeration to compare the ESA and actual trained service animals.

I'm for real service dogs and certified ESA but against a pet for emotional support being thought of as the same thing with the same protections under regulations.

Bill

 

[daviator]

It's bs because of the legal abuse of the regulations perpetrated on accommodation facilities. Many dogs are for emotional support meaning they are pets not recognized by the ADA regulation but are recognized as ESA and rules vary by state. It's a bit of an exaggeration to compare the ESA and actual trained service animals.

I'm for real service dogs and certified ESA but against a pet for emotional support being thought of as the same thing with the same protections under regulations.

Bill

I don’t believe that emotional support dogs are allowed at MVC properties. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t scofflaws who bring them in. I believe the ADA allows businesses to ask what service(s) the assistance animal is trained to provide, and I wish they’d do so and turn away folks with animals which are not true service animals.

As for the need to “deep clean” after a guest with a service animal, I strongly doubt that happens regularly or often, especially since management is rarely even going to know that a service animal has been there. If there are factors requiring a deep clean, I’d call that damage that should be billed to the guests causing it.

 

[easyrider]

I don’t believe that emotional support dogs are allowed at MVC properties. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t scofflaws who bring them in. I believe the ADA allows businesses to ask what service(s) the assistance animal is trained to provide, and I wish they’d do so and turn away folks with animals which are not true service animals.

As for the need to “deep clean” after a guest with a service animal, I strongly doubt that happens regularly or often, especially since management is rarely even going to know that a service animal has been there. If there are factors requiring a deep clean, I’d call that damage that should be billed to the guests causing it.

The way it is now is you can take any dog into any hotel and you wouldn't have to prove anything. The hotel isn't allowed to even ask in most states. The ADA fines to the hotel are very high and not covered under the insurance policy.

If a guest breaks the no pet policy they can be subject to the hotel guest penalty regarding pets. This is why people register their dogs at check in. If you register the dog at check in or violate the no pet policy which is often noticed on cameras, the management would order the deep cleaning at nice hotels.

Bill

 

[ljmiii]

I believe the ADA allows businesses to ask what service(s) the assistance animal is trained to provide, and I wish they’d do so and turn away folks with animals which are not true service animals....

Frequently Asked Questions about Service Animals and the ADA

This document provides guidance and answers about the ADA’s service animal provisions.

www.ada.gov

Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?
A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.

Q8. Do service animals have to wear a vest or patch or special harness identifying them as service animals?
A. No. The ADA does not require service animals to wear a vest, ID tag, or specific harness.

As @easyrider wrote, ESA protections vary by state. In California the protections for owners and their ESAs are more or less equivalent to ADA service animals - particularly for travelers and tenants.

 

[Pompey Family]

It's bs because of the legal abuse of the regulations perpetrated on accommodation facilities. Many dogs are for emotional support meaning they are pets not recognized by the ADA regulation but are recognized as ESA and rules vary by state. It's a bit of an exaggeration to compare the ESA and actual trained service animals.

I'm for real service dogs and certified ESA but against a pet for emotional support being thought of as the same thing with the same protections under regulations.

Bill

Now you're putting forward a separate argument. As someone with a formally trained and accredited service dog why should I be expected to pay more to stay at a property with my dog simply because some people abuse the system?

I know that people consider it strange that staff are not allowed to ask questions surrounding the dog's tasks and why it's required but there's a good reason for it. I think many people would be surprised at the sorts of questions people with service dogs are asked. I have had complete strangers come up to me and ask the most personal and intrusive questions, questions that they would never dream of asking anyone else. The vast majority of the time it's done out of genuine curiosity rather than an accusatory challenge but that doesn't make it any less uncomfortable and unwanted. I don't want to explain to someone why I have a service dog (although her jacket has a rather obvious clue on it), or what she does for me, the fact that she is wearing her jacket is sufficient for anyone to know that she's a service dog. I do have a formal ID for her and I'm happy to show anyone if they want proof of her status however there's no legal requirement for me to provide it. To date no-one has ever asked me to produce ID for her, I suspect her demeanor and her jacket is sufficient proof. I have experienced occasions when business owners have tried to refuse me entry to their establishment usually restaurants or food stores but a quick mention about the UK Disability and Equality Act and the potential £10k fine always helps to change their attitude.

I get angry about fake service dogs, more so than non service dog owners, because it serves only to create distrust against genuine service dogs and their owners. I get frustrated about the proliferation of service dog vests that can be bought online however it does also mean that it's often easy to spot a fake service dog. The charity that supports me has their jackets produced by a major dog wear company and has the charity logo embroidered on it, the ones from Amazon and the like are simply generic. Reputable organisations typically aim for accreditation with Assistance Dogs International and a quick look at some of the organisations accredited with them show that the majority of the jackets the dogs wear display the name and logo of the organisation making it easy to determine that they are genuine service dogs.

 

[loosefeet]

I was at one of the WorldMark buildings in San Diego, and a woman went by pushing a stroller with her little dog to the elevator. I asked the receptionist about this, and she just said "oh, I didn't see it." Dogs just seem to be every where, and often no challenge because it's just way too common.

 

[easyrider]

Now you're putting forward a separate argument. As someone with a formally trained and accredited service dog why should I be expected to pay more to stay at a property with my dog simply because some people abuse the system?

I didn't say that a disabled person should pay more but that a business should be compensated. The point is business should be compensated for the ADA requirement. Businesses should get a write off instead of facing huge fines which are the current compliance incentive. It's crazy that a non-service dog, under the guise of service dog, can shed all over a unit and the unit require twice or more the cleaning cost and the business has to absorb this cost and pass it on to other guests. Often times a service dog can be a medical deduction on the owners taxes. Why can't businesses claim a deduction for accommodating service animals ?

Service animal rights do not trump other guests rights. As you know, service animal are required by the ADA to be attended at all times and leashed in public areas. Service animal rights do not trump those guests with medical conditions.

Bill

 

[Hindsite]

Why can't businesses claim a deduction for accommodating service animals ?

Aren't all costs, including villa cleaning, a deduction from revenues and then tax is charged after that?

 

[vacationtime1]

Aren't all costs, including villa cleaning, a deduction from revenues and then tax is charged after that?

Of course those costs are tax deductible.

 

[daviator]

I didn't say that a disabled person should pay more but that a business should be compensated. The point is business should be compensated for the ADA requirement. Businesses should get a write off instead of facing huge fines which are the current compliance incentive. It's crazy that a non-service dog, under the guise of service dog, can shed all over a unit and the unit require twice or more the cleaning cost and the business has to absorb this cost and pass it on to other guests. Often times a service dog can be a medical deduction on the owners taxes. Why can't businesses claim a deduction for accommodating service animals ?

Service animal rights do not trump other guests rights. As you know, service animal are required by the ADA to be attended at all times and leashed in public areas. Service animal rights do not trump those guests with medical conditions.

Bill

Your point seems to be that disabled guests with service animals are burdensome to properties where they stay, and that somebody (it isn’t clear who) should “compensate” those properties for the burden of dealing with disabled guests. Should they also be compensated for the cost of building wheelchair ramps and elevators?

I strongly doubt that the costs associated with disabled guests, including those with service animals, are any different, collectively, than the costs associated with other guests. In fact, I’m willing to bet that the guests whose stays result in the costliest cleaning expenses are neither disabled nor have accompanying animals.

Accommodating guests of all abilities is a basic cost of doing business. As others have pointed out, those costs are ordinary business deductions.

 

[easyrider]

Your point seems to be that disabled guests with service animals are burdensome to properties where they stay, and that somebody (it isn’t clear who) should “compensate” those properties for the burden of dealing with disabled guests. Should they also be compensated for the cost of building wheelchair ramps and elevators?

I strongly doubt that the costs associated with disabled guests, including those with service animals, are any different, collectively, than the costs associated with other guests. In fact, I’m willing to bet that the guests whose stays result in the costliest cleaning expenses are neither disabled nor have accompanying animals.

Accommodating guests of all abilities is a basic cost of doing business. As others have pointed out, those costs are ordinary business deductions.

Is that what you really think ? Let me spell it out as it seems some of you don't get it. There is nothing wrong with a person with a disability having a service animal when they comply with ADA regulations. I agree that this is a normal business cost. However, there is a cost to the business when the ADA regulation is abused and this abuse is paid for by the business. It isn't a normal business cost as it is fraud.

Bill

 

[CO skier]

I was at one of the WorldMark buildings in San Diego, and a woman went by pushing a stroller with her little dog to the elevator. I asked the receptionist about this, and she just said "oh, I didn't see it."

In the Land of Insanity, some sort of "Dog Rights" bill would be no surprise in the not too distant future.

I will not ever vacation in California again, because it is no longer even "a nice place to visit" -- much less live there. The dogs-can-go-everywhere attitude is just one of a multitude of reasons. A bigger reason is the outrageous stick-it-to-the-tourists taxes. $145/week "lodging" taxes for a 1 bedroom? fuggetaboutit! I will go to Utah or Arizona where there are zero "lodging" taxes on my reservations, and I hope those states continue to appreciate the golden goose they have versus California by not charging tourist taxes.

 

[davidvel]

Is that what you really think ? Let me spell it out as it seems some of you don't get it. There is nothing wrong with a person with a disability having a service animal when they comply with ADA regulations. I agree that this is a normal business cost. However, there is a cost to the business when the ADA regulation is abused and this abuse is paid for by the business. It isn't a normal business cost as it is fraud.

Bill

You may want to go back and edit your comments to add "alleged" or "fake" before "service animals" in your statements where you are talking about animals that are not actual service animals. Otherwise your comments are confusing and circular.

Example:

That is absolutely false, especially when many of the service animals aren't anything more than someones untrained pets. The big difference is the training and it's easy to see the difference.
. . .

Bill

An "untrained pet" is not a "service animal" in the context of this discussion.

 

[Pompey Family]

Service animal rights do not trump other guests rights. As you know, service animal are required by the ADA to be attended at all times and leashed in public areas. Service animal rights do not trump those guests with medical conditions.

Nobody should be trumping anyone, dog or person, it's all about equality. Why should a guest with medical conditions trump me or anyone else with a service dog?

 

[noreenkate]

However, there is a cost to the business when the ADA regulation is abused and this abuse is paid for by the business. It isn't a normal business cost as it is fraud.

Thats the thing though the business needs to call out the fraudulent owners and hold them accountable for any damages…sadly they don’t. The biggest cost IMO is legitimate service dogs getting a bad rap.
It’s funny in a way- I have added & stayed at resorts that are dog friendly and have never run into a pet that was misbehaving. Yet every Marriott and Wyndham stay I always run into a dog behaving aggressively, barking and or growling.

 

[easyrider]

Nobody should be trumping anyone, dog or person, it's all about equality. Why should a guest with medical conditions trump me or anyone else with a service dog?

The court ruled in favor of people over service dogs which makes total sense to most people. A service dog is still a dog. Are you claiming that a dog has more rights than a person ?

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Thats the thing though the business needs to call out the fraudulent owners and hold them accountable for any damages…sadly they don’t. The biggest cost IMO is legitimate service dogs getting a bad rap.
It’s funny in a way- I have added & stayed at resorts that are dog friendly and have never run into a pet that was misbehaving. Yet every Marriott and Wyndham stay I always run into a dog behaving aggressively, barking and or growling.

Businesses do call out the fraud but it's always after the fact. If the registered service dog is unattended in the room and becomes disrupted the pet fee can added as the ADA requires service dogs to be attended at all times.

Bill

 

[Pompey Family]

The court ruled in favor of people over service dogs which makes total sense to most people. A service dog is still a dog. Are you claiming that a dog has more rights than a person ?

Bill

Ruled in favour over what?

I'm claiming that nobody should have more rights than someone with a service dog, why should they? That's simply discrimination. This isn't about dogs vs humans.