[2008] SDKath's guide to 5* platinum [merged]

[Ken555]

It is apparent that definitive statements regarding point conversions can be confusing for the very reasons Jarta states. I agree that point conversions wouldn't work for me and appear to work for very few others, but unless you know the traveler and their habits, it's more appropriate to qualify a recommendation. Make sense?

I also used the US Air summer promotion to convert SPG points to US Air miles, though I don't (and can't) convert my t/s to points and simply use my AMEX SPG points. While I wasn't able to get the seats I wanted (on Swiss Air overseas), in the end I am using the 60k SPG points (112.5k US Air miles) for three Hawaii non-stop tickets on UAL (20k SPG points to Hawaii per ticket is a great deal). In fact, this was such a great deal I'll convert more in summer 2010 assuming they offer a similar promotion.

 

[jarta]

Ken555, ... Also, the statement is often made that it's never a good deal to convert Staroptions to Starpoints because "the conversion rate from timeshare to hotel points always benefits the developer - not the owner".

The benefit to the developer (some money coming in and ancillary sales) does not per se exclude benefit to the the owner. If that were true, no sale would ever benefit the buyer - unless the sale was a below cost loss leader.

Your and my Elite examples were air miles.

However, even on hotel reservations, the developer (Starwood) gets people already prone to vacationing at its hotels to reserve there using Starpoints. The Starpoint value could still give the hotel owner a profit on the transaction. But, that profit or benefit to the developer doesn't detract from the value to the 5 Star Elite person using the Starpoints for the reservation since the "cost" of the Starpoints is less than otherwise would be paid in making the reservation - in Europe and Asia, probably much, much less.

It need not be a zero sum game with 5 Star Elite owners being absolute losers because Starwood makes money. When a seller sells at a sales price, the profit goes down - but rarely to less than zero. When a buyer buys at a sales price, the money is saved - even if the seller makes a smaller profit. ... eom

 

[DeniseM]

I agree that first class overseas travelers can make good use of Starpoints, but in another thread, the OP has stated that he wants to buy into a system with the intention of converting to hotel points all the time. He said he gets bored going to the same place more than once, and he travels with a family of 5. Based on that scenario, I would not recommend becoming 5 Star Elite.

 

[jarta]

Denise, ... It still depends on where the OP goes and how he uses the Starpoints. Traveling with kids does not mean he doesn't often or regularly go to Asia or Europe or Dana Point or NYC (or anyplace else the Starpoints begin to mean something. That doesn't even take into account the Platinum Elite upgrades.

Again, it depends how the Starpoints will be used.

[jarta - I have repeatedly instructed you not to make your posts personal. This is you last warning - the next time you make personal remarks about another poster, you will be suspended from TUG. DeniseM Moderator]

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[Troopers]

Again, it depends how the Starpoints will be used.

I agree.

There is a premium paid by the owner when converting but let's not forget that the owner receives a huge benefit in flexibility. Flexibility in when to travel, where to travel, how long to travel and in what accommodations.

 

[pointsjunkie]

i have stated this before but the only reason we purchased our first timeshare at the Harborside was because the company offered the option to convert the timeshare TO STARPOINTS. we liked to know we had another option besides going to a timeshare, or using II. sometimes life happens and you can't get away and this left us with 6 years to use the starpoints.

i do convert 1 unit every year to points so i boost my starpoint account. i sleep well when i have 300,000 in the account.

starpoints have given many amazing vacations where there is no timeshare. it gives me the flexibility to stay in NYC any time i want and to go anywhere in the world anytime i want. the key word is FLEXIBILTY. i can go anytime i want which timeshares alone does not offer.

the conversion is not for everyone but it is the reason we started timesharing to begin with.

 

[DanCali]

However, the value of Starpoints depends on how you decide to use them. Example: it took me about $140K to get to 5 Star Elite. (Much less and much more flexible than buying a vacation home somewhere and TUG helped me knock off about $40K - or more - of the usual cost to get there by teaching me about retroing.) I started out in March of 2008 and I ended up with just about 500K Starpoints from the purchases.


So, how would I have done better by putting the $140K in a bank account or CD the last 2 years? I could maybe have bought the tickets. But, I wouldn't have had the enjoyment of ownership of the weeks, the extra 320K Starpoints or the left over US Air miles.

You failed to mention that if one were to undertake your strategy, they lose most of their investment right off the bat. For example, you say you invested $140K. If you were to liquidate your holdings today, you could hardly get $70K on the resale market, assuming generous valuations of $30K for the 3BR Harborside, $20K for WKV, and $5K for SVV and each of the WLR (in reality it's probably around 20% less, or around $55K). Moreover, unlike the stock market, this situation is highly unlikely to rebound.

So I for one beg to differ - there are much better ways to invest the money, even if you have it.

While I read this thread in detail a few months ago and had a plan all worked out to make 5* and SPG Plat for life, I realized that it would be less of a hassle to just flush $50K down the toilet and settle for regular sized rooms when I flash my SPG gold card - so I kept my most of my money in mutual funds and bought a couple of resale properties to satisfy my vacation needs

As you said - 5* is not for everyone...

 

[DeniseM]

Not to mention that based on current maintenance fee increases & past history, in 10 years, *$11K in maintenance fees will be $22K, but you will still get the same number of Starpoints that you got for $11K, AND Starwood will have raised the number of points required for hotel stays multiple times.

Or, worse case scenario, Starwood will eliminate the Elite program, and people who bought to convert to Starpoints will have multiple weeks of timeshares that they may or may not be able to use.

*$11K is what an elite owner recently posted that they paid in maintenance fees for 2010.

 

[jarta]

DanCali, ... What non-5 Star Elites fail to recognize is that the 5 Star Elites on TUG who have access to the Elite benefits do very little complaining here about how they got scammed and bamboozled by Starwood.

Have you ever asked yourself why? Do you put it down to embarrassment? I assure you it isn't.

You manage your investments the way you want to. I'll manage mine the way I want to. OK? ... eom

 

[pointsjunkie]

You failed to mention that if one were to undertake your strategy, they lose most of their investment right off the bat. For example, you say you invested $140K. If you were to liquidate your holdings today, you could hardly get $70K on the resale market, assuming generous valuations of $30K for the 3BR Harborside, $20K for WKV, and $5K for SVV and each of the WLR (in reality it's probably around 20% less, or around $55K). Moreover, unlike the stock market, this situation is highly unlikely to rebound.

So I for one beg to differ - there are much better ways to invest the money, even if you have it.

While I read this thread in detail a few months ago and had a plan all worked out to make 5* and SPG Plat for life, I realized that it would be less of a hassle to just flush $50K down the toilet and settle for regular sized rooms when I flash my SPG gold card - so I kept my most of my money in mutual funds and bought a couple of resale properties to satisfy my vacation needs

As you said - 5* is not for everyone...

i paid $120,000 for all my timeshares. so far i have had $78,000 worth of timeshare vacations( i went on rental sites to get prices for the weeks and size i rented to get the monetary value). i have many more trips to go and i rent out my units so my MF's have been paid for by the rentals for the last 3 years. in about 3 years my initial expense to purchase the timeshares will equal the vacations i have taken so i will be travelling for nothing. i think that is a great return on my investment.

that does not include any of the trips i have taken using starpoints and all the free airline tickets i have had.

 

[jerseygirl]

Barbra --

It's clear that you have mastered the art of maximizing points usage (have you seen the new George Clooney movie?!). But, for most people, it's not realistic to use the retail price that "would have been charged" (although I must admit that I too love thinking I'm "saving" $10000+ when I use my WSJ weeks!). The value, for most people, is what they would have spent.

Example -- We were at the Grand Mayan Riviera Maya last week. Until NY's Eve, when the resort reached 100% capacity, there were signs at the front desk stating "Rooms Available at the Following Rates." Our room was $1200/night. Would we have paid that? No way. It was a lovely resort -- we had a great time ... but there are much nicer places available all over the world for $1200 night. Before we got into timesharing, we probably would have paid $3000/$3500 -- that was our normal weekly rate for a villa rental. Now, we know we probably could have rented it from an owner for $1500 (or less). What's the real savings? $7000+ from the retail rate? I think it was more like $700 (our maint and exchange fees vs. renting from an owner). And, we have the ongoing obligation of ever-rising maintenance fees vs renting from someone else who has the ongoing obligation of ever-rising maintenance fees!

I realize it calculates differently for luxury hotels as they are not available for discounted rates from owners, but the same principles apply. A few years ago we went to Venice and paid a fortune to stay at the Bauer Hotel (no points). If we had had Westin points to use at the time, we would have stayed there. So -- I would agree that the money used for the Bauer Hotel could have counted toward "savings" since we would have saved "real money" by using points. But, most people (including most Tuggers) don't routinely spend $10000 on a hotel --- and you can do that a whole lot of times before you exhaust the excess capital needed for the privilege of converting. I think that's what Denise, DanCali and others are saying. It doesn't make sense for most people -- only those who routinely spend $10000 on a hotel room -- and that's a fairly small population of people.

I'm using SPs for a few luxury hotels in Europe in March. If I add up the "retail value," I'm sure it's close to, if not over, $10000. But, if I were "paying out of pocket," I know my bill would be much closer to $3000-$5000. So, that's all I consider the "savings" to be for using the SPs -- not the retail value.

 

[DanCali]

i paid $120,000 for all my timeshares. so far i have had $78,000 worth of timeshare vacations( i went on rental sites to get prices for the weeks and size i rented to get the monetary value). i have many more trips to go and i rent out my units so my MF's have been paid for by the rentals for the last 3 years. in about 3 years my initial expense to purchase the timeshares will equal the vacations i have taken so i will be travelling for nothing. i think that is a great return on my investment.

that does not include any of the trips i have taken using starpoints and all the free airline tickets i have had.

jerseygirl beat me to the punch... there are plenty of ways to do this math - e.g. you can look at rental rates on atlantisfamilyfun and think you are saving a lot, but you can get the same week on RedWeek for 1/3 of the price. I don't doubt that you are able to optimize the usage and rentals of your timeshare portfolio, but I just can't see this as a viable financial "investment". It's like owning a stock that pays a 10% dividend but loses 30% every year...

On top of that, even if MFs were stable and valuations were stable, and doing this would not mean a 50%+ loss upfront - personally, I don't need to own 6 weeks of timeshares (up to 12 with lockoffs). I wish we could use all that but we vacation 2-3 weeks a year and even if I could rent some weeks to offset MFs, I have no desire to wake up and call at 6am PST countless times in order to reserve prime weeks and be a vacation landlord.

Loyalty and all that is nice, but I don't think the timeshare division of Starwood earned my loyalty. I'll stick with one Starwood property for now, and 1-2 Marriotts. Diversification has its benefits too.

 

[DanCali]

5* Elite - Would You Do It All Over???

Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread.

We are all points junkies to some extent and I'm sure there are many who have debated this investment. It would be nice to also hear from other SVN 5* tuggers - if you had a chance to undo it, would you do it all over again? Why or why not?

 

[LisaRex]

I think the biggest arguments against using TSs to gain 5* status are:

1) The MF increases which are way outpacing inflation
2) The fact that the number of SPs you receive for converting remains the same while the MFs increase. So your conversion rate will dissipate as your MFs increase.
3) Starwood is the devil incarnate.

Well, okay, strike #3 as being slightly exaggerated.

That being said, whether or not you're well versed in milking the system for all it's worth or a first class traveler who pays retail for everything, there are still valid reasons for pursuing 5* status.

Besides, I've done lots of things in my life that don't make fiscal sense -- how many people here bought from the developer?? -- but make me happy. For instance, last year I spent 40k Marriott Reward points for massages at the Camelback Inn, which was a horrible return on the points, but made me insanely happy.

So I will definitely caution anyone who undertakes the 5* challenge to come in with their eyes wide open, crunch numbers. and educate themselves about the system and most especially the downsides. But, at the end of the day it's their money to spend however they please and whether they are frivolous spenders or frugal vacationers, I hope they find something valuable here to help them make an informed decision.

 

[jerseygirl]

Besides, I've done lots of things in my life that don't make fiscal sense -- how many people here bought from the developer?? -- but make me happy. For instance, last year I spent 40k Marriott Reward points for massages at the Camelback Inn, which was a horrible return on the points, but made me insanely happy.

How true LisaRex! Now, there's a good topic for a new thread -- things that are financially unsound but make one insanely happy! I'll start:

-- My car makes me happy, but I would certainly survive if I had a Kia (my rental car this week).
-- My art makes me smile everyday -- even the pieces hidden in closets because I'm out of wall space (my family now prevents me from entering galleries).
-- A different winter coat would keep me warm, but mine makes me feel warm AND fuzzy!
-- Flying first class on long flights make me happy, but coach would get me there just fine.
-- A nice watch makes me happy, when a Timex would provide the same functionality.

I agree that getting to 5 Star makes sense for some people -- but I think the most important point you made is:

3) Starwood is the devil incarnate.

Oops .... no, I meant that your point about "coming in with eyes wide open" is the most important thing. And, I think that Tug does an excellent job of pointing out both the benefits and the downsides to help a potential buyer make an educated decision about whether or not pursuing this path will make them insanely happy in the long term.

 

[pointsjunkie]

Barbra --

It's clear that you have mastered the art of maximizing points usage (have you seen the new George Clooney movie?!). But, for most people, it's not realistic to use the retail price that "would have been charged" (although I must admit that I too love thinking I'm "saving" $10000+ when I use my WSJ weeks!). The value, for most people, is what they would have spent.

Example -- We were at the Grand Mayan Riviera Maya last week. Until NY's Eve, when the resort reached 100% capacity, there were signs at the front desk stating "Rooms Available at the Following Rates." Our room was $1200/night. Would we have paid that? No way. It was a lovely resort -- we had a great time ... but there are much nicer places available all over the world for $1200 night. Before we got into timesharing, we probably would have paid $3000/$3500 -- that was our normal weekly rate for a villa rental. Now, we know we probably could have rented it from an owner for $1500 (or less). What's the real savings? $7000+ from the retail rate? I think it was more like $700 (our maint and exchange fees vs. renting from an owner). And, we have the ongoing obligation of ever-rising maintenance fees vs renting from someone else who has the ongoing obligation of ever-rising maintenance fees!

I realize it calculates differently for luxury hotels as they are not available for discounted rates from owners, but the same principles apply. A few years ago we went to Venice and paid a fortune to stay at the Bauer Hotel (no points). If we had had Westin points to use at the time, we would have stayed there. So -- I would agree that the money used for the Bauer Hotel could have counted toward "savings" since we would have saved "real money" by using points. But, most people (including most Tuggers) don't routinely spend $10000 on a hotel --- and you can do that a whole lot of times before you exhaust the excess capital needed for the privilege of converting. I think that's what Denise, DanCali and others are saying. It doesn't make sense for most people -- only those who routinely spend $10000 on a hotel room -- and that's a fairly small population of people.

I'm using SPs for a few luxury hotels in Europe in March. If I add up the "retail value," I'm sure it's close to, if not over, $10000. But, if I were "paying out of pocket," I know my bill would be much closer to $3000-$5000. So, that's all I consider the "savings" to be for using the SPs -- not the retail value.

i did not go to retail sites, i went to TUG, and vacationtimesharerental.com to see what the exact week and size would cost me, that is how i got that amount. i would never pay retail for a timeshare. when we go we get 3-4 rooms per trip especially to the Harborside and that will add up quickly. we have gone to the Harborside 5 times, each trip would cost me about $10,000 or more if i rented from someone.

 

[jarta]

[jarta - you have been suspended for 2 weeks. If you can follow the TUG rules, and moderators directions, you can return then. - DeniseM Moderator]

 

[oneohana]

Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread.

We are all points junkies to some extent and I'm sure there are many who have debated this investment. It would be nice to also hear from other SVN 5* tuggers - if you had a chance to undo it, would you do it all over again? Why or why not?

Hi Dan,

I've mostly been sitting on the sidelines just reading everyone's SVN posts.
Hindsight is 20/20. I'm not sure if I'd do it all over again, but I'm making the best of the situation. I knew what I was signing up for, and the risks involved.

No one could have seen the mf increase coming. Maybe I'm a SVN snob, but I feel that the resorts that I have been to are above the other hotel based timeshares except 4 Seasons.

I'm just an ordinary construction worker who "invested" in vacations. That to me has been priceless.

What good is money if you don't do something meaningful with it? There is a balance.

Maybe 5* people just see things differently. Not right or wrong just different.

One Ohana

 

[pointsjunkie]

Hi Dan,

I've mostly been sitting on the sidelines just reading everyone's SVN posts.
Hindsight is 20/20. I'm not sure if I'd do it all over again, but I'm making the best of the situation. I knew what I was signing up for, and the risks involved.

No one could have seen the mf increase coming. Maybe I'm a SVN snob, but I feel that the resorts that I have been to are above the other hotel based timeshares except 4 Seasons.

I'm just an ordinary construction worker who "invested" in vacations. That to me has been priceless.

What good is money if you don't do something meaningful with it? There is a balance.

Maybe 5* people just see things differently. Not right or wrong just different.

One Ohana

i am 5* and i totally agree with you. am i upset about the MF"s getting out of control, absolutely. the vacations i have been able to have with my family and friends are priceless.
the only reason i gave a dollar amount was to give credence to owning so many and to see when a good break even point would be if i decided to sell any of them in the future. it is out in left field logic but it works for me.

would i do it again, with the knowledge i have from TUG, i would own less in Orlando and more in AZ, so the MF's would be less but yes i would do it again. i travel once a month and if i didn't have them, and the starpoints, and the FF miles, i would travel maybe 2 times a year. and would not be staying in the caliber of places we stay in now. for us it has been a win, win investment.

 

[JimT]

My wife & I are discussing benefits of more weeks and 5*. Have a couple questions:

1) Is there a chart of MF by resort location?

2) Any changes to the process Katherine outlined? (what a great post!)

3) Do you have a favorite SVO rep? (Our rep left the company)

Thanks!! Happy Holidays!!!

Jim

 

[DeniseM]

At the top of the forum there is a link for current maintenance fees.

 

[Kildahl]

For those of you elite gurus, "Phantom points" available on any developer purchase?

 

[pointsjunkie]

Denise, ... I agree with the idea of getting a Starwood Amex card.

However, the value of Starpoints depends on how you decide to use them. Example: it took me about $140K to get to 5 Star Elite. (Much less and much more flexible than buying a vacation home somewhere and TUG helped me knock off about $40K - or more - of the usual cost to get there by teaching me about retroing.) I started out in March of 2008 and I ended up with just about 500K Starpoints from the purchases.

Last Summer I converted 180K Starpoints to US Air miles. With the 20% Starwood bonus for transferring out and the 50% US Air bonus for transferring in, I ended up with 327.5K US Air air miles.

I did this because my wife and I are going on a cruise to Istanbul, Greek Isles, Athens and the Black Sea this summer. A friend frrom NY is also going on the same cruise and he is taking care of us for the ground reservations in Istanbul before and after the cruise. So, I wanted to pay for his ticket to reciprocate.

With the 327.5K air miles, I bought 2 business class round trip tickets to Istanbul from Chicago (and the one from NY for my friend) on Turkish Airlines and still had 87.5K US Air air miles left over. Plus, I had 320K Starpoints still left over. The value of the 3 business class, almost 12-hour flight, tickets - about $15K.

So, how would I have done better by putting the $140K in a bank account or CD the last 2 years? I could maybe have bought the tickets. But, I wouldn't have had the enjoyment of ownership of the weeks, the extra 320K Starpoints or the left over US Air miles.

Or, how about a Category 6 Starwood accommodation at the Danieli in Venice or the Prince de Galles in Paris for 4 days (with the 5th day free) and a SPG Plat. upgrade. Is that not worth the Starpoints used?

Denise, it depends on how you would otherwise travel and how you use the Starpoints. But, because a TUG member travels another way, he/she cannot make the blanket statement that converting to Starpoints is never a "good deal." Sometimes, and for some travelers, it is a very good deal.

As I have pointed out to the OP, it's expensive to get to 5 Star Elite. 5 Star Elite is not for everyone. If you would already travel to the places where you can use 5 Star Elite to save money, do it. If you wouldn't, don't. ... eom

i totally agree with Jarta, 5* is not for everyone but the perks i have gotten and the many trips i take would not have been possible without being 5*. i converted 1 unit to starpoints in 2010 and just converted enough starpoints to Southwest and i just got a companion pass which i will give to my Mom and the trips and adventures we can now go on is fantastic. i travel 1 -2 weeks per month in the winter and using all the timeshares makes it easy to do.


i also converted starpoints to Usair during the 50% promo and have enough for 6 first class tickets to fly across the country or Hawaii or 12 coach tickets.

when you learn how to work the starpoints systems as well as the airline systems it is amazing of the places i can go.

 

[tomandrobin]

For those of you elite gurus, "Phantom points" available on any developer purchase?

I got phantom options for a resort that is not even Starwood.

 

[LisaRex]

For those of you elite gurus, "Phantom points" available on any developer purchase?

The way I understand it is that they're only given when you are close to reaching the next elite plateau. For instance, say you are closing on a developer purchase and you need 452,000 SOs to get to 4* status, but your new purchase will only get you to 432,000 SOs. Starwood may award you 20,000 "phantom" SOs to get you to 4*. The phantom SOs are for elite status perks only; you can't "spend" them to book TSs.

I don't know what the max phantom points they'll award.