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[ 2012 ] Fairmont / Sunchaser / Northwynd official thread with lawsuit info!

LilMaggie

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I own Nothing!
Google, Resorts west management group offshore. Then Google Collin Knight,
So Mr. Knight is a "gun for hire"? All this research is making me feel more ill by the minute. They majorly ripped off the Fairmont Rancho Banderas folks in Mexico as well.
 

MgolferL

newbie
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Jan 5, 2018
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Resorts Owned
Fairmont Sunchaser Palm Springs Marriott
I asked about paying and the accumulating interest as well easily 2 possibly 3 times in the past directly to MG and i do have his replies to not pay. Im not a lawyer i relied on his advice in this mess. If it was more appropriate to advise payment we would have. And i dont consider this an excellent deal when there was no neutral mediator or arbitrator present basically we've been thrown under the bus. And lastly theres no way in hell NM has been put out by this much money id like to see the financial statements to show this. Without all these weeks in use theyve saved a ton of money from it. So really its mostly punitive.

That is why it is necessary to file a complaint with the Law Society of BC and AB. His replies to "do not pay" are important as they cost us money...along with showing his lack of understanding of the complexities with cases like this. As mentioned before, perhaps we can go after his insurance company to reimburse us what his ignorance cost us.
 

MgolferL

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Fairmont Sunchaser Palm Springs Marriott
Why would any of us want to stay? They can charge whatever exit fee and maintenance fee that they want. Basically court sanctioned. We are just an open wallet to this company. I LOVED that valley but now I drive farther and vacation in the okanagan. If time is limited it is a very quick flight to Kelowna. If I do go to the valley I take all of my groceries and adult drinks. There are so many beautiful places around us I refuse to give that valley much of my time or money. I'd like to be able to stop going to BC over this but I realize I can't so I just go further or to Fernie. Same distance different MLA. The only thing anyone understands is $. Don't give them yours.

Does anyone really believe they are working to make the resort better? Or just put more $ in their pockets? I predict they will go bankrupt or sell the resort soon. They do not want to run a resort. They only want the $ from a group that has lots of members and don't have an effective way to communicate with each other.That's why they never set up an HOA, they would have had to answer to someone.

If you absolutely have to go use any other timeshare to trade in to Fairmont with. I'm sure it won't be a hard trade and you have a much better chance of dealing with an ethical company. Or better yet use an airbnb. Anything that protects your assets from this group. I really, really, really need to believe in karma. How anyone can associate with this group without feeling utter repulsion is beyond me. How do they hold their heads up in public? I've always said I would love my children no matter what they do but if they became people who would ruin thousands of people just because they can I likely would rarely communicate with them. Anyone can make a mistake but no one should enjoy feeding off of the weak. I will be the better person I will pay them what the courts say I owe and then I will never communicate with them again.

The ONLY reason to stay is to make changes from the inside...however that doesn't look like it will be possible at this point...

In terms of "how do they hold their heads up in public?"...evil is alive and thriving in many places...one could argue NM offices for example...
 
Joined
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Northwynd/Northmont/Sunchaser
I thought HOA stood for home owner’s association . We certainly had nothing resembling that at Sunchaser.
 

GypsyOne

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I need someone to clarify the default clause 13 in my lease that states "In the event that default in payment in not remedied within 16 months from the date of such default, then the Lessee shall be deemed to have offered to sell the Lessee's leasehold interest to the Lessor for an amount equal to fifty percent of one fortieth of the purchase price..." It goes on to say how much the Lessor would owe the Lessee if they sold it within a year of taking it back. How do we get NM to take back our leases, as I am offering mine back to them? I have been in default now for almost five years, thanks to the advice of one who shall go unnamed. My lease also specifically sets out a late charge of 2% per month of the amount past due. So 24%. That may not seem like much difference from 26.8%, however that is not a rate I ever agreed to pay.

This is how I would interpret Clause 13, and I will explain by use of an example:

Let's say you bought a two bedroom, one week timeshare in year 2000 for $16,000 on a 40-year Lease agreement. One year is then deemed to have cost 1/40 x $16,000 = $400.

Then let's say you default in year 2013, which means you have used 13 years and there are 27 years remaining, valued at 27 x $400 = $10,800.

According to Clause 13 you have deemed to have offered to sell your leasehold interest to the Lessor for 50% of value of remaining time or 50% of $10,800 = $5,400.(The percent varies for different time periods) In other words, you give the timeshare back and they reimburse you $5,400, which is half the value of remaining time. Seems like a reasonable deal for both sides.

But they have latched onto the part that says, "If the Lessor accepts the deemed offer.....etc." In other words, they are saying they can choose to pay you for a fractional value of remaining timeshare or they can choose not to pay you..its up to them to decide..., and the Courts have sided with them.

In my opinion, this is an obvious miss-representation of the Clause, and a serious breach of the Lease agreement for these reasons:
1. Why is there a lengthy formula for remedy of default in the lease if the formula was not intended to be used? And why instead can they arbitrarily make up their own formula for default, which is not in the Lease, and to which we have not agreed? If nothing else, that is a deceptive lease-writing practice and should be illegal.
2. They have taken the position that the meaning of "If the Lessor accepts the deemed offer...." is that they can choose not to pay you if they so decide. But that's not what the Clause says. It says that if they accept the deemed offer to take back the timeshare as remedy for default, then they have to pay you a fractional value of remaining timeshare, less "all monies then owing under the Lease to the Lessor." Simply put, if they decide to take back the timeshare, they owe you money.

This is one more point that our defense team seems to have given little attention, but one that seems perfectly clear and a serious breach of our contracts.

It almost seems Northmont's legal dream team have convinced an easily convinced, if not complicit, court system that the timeshare owners will pay for re-construction of a faulty product that we bought in good faith would meet normal construction standards, and our leases are meaningless. This is a Third-World court decision and we need someone in authority with the will to do something about it.
 

truthr

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This is how I would interpret Clause 13, and I will explain by use of an example:

Let's say you bought a two bedroom, one week timeshare in year 2000 for $16,000 on a 40-year Lease agreement. One year is then deemed to have cost 1/40 x $16,000 = $400.

Then let's say you default in year 2013, which means you have used 13 years and there are 27 years remaining, valued at 27 x $400 = $10,800.

According to Clause 13 you have deemed to have offered to sell your leasehold interest to the Lessor for 50% of value of remaining time or 50% of $10,800 = $5,400.(The percent varies for different time periods) In other words, you give the timeshare back and they reimburse you $5,400, which is half the value of remaining time. Seems like a reasonable deal for both sides.

But they have latched onto the part that says, "If the Lessor accepts the deemed offer.....etc." In other words, they are saying they can choose to pay you for a fractional value of remaining timeshare or they can choose not to pay you..its up to them to decide..., and the Courts have sided with them.

In my opinion, this is an obvious miss-representation of the Clause, and a serious breach of the Lease agreement for these reasons:
1. Why is there a lengthy formula for remedy of default in the lease if the formula was not intended to be used? And why instead can they arbitrarily make up their own formula for default, which is not in the Lease, and to which we have not agreed? If nothing else, that is a deceptive lease-writing practice and should be illegal.
2. They have taken the position that the meaning of "If the Lessor accepts the deemed offer...." is that they can choose not to pay you if they so decide. But that's not what the Clause says. It says that if they accept the deemed offer to take back the timeshare as remedy for default, then they have to pay you a fractional value of remaining timeshare, less "all monies then owing under the Lease to the Lessor." Simply put, if they decide to take back the timeshare, they owe you money.

This is one more point that our defense team seems to have given little attention, but one that seems perfectly clear and a serious breach of our contracts.

It almost seems Northmont's legal dream team have convinced an easily convinced, if not complicit, court system that the timeshare owners will pay for re-construction of a faulty product that we bought in good faith would meet normal construction standards, and our leases are meaningless. This is a Third-World court decision and we need someone in authority with the will to do something about it.
Great points that I pondered and mentioned to our lawyer many times over the years.
Another is that they want to re-align and take buildings out to sell but rather than offer to buy us out they not only want us to give it up, they want us to pay for it and silence us in the process.
 

LilMaggie

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This is how I would interpret Clause 13, and I will explain by use of an example:

Let's say you bought a two bedroom, one week timeshare in year 2000 for $16,000 on a 40-year Lease agreement. One year is then deemed to have cost 1/40 x $16,000 = $400.

Then let's say you default in year 2013, which means you have used 13 years and there are 27 years remaining, valued at 27 x $400 = $10,800.

According to Clause 13 you have deemed to have offered to sell your leasehold interest to the Lessor for 50% of value of remaining time or 50% of $10,800 = $5,400.(The percent varies for different time periods) In other words, you give the timeshare back and they reimburse you $5,400, which is half the value of remaining time. Seems like a reasonable deal for both sides.

But they have latched onto the part that says, "If the Lessor accepts the deemed offer.....etc." In other words, they are saying they can choose to pay you for a fractional value of remaining timeshare or they can choose not to pay you..its up to them to decide..., and the Courts have sided with them.

In my opinion, this is an obvious miss-representation of the Clause, and a serious breach of the Lease agreement for these reasons:
1. Why is there a lengthy formula for remedy of default in the lease if the formula was not intended to be used? And why instead can they arbitrarily make up their own formula for default, which is not in the Lease, and to which we have not agreed? If nothing else, that is a deceptive lease-writing practice and should be illegal.
2. They have taken the position that the meaning of "If the Lessor accepts the deemed offer...." is that they can choose not to pay you if they so decide. But that's not what the Clause says. It says that if they accept the deemed offer to take back the timeshare as remedy for default, then they have to pay you a fractional value of remaining timeshare, less "all monies then owing under the Lease to the Lessor." Simply put, if they decide to take back the timeshare, they owe you money.

This is one more point that our defense team seems to have given little attention, but one that seems perfectly clear and a serious breach of our contracts.

It almost seems Northmont's legal dream team have convinced an easily convinced, if not complicit, court system that the timeshare owners will pay for re-construction of a faulty product that we bought in good faith would meet normal construction standards, and our leases are meaningless. This is a Third-World court decision and we need someone in authority with the will to do something about it.
Thank you for that excellent explanation.
 

torqued

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Jan 1, 2018
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Virginia
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Sunchaser
Great points that I pondered and mentioned to our lawyer many times over the years.
Another is that they want to re-align and take buildings out to sell but rather than offer to buy us out they not only want us to give it up, they want us to pay for it and silence us in the process.
I had similar wording in a partnership which stated we have the right but are not obligated to buy your share of the partnership out. Another way to legally screw the little guy!!
 

MarcieL

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Why would any of us want to stay? They can charge whatever exit fee and maintenance fee that they want. Basically court sanctioned. We are just an open wallet to this company. I LOVED that valley but now I drive farther and vacation in the okanagan. If time is limited it is a very quick flight to Kelowna. If I do go to the valley I take all of my groceries and adult drinks. There are so many beautiful places around us I refuse to give that valley much of my time or money. I'd like to be able to stop going to BC over this but I realize I can't so I just go further or to Fernie. Same distance different MLA. The only thing anyone understands is $. Don't give them yours.

Does anyone really believe they are working to make the resort better? Or just put more $ in their pockets? I predict they will go bankrupt or sell the resort soon. They do not want to run a resort. They only want the $ from a group that has lots of members and don't have an effective way to communicate with each other.That's why they never set up an HOA, they would have had to answer to someone.

If you absolutely have to go use any other timeshare to trade in to Fairmont with. I'm sure it won't be a hard trade and you have a much better chance of dealing with an ethical company. Or better yet use an airbnb. Anything that protects your assets from this group. I really, really, really need to believe in karma. How anyone can associate with this group without feeling utter repulsion is beyond me. How do they hold their heads up in public? I've always said I would love my children no matter what they do but if they became people who would ruin thousands of people just because they can I likely would rarely communicate with them. Anyone can make a mistake but no one should enjoy feeding off of the weak. I will be the better person I will pay them what the courts say I owe and then I will never communicate with them again.


I totally agree Tacoma, well said.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2018
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Sunchaser, Sheraton Desert Oasis
I do understand that Geldert's litigation strategy was nonexistent. I don't understand how no one, not Geldert, not King, not Alexander, not Loo, not Fitzpatrick and not Young ever took into consideration the $100+ millions that were used to purchase the vacation leases? How does the very existence of that money not being credited against the operation of the property (I get it, #NAFR), not appearing in the Annual Operating Statement, not define Capital Costs? It is logical that capital costs are not mentioned, not defined and not included in the Lease Agreements. They weren't part of the Lease Agreements. That is a very large part of the consideration the Lessor provided. The Lessor, separate from any contribution of the Lessees, had to have the capacity to initially provide the property and the time intervals being leased. The Lessees offset Annual Operating Costs through the Maintenance Fees.

What am I missing? I witnessed it and still don't believe we are where we are.

As alluded to in a previous post every one of us, somewhere between 12,000 and 18,000 leases (x2, most were purchased by a couple) or at least 24,000-consumers, knew this when they signed.
 

CleoB

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I had similar wording in a partnership which stated we have the right but are not obligated to buy your share of the partnership out. Another way to legally screw the little guy!!
Hmmm, does that mean we can pool all this money and buy NM out?
 

ecwinch

TUG Member
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San Antonio
Resorts Owned
Marriott Harbour Point (HP), Kauai Beach Villas, Riverside Suites, WorldMark Pts (WM), Wyndham Pts
This is one more point that our defense team seems to have given little attention, but one that seems perfectly clear and a serious breach of our contracts.

It almost seems Northmont's legal dream team have convinced an easily convinced, if not complicit, court system that the timeshare owners will pay for re-construction of a faulty product that we bought in good faith would meet normal construction standards, and our leases are meaningless. This is a Third-World court decision and we need someone in authority with the will to do something about it.

The reason the argument got little attention is - in terms of contract law - the meaning of certain terms is well settled. IF, MAY, SHALL, WILL are some of those words.

So while I believe you had horrendous legal representation - so bad that a law school should do a case study on it - this is not an argument that even Perry Mason could win.
 
Joined
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Sunchaser, Sheraton Desert Oasis
So while I believe you had horrendous legal representation - so bad that a law school should do a case study on it - this is not an argument that even Perry Mason could win.

I accept that the Lessor does not have to accept the Lease 'offered for purchase' in Clause 13. I do not accept that there exists within the contract any mechanism by which the Lessor can charge the Lessee for anything other than Maintenance Fees and a Special Assessment. This Special Assessment is strictly limited to damages resulting from a tenant's occupancy.

If Northmont had of started renovating and included the extra costs in the Annual Maintenance Fees, I would have thought they'd have had a better argument for the work being within the scope of and contemplated by the terms of the contract.

I know how the courts saw it. I just don't believe it.
 

LilMaggie

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I own Nothing!
I am new to this group - but not to this MESS! I, too am wondering 'what did we miss'? How can this happen? Am wondering how many might be considering NOT paying by Feb. 15? We owe $45,000 plus - very difficult to come up with that money in 1 month!
Welcome. The more brains we have working on this, the better.
 

Stung

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Jan 21, 2018
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Alberta
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Fairmont / Northwynd
I too am new to this site and am one of the unlucky pawns in this fiasco. Unbelievable that Both the BC and Alberta courts have ruled with this outcome. NO justice has been served here for if it had there would not be 1200+ bewildered and angry timeshare users (Not Owners!). Lawyers will get paid regardless of the outcome but in the end it will be us that are left with the sour taste. KW, what goes around, comes around...
 

aden2

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"JUDGMENT INTEREST REGULATION" for Alberta should be visited. It is under 5% that can be charged, so where is NM now?
 

LilMaggie

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"JUDGMENT INTEREST REGULATION" for Alberta should be visited. It is under 5% that can be charged, so where is NM now?
There are prejudgment and post judgement interest rates and I am not sure which would apply. Either way, it is not compounded and it isn't more than 5% annually. MG obviously agreed to the 27% interest rates :wall:
 

torqued

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Virginia
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Sunchaser
So are we basically waiting around for the Reid appeal and judge Young’s view on interest? So if by some sort of Devine intervention the appeal is favorable what then? Is MG only working for those who settled at this point (my answer to that question is yes). Is there a time frame an attorney has to send out withdrawal of service papers to their clients?? He’ll be coming up on 30 days here real soon.
 

Tanny13

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FAIRMONT, Marriott
The reason the argument got little attention is - in terms of contract law - the meaning of certain terms is well settled. IF, MAY, SHALL, WILL are some of those words.

So while I believe you had horrendous legal representation - so bad that a law school should do a case study on it - this is not an argument that even Perry Mason could win.

So NM had the option to NOT pay us for the remaining time in our lease. If they did not accept it, why can’t it be interpreted that we could then just walk. That clause gives the impression that there is some value left in our lease, so is it not a fair conclusion to assume that if NM didn’t pay, you could then choose to walk and forfeit the residual value?
 

Appauled

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Lets keep hammering out there for some exposure to the public and help from the media, etc.!!!!!
As per the advise of others on this forum, I fired off an email briefly explaining our situation to:

marketplace@cbc.ca
Calgarynews@bellmedia.ca
mclaughlinonyourside@ctv.ca
fifthtips@cbc.ca
gopublic@cbc.ca

Lets keep emailing, calling and reaching out to whom ever may be able to hear our horror story and help!!!
If there is anything else anyone can suggest we all do please post or re-post your suggestions!
 

truthr

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So NM had the option to NOT pay us for the remaining time in our lease. If they did not accept it, why can’t it be interpreted that we could then just walk. That clause gives the impression that there is some value left in our lease, so is it not a fair conclusion to assume that if NM didn’t pay, you could then choose to walk and forfeit the residual value?
Let us also consider the fact that they needed so many to cancel so they could realign the resort and sell it off. So would those be their units in those buildings? Meaning they don't have to share any of the profits (cancellation fees and sale of Hillside) with the rest of the resort? Yet we can't sell our timeshare unit without their permission? This is more and more one sided as we peel the layers.
 
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Late2Game

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Lets keep hammering out there for some exposure to the public and help from the media, etc.!!!!!
As per the advise of others on this forum, I fired off an email briefly explaining our situation to:

marketplace@cbc.ca
Calgarynews@bellmedia.ca
mclaughlinonyourside@ctv.ca
fifthtips@cbc.ca
gopublic@cbc.ca

Lets keep emailing, calling and reaching out to whom ever may be able to hear our horror story and help!!!
If there is anything else anyone can suggest we all do please post or re-post your suggestions!


Appauled, that's a great list, but perhaps we should also include some AMERICAN media channels here too, perhaps "60 Minutes", for example.

We have plenty of American friends that have been screwed over like everyone else. They face challenges in dealing with the official courts of justice here in Canada, so perhaps an alternate approach would be to go through the "court of public opinion".

Who knows, maybe our judicial and political system just might wake up to a public shaming from south of the 49th!

.
 
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