[2008] Southcape Resort

[wmauryd]

off season rental and occupancy,

Hi David

Most of the off season weeks are used for exchange.

Because of the lack of off season rental activity, a fully sold out resort is critical to a resort's financial health. If off season weeks go delinquent, it's very difficult to rent those weeks to recover the maintenance fee. That's why a good sales program to replace those owners is so important. If you need more details, let me know.

Cliff,

Thank you for this reply and your reply days ago. Yes, tell us more details about why a good sales program is so important.

I agree that a fully sold out resort is best for financial health, but once a resort like Southcape is fully sold, isn't there a problem with some of those off season weeks? If everyone who owns them, trades them, then isn't there an RCI or II trade imbalance? I suppose that's RCI and II's problem, at least for a while. Wouldn't there be a tendency for greater deliquency in those off season weeks? And wouldn't reclaiming, or foreclosing, off-season delinquent weeks have its own problems? I heard one year and $2000 quoted as the time and price to reclaim a unit, when I attended an owners meeting at BG resort.

Would it make any financial sense to reduce the mx fees (now here's an inflammatory idea the premium-week owners will love) for weeks occurring during the long Massachusetts winter? The purpose being to stabilize ownership and reduce foreclosures?

Those roads through the pine barrens would make great cross-country ski trails when there's snow. Has anyone ever brought their skis to the resort?

David M.

 

[ecwinch]

I see something wrong with that. He, IMO, realized that he might be disclosing contract information that he shouldn't have revealed after I responded. He did not alter his post IMO because he felt bad about it, he changed his post IMO because he realized that he might have discussed private contracts that he wasn't allowed to legally discuss, and his comments might have opened himself and his company up to being sued by SOU. He never apologized, just changed his post. If a copy of his post was sent to legal I would bet that they said get rid of that post and don't say anything like that in writing ever again. I am just guessing. The bad news for that poster is that I posted my response and copied his quote verbatim before he changed it. No matter what his post says now my quote is what he originally said and there are plenty of TUGGERS who read the original post as I copied it. I posted mine at 4:28 PM on April 1st, and the original post I copied the quote from was edited on April 2nd at 10:05 AM.

Yes - I am one of those who read it originally. But this is almost like we have a way-back machine. I think we should all begin revising our previous posts to the board. Do not worry about being quoted , that can be changed.

Think about it - we can go back and make ourselves seem smarter. Heck I can go back to Friday and work in something about how I think the market is going to hit 8000 next week. Maybe then I will not feel so insecure about my intelligence.

Oh wait - read my post back in 05, where I predicted that Obama would be President.

 

[tombo]

Yes - I am one of those who read it originally. But this is almost like we have a way-back machine. I think we should all begin revising our previous posts to the board. Do not worry about being quoted , that can be changed.

Think about it - we can go back and make ourselves seem smarter. Heck I can go back to Friday and work in something about how I think the market is going to hit 8000 next week. Maybe then I will not feel so insecure about my intelligence.

Oh wait - read my post back in 05, where I predicted that Obama would be President.

XXXX wanted his post removed (duhh), and unfortunatelly that has been done. If someone has or can find the original quote please post it.

 

[Russ45]

Hi Russ

I really hate to seem like I'm avoiding these legal questions, but the fact is, I have to. Much of what you're asking in the first paragraph is legal in nature. Some of the questions you raise are also involved in litigation with the resort which began before I got involved. I just hope you can understand why i can't comment on subjects involving current litigation.

What I can say is that everything that has been done was done under the guidance and supervision of several law firms that specialize in these matters.

As to your side note, I think you are absolutely right and i wish we had done things a bit differently. I can't change it but I do regret it. I can tell you that the notice was modeled exactly after special assessment notices that have been sent out by two of the country's leading management firms. We did not just make it up. That very type of notice has been used for several years with great success by each of these companies. While we've only heard from a handful of owners with similar comments to yours, I happen to agree with you. I could tell you we won't do it again, but I don't see the need for another special assessment. By the way, we've had a great response from the owners who have sent in their assessment. The work has been started and it all looks great.

Thanks Cliff, I understand about the legal response on an online forum. Could you at least answer my question about the timing of the Board of Trustees election, as that is not subject to legal interpretation. I have sent you a private letter where you and the attourneys may answer the questions in my letter similar to some of the questions posted above.

 

[w.bob]

Hi Russ
I could tell you we won't do it again, but I don't see the need for another special assessment. By the way, we've had a great response from the owners who have sent in their assessment. The work has been started and it all looks great.

Cliff,

Can you give me a rundown as to what improvements will be made with the $400.00 assessment. What has been started? What is completed? & What is pending?

What is the estimate for all work to be done & do you see any further upgrades in the near future?

I hope we can hold you to your statement that you see no need for another special assessment. I understand the need for a special assessment in order to upgrade the resort but I would feel a whole lot better if you, the developer would have paid some type of an assessment per unit as a good faith gesture since the improvements to the unsold units will bring you a better price for the sales you are so confident that you can achieve. If you did pay a portion of the assessment it would have lowered the quote of $400.00 per interval for the current owners.

I hope to be at the annual meeting in May. Can you post the date,time & location here so owners can plan to attend.

I am going to stay out of the "legal' issues going on here but I hope the bickering does not escalate. I like the fact that I can get two sides of the story even though I do not always agree with everything that is posted by all parties. Since you can not answer the legal related questions maybe you can refer the poster to someone who can. I hope you continue to answer questions directed at you by both owners & non owners. You never know they may be a future owner.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Hi David

Since I became involved in Brewster Green, a sold out resort, I've sold 1,186 weeks, almost half of the resort. Most of those weeks were either owned by the association or were owned by delinquent owners. In either case, they were not paying maintenance fees. Had I not been there, what would have happened to the resort? Had I not been there, how many owners would have tried to list their weeks for sale with one of the "upfront fee" timeshare resale companies. To the best of my knowledge, none of the upfront fee companies have sold a week at Brewster Green. If you take an average maintenance fee of $500, we've added or replaced over half a million a year in maintenance fee income to the resort.

There is a problem with off season weeks. They are the most likely to become delinquent. If you take the position that they're off season and therefore not worth anything, who in their right mind would want to buy them? When we sell them, we spend a lot of time making sure that buyers are realistic in their expectations of what an off season week will and will not do for them. They also know that, if for some reason it doesn't work for them, they can always list it for sale with us again and have a way to get out. Everybody wins. We don't foreclose, we act as a real estate broker and list and sell weeks before the owner ends up going delinquent. It's a good program. The exchange imbalance is something both RCI and II are well aware of and the specifically plan for that in their exchange program. We still have a lot of inbound exchange guests throughout the year.

In most cases, the maintenance fees cannot be adjusted according to demand or seasonality. Massachusetts law requires that maintenance fees be assessed in certain ways and the resort has no choice. It can be a real problem when the maintenance fee exceeds the rental value of a week but we've found ways to overcome that problem as well.

I don't know about people bringing their skis but we always tell people that it rarely snows on Cape Cod. Of course the last few winters have certainly proved us wrong! At the Ponds at Foxhollow, cross country skiing is very popular but then, winter is considered red time out there.

Cliff

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Hi Russ

I have your letter and haven't answered it yet as I've been out of work for the past week or so. I will answer when I get back to work. Even then, I can't comment on legal issues or pending litigation.

Actually, the election of a board is a matter of legal interpretation and i'll try to give you an idea of the scope of the problem. There are several conflicting condo docs at Southcape, all of which were written prior to the adoption of MGL 183B. Are they grandfathered? If so, which one prevails? Are they not grandfathered and do they have to be amended? These questions should have been answered twenty years ago but never were. We're addressing these issues and, until they're resolved, I just can't give you definitive answers.

 

[tombo]

Yes - I am one of those who read it originally. But this is almost like we have a way-back machine. I think we should all begin revising our previous posts to the board. Do not worry about being quoted , that can be changed.

Think about it - we can go back and make ourselves seem smarter. Heck I can go back to Friday and work in something about how I think the market is going to hit 8000 next week. Maybe then I will not feel so insecure about my intelligence.

Oh wait - read my post back in 05, where I predicted that Obama would be President.

Thanks to a TUGGER's research the original post has been found. The original unedited quote was found on the Google archived copy of the page. It won't be lost again because myself and several others have it archived in our e-mails other than TUG Here it is again :

I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated. Apparently that owner hasn't told everyone that that owner told me that they had purchased a membership in Festiva, had second thoughts and asked what I thought they should do. I told them that if they didn't want it, call Outfield and I was certain they would cancel their membership, refund their money and deed their week back to them. I understand that's exactly what happened. Gee, Outfield and Festiva must be greedy robber barons too. All of this happened after the recision period expired by the way. I will also tell you that they are not the only ones that Outfield and Festiva did this for.
So, Eric, come on down!!!

Cliff

The above quote is the original. Below is what the OP requested to have his post edited to read. I think in fairness both should remain since both have sparked discussions, and probably will continue to do so.

Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC
I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated. It might surprise people to learn that I hear from new Festiva owners from Southcape and they love Festiva. but, then again, you probably think I'm lying about that as well. Oh well, all I can do is tell you truth. I can't make you believe it.
So, Eric, come on down!!!


Cliff
[Quote edited to reflect edit of original post, at request of NEVMSLLC. The edit removed NEVMSLLC's statement that Outfield had on several occasions refunded the purchase after the expiration of the rescission period. - Makai Guy, BBS Administrator]

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Hi w.bob

Over a third of the resort have roofs that are over 30 years old. Those roofs are leaking and causing a significant amount of damage. We are replacing all of the older roofs.

On a similar number of buildings, the siding is original and is rotting. The rot is beginning to affect the structural integrity of the buildings. All of the siding is being replaced.

In almost half of the resort, the outside trim has not been repainted and is peeling off. In some buildings, the paint has been taken down to bare wood. We are repainting all of the trim.

A number of the septic systems have failed and the town wanted us to put in a sewage treatment plant. So far, I've been able to negotiate with the town and the MA DEP to permit us to repair the existing systems rather than build a treatment plant. That alone should save us almost a million dollars. Repairs needed to begin immediately as part of the negotiation.

Twenty four units have not had an interior upgrade in almost 20 years. We are completely refurbishing those units. Just as an aside, NEVS has almost no inventory for sale in any of those unit.

The existing computer system was written by a banker and is almost unusable. We're installing a state of the art computer system which will give us accurate information and to be able to establish and monitor a budget which has never been done before.

We are installing wireless internet throughout the resort.

We have replaced all of the fitness equipment where none worked.

The resort has been running at an operating loss for the last few years and maintenance fees have not kept up with the actual expenses of running the resort. The assessment will fund last years operating loss so the 2009 budget will be balanced and so will budgets in future years.

Those are the major items and they come to over a million dollars. The work on the roofs and siding is almost complete. Painting will start when the weather improves. The septics will begin when we have a solid agreement with the town and the DEP. Wireless internet is being installed as is the computer system. Renovations on the interiors will begin next fall as we don't have time to complete them before the start of the season.

Cliff

 

[e.bram]

Notice who cites laws when it fits into his argument.

 

[ecwinch]

Hi Russ
What I can say is that everything that has been done was done under the guidance and supervision of several law firms that specialize in these matters.

Cliff,

This is the second time you made this disclaimer. For the interest of the owners on the board, can you provide the names of the law firms that were party to this review and supervision, and who they represented?

Obviously there was NEVMSLLC. And probably an attorney representing the previous developer. In particular, which law firm represented the Trust, and by whom were they compensated (if other than the Trust). Have any other parties reviewed the activities to date?

Also, it appears that there is not a owners association at Southcape. Is that correct?. There is only NEVMSLLC as the DEVELOPER, and the Trust.

If you choose not to answer I will understand, hopefully one of the owners will raise the question.

 

[Sou13]

Spent an hour here already and still not caught up

Cliff,

I did not imply that at all. My statement was "who benefits the MOST". Or course the owners benefit, and they should - because they are paying for the refurbishment.

I really cannot believe you see this as equitable. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you see it the same way?

I will leave it to others to vouch for your reputation at the other resorts you have been involved with. With so many "happy" owners it should be easy.

And to close the loop - what are your motives?

I've been here an hour trying to figure out what to do and have yet to see an answer to this one, so I'll chime in here:

And to close the loop - what are your motives?

Going through all posts since this question I find these:

Southcape Resort
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC
Hi w.bob Over a third of the resort have roofs...

Hi w.bob

Over a third of the resort have roofs that are over 30 years old. Those roofs are leaking and causing a significant amount of damage. We are replacing all of the older roofs.

On a...
Forum: US - Eastern April 3, 2009, 09:24 AM
Replies: 335 Southcape Resort
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC
Hi Russ I have your letter and haven't answered...

Hi Russ

I have your letter and haven't answered it yet as I've been out of work for the past week or so. I will answer when I get back to work. Even then, I can't comment on legal issues or...
Forum: US - Eastern April 3, 2009, 09:17 AM
Replies: 335 Southcape Resort
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC
Hi David Since I became involved in Brewster...

Hi David

Since I became involved in Brewster Green, a sold out resort, I've sold 1,186 weeks, almost half of the resort. Most of those weeks were either owned by the association or were owned by...
Forum: US - Eastern April 2, 2009, 11:21 PM
Replies: 335 Southcape Resort
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC
Hi David I could probably write a treatise on...

Hi David

I could probably write a treatise on your question, but I'll try to sum up my feelings as best I can. On Cape Cod, there are basically three types of resorts: purpose built like the Cove...
Forum: US - Eastern April 2, 2009, 09:22 PM
Replies: 335 Southcape Resort
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC
Hi Russ I really hate to seem like I'm avoiding...

Hi Russ

I really hate to seem like I'm avoiding these legal questions, but the fact is, I have to. Much of what you're asking in the first paragraph is legal in nature. Some of the questions you...
Forum: US - Eastern April 1, 2009, 05:35 PM
Replies: 335 Southcape Resort
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC
OK, Eric, I guess you're not coming to visit. ...

OK, Eric, I guess you're not coming to visit. Here we go:

1. Every owner I've spoken or communicated with about the issue knows that NEVS is not obligated to pay maintenance fees or assessments. ...

Now I know why the red flags went up when Cliff Hagberg gave me that nonsensical answer to my question about the inventory on the IVS website. I knew I had to take everything he said with more than a grain of salt.

If anyone should be taking legal action against anyone, I'm considering taking it against the TUG Administrator who edited Hagberg's, tombo's, and my posts. Now I can't trust anything I read here. And to think that I was thinking that I might just be going a wee bit crazy!

Believe me, I'm more than an unhappy Southcape owner. I'm sorry I ever came to visit back in the 80s!

 

[ecwinch]

IIf anyone should be taking legal action against anyone, I'm considering taking it against the TUG Administrator who edited Hagberg's, tombo's, and my posts.

Sou13 - as you know there is a post in the About TUG BBS forum on this topic. I think it is best to chalk it up to the fact that BBS Mods are not immune to smooth talkers either, and move on.

 

[Sou13]

I replied and now he wants to close the discussion

Sou13 - as you know there is a post in the About TUG BBS forum on this topic. I think it is best to chalk it up to the fact that BBS Mods are not immune to smooth talkers either, and move on.

I replied and now he wants to close the discussion and I don't trust him not to edit any of my posts.
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94987&goto=newpost

 

[tombo]

Since Cliff's post that he got edited has been reposted in it's original glory, I wouldn't be surprised if he took his ball and went home. He told the moderator that his lawyer said that he should remove the post as I surmised his lawyer would.I bet the lawyer was not happy with the contents of that post coming from a Trustee and CEO.

In my opinion he has opened the door to letting people out of their contracts even after the recission period has ended. Supposedly you can't enforce contracts in a random manner, you supposedly have to enforce them unilaterally and each and every time. Lawyers will decide whether others can get out in the future or not. If I had purchased and wanted out, I would call Outfield immediatelly and ask to be released from the sale. I would document times, dates, and what was said. If they wouldn't return my week and money i would give all details to an attorney to see what he could do and I would give him a copy of the post stating that Outfield and Festiva had let others out after the recission period. In fact the NEVMS CEO and Outfield trustee told a buyer to call outfield and tell them that they didn't want it and he was certain that they would cancel.

 

[Fig]

Since Cliff's post that he got edited has been reposted in it's original glory, I wouldn't be surprised if he took his ball and went home.

I certainly hope that is not the case. I've learned a lot from the discussions on both sides. Yeah, he talks from his perspective...yeah, he spins, but he gave a lot of interesting info as well. I think we can ferret out a lot of the sales opinion from fact on our own. When he calls Outfield Marketing one of the best sales and marketing companies in the country, you gotta pretty much figure he is going to say that as the developer who hired them and profits by their sales. What's neat is being able to take that statement and juxtapose it with one resort and two major forums all decrying the practices of Outfield...and have it read and hyperlink all in the same post!

What's in it for Cliff? I think there are perhaps more than a few Southcape and Sandcastle lurkers here...I don't believe that the 8,000 views are from people who own time shares in the Hawaii. To the extent that he gets things ironed out in this forum, he gets some of the groundwork laid for his upcoming meetings at both properties from the comfort of his computer. And, owners get answers too...might not always be the answers they want, but this forum has gone a long way toward answering why and how Southcape owners got assesments on blank letterhead for hundreds of dollars.

It's also educated a bunch of us who do not own at Southcape, but are VERY interested in the issues facing the properties, because we might be faced with the very same issues at Southcape or some property like it someday.

So post on, Tombo, Sou, Cliff, Russ, the Erics, Sanford and others. Let's keep the learning going.

 

[ecwinch]

For me, the cautionary tale is to always determine if the resort has an owner elected board. If it does not, then you can almost always assume that the resort is still under developer control. So the checklist goes:

- Does the resort have an owner elected board
- Is the resort still under developer control
- What percentage of the vote does the developer control
- Check by-laws to determine when developer control will expire

I was floored when I learned that this was a resort that was built 30 years ago and was still under developer control. You would think that to be impossible. And then when it came out that there was a substantial amount of developer inventory not contributing to m/f or assessments, I just could not believe it. Then to have it compounded with by-laws that would prevent owners from ever having control -- unfathomable.

By and large, I think this is just reflective of the relative maturity of the timeshare industry. This situation really cries out for some legislative relief in Mass., as it violates numerous basic tenets of property ownership. Other states have statues that specifically terminate developer control a set number of years after the public offering/development plan is filed.

Like others have mentioned - I have learned a lot in this thread. Had no idea something like this could exist. I feel sorry for all you happy owners here and at Sandcastle.

 

[Sou13]

Let's take a closer look at this

I've posted this before and it merits another look. Go to
http://www.assessedvalues.com/search.zhtml?jurcode=172
Enter "950" in Loc1 and "Falmouth" in "Location"

Entry 6996 shows that on Dec. 7, 1989, the Town of Mashpee acquired a parcel valued at $2.5 million from "First American Bank For" and in later years added smaller parcels to the land seized from Southcape Resort.

Here's a hypothetical scenario. Barth and Woods bought the developer rights but had the parcel on which those rights could be exercised seized by the Town of Mashpee. All further development stopped but Southcape II never sold out and Barth and Woods finally let Southcape fall into the possession of NEVS.

Meanwhile, NEVS didn't exist when Cliff Hagberg tried on numerous occasions to purchase the developer rights from Barth and Woods. Neither did the Festiva Adventure Club.

Somehow NEVS came up with $1.5 million to purchase the developer rights from Barth and Woods and they finally let Cliff Hagberg get possession of those rights. Did Cliff Hagberg know then that the Town of Mashpee had seized the parcel on which those rights could have been exercised?

From my telephone conversation with Cliff Hagberg I got the impression that finding this out may have taken him by surprise. If it did, why should I trust NEVS and Outfield Marketing to be making decisions for Southcape Resort?

What if the Board of Trustees meets and decides to assess the owners for enough money to buy back that parcel of land so that the "developer" can build more than 100 additional units?

Oh, and the Board was supposed to be meeting sometime either at the end of March or early April.

 

[Fig]

I
Somehow NEVS came up with $1.5 million to purchase the developer rights from Barth and Woods and they finally let Cliff Hagberg get possession of those rights.

Sou, do you know any details on the $1.5? If NEVS has any cashflow problems on a loan, how can unit owners be assured they won't be paying the loan for those 500 units? I know Cliff hopes to sell the units, but they are not even getting $1 for Southcape units on Ebay. Prior to the collapse of the banking system in Sept the $1.5 deal might have looked like a slam-dunk for NEVS...but that was another time and another economy.

 

[Sou13]

Worth investigating

Sou, do you know any details on the $1.5? If NEVS has any cashflow problems on a loan, how can unit owners be assured they won't be paying the loan for those 500 units? I know Cliff hopes to sell the units, but they are not even getting $1 for Southcape units on Ebay. Prior to the collapse of the banking system in Sept the $1.5 deal might have looked like a slam-dunk for NEVS...but that was another time and another economy.

This is why I'm so suspicious of the whole deal, especially with two principals of Outfield Marketing being appointed to the Board. I suppose this is "classified" info or whatever way C. H. can use to not answer these questions.

I had some more concerns to raise that were keeping me awake at night but Mr. Hagberg is offline at the moment. Is March Madness over?

BTW it was nearly impossible for one of the two Steve's to not be booted off Dancing With the Stars.

 

[ecwinch]

If you read back through the applicable posts, you will see that the strategy is a "sales" driven approach. A well-managed and focused sales strategy when properly executed will "create" the market, increasing demand and in turn the sales price.

See the post indicating success when the sales price of units were increased tenfold, and the issues other resorts have had once this "sales driven" approach no longer was used at the resort.

 

[Sou13]

Sold to the highest bidder?

I'm serously considering offering my week to Cliff Hagberg for $10,000 after I've used my reserved time for 2009. That's how happy I am with the new face of Southcape Resort.

 

[ecwinch]

Part II - "I think it is genius"

First keep in mind that we are working with "the country's leading authority in timeshare resales". So once you realize that, all the rest falls into place.

And you know, if you pull back at look at his plan, you do have to admire the cunning of it:

1) Acquire the Developer rights at a 30-year old resort with "no single controlling document" regarding owner rights.
2) Improve the resort with assessments that only the current owners pay. Your DEVELOPER inventory is exempt from paying these costs.
3) Then begin marketing those weeks back to the owners that have paid to improve them, and at greatly increased prices.

I think this post spells out his plan:

I may be the country's leading authority in timeshare resales. Check me out on the internet with a Google search. At resort after resort, our sales breakdown pretty much like this. 60% to existing owners and owner referrals, 20% to exchangers, 10% to renters and about 10% from miscellaneous sources.

So essentially, the owners who fix it up will get the chance to buy more units at inflated prices. And what rubes they are. If they had seen the hand-writing on the wall, they could of got that week at 10% of future value. Here is the post regarding his success in doing that at Oceancliff:

when I first began a resale program at the Oceancliff in Newport, RI, the board was trying to sell association owned summer weeks for $800 and hadn't been able to sell any of them. Why would they? Owners had paid well over $10,000 when they bought in the 1980's. The first thing I did was raise the price to $8,000.

and at Brewster Green:

How about the fact that I sell delinquent weeks at Brewster Green as high as $18,000 and the Ponds at Foxhollow as high as $22,000? I say again, maybe I could benefit your resorts as well?

Now those resorts may be true "gems" - I do not know. But when I think what can be purchased for that amount - hmmh.

And it gets better. Because if you stop having this DEVELOPER involved in resales, then the resort goes back into decline as noted here:

Did you like what happened to Oceancliff after I sold all of the association weeks and the board thought they didn't need sales anymore? Did you like the special assessment you had a few years ago? Do you know how many delinquent owners your resort has now that I'm not there to sell for them anymore? Last I knew it was over 800 weeks not paying maintenance fees. Care to ask where Brewster Green was before they brought in professional management and me to do resales?

In all, I truly want to thank Cliff for participating. This has been an eye-opening experience and it is enlightening to see how DEVELOPERS view their customers. I apologize to all the SC owners who feel I might be bickering with Cliff and have diverted Cliff from his intended purpose of addressing the "number of untruths and misrepresentations that have appeared on this board ".

In the hope that Cliff will return to address questions from "owners" I will step out of this thread.

Thanks to all - it has been educational.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Thanks Eric

My thanks to you as well, Eric. It would have been fun to have these discussions face to face instead of days going by between posts. I've learned a lot as well.

I hope you don't mind one parting jab that I mean only as good fun. Aristotle, who pretty much invented the syllogism would have called this faulty reasoning because the major premise might not be universally true. I say might because I hope you would agree that it's at least possible that there might be one developer somewhere in the world who isn't evil! The major premise being the first statement:

All developers are evil
Cliff is a developer
Therefore, Cliff is evil!

:whoopie:

Don't you just love Michigan State??

Cliff

 

[ecwinch]

I was going to ride off in the sunset, but you are making it tough. So this will be my finally post. Feel free to get the last word in.

I will agree that there is one - and probably more than one - honest developer in the world. I notice that you are not claiming that title (sorry - had to return fire).

However if this is the definition of a honest developer:

- Avoids paying m/f and assessments on his inventory due to a dated development plan that provides him with that right
- Avoids having owner representation as voting members of the board, because that is his right
- Has business partners who have demonstrated a lack of ethical conduct, and been fined by various state agencies for this conduct, but continues to engage them as business partners

Then I think you win the argument. And as you well know the reverse logic is equally faulty:

Some developers are honest/good
Cliff is a developer
Cliff is honest/good

As they say - "We All Are Judged by the Company We Keep". For the benefit of the people who own at Southcape I hope you are what you say you are. Time will tell. I really hope to come back to this thread in a year, and read all the posts of happy SC owners. I sincerely mean that.

Till then.