[2016] Account review email [Accts. suspended]

[ronparise]

I'm sure that he has no problem with the printed vip benefit that allows booking units 60 prior to check in for a discount. He as well as me have merely pointed out that canceling and rebooking isn't a benefit printed in the owner's manual. Not everything that a salesman tells you is truthful.

Similar to that is the benefit of credit pooling available to all owners.

The book says that if you know you won't be able to use all your points one year you can put those points into the pool and use them in the future. ie you can bank points or push points into the future

The way I used it is a little different. I would take future years points and use them now. Ie I would pull future points into the present

I don't think what I did was an an intended benefit

Think about it
I was able to enjoy 3 years worth of vacations before I paid my first years MF

I would look forward to some change to the pool. Perhaps requiring that the fees for future years be paid before they can go into the pool

 

[ronparise]

I'm sure that he has no problem with the printed vip benefit that allows booking units 60 days prior to check in for a discount. He as well as me have merely pointed out that canceling and rebooking isn't a benefit printed in the owner's manual. Not everything that a salesman tells you is truthful.

It's not a benefit spelled out in the book but the ability to cancel a reservation without penalty up to 15 days before check in, is a benefit

And that cancelled reservations go right back into inventory; available to us all is a feature of the reservation system

And the VIP discount for reservations made inside 60 days is a benefit spelled out in the book

It seems to me that cancel and rebook at a discount iare two separate and distinct benefits and they are both spelled out in the book

It's the unintended consequence of doing these things one right after the other that is the problem

So how to fix it? Break the reservations system so that cancelled reservations don't come back right away. I'm suggesting they go into a "holding tank" to be released back to available inventory on a random basis

 

[Roger830]

The book says that if you know you won't be able to use all your points one year you can put those points into the pool and use them in the future. ie you can bank points or push points into the future

The way I used it is a little different. I would take future years points and use them now. Ie I would pull future points into the present

I don't think what I did was an an intended benefit

Think about it
I was able to enjoy 3 years worth of vacations before I paid my first years MF

I would look forward to some change to the pool. Perhaps requiring that the fees for future years be paid before they can go into the pool

I credit pooled my unused 2017 points in June so I could book a day in NY with those and a small number of left over 2016 points. I also wondered why they let us pool 2018 points now and use them this year or next at no mf fee.

 

[BellaWyn]

Worldmark the Club, is managed by Wyndham and they have a waitlist there. So I dont think it would be too difficult to introduce in Club Wyndham. As we see in another thread they are able to keep cancelled reservations from going back into the pool of available inventory

Worldmark The Club may be Managed by Wyndham but it is still a different type of ownership, a smaller group of properties and owner base and separate inventory tracking system. It has always been a point-based system. Additionally, waitlist has always been a part of the Worldmark system.

Worldmark also does not have the same VIP discounts in their system so there is a lot less cancellation happening, if only because of the significant difference in the volume of transactions. Being both a Worldmark and a Wyndham owner Ron you know that navigating the two data bases are not exactly the same.

Waitlist used to be an option back in the Fairfield days. They took it away and have never brought it back for what I am sure is a plethora of complexities it would invite. But even if they do bring it back...... Those heavily invested in getting to the top of the lists will PUT EFFORT into getting there. The average Wyndham owner just wants to log on, find a vacation and move on. It will be the same small handful of invested owners that will be on those lists regularly. Waitlist still doesn't solve it for the masses and will only become a minor inconvenience for owners and point managers that are using the system on a continuum.

 

[BellaWyn]

So how to fix it? Break the reservations system so that cancelled reservations don't come back right away. I'm suggesting they go into a "holding tank" to be released back to available inventory on a random basis

How does this actually "fix" the cancel / rebook process? Even "random" release back into the system, if an automated process, has to have a pattern. You think that those heavily invested won't eventually figure that out or, at the very least, still won't eventually work to the advantage of those that are in the system from open to close daily? If bots actually exist then it wouldn't slow that process down either?

The masses, again, would not be represented in this kind of fix.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

November 6 - this thread - passes 70,000 views

70307 views -Sunday Nov. 6 2016 - 8 pm eastern time

74 Days since bobdaz started this TUG thread

856 - posts


WOW

.

 

[wjappraise]

70307 views -Sunday Nov. 6 2016 - 8 pm eastern time

74 Days since bobdaz started this TUG thread

856 - posts


WOW

.

Amazing. My account has been suspended in whole or in part for 20% of the year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ronparise]

How does this actually "fix" the cancel / rebook process? Even "random" release back into the system, if an automated process, has to have a pattern. You think that those heavily invested won't eventually figure that out or, at the very least, still won't eventually work to the advantage of those that are in the system from open to close daily? If bots actually exist then it wouldn't slow that process down either?

The masses, again, would not be represented in this kind of fix.

Ok you don't like a waitlist. Do it this way. Change the cancellation policy to match the discount policy.

Cancelations inside 15 days lose your points
Cancellations 15 to 60 days lose half the points
Cancellations up to 60 days out get all your points back

Or allow the discount only for points that are actually VIP qualified

im sure you are right there will be certain determined folks that will figure out a way to make the system work for them

 

[BellaWyn]

Ok you don't like a waitlist. Do it this way. Change the cancellation policy to match the discount policy.

Cancelations inside 15 days lose your points <-- already in place
Cancellations 15 to 60 days lose half the points <-- this effects more than just VIP, effects all ownerships
Cancellations up to 60 days out get all your points back <-- ditto #2 above

Or allow the discount only for points that are actually VIP qualified <-- would not slow down mega-renters or point managers who already currently use VIP qualified points and would further be muddied when pooled points come into play.

im sure you are right there will be certain determined folks that will figure out a way to make the system work for them

Do not dislike waitlist. For the size of the ownership base and volume of properties (aka shear number of annual transactions and management of the inventories) wait list would be tough to manage and overall would still not even the playing field for the masses (is this the motivation WYN is going after?).

To be clear, not advocating for one method over another. Merely pointing out that all of the suggested "solutions" don't actually even out the playing field for the masses. And most, at some point, would backfire and work to the advantage of the small handful of users WYN supposedly intends to try to slow down. Not to mention really piss off a lot of long time owners that would have to re-learn a system that already has a fairly hefty learning curve.

WYN is having a really difficult time accurately tracking owner points AND inventories in the current system. Introduce massive rule changes in a system where accounting for the point usage is already a problem only invites more problems.

 

[ronparise]

Do not dislike waitlist. For the size of the ownership base and volume of properties (aka shear number of annual transactions and management of the inventories) wait list would be tough to manage and overall would still not even the playing field for the masses (is this the motivation WYN is going after?).

To be clear, not advocating for one method over another. Merely pointing out that all of the suggested "solutions" don't actually even out the playing field for the masses. And most, at some point, would backfire and work to the advantage of the small handful of users WYN supposedly intends to try to slow down. Not to mention really piss off a lot of long time owners that would have to re-learn a system that already has a fairly hefty learning curve.

WYN is having a really difficult time accurately tracking owner points AND inventories in the current system. Introduce massive rule changes in a system where accounting for the point usage is already a problem only invites more problems.

Please understand I'm not suggesting that my ideas will work or even that they should be tried. I'm not even suggesting that cancel and rebook is a problem. All I'm saying is that Wyndham is going to do something to try to end the practice of cancel and rebook

Of course any changes will effect all owners. That's the price co skier and all the others that want this thing changed to squeeze the profits out of large scale commercial renting, including Wyndham executives, will have to accept

The operative word in the cancel and rebook strategy is "AND"
Cancellations are and will be allowed.

And

Booking reservations for a discount will still be allowed

The question for the folks inside Wyndham that will be working on this is "how do we get the "and" out of the equation.


We have been through this before. When guest fees were introduced it effected all owners When the 10 nightly limit was introduced it didn't stop the points managers. It doesn't matter Wyndham is going to keep trying to control the mega renters. Some of the things they do will not work and everything they do will have un intended consequences.

Speaking only for myself: I anticipate that something will happen in the next few years regarding cancel and rebook that will impact my rental business. So I'm proactively making changes in what I do to to insure my survival no matter what that something might be. Others can ignore my rants and do what they want

Expect the best but plan for the worst

 

[paxsarah]

Even "random" release back into the system, if an automated process, has to have a pattern.

Does it? I don't think it does. I don't think it would be too difficult (I mean, this is Wyndham IT we're talking about, but let's suspend our disbelief for a second) to develop an algorithm in which a cancelled reservation is released back into inventory at some randomly generated time during operating hours in the next five days, say. Even if someone knows that the reservation will reappear sometime in the next five days (the "pattern"), there are 80+ continuous hours that the person would have to monitor to catch it.

Unless we're talking bots, which we have on this forum before, and I'm not sure if we've decided they're definitely not a thing. But outside of bots, that seems like it would be a pretty difficult process to game manually.

 

[wjappraise]

Does it? I don't think it does. I don't think it would be too difficult (I mean, this is Wyndham IT we're talking about, but let's suspend our disbelief for a second) to develop an algorithm in which a cancelled reservation is released back into inventory at some randomly generated time during operating hours in the next five days, say. Even if someone knows that the reservation will reappear sometime in the next five days (the "pattern"), there are 80+ continuous hours that the person would have to monitor to catch it.

Unless we're talking bots, which we have on this forum before, and I'm not sure if we've decided they're definitely not a thing. But outside of bots, that seems like it would be a pretty difficult process to game manually.

Good point, however, I do not believe Wyndham IT has sufficient acumen to handle the task. This morning, my point status showing points available for each of my staggered use year amounts, has not been updated since Saturday. As most will note, the status does not update on Sunday, but it does update every day other than Sunday. And it will typically show the updated balances as early as 5:00 or 6:00am. But not today, it still shows what I had as of Saturday morning. This despite the fact I cancelled numerous reservations and made others. The available points when I attempt to book another is accurate, but not the "points status" balance accounting.

Just another example of the ineptitude that exists in this particular Silo of Wyndham. And it is likely one that impacts the rest of the owners today.

 

[raygo123]

Good point, however, I do not believe Wyndham IT has sufficient acumen to handle the task. This morning, my point status showing points available for each of my staggered use year amounts, has not been updated since Saturday. As most will note, the status does not update on Sunday, but it does update every day other than Sunday. And it will typically show the updated balances as early as 5:00 or 6:00am. But not today, it still shows what I had as of Saturday morning. This despite the fact I cancelled numerous reservations and made others. The available points when I attempt to book another is accurate, but not the "points status" balance accounting.

Just another example of the ineptitude that exists in this particular Silo of Wyndham. And it is likely one that impacts the rest of the owners today.

It depends on how Wyndham corporate allocates resources. If it is done by corporate as a whole, there are much more resources available for the task than if the timeshare division has to fend for themselves

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[am1]

Returning cancelled reservations up to 5 days later puts a lag time in anyone being able to rebook those units. Maybe within 24 hrs of cancellation.

The problem Wyndham has and has always seem to have is whoever is making these decisions really has no idea what is going on. What they come up with may sound good around the boardroom but in practice does not work.

Not that I am lobbying for a job but everyone has a price.

 

[wjappraise]

It depends on how Wyndham corporate allocates resources. If it is done by corporate as a whole, there are much more resources available for the task than if the timeshare division has to fend for themselves

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Well stated. It is hard to believe that a Fortune 500 company has fallen into such a state of confusion simply due to its IT department ineptitude. From my perspective, it appears that Wyndham has focused on limiting larger owners (mega renters) to the point where they have designed a patchwork program that is full of glitches. It almost seems that they should scrap the program and build from the ground up. And stop outsmarting themselves.

 

[am1]

Well stated. It is hard to believe that a Fortune 500 company has fallen into such a state of confusion simply due to its IT department ineptitude. From my perspective, it appears that Wyndham has focused on limiting larger owners (mega renters) to the point where they have designed a patchwork program that is full of glitches. It almost seems that they should scrap the program and build from the ground up. And stop outsmarting themselves.

Is it the IT departments fault or the people higher up who deny there are even problems.

Remember all the times the website would not work in the evenings and we could not cancel reservations. (I still have screen shots and video of it). The next mornings I would have to call in and speak with owner care who would contact the IT department and according to the IT department there were no outages, because if there were it would be generated in their report. The problem was that what the IT department results showed was taken as the truth and not further investigated.

Some times points were restored but I have lost millions of points because of people in owner care to actually care. Their solution was to cancel reservations earlier in the day instead of accepting there was an issue.

 

[ace2000]

Of course any changes will effect all owners. That's the price co skier and all the others that want this thing changed to squeeze the profits out of large scale commercial renting, including Wyndham executives, will have to accept

I'm not sure I understand how curtailing "cancel and rebook" would affect all owners? Are there other changes you see coming in regards to this?

I have not read all the posts on this thread, just curious why some keep saying this.

 

[SueDonJ]

... Of course any changes will effect all owners. That's the price co skier and all the others that want this thing changed to squeeze the profits out of large scale commercial renting, including Wyndham executives, will have to accept ...

Are you saying that you expect Wyndham will have to curtail their rental activity if they implement changes that would curtail it for owners? And if so, are you sure that they and you would be subject to the same rules? In Marriott's docs and others, developers/managers are given express rights to rental activity that is separate and distinct from the owners' rental rights. In other words, unless your docs state that they and you must operate under the same t&c's, I wouldn't expect that they'll have to perform according to whatever restrictions they place on owners (if they place any.)

 

[BellaWyn]

Unless we're talking bots, which we have on this forum before, and I'm not sure if we've decided they're definitely not a thing. But outside of bots, that seems like it would be a pretty difficult process to game manually.

Let's pretend bots don't exist but point managers / mega-renters still do. If your entire business model depended on staff monitoring the system from open to close to capture reservations as they come available, that's not "gaming" the system. That's part of doing business for the point manager. Delaying canceled reservations, regardless of the reason or who canceled, will still eventually work to the advantage of those invested owners

Ron, agree that changes are coming. And it's going to be a lot about how they deal with the "AND" part of the equation. Sadly it seems the approach is somewhat back-asswards. You would think they would first focus on getting the system to do the accounting accurately before focusing on a smaller population of owners that drive "fresh meat" into their sales dens.

Regardless of what the changes are, rest assured it WILL have some impact on ALL owners. We are seeing that now with inventory problems, accounting problems, credit pooling issues and understaffed OC / VC's. Those are not unique to a VIP owners.

 

[wjappraise]

Are you saying that you expect Wyndham will have to curtail their rental activity if they implement changes that would curtail it for owners? And if so, are you sure that they and you would be subject to the same rules? In Marriott's docs and others, developers/managers are given express rights to rental activity that is separate and distinct from the owners' rental rights. In other words, unless your docs state that they and you must operate under the same t&c's, I wouldn't expect that they'll have to perform according to whatever restrictions they place on owners (if they place any.)

Part of Wyndham's supply line for Extra Holidays is us, the owners. We can make a reservation (even with a canceled and rebooked unit) and turn it over to Extra Holidays for them to market and keep a very large commission percentage if/when the sell the reservation. This is useful for Wyndham to generate income, bring in potential "new meat" buyers, and for sales people to use as a reason to "buy more points," so you can rent the units out via EH. In my estimation, Wyndham is the biggest mega-renter out there.

 

[BellaWyn]

Are you saying that you expect Wyndham will have to curtail their rental activity if they implement changes that would curtail it for owners? )

Not what Ron is saying.

He's saying that changes that are now being motivated by the effort to squeeze out the large commercial renters will eventually have an impact on all the owners and WYN executives with have to get their head around what that impact would looks like. In short, "CoSkier, careful what you ask for."

At least, that's my translation of Ron's statement. No one is blind to the fact that WYN operates under a different set of rules related to their own commercial renting activity.

 

[ronparise]

I'm not sure I understand how curtailing "cancel and rebook" would affect all owners? Are there other changes you see coming in regards to this?

I have not read all the posts on this thread, just curious why some keep saying this.

The only constant is change. So yes I expect other changes. I just don't know what they are

If they take action to end cancel and rebooking it will affect all owners that cancel and rebook. And that includes folks that are not renters or mega renters. There are a lot of folks that bought for their own use that cancel and rebook to get more vacations for their families not to profit

 

[buckor]

The only constant is change. So yes I expect other changes. I just don't know what they are

If they take action to end cancel and rebooking it will affect all owners that cancel and rebook. And that includes folks that are not renters or mega renters. There are a lot of folks that bought for their own use that cancel and rebook to get more vacations for their families not to profit

This is true!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk

 

[bizaro86]

Renters of cancel and rebooked rooms at low prices are probably not good prospects for the sales table. If a prospect says, well I'm paying 700 per week for my 4 bedroom presidential unit right now, how likely is that person to buy retail points. I would suggest renters of high priced ARP reservations are much more likely to buy.

 

[paxsarah]

Let's pretend bots don't exist but point managers / mega-renters still do. If your entire business model depended on staff monitoring the system from open to close to capture reservations as they come available, that's not "gaming" the system. That's part of doing business for the point manager. Delaying canceled reservations, regardless of the reason or who canceled, will still eventually work to the advantage of those invested owners

I hadn't considered the possibility of points managers/mega-renters having staff monitoring the system from 7am to 11:45pm waiting for the cancellations to come back, but in that case, you're absolutely right. I also didn't realize that was a thing. I wonder what the success rate of catching one's own reservation would be if the return to inventory was delayed by even up to 24 hours, though.