2010 Maintenance Fee Thread

[nodge]

Nodge, where did you find this AMEX rate? Does the rate code work for other locations (e.g. WKORV)?

It appears to have been a targeted email promotion. (I fished it out of my spam filter, and is limited to WKV. I bet SPG would give this rate to anyone who calls with the above-noted rate code (WRLR01).

-nodge

 

[Ken555]

SVR Falls 2010 MFs

2010 Operating Assessment: $580.11
2010 Replacement Reserve: $81.55
2010 Estimated Real Estate Taxes: $54.82
2010 ARDA: $5

= $721.48

Letter states this is a 3.1% ($20.16) increase vs 2009 MFs. This includes the following reductions per average ownership week:

- $26.88 by reducing housekeeping
- $9.75 in utility savings via reduced consumption and "Go Green" savings
- $4.78 by paying minimum wage to front desk staff (err...)
- $3.38 with less credit card fees (as compared to 2009, which was higher due to a refurbishment cost)
- $2.43 by cutting activities and associated staff expenses
- $1.24 by using 10-year old linens for another year
- $1.10 by hiring the low-bidder for security (lock your doors, people!)

And, the MFs are increasing for:

- $4.20 for legal (/sigh)
- $7.25 to pay 2009 deficit, primarily resulting from unpaid MFs
- $65.63 to pay ANTICIPATED 2010 uncollectible MFs

 

[jerseygirl]

SVR Falls 2010 MFs

2010 Operating Assessment: $580.11
2010 Replacement Reserve: $81.55
2010 Estimated Real Estate Taxes: $54.82
2010 ARDA: $5

= $721.48

Letter states this is a 3.1% ($20.16) increase vs 2009 MFs. This includes the following reductions per average ownership week:

- $26.88 by reducing housekeeping
- $9.75 in utility savings via reduced consumption and "Go Green" savings
- $4.78 by paying minimum wage to front desk staff (err...)
- $3.38 with less credit card fees (as compared to 2009, which was higher due to a refurbishment cost)
- $2.43 by cutting activities and associated staff expenses
- $1.24 by using 10-year old linens for another year
- $1.10 by hiring the low-bidder for security (lock your doors, people!)

And, the MFs are increasing for:

- $4.20 for legal (/sigh)
- $7.25 to pay 2009 deficit, primarily resulting from unpaid MFs
- $65.63 to pay ANTICIPATED 2010 uncollectible MFs

Ah ... they might want to increase that legal reserve!

And, I say that as an owner. I'd rather pay more legal fees now ... and gain control back of OUR resort.

 

[YYJMSP]

WKORV fees posted on MSC

2BR LO unit at WKORV:

Current Year Charges
Maintenance Fee(s) $ 3,076.69
Tax - If Applicable $ 0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable $ 113.53
Other* $ 0.00
Interest $ 0.00
Late Fees $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** $ 0.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges $ 3,190.22
Less Payments*** $ 0.00

Total Due $ 3,190.22


In comparison, 2009 base MF is showing as $2,459.73 -- so an increase of 25%

 

[DeniseM]

2BR LO unit at WKORV:

Current Year Charges
Maintenance Fee(s) $ 3,076.69
Tax - If Applicable $ 0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable $ 113.53
Other* $ 0.00
Interest $ 0.00
Late Fees $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** $ 0.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges $ 3,190.22
Less Payments*** $ 0.00

Total Due $ 3,190.22


In comparison, 2009 base MF is showing as $2,459.73 -- so an increase of 25%

This is just the estimate - In the past the estimates have been unreliable.

 

[YYJMSP]

Estimate?

I don't think it's an estimate any more.

Our WKORV is now showing a Total Due of $3190.22, where it was showing $0 yesterday and a projected MF value the same as the previous year.

Our WKORVN is still showing Total Due of $0 and a projected MF same as last year's amount.

 

[DeniseM]

I just looked, and it's the same figures that have been there for awhile, and there is no "due date." Once there is a due date, then it's the real deal. Maybe they just updated your Acct., because I have seen the same figures for a month or more.

 

[DeniseM]

Hmmm...weird....I went back and checked again and now I'm showing something else. Maybe they are updating it right now?


Maintenance Fee Details

Due Date N/A

Prior Balance Due
View Prior Year Balance Detail $ 0.00

Current Year Charges

Maintenance Fee(s) $ 2,232.83

Tax - If Applicable $ 0.00

Membership Fee - If Applicable $ 113.53

Other* $ 0.00

Interest $ 0.00

Late Fees $ 0.00

ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** $ 0.00

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges $ 2,346.36
Less Payments*** $ 0.00

Total Due $ 2,346.36

Projected Fees for Next Year $ 2,346.36

 

[LisaRex]

I just don't know how they're going to keep the place up with only $10,000 a month per apartment to work with.

 

[DavidnRobin]

MSC is showing the MFs for the 2Bd LO Dlx as $3,076.69 this is an increase of 25.1% from the 2009 MF of $2,459.73.

Since 2005 - a 90% increase:
2005 $1,623.77
2006 $1,813.16 (11.7%)
2007 $1,954.27 (7.8%)
2008 $2,203.79 (12.8%)
2009 $2,459.73 (11.6%)
2010 $3,076.69 (25.1%)

anyone ready to start the battle yet?

 

[LisaRex]

anyone ready to start the battle yet?

Count me in.

 

[DeniseM]

Definitely - I asked the HOA to send me a list of the BOD's, Bio's, and contact info. They said I would have it in 7-10 days - it's been 16 days, so I hope to get it soon!

 

[DavidnRobin]

2 main issues... {and this deserved it's own thread for all SVO Resorts suffering from escalating MFs}

1) The diversion of MF funds for deliquent/default Owners: As discussed previously - once deliquent MFs are paid back - this goes back to the HOA (per CCRs - fine). At question is the payback of MFs for the deliquent VOIs that are used by SVO/WKORV via SVN exchange, II exchange, usage by StarPoints/SPG, and those rented by SVO/WKORV. I have not been able to find any source that discusses how the value attained by SVO/WKORV is paid back to the HOA.

THIS IS A MAJOR ISSUE THAT WE NEED TO INSIST ON REAL ANSWERS.

2) Plans for fighting the tax increase: a major portion of the tax increase is due to the 'paper' value that SVO/WKORV puts on these VOIs. However, as we all know, the real value of these VOIs is substaintially less that the value that SVO/WKORV on them.


As has been discussed - other HI TSs are not seeing the same MF increases - especially if you look at the % increase since 2005 (~90%) - this also needs to be questioned and seriously answered.

 

[thinze3]

GULP!

Imagine that poor sales person sitting there telling a prospective buyer, "For a mere $110,000 you can buy this deluxe corner unit, AND the annual fees are only about $3000."

MSC is showing the MFs for the 2Bd LO Dlx as $3,076.69 this is an increase of 25.1% from the 2009 MF of $2,459.73.

Since 2005 - a 90% increase:
2005 $1,623.77
2006 $1,813.16 (11.7%)
2007 $1,954.27 (7.8%)
2008 $2,203.79 (12.8%)
2009 $2,459.73 (11.6%)
2010 $3,076.69 (25.1%)

anyone ready to start the battle yet?

 

[YYJMSP]

Not quite 25%

I forgot this the first time I posted the numbers, but you have to remember that the new MF numbers probably include the 2009 tax shortfall (one-time I hope of ~$125) and then the 2010 tax increase vs previous budget (~$265 I think it was).

If you take those out of the equation, the increase is 9% this year. If you assume the 2010 increase will stick around, then the increase is 20% this year, but that's a slightly skewed percentage.

 

[jerseygirl]

I just don't know how they're going to keep the place up with only $10,000 a month per apartment to work with.

:hysterical: Very nicely put!

 

[DavidnRobin]

sorry - not buying it - it is 25.1%. If any change is observed in future MFs it will be accounted for then, but 'don't count the chickens before they are hatched' - meaning - it is 25.1% this year - if it drops in the future MFs great - but if past MFs (why I showed them back to 2005) is any indication of future MFs - I would not count on it until 2011 and 2012 MF bills are sent out.

this argument of it's only 9% sounds like the same fuzzy math that is used by TS salespeople to sell TSs (e.g. "the SP conversion alone pays for the VOI...")

 

[LisaRex]

I forgot this the first time I posted the numbers, but you have to remember that the new MF numbers probably include the 2009 tax shortfall (one-time I hope of ~$125) and then the 2010 tax increase vs previous budget (~$265 I think it was).

If you take those out of the equation, the increase is 9% this year. If you assume the 2010 increase will stick around, then the increase is 20% this year, but that's a slightly skewed percentage.

It's a sad day when a 9% increase is accepted as just another ho-hum. The economy is in the toilet, people are losing their jobs, MF delinquencies are up...and Starwood is just expecting people to absorb this kind of hit. Again.

They're asking $350 a day to run what is supposed to be a NON-PROFIT association. They are now collecting $122,000 PER APARTMENT per month to clean the units twice a week and take out the trash. Even if you take out taxes of $800 per unit, that comes to over $83,000 per apartment per month.

That is horrendous mismanagement AT BEST.

 

[YYJMSP]

(e.g. "the SP conversion alone pays for the VOI...")

I guess it depends on how you use your ownerships...

In five years, we've never actually stayed at any of the SVN properties. Each year, we've exchanged for SPG points. This coming year will actually be the first time we'll be using our units for an extended family get-together.

With careful planning and use of those SPG points, I feel we've managed to get approx. three times the dollar value in hotel rooms vs. what we paid in MFs each year on average, based on rates I would pay Starwood directly for those rooms. I realize this may not be completely reflective of better deals I could get on those same hotel rooms through some other booking route, but then again, the same may apply to the other side of the equation -- we might be able to get access to our ownership units in some cheaper way.

We typically plan about 3 years in to the future. Even with MFs going up 10% each year, I think we'll continue to do well with value for ownership. This was part of the assumptions I used when we purchased our first unit.

Of course, this is all contingent on the continuing relationship between the timeshare and hotel sides of Starwood. If the ability to exchange in the way we do goes away, so does the value of our owned units to us.

Final note -- your individual results may vary quite dramatically. Just because it works for us doesn't mean it will work for anyone else. It's extremely dependant on what you want out as the end result, and how you can take best advantage of what you own.

 

[DanCali]

I forgot this the first time I posted the numbers, but you have to remember that the new MF numbers probably include the 2009 tax shortfall (one-time I hope of ~$125) and then the 2010 tax increase vs previous budget (~$265 I think it was).

If you take those out of the equation, the increase is 9% this year. If you assume the 2010 increase will stick around, then the increase is 20% this year, but that's a slightly skewed percentage.

Since 2005 - a 90% increase:
2005 $1,623.77
2006 $1,813.16 (11.7%)
2007 $1,954.27 (7.8%)
2008 $2,203.79 (12.8%)
2009 $2,459.73 (11.6%)
2010 $3,076.69 (25.1%)

YYJMSP - if I buy the "only" 20% increase this year and move $125 to 2009, that means that the increase in 2009 (relative to 2008) was higher and the increase in 2010 (relative to adjusted 2009) was even lower than you claim:

2005 $1,623.77
2006 $1,813.16 (11.7%)
2007 $1,954.27 (7.8%)
2008 $2,203.79 (12.8%)
2009 $2,459.73 + $125 = 2584.73 (17.3%)
2010 $3,076.69 -$125 = 2951.69 (14.2% relative to 2009 adjusted number)


That still doesn't change the fact that over 5 years MFs almost doubled so this fuzzy math doesn't change much. Exclude the taxes to get your 9% increase and it's still unjustified at this, or any other resort - especially in this economy when prices and energy costs went down relative to last year. Even Marriott was not greedy this year...

 

[DavidnRobin]

I guess it depends on how you use your ownerships...

In five years, we've never actually stayed at any of the SVN properties. Each year, we've exchanged for SPG points. This coming year will actually be the first time we'll be using our units for an extended family get-together.

With careful planning and use of those SPG points, I feel we've managed to get approx. three times the dollar value in hotel rooms vs. what we paid in MFs each year on average, based on rates I would pay Starwood directly for those rooms. I realize this may not be completely reflective of better deals I could get on those same hotel rooms through some other booking route, but then again, the same may apply to the other side of the equation -- we might be able to get access to our ownership units in some cheaper way.

We typically plan about 3 years in to the future. Even with MFs going up 10% each year, I think we'll continue to do well with value for ownership. This was part of the assumptions I used when we purchased our first unit.

Of course, this is all contingent on the continuing relationship between the timeshare and hotel sides of Starwood. If the ability to exchange in the way we do goes away, so does the value of our owned units to us.

Final note -- your individual results may vary quite dramatically. Just because it works for us doesn't mean it will work for anyone else. It's extremely dependant on what you want out as the end result, and how you can take best advantage of what you own.

I am very familiar with the SO-SP conversion math - and the value of SPs within SPG (I just used 225K SPs myself) - I can come up with many more scenerios of better uses for SO that do not involve SO-SP conversion. Granted - it is nice to have the flexability, but most SO-SP conversions for SVO resorts are very poor.

Since you are not forthcoming with specific details - it makes me wonder...
I can give many examples of poor SO-SP conversions (WKORV, WPORV, WSJ {especially} are all very poor - only WKV comes even close) and while I appreciate you making the best of your usage and planning - many of us do - so this is not unique... so tell me - which resorts are you converting, how much are the MFs - and what would be the corresponding usage via SVN and renting? I do both - I would never - unless stuck - convert my WPORV or WKORV - and while I cannot convert WSJ - I would not convert that either. WSJ gives 22K SPs for 81K SOs and has a base MF of $2000.

Re: trying to establish the MFs increase of 25% as 9% - I own 6 VOIs (5 EY and 1 EOY) - WSJ just saw an increase of 25% in their base MFs and yet taxes are not paid via the MFs. In fact the only one so far that seems reasonable is WKV (but haven't seen WPORV yet). 25% is what it is - if you depend on SVO/WKORV making good on future MFs - you are deluding yourself.

SVO is clearly playing both ends of the game - they take the unused VOIs from deliquent/defaulted owners - and use them for their own value without a transparent or reasonable way to pay back the HOAs.

Considering that this expected 10% is compounded year-to-year - and that is acceptable - makes me wonder...

 

[LisaRex]

SVO is clearly playing both ends of the game - they take the unused VOIs from deliquent/defaulted owners - and use them for their own value without a transparent or reasonable way to pay back the HOAs.

They also want to play both ends of the game by commanding a huge profit on the front end AND the back end. I'm furious and I bought resale! I can't imagine how the folks who paid thousands of dollars to the developer will feel when they open up their MF letters.

What they're doing isn't nice, isn't fair, and isn't ethical. I can't believe there is anyone left, even the most ardent Starwood supporter, who can't see clearly that Starwood is taking wild advantage of the fact that they have a captive audience completely at their mercy. And we can't even sell our timeshares in this economy without losing thousands and thousands of dollars.

Instead of handing over ownership to the owners, which is what they're supposed to do, they sold their cake for top dollar and now want to feast on it.

 

[YYJMSP]

$12K MFs = 480K SPG = $45K value

so tell me - which resorts are you converting, how much are the MFs - and what would be the corresponding usage via SVN and renting?

Our WKORV and WKORVN units both give 148,100 SO = 80,000 SPG.

The 4 years 2006-2009, I converted WKORV (annual) and WKORVN (even years) for a total of 480,000 SPG points. Someone can add up the MFs, but let's say for the sake of discussion that they're somewhere around $12,000 for that period.

I used those SPG points to get over 100 days of holidays staying in Starwood-branded hotels for a month in Europe, multiple 2 week trips along both coasts of the USA, a couple of winter weeks in Whistler and Aspen, 2 weeks in the Bahamas, etc, and dozens of short weekend getaways.

If I'd paid for those same rooms using Starwood's web site at the same time I booked the room with the SPG points, I would have paid approx. $45,000 -- the 29 days in Europe in mostly suites gave me over $23,000 of value alone. I'm a little OCD that way -- I like to keep track of how much I "saved".

I am not suggesting that this is by any means a typical expected return on the MFs, but for me, this specific type of use was part of my calculations when I decided to buy in to SVN instead of one of the other timeshare systems that we'd been introduced to over the few years previous...

 

[Ken555]

This really isn't the right thread for this discussion.

Search a bit and you'll find lots of comments on the merits for and against conversion.

Our WKORV and WKORVN units both give 148,100 SO = 80,000 SPG.

The 4 years 2006-2009, I converted WKORV (annual) and WKORVN (even years) for a total of 480,000 SPG points. Someone can add up the MFs, but let's say for the sake of discussion that they're somewhere around $12,000 for that period.

I used those SPG points to get over 100 days of holidays staying in Starwood-branded hotels for a month in Europe, multiple 2 week trips along both coasts of the USA, a couple of winter weeks in Whistler and Aspen, 2 weeks in the Bahamas, etc, and dozens of short weekend getaways.

If I'd paid for those same rooms using Starwood's web site at the same time I booked the room with the SPG points, I would have paid approx. $45,000 -- the 29 days in Europe in mostly suites gave me over $23,000 of value alone. I'm a little OCD that way -- I like to keep track of how much I "saved".

I am not suggesting that this is by any means a typical expected return on the MFs, but for me, this specific type of use was part of my calculations when I decided to buy in to SVN instead of one of the other timeshare systems that we'd been introduced to over the few years previous...

 

[DanCali]

Instead of handing over ownership to the owners, which is what they're supposed to do, they sold their cake for top dollar and now want to feast on it.

I've talked in the past about my conspiracy theory... My guess is that after they feast of the cake, they will also want "help" owners with the MF burden and buy it back for free.