Fires on Maui and in Lahaina

[ScoopKona]

This article claims it is something like 98% fee simple and 2% leasehold now. While I don't know if that is quite what the reality is, I do know that the most property these days has converted.

Depends on if you're talking about "percentage of parcels for sale" or "percentage of total ownership."

It took me five years to find a fee simple property I liked. In fact, I bought the first suitable property I found. Five years, every day during my lunch break, I would scour new listings in my search area.

This article is better:

Who owns Hawaii?

Who are the largest landowners in Hawaii and how did they acquire their lands? The main landowners of Kauai, Oahu, the Big Island, Niihau, Molokai, Lanai, and Maui have a storied history.

realhawaii.co

 

[sponger76]

Depends on if you're talking about "percentage of parcels for sale" or "percentage of total ownership."

It took me five years to find a fee simple property I liked. In fact, I bought the first suitable property I found. Five years, every day during my lunch break, I would scour new listings in my search area.

This article is better:

Who owns Hawaii?

Who are the largest landowners in Hawaii and how did they acquire their lands? The main landowners of Kauai, Oahu, the Big Island, Niihau, Molokai, Lanai, and Maui have a storied history.

realhawaii.co

Property that you like may be the key word in your experience. You weren't looking for what the average person in Hawaii is looking for.

As a kid, I used to read through the real estate listings because I desperately wanted my family to be able to buy a house (I grew up in public housing). The majority of the listings in the newspapers used to say if they were fee simple because it was the exception rather than the rule. Look at those same listing pages in the Star-Advertiser now, they don't even mention fee simple anymore because it is now the default/norm. I have friends in the real estate business on O'ahu, as well as friends and family that still live there and own homes. Not a single one owns a house on leasehold land, and the realtors I know say that residential transactions involving leashold land are exceedingly rare. The numbers listed in that article are for largest landowners as single entities by acreage. But if you look at all the residential lot acreage, particularly on O'ahu, that are NOT owned by the trusts, the privately owned acreage numbers dwarf what the trusts own.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

Tragic is the loss of life.
Lahaina SHOULDN'T be put back to what it was. It wasn't a real, working, thriving town. It was a caricature of a Hawaiian seaport, before mass tourism. It is no more Hawaii than the Magic Kingdom is Florida. almost none of the commercial areas had anything at all for locals. And what little there was, drug stores and similar, clearly served tourists first, locals second.

While a little pulling of punches could be in order, I have to mostly agree with Scoop again. Speaking mostly about Front St and a block off that, caricature is a good word. Woefully under-utilized is also true, both for the locals as Scoop points out and for visitors. And that was due to the half-this / half-that / but-not-real caricature. The nostalgia of visitors shouldn't be forced on the locals. If locals want it even more "nostalgic" or "traditional", they can have that. If they want a REAL 21st Century city (Lahaina could hardly be called that) they can have that. But the sort of frumpy hollywood backlot Lahaina was kind of cute to walk through every so often but also woe-woe-woefully under-utilized. I enjoyed hanging out with locals in the environs of Lower Honoapiilani more than going to Front St.
So damn, can people who don't live there stop saying how Lahaina should look?
As someone who will never live there the only real advice I can give is Can The Art Galleries. Right there, you've improved it 20%. And the discount outlets? idk, you decide.

 

[ScoopKona]

Property that you like may be the key word in your experience. You weren't looking for what the average person in Hawaii is looking for.

As a kid, I used to read through the real estate listings because I desperately wanted my family to be able to buy a house (I grew up in public housing). The majority of the listings in the newspapers used to say if they were fee simple because it was the exception rather than the rule. Look at those same listing pages in the Star-Advertiser now, they don't even mention fee simple anymore because it is now the default/norm. I have friends in the real estate business on O'ahu, as well as friends and family that still live there and own homes. Not a single one owns a house on leasehold land, and the realtors I know say that residential transactions involving leashold land are exceedingly rare. The numbers listed in that article are for largest landowners as single entities by acreage. But if you look at all the residential lot acreage, particularly on O'ahu, that are NOT owned by the trusts, the privately owned acreage numbers dwarf what the trusts own.

Well, kinda sorta. If you want to throw away all the land which simply cannot be developed, that statement is true. But in my neck of the Pacific, it's all lease, all the time. There are entire developments around here which are owned by Kamehameha and Bishop. And most of the leases expire in 5-10 years. And I wish I had a voucher for a Kona Brewing IPA for every time I found one which checked off all the boxes -- but could only be purchased by a native with at least 51% ethnic purity. (The Hawaiian Homelands Lease -- which is still a lease.) The point is that land ownership isn't a given here. Much of Lahaina is going to be public - whether state, county, or federal. And then there are the trusts, which surely own quite a bit -- seeing how old Lahaina is.

Maui wasn't my cup of ti. So I have never done any searches there.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

I read it as this is the time those corps would try and do something like that, not that he wants to see that happen.

OK, but it is probably a terrible time for that. Never before in the statehood of Hawaii have land transactions been more scrutinized than what will happen in Lahaina during the rebuild. Am I the only one who thinks that the HI legislature (or the Maui council, whatever they call it) already has someone drafting a law putting some special status over all the land to let them disallow such transactions? "Special Improvement District" or whatever they might call it.
and nope, not a RE lawyer, don't know anything about the relationships between these trusts and the legislature, friends, enemies, frenemies? So I could be totally wrong, but other than a big corp putting up some REAL commercial property along Front St, I'd be surprised if big corps can survive the stink they'll get if they make a move on Lahaina.

 

[ScoopKona]

So damn, can people who don't live there stop saying how Lahaina should look?

From South Park, "Going Native"

"I have lived on this island for 10 years. Ten years! Every July and part of August."

 

[Ken555]

I have heard that cousins who lived in Lahaina have evacuated but have lost everything, including their home and their business. I intend to ask them what they think should be done and how Lahaina rebuild, etc. IMHO, it’s their opinion that matters, not mine, and most definitely not any of yours.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[WaikikiFirst]

Maui wasn't my cup of tea

I spent a decade going to Maui mostly to ride my bike long distances, incl up Haleakala, and do long swims in the ocean. Yeah, walking on the beach, whale-watching etc were great too. I met locals in both Kihei and Honokowai area thru cycling. Last was on Maui 1 month before lockdowns. Was in Waikiki the summer before that. When realizing I had all the extreme cycling and long ocean swimming out of my system and that I had really enjoyed Oahu the last couple of times, I realized that despite its natural beauty, it was time to transition away from Maui. Will go back someday ... but for now Oahu and BI seem like fine places to spend time.

 

[sponger76]

Well, kinda sorta. If you want to throw away all the land which simply cannot be developed, that statement is true. But in my neck of the Pacific, it's all lease, all the time. There are entire developments around here which are owned by Kamehameha and Bishop. And most of the leases expire in 5-10 years. And I wish I had a voucher for a Kona Brewing IPA for every time I found one which checked off all the boxes -- but could only be purchased by a native with at least 51% ethnic purity. (The Hawaiian Homelands Lease -- which is still a lease.) The point is that land ownership isn't a given here. Much of Lahaina is going to be public - whether state, county, or federal. And then there are the trusts, which surely own quite a bit -- seeing how old Lahaina is.

Maui wasn't my cup of ti. So I have never done any searches there.

I understand Hawaiian Homelands. My stepmom lives on a Homestead property on O'ahu. It is a totally different animal created by law to benefit native Hawaiians disadvantaged by historical wrongs perpetrated upon their people, and not at all comparable to regular real estate transactions. But none of the homes in Lahaina proper were Homestead ds anyway, though there is a Homestead development underway nearby. As for leasehold vs fee simple in Lahaina, I asked a realtor friend who lives on Maui, she said that there are a couple of neighborhoods close to Lahaina that still have leasehold single family homes, but that in Lahaina proper, the areas where single family homes burned are pretty much all fee simple. The main leasehold properties in Lahaina were condos. Aside from Homestead and, to some extent, condos, in general in Hawaii over the last 40 years or so, when land lease periods end they have been converted to fee simple.

 

[geist1223]

I was listening to a News Report (CBS or NBC) and they said that on Maui there are only about 100 Full Time Fire Persons. That the State Parks and State Forest Employees are not trained to fight Wild Land Fires

 

[SueDonJ]

The reason I stay away from disaster-impacted tourism-based areas for several months after an event is, the people who are employed by the tourism industry there are likely locals who have their own personal situations to deal with. I'd much rather see a resort shut down or run with a skeleton crew in order to give the employees a good amount of time to put their own lives back together, without them having to worry about making mine better.

The hit to the local economy can be mitigated for the relative short term through disaster aid and private donations large and small, if people's priorities are readjusted.

 

[jabberwocky]

I was listening to a News Report (CBS or NBC) and they said that on Maui there are only about 100 Full Time Fire Persons. That the State Parks and State Forest Employees are not trained to fight Wild Land Fires

I suspect many of them are also positioned to respond to the frequent vehicle fires on the Hana Highway. In July we drove out and a disabled vehicle was sitting beside the road with some old furniture in the back.

On our return trip near the end of the day we passed by and someone had likely just torched it as it was a roaring fire. About five miles later we saw the MFD headed in the opposite direction toward the fire.

It turns out this is a pretty common way for some locals to get rid of their old vehicles and avoid junk disposal fees.

 

[loosefeet]

Wildfire disasters are just so destructive and it takes a long time to recover (I live in Nor Cal). Residents are traumatized!! I can't believe people are considering their vacations this year--just cancel, it's not a vacation sort of place right now. And, if you want to support the local economy with your tourist dollars, I support this--just send them as donations to organizations that are participating in recovery. I also love the idea of collecting timeshare weeks and offering to those in need (not sure how to get this done but great idea!). If you have enjoyed spending time on this special island, give back now when there is such need.

 

[ds53cns]

Wildfire disasters are just so destructive and it takes a long time to recover (I live in Nor Cal). Residents are traumatized!! I can't believe people are considering their vacations this year--just cancel, it's not a vacation sort of place right now. And, if you want to support the local economy with your tourist dollars, I support this--just send them as donations to organizations that are participating in recovery. I also love the idea of collecting timeshare weeks and offering to those in need (not sure how to get this done but great idea!). If you have enjoyed spending time on this special island, give back now when there is such need.

Nailed it! This is a timeshare board. In my opinion the best way to support the economy as a timeshare owner is to pay your maintenance fees and not go. Keep the staff on the payroll doing only what is absolutely necessary to keep the place maintained and then let them be free to devote the time they would be servicing guests to picking up the pieces of their shattered lives.

 

[sponger76]

the State Parks and State Forest Employees are not trained to fight Wild Land Fires

Of course they're not. They're there for law enforcement, park maintenance, customer service types of stuff. They're not trained firefighters and definitely not wildfire firefighters, which is a lot of specialized training. While I realize a lot of places on the mainland have volunteer firefighting forces, in Hawaii it is generally a full time profession that is very regulated.

 

[StaceyM]

But the sort of frumpy hollywood backlot Lahaina was kind of cute to walk through every so often but also woe-woe-woefully under-utilized. I enjoyed hanging out with locals in the environs of Lower Honoapiilani more than going to Front St.
So damn, can people who don't live there stop saying how Lahaina should look?

I was on Maui less than a month ago and stayed in Kapalua. As many times as we have visited Hawaii, we have never been to a luau. We attended the Old Lahaina Luau and I'm so grateful that we had that opportunity.

However, as a tourist, I will say that Lahaina Front Street area was not good for tourists, either. It was overcrowded and overrun without sufficient infrastructure to support the number of visitors. I thought it was just a harborfront block of tourist shops, with crowds of sunburned people wandering around buying drinks in pineapples and taking their photos with abused parrots. It felt like a cruise port in the Caribbean on the day a boat docked, not like Hawaii.

I wasn't even aware there was a cultural museum we could have visited... and now it's gone.

So I hope the local politics and sentiment will eventually coalesce into some sort of design plan that improves the functionality and balance of the area, and hopefully restores some of the "Hawaii" that was crowded out by swarms of tourists. And I agree, there's no way that can be done by outsiders.

 

[letsgobobby]

I have heard that cousins who lived in Lahaina have evacuated but have lost everything, including their home and their business. I intend to ask them what they think should be done and how Lahaina rebuild, etc. IMHO, it’s their opinion that matters, not mine, and most definitely not any of yours.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

none of us are from Maui, or live there or have lived there, or have family there, or own property there, or are Hawaiian?

 

[ScoopKona]

So I hope the local politics and sentiment will eventually coalesce into some sort of design plan that improves the functionality and balance of the area, and hopefully restores some of the "Hawaii" that was crowded out by swarms of tourists. And I agree, there's no way that can be done by outsiders.

Locals -- particularly on Maui -- have been saying what they want for years now. Only recently is state government starting to take them seriously. And any time they float a plan to limit tourist numbers, tourists scream like scalded babies about it.

We'll see what happens -- because this is going to take years, not weeks. I'm not particularly optimistic. In the mad rush for "business as usual," the needs of the residents will be ignored, yet again. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Luanne]

We own a timeshare in Kihei. It's a fixed week from August 26 to September 2. I would have gladly donated that week, but it had been banked two years ago and most likely had been picked up in a trade. I have gotten several emails from the management company at Maui Hill and the most recent one was thanking owners for donating their timeshare weeks and vacation trades. So hopefully whoever picked up our week decided not to come and someone local is able to use it.

 

[letsgobobby]

And the discount outlets? idk, you decide.

kama'aina love discounts, too, probably more than the tourists.

 

[letsgobobby]

Locals -- particularly on Maui -- have been saying what they want for years now. Only recently is state government starting to take them seriously. And any time they float a plan to limit tourist numbers, tourists scream like scalded babies about it.

We'll see what happens -- because this is going to take years, not weeks. I'm not particularly optimistic. In the mad rush for "business as usual," the needs of the residents will be ignored, yet again. I hope I'm wrong.

some locals are vocal. the voiceless ones - the barely English speaking Filipina hotel staff and gardners, say - may have a different opinion about a trajectory which eliminates half their jobs.

 

[NTP66]

Lots of white knighting going on, so this thread has run its course.

 

[davidvel]

If this is true, it explains much about why they seem to not understand much about present-day Maui.

That may be true in some cases, but no one needs to go to Lahaina to have their Maui trip fulfilled. Many have been there and enjoyed it, but aren't compelled to do so every trip.

We often go, but don't always. My point is those in West Maui timeshares don't need Lahaina every trip to make their vacation whole, and despite the hate of some locals it would be much worse for many without tourist money.

 

[slip]

Locals -- particularly on Maui -- have been saying what they want for years now. Only recently is state government starting to take them seriously. And any time they float a plan to limit tourist numbers, tourists scream like scalded babies about it.

We'll see what happens -- because this is going to take years, not weeks. I'm not particularly optimistic. In the mad rush for "business as usual," the needs of the residents will be ignored, yet again. I hope I'm wrong.

The needs of some of the locals will be ignored because there is no consensus on what they will want. The numbers are somewhere in the middle just like most things.

We are a long way from the rebuilding phase so we won't find out what's going to happen for quite some time.

 

[geist1223]

Remember there are large areas of Mau'i not directly affected by the fires. There are many Condos, Apartments, and Timeshares in Maalaea, Kihei and Wailea. Lahaina and Kaanapali are not the only places to visit and stay. In fact we prefer the Kihei area. Now it is true that the thousands that lost their homes in the West are going to need places to stay.