DVC rental crackdown?

[TUGBrian]

I assumed in the eyes of disney, the point of the rule was to prevent commercial renting.

if i can rent something by giving my reservation or points to a broker and thats not considered commercial renting...thats a rather significant loophole!

 

[heathpack]

I assumed in the eyes of disney, the point of the rule was to prevent commercial renting.

if i can rent something by giving my reservation or points to a broker and thats not considered commercial renting...thats a rather significant loophole!

There’s a 100ish page thread on this topic on DisBoards. Basically lots of arguing about what constitutes commercial renting.

It seems there are owners with thousands of points who rent most of their points every year.

Then there’s owners with enough points to rent a portion of them each year for a profit that is sufficient to pay their MF.

Then there’s owners with approximately the number of points they think they need to travel to DVC resorts however frequently it is that they think they want to travel but for whom life varies and they rent semi occasionally.

Then there’s owners who use every point and would never rent.

Everyone seems to think the tier above them is the problem, and should be defined as a “commercial renter”.

I have no idea how to police this but I think the DVC rental broker who has dozens of stripped contracts listed for sale at any given time might be the obvious place to start.

 

[TUGBrian]

There’s a 100ish page thread on this topic on DisBoards. Basically lots of arguing about what constitutes commercial renting.

It seems there are owners with thousands of points who rent most of their points every year.

Then there’s owners with enough points to rent a portion of them each year for a profit that is sufficient to pay their MF.

Then there’s owners with approximately the number of points they think they need to travel to DVC resorts however frequently it is that they think they want to travel but for whom life varies and they rent semi occasionally.

Then there’s owners who use every point and would never rent.

Everyone seems to think the tier above them is the problem, and should be defined as a “commercial renter”.

I have no idea how to police this but I think the DVC rental broker who has dozens of stripped contracts listed for sale at any given time might be the obvious place to start.

sounds alot like some wyndham discussions here!

I doubt disney just decided on this policy all willy nilly out of the blue without some idea of what the focus of their crackdown is going to be.

 

[dioxide45]

Have we even seen any actual signs of such a crackdown? Perhaps still more to come.

 

[heathpack]

Have we even seen any actual signs of such a crackdown? Perhaps still more to come.

I have heard no reports of it. I’m a little fascinated by this in a weirdly disinterested way. Weird because it does affect me, I like owning a timeshare that’s super easy to rent. And the “obvious target” is the broker I would use to rent because they pay well and are a pleasure to work with.

But I somehow feel “I’m interested to see what DVC does” rather than having a strong opinion on what the outcome would be. Allegedly it will be easier to get reservations if the commercial renters are taken out. But I wonder if that’s actually true, or whether it’s just better for DVCs bottom line.

 

[frank808]

I dont buy this argument of people renting to other people will open availability and book easier for users . If resort is sold out (which most are) everyone is probably vying to book at a popular time. Regardless if it is a use based or rental based booking. Now the problem might be the spec renting that DVC alludes to. There are parties that book certain popular times to rent. This restriction might help that the units last a little longer availability wise.

IMHO, I dont believe this will be the holy grail that the anti renters make it out to be. Either way, a user or rental person will book the unit especially during popular times.

Does anyone know if the Wyndham Crack down makes it easier for everyone to book rooms generally? Did crack down open the availability of units where the dollar per night generated is higher for points used than other days?

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

 

[rickandcindy23]

Since my dates for Disney haven't aligned well with exchanges into Disney, I will start using our Disney points more. I have been renting more, absolutely, but now I need to just use them.

I am really more likely to use the points for Aulani, Hilton Head, and Vero Beach, with some OKW thrown in.

We have a few friends who are not in agreement with Disney's recent stance on issues, and it's affected their love of Disney. One is a friend of Rick's, a firefighter he worked with for years, another is a good friend of mine for many years who owns a lot of points, and she gives them to friends and family for her cost, just to keep from losing her points each year. It's tough for owners who used to love the Disney Magic and don't see it anymore.

We have been Pixie-Dusted a few times over the last 3 years with kids and grandkids, and I still think Disney has magical people working there. This last trip, our granddaughter was able to ride the Mermaid ride 8 times without getting off of the ride. She is three, and she loves that ride. She would start to fuss about not wanting to get off, and the cast member just let us go again and again. There was a line for the ride, yet here we were, riding it over and over. Her twin brother was not all that excited about riding it that many times.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Wyndham's crackdown was related to status owners who booked within 60 days at big discounts in points. We were those people.

I don't see a lot of inventory within 60 days now, as most people plan travel way ahead of 60 days. Even with my 60% discount within 60 days, I still plan travel way ahead. I see no reason to wait, if I need a 4 bedroom presidential for winter break, I am going to book it way ahead of everyone with my advantage of ARP included with my account.

People that complained about renters were very few. It was Wyndham who really wanted the rental income themselves. That is truth, and most people cannot accept it as such.

I am not even sure I want to keep the Wyndham points, even the Founder's level is not being used much at this point.

 

[Dean]

This is not DVC's first "crackdown" and likely won't be the last. Obviously there are many factors but one of the difficulties in cracking down is that for all but the newest resorts the POS specifically states that renting is allowed. Thus any crackdown would have to stand the legal test of that balance. I always get amused at those who state that any renting above maintenance fees is commercial renting or want to pull out a dictionary definition, both ridiculous IMO for several reasons. With the first crackdown a number of years ago they sent out letters to heavy hitters but I never heard of any enforcement beyond that. I do believe they could cut out the brokers if they wanted to get serious. I'm sure they do have complaints about rental availability without points availability but I believe the main issue is the competition to sales.

 

[Huskerpaul]

I have always hypothesized that Disney turned a blind eye towards rentals because they had data showing that those guests spend more on average than when owners use the rooms. No proof, just conjecture. I think Disney's stance has changed due to the rise of the "proactive" rental model where owners of large amounts of points make speculative reservations at 11 months, often targeting the cheapest point studios at place like Boardwalk, Animal Kingdom, and Aulani.

These are very visible rentals listed on numerous platforms. Right now on Redweek there are 159 reservations for Disney's Boardwalk available, 15 of those in May 2026, 11 months out when the booking window opens. There are 168 reservations for Animal Kingdom Jambo House and only 40 at Kidani, which has many more DVC units than Jambo. Jambo House is favored by the renters due to the 18 value studios which cost very few points. Aulani has 85 reservations available, many of which are the 8 hotel rooms that again cost very few points and are very rare. Almost all these Redweek listings are by DVC Shop and cross listed on their own website. There are even bigger players like DVC Rental Market. Owners are seeing these hard to get reservations get gobbled up. They then complain to DVC management because when they were buying they looked at the point charts and assumed that they would one of the rare few who got one of those hard to get reservations.

There have been companies around for many years that acted as middle men between potential renters and owners. Rental companies like David's operated on a "reactive" model. A potential renter contacted David's with the resort and dates they wanted and David's reached out to their list of owners from that resort who had contacted David's looking to rent their points. An owner then searches for the dates and makes a reservation for the renter. This worked much more organically and not unlike an owner would operate. No reservation was made until it had a ready renter.

With the rise of the proactive or spec rentals Disney could no longer do nothing. This very visible rental activity is just too blatant and clearly commercial (I'm looking at you DVC Shop). It will be interesting to see what Disney does from here.

 

[heathpack]

DVC Resale Market, which is the resale arm of DVC Rentals, always has dozens of aggressively priced stripped contracts for sale on “no negotiation” terms. As I understand it the many employees of this company all own large numbers of points. Individual owners like myself for sure rent points or reservations through them but also many of their rental reservations are made with their employee’s points that were purchased for the sole purpose of renting. Their business model seems to be to strip all points from those contracts for rental purposes and to list them for sale at a robust price but it’s not clear that they care too much whether these contracts sell. Maybe they just discount them eventually, or maybe they hang onto them until more points become available. I’m sure Disney never intended for tens of thousands of points to be held by a single business entity solely for the purpose of generating rental profit. I don’t really care if one person wants to own 2000 pts, use 300 personally each year and rent out the rest. However this is different from a company with many employees and many resources available to work towards snagging the best value reservations. I think it does impact the “regular” owners’ use of the product. So I guess I’d personally favor getting rid of the really big really obvious players but the 2000 pt relative small fry individual owner is something I can tolerate without much concern.

The enforcement of restrictions on transfers of points between use years is an example of a consequence of mega renters that is a hassle for regular owners using their DVC contracts as intended.

 

[dioxide45]

DVC Resale Market, which is the resale arm of DVC Rentals, always has dozens of aggressively priced stripped contracts for sale on “no negotiation” terms. As I understand it the many employees of this company all own large numbers of points. Individual owners like myself for sure rent points or reservations through them but also many of their rental reservations are made with their employee’s points that were purchased for the sole purpose of renting. Their business model seems to be to strip all points from those contracts for rental purposes and to list them for sale at a robust price but it’s not clear that they care too much whether these contracts sell. Maybe they just discount them eventually, or maybe they hang onto them until more points become available. I’m sure Disney never intended for tens of thousands of points to be held by a single business entity solely for the purpose of generating rental profit. I don’t really care if one person wants to own 2000 pts, use 300 personally each year and rent out the rest. However this is different from a company with many employees and many resources available to work towards snagging the best value reservations. I think it does impact the “regular” owners’ use of the product. So I guess I’d personally favor getting rid of the really big really obvious players but the 2000 pt relative small fry individual owner is something I can tolerate without much concern.

The enforcement of restrictions on transfers of points between use years is an example of a consequence of mega renters that is a hassle for regular owners using their DVC contracts as intended.

I looked at a couple of their public facing employees that are on social media as well as a few people from their "team" page. The few I checked didn't look to have an unreasonable number of DVC deeds in their names or even transfers to and from their names. Even the last transfer by their CEO of a DVC contract was in 2020. Perhaps they are using LLCs to obscure the owners? Though I would think multiple LLCs with lots of points would raise a lot of red flags for Disney. LLCs are also not overly cheap to in Florida as they carry an annual reporting fee. Though I suppose the LLCs don't need to be setup in Florida.

 

[heathpack]

I looked at a couple of their public facing employees that are on social media as well as a few people from their "team" page. The few I checked didn't look to have an unreasonable number of DVC deeds in their names or even transfers to and from their names. Even the last transfer by their CEO of a DVC contract was in 2020. Perhaps they are using LLCs to obscure the owners? Though I would think multiple LLCs with lots of points would raise a lot of red flags for Disney. LLCs are also not overly cheap to in Florida as they carry an annual reporting fee. Though I suppose the LLCs don't need to be setup in Florida.

I honestly have no first hand knowledge of this and have never bothered to look to the extent that you have. But the conversations on Disboards state that the one of the bid renters (I suspect DVC Resale market) owns points in multiple LLCs. If each LLC contains the max ownership of 8000 points and the rental profit is $5/point, its probably financially viable to maintain all of those LLCs. We had a LLC in California which cost us $800/year. If its similar in Florida and each LLC is bringing in $40,000/yr in profit, then the math makes sense.

I have no idea if this LLC claim is true- but it rings true because a large proportion of the stripped contracts listed on DVC Resale Market state that the sales price is firm and that below-list-price offers will not be accepted. How do they know what the seller will accept, unless they themselves are the seller? Florida law requires that they present all offers to the seller but I'm not sure they do so for these "firm" listings.

Here's an example: https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/listings/boardwalk/bwb2919/

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I looked at a couple of their public facing employees that are on social media as well as a few people from their "team" page. The few I checked didn't look to have an unreasonable number of DVC deeds in their names or even transfers to and from their names. Even the last transfer by their CEO of a DVC contract was in 2020. Perhaps they are using LLCs to obscure the owners? Though I would think multiple LLCs with lots of points would raise a lot of red flags for Disney. LLCs are also not overly cheap to in Florida as they carry an annual reporting fee. Though I suppose the LLCs don't need to be setup in Florida.

Disboards sleuths a while back figured out that it was multiple LLC’s all of which owned the maximum allowable. No idea if the LLC’s themselves are incorporated in Florida.

 

[CO skier]

I dont buy this argument of people renting to other people will open availability and book easier for users . If resort is sold out (which most are) everyone is probably vying to book at a popular time. Regardless if it is a use based or rental based booking. Now the problem might be the spec renting that DVC alludes to. There are parties that book certain popular times to rent. This restriction might help that the units last a little longer availability wise.

IMHO, I dont believe this will be the holy grail that the anti renters make it out to be. Either way, a user or rental person will book the unit especially during popular times.

That seemed to be the same thinking expressed by some in the TUG Wyndham Forum circa 2017; i.e., no changes should be made unless it eliminates all renting. There is no silver bullet or holy grail for the renting problems, so Wyndham has taken an incremental approach over the years.

The difference that you are missing is that Wyndham's changes are intended to put "more owners on vacation" (and less non-owners, as a result). This is a huge difference for owners who want to take their family on vacation using their owned Wyndham points instead of seeing their vacation advertised for rent.

 

[TUGBrian]

are a number of states with sub 100 dollar llc filing/renewal fees...

missouri is a great example, one i discovered in my search to figure out why so many timeshare exit/resale/cancellation scams set up shop there!

sub 100 filing fee, and no need to file an annual report. one would think its damn near designed for an entity that might not be on the up and up!

 

[CO skier]

Does anyone know if the Wyndham Crack down makes it easier for everyone to book rooms generally? Did crack down open the availability of units where the dollar per night generated is higher for points used than other days?

Wyndham introduced automatic VIP upgrades in 2017. This essentially eliminated the common practice of reserving premium reservations at 13 months, then cancelling at 60 days to immediately rebook using the (50% Platinum) VIP discount, or rebooking a whole collection of 3 and 4 bedroom Presidential units for half the cost of a studio or one bedroom.

The lack of the 50% discount put a number of mega-players out of the game. Result? More availability as reported anecdotally at the time

I do think Wyndham did achieve one of their stated goals with the rule changes. That is to make more inventory available. For instance. I live about an hour from Wyndham Canterbury. I've stayed there a few times for short stays in a 1BR. I did a sales presentation there and toured a 3 BR presidential reserve unit. Beautiful unit. Anyway, my point is, over the past several years I've been watching availability for the presidential units at Canterbury in general. And the 3 BR presidential units in particular. Before May 20th, I saw very few presidential units and extremely few 3 BR pres. reserve units. But now they are everywhere. From about 3 months out to 10 months out. I assume this in because owners booking to rent has gone down due to the 48 hour rule for adding a GC and The possible loss of cancel/rebook. Could be this is temporary, as the "mega-renters" figure out how to use the new system. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they can rent at higher prices to cover the higher costs.
I have noticed this same phenomenon at other resorts, though I haven't been watching other resorts as closely as Canterbury. One thing I do like better about the new website is the ability, in the calendar view, to look for specific unit types. Before it you selected 2 BR, you you would get 2 BR, 2BR deluxe, 2BR lockoff, 2 BR pres. It is nice that you can narrow the search. It would be nicer if you could choose multiple unit types.

If the changes hurt VIP and megarenters how can that not be positive for resale owners who actually want to use the points? I have noted greater availability pretty much everywhere.

A few years later, VIP benefits (including the 50% Platinum discount) were eliminated from resale points. More megarenters' businesses were no longer profitable and they exited. A fair number of 1,000,000+ points contracts were documented for sale on eBay at the time, multiple listings from some sellers. It is easy to connect the dots and conclude lots more premium reservations available for owners to book at full points costs. Profitability does not matter to them; they just want to take their family on vacation.

Wyndham introduced Owner Priority Reservation dates

The Scoop On Timeshare Owner Priority Reservations

Timeshare Owner Priority Reservations give priority to owner usage during peak periods. In order to preserve owner usage during peak times, guest reservation limits during these times are now in place.

clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com

It was established in the TUG Wyndham Forum that Wyndham is subject to the same restrictions. That kind of killed the "Wyndham is doing this, but not for the benefit of owners" conspiracy theory.

 

[jksung5295]

https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/about-us/team/ if you search the Drew and Brian guy from the list on Orange County you can see that their selling activity definitely has increased in the last month or two. The LLCs seem to be listed under their names as well.

 

[dioxide45]

are a number of states with sub 100 dollar llc filing/renewal fees...

missouri is a great example, one i discovered in my search to figure out why so many timeshare exit/resale/cancellation scams set up shop there!

sub 100 filing fee, and no need to file an annual report. one would think its damn near designed for an entity that might not be on the up and up!

Then there are some states that allow for anonymous LLCs. So no way to really tell who is behind the LLC.

 

[dioxide45]

https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/about-us/team/ if you search the Drew and Brian guy from the list on Orange County you can see that their selling activity definitely has increased in the last month or two. The LLCs seem to be listed under their names as well.

Lots of activity under that BCEC Investments LLC.

 

[bnoble]

One of the DISBoards Moderators called and got a supervisor on record (via an acknowledged recorded line) to state what DVC considers commercial:

DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

Did Yes but I had to ask to be escalated to a supervisor because as I mentioned in an earlier post, the CM tried to say the whole "family and friends" line for renting, and when I further inquired, I was sent to a supervisor. She answered all my questions, ans confirmed it was a recorded...

www.disboards.com

There are lots of clarifying posts later in that thread, but that's the important one. In short: you can rent to recover up to (but not more than) your total annual maintenance fees. So, if I own 300 points, with total annual fees of $10/pt, or $3000, then I can rent 150 of those out at $20pp, or 100 at $30, but cannot exceed $3,000 in revenue.

If Disney follows through on this even a little bit, it will completely upend the rental ecosystem.

 

[rickandcindy23]

One of the DISBoards Moderators called and got a supervisor on record (via an acknowledged recorded line) to state what DVC considers commercial:

DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

Did Yes but I had to ask to be escalated to a supervisor because as I mentioned in an earlier post, the CM tried to say the whole "family and friends" line for renting, and when I further inquired, I was sent to a supervisor. She answered all my questions, ans confirmed it was a recorded...

www.disboards.com

There are lots of clarifying posts later in that thread, but that's the important one. In short: you can rent to recover up to (but not more than) your total annual maintenance fees. So, if I own 300 points, with total annual fees of $10/pt, or $3000, then I can rent 150 of those out at $20pp, or 100 at $30, but cannot exceed $3,000 in revenue.

If Disney follows through on this even a little bit, it will completely upend the rental ecosystem.

That makes sense and it's my goal to not exceed the rental of 50% of our owned points.

 

[RX8]

Shouldn’t DVC first focus on those profiting by renting of exchanges?

 

[jwalk03]

Shouldn’t DVC first focus on those profiting by renting of exchanges?

Renting of exchanges is not prohibited by Disney- its prohibited by Interval. Its Interval that needs to crack down on this. I mean how hard would it be for them to see who is doing a lot of Disney exchanges and frequently adding guest certificates to them? Should be a very easy crack down if they wanted to.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Renting of exchanges is not prohibited by Disney- its prohibited by Interval. Its Interval that needs to crack down on this. I mean how hard would it be for them to see who is doing a lot of Disney exchanges and frequently adding guest certificates to them? Should be a very easy crack down if they wanted to.

They used to check ebay ads constantly for rentals of exchanges, including Westin and Marriott, also Disney.

An acquaintance of ours was renting exchanges on ebay, along with his Wyndham reservations, and II caught onto that really quick. He was getting 2 bedrooms in Hawaii via exchange and renting. It was stupid to attempt it. He was told he couldn't add guests anymore to any exchanges.