WM two-night minimum stay - Management response

[CO skier]

If the average LOS goes up a substantial amount in 2021 when 1 night stays were not allowed this is a rough way to estimate what % of stays are 1 night stays. Which shows had badly this decision by the BOD was against the interest of many members.

... or how effective the policy was to help owners check-in at a reasonable hour.

 

[CO skier]

I wonder what is included in the housekeeping expense ?

The housekeeping expense is what it is. Owners pay for it through their maintenance fees. If the expense for one turn is more than the revenue from one night, then someone (all the other owners) have to pay extra to subsidize. Very simple accounting and math.

 

[easyrider]

The housekeeping expense is what it is. Owners pay for it through their maintenance fees. If the expense for one turn is more than the revenue from one night, then someone (all the other owners) have to pay extra to subsidize. Very simple accounting and math.

Sure but Wyndham isn't doing anything for cost. They likely set a cost for the time it takes to clean a room. The average amount of time it takes to clean a room is 20 - 30 minutes. There is no way this cost $127 a room without adding management costs and marking up room amenities like spice, coffee and soaps to the workers wage and benefit package.

Bonus time has been part of the Worldmark deal from the get go. Every owner knows this. If it cost more it cost more and the mf's make up the difference. That is the contract. It's that simple.

Bill

 

[CO skier]

Bonus time has been part of the Worldmark deal from the get go. Every owner knows this. If it cost more it cost more and the mf's make up the difference. That is the contract. It's that simple.

Bonus Time is in the agreement

"1.7 Bonus Time; the consecutive days during which a Member has use rights in a Unit under a reservation made according to the Rules in addition to such Member's Vacation Credit Use(s) and for which the specified fee is paid. The Bonus Time net fees shall accrue to the benefit of Club."

There is nothing in the agreement about a one night minimum, so that may be changed (and changed back) by the BOD if it is in the best interest of the Club.

 

[JohnPaul]

Sure but Wyndham isn't doing anything for cost. They likely set a cost for the time it takes to clean a room. The average amount of time it takes to clean a room is 20 - 30 minutes. There is no way this cost $127 a room without adding management costs and marking up room amenities like spice, coffee and soaps to the workers wage and benefit package.
Bill

I don’t ever want to stay in a unit you’ve cleaned!!!

20 - 30 minutes to make 3 beds, clean 2 bathrooms and a kitchen, dust, vacuum and tidy???

You must be amazing!!!!

 

[dioxide45]

Do away with the spices and bring back nightly stays?

 

[easyrider]

You must be amazing!!!!

I have been called worse so thank you. Its nice to be recognized occasionally.

John, on average it takes one professional housekeeper 45 - 60 minutes to do a large room and 20- 30 minutes for a studio even with Covid regs. You can probably look this up on google.

For a one night stay, as in bonus time, there isn't much to clean at a WM. Most people have started the dishwasher and have kept the room tiddy.

Bill

 

[magmue]

The housekeeping expense is what it is.

Actually, no.

I come from the world of healthcare, and am very familiar with all the creative ways organizations use to shift expenses from one cost center to another. That line item in the Treasurer's Report specifying that "each turn of a unit cost $127.75 on average" almost certainly includes salaries for multiple layers of management above Housekeeping, all the way up to the CEO's office. Plus rent for office space for those various "managers" charged to departments under them in whatever way pencils out best for the organization. The cost assignments can be quite arbitrary - and who knows enough about the budget and line items to push back?

 

[CO skier]

Actually, no.

I come from the world of healthcare, and am very familiar with all the creative ways organizations use to shift expenses from one cost center to another. That line item in the Treasurer's Report specifying that "each turn of a unit cost $127.75 on average" almost certainly includes salaries for multiple layers of management above Housekeeping, all the way up to the CEO's office.

Whatever you may know about healthcare accounting does not apply to WorldMark accounting. Wyndham collects a management fee from WorldMark revenue according to a contract and that is it. That management fee is the only WorldMark dollars that contribute to corporate salaries.

The housekeeping expenses are what they are, and that is it. If you think you know better, any owner may arrange to inspect the books of the Club (or have a specific question such as housekeeping expenses answered) by contacting the Wyndham VP for Owner Relations.

Or contact the Wyndham Treasurer directly. If the email follows the Wyndham email naming convention then the Treasurers email is: jodi.rodgers@wyn.com

Let us know what you learn.

 

[easyrider]

Whatever you may know about healthcare accounting does not apply to WorldMark accounting. Wyndham collects a management fee from WorldMark revenue according to a contract and that is it. That management fee is the only WorldMark dollars that contribute to corporate salaries.

The housekeeping expenses are what they are, and that is it. If you think you know better, any owner may arrange to inspect the books of the Club (or have a specific question such as housekeeping expenses answered) by contacting the Wyndham VP for Owner Relations.

Or contact the Wyndham Treasurer directly. If the email follows the Wyndham email naming convention then the Treasurers email is: jodi.rodgers@wyn.com

Let us know what you learn.

Wyndham doesn't collect a management fee. They bill Worldmark a management fee based on a budget. Regarding housekeeping costs this cost is certainly not just the cost of cleaning a room. Wyndham receives a profit for every thing they do. All companies do.

The idea that it isn't fair to members that don't use bonus time is ignorant of the fact that all members can use bonus time. The two night minimum for bonus time being put in place only makes sense because of covid. Now that covid is winding down, Wyndham needs to hire more housekeepers and charge Worldmark more for housekeeping if they need to.

Bill

 

[cbyrne1174]

I'm inclined to give companies a pass on this sort of thing at the moment. The labor market is very tight, and it might be hard to hire the necessary staff at a reasonable price point.

As the labor market cools down (and I expect it will) I would hope that most of these things will change. Hope springs eternal I guess.

The problem is that they aren't willing to hire staff at a reasonable price point. Minimum wage hasn't kept up with the cost of living. A reasonable minimum wage got shot down by the senate last winter.

 

[CO skier]

Wyndham doesn't collect a management fee.

Here is the definition of the Fee Wyndham collects according to the Management Agreement:

6.1 Fee. Manager shall receive a monthly compensation equal to one-twelfth (1/12th) of the lesser of (a) fifteen percent (15%) of the budgeted annual expenses and reserves of the Club, exclusive of Manager’s Fee, or (b) the projected amount remaining after the Club pays or adequately provides for its expenses and reserves, which amount shall be adjusted as each year passes …

 

[CO skier]

The problem is that they aren't willing to hire staff at a reasonable price point. Minimum wage hasn't kept up with the cost of living. A reasonable minimum wage got shot down by the senate last winter.

Are you implying that Wyndham pays housekeepers only the legislated minimum wage?

The Colorado minimum wage is $12/hour. I am staying at the WM Steamboat Springs resort. I looked online, and the starting wages for houskeeping jobs at the Wyndham resort are $15-17/hour + a retention bonus and maybe some benefits. Starting wage at the McDonald's in town is $14/hour. There are a number of businesses in downtown Steamboat Springs with jobs starting at $15/hour.

I was recently in San Diego where the signs in the business windows were for jobs starting at $20/hour.

The national labor market, not Congress is setting the "true" minimum wage.

 

[easyrider]

The national labor market, not Congress is setting the "true" minimum wage.

This is true and many resorts will be playing catch up because workers will go where hey are paid better. Last May a resort in Sun River was offering housekeepers $25 per hour plus a signing bonus. The Worldmark we used for our trip was in Bend and we spoke to a server at the resort restaurant who said she left a job that paid really well to work for at this WM resort. They only had two people running the entire restaurant in May.

Bill

 

[cbyrne1174]

Are you implying that Wyndham pays housekeepers only the legislated minimum wage?

The Colorado minimum wage is $12/hour. I am staying at the WM Steamboat Springs resort. I looked online, and the starting wages for houskeeping jobs at the Wyndham resort are $15-17/hour + a retention bonus and maybe some benefits. Starting wage at the McDonald's in town is $14/hour. There are a number of businesses in downtown Steamboat Springs with jobs starting at $15/hour.

I was recently in San Diego where the signs in the business windows were for jobs starting at $20/hour.

The national labor market, not Congress is setting the "true" minimum wage.

According to Indeed, the average housekeeping wage is $11.53 an hour in Orlando, which is what I've seen myself. Two people working 40 hours per week on that wage can't afford a 2 bedroom apartment in the surrounding area. FL is raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour for that reason. Most people voted yes to raise the minimum wage in FL to $15 an hour. I've never been to CO, so I can't speak for what it's like there, but $11.53 an hour isn't livable in Orlando so there is a labor shortage.

 

[CO skier]

According to Indeed, the average housekeeping wage is $11.53 an hour in Orlando,

And that is where I think you go wrong -- automatically thinking $11.53/hour applies to every (not just the average) housekeeping job in Orlando (and does that number include benefits?) Show us the ads where Wyndham is offering only $12/hour for a housekeeper in Orlando.

$15/hour is not a living wage most places, and $20/hour certainly is not a living wage in San Diego, but that is a different discussion and shows how far behind the curve and meaningless legislated minimum wage laws are.

 

[wjappraise]

And that is where I think you go wrong -- automatically thinking $11.53/hour applies to every (not just the average) housekeeping job in Orlando (and does that number include benefits?) Show us the ads where Wyndham is offering only $12/hour for a housekeeper in Orlando.

$15/hour is not a living wage most places, and $20/hour certainly is not a living wage in San Diego, but that is a different discussion and shows how far behind the curve and meaningless legislated minimum wage laws are.

I agree with you.

Those of us who have employees know that the pay rate is only part of total cost. My experience has been that employer taxes, unemployment (both federal and state) as well as worker’s comp costs will add another 30-40% on top of that. Then if there are benefits such as health insurance and pension, it can quickly double the actual cost for labor over the hourly rate.

It’s not cheap to have employees.

Then for housekeeping costs don’t forget to add uniforms, cleaning supplies, cleaning tools and equipment, training, supervisors, communication devices, transportation, etc. And then add in the cost of laundry services for all the sheets and towels and cleaning cloths.

So the cost for turning a room after one night is not a negligible expense.

Wes.

 

[DaveNV]

So if the cost of cleaning the room is the bottom line reason for not allowing a one night stay, why not add a small surcharge to the room charge? If someone wants to stay only one night, add a reasonable fee to the one-night charge. They could even market it as "Discounts for multiple night stays."

I started this thread. And part of my beef with what WorldMark is telling me is that I own credits that are marketed as a per-night charge, where a weekend night costs more than a weeknight. Why should that matter? By the logic presented in this thread by those much smarter than me, if the costs are so fixed, then weekends shouldn't cost any more than weekdays. All of it seems really fluid and easily manipulated. I seriously doubt they pay housekeepers more to work weekends. So why charge more credits for weekends, other than as a way to make owners pay more for staying during the nights they'd most likely want to use them?

Dave

 

[Eric B]

if the costs are so fixed, then weekends shouldn't cost any more than weekdays.

I don't think the point costs for the specific days are really set based on cost alone, but would be better thought of as prices that are set based on supply and demand. There's an undeniably higher demand for weekends than for weekdays, so the price is set higher.

why charge more credits for weekends, other than as a way to make owners pay more for staying during the nights they'd most likely want to use them?

This is exactly the point I would emphasize. If they didn't charge more for the weekends, the resorts would wind up predominantly occupied only on the weekends. The pricing, which probably predated Wyndham taking over, is part of capacity or supply and demand management.

 

[DaveNV]

This is exactly the point I would emphasize. If they didn't charge more for the weekends, the resorts would wind up predominantly occupied only on the weekends. The pricing, which probably predated Wyndham taking over, is part of capacity or supply and demand management.

But if most reservations are made at 13 months, (as the best resorts seem to book up quickly), and they have a seven-night requirement, the resorts would still be booked out. Retirees and whoever has time during the weekdays would likely take those stray weekdays that may be available. If it's really about supply and demand, people will book what is available, regardless of which day of the week it is. I think they charge more for weekends because they CAN, not because it costs any more to operate the resort on those days. With regards to housekeeping charges, the day of the week shouldn't matter.

Dave

 

[CO skier]

But if most reservations are made at 13 months,

Only 6-7% of reservations are booked 13 months ahead. More than 50% of reservations are booked 60 days or less ahead. You can see this in a chart from the 2019 4th quarter management report available online.

With regards to housekeeping charges, the day of the week shouldn't matter.

And it does not matter. Book a Fri. and Sat. stay in a 1 bedroom and the housekeeping charge is $102. Book a 1 bedroom Wed. and Thurs. stay and the housekeeping charge is $102.

I think they charge more for weekends because they CAN, not because it costs any more to operate the resort on those days.

This is true, of course. The question is, "So what?"

I think you are not looking at the big picture. Credit allocations are set when resorts are introduced into the WorldMark program. The allocations have no direct relation to how much that particular resort costs to operate. In fact, revenue from newer resorts with higher credit allocations per week (Stablewood Springs and Marble Falls in Texas, for example) are subsidizing resorts with lower credit allocations per week, but that have costs higher than the revenue generated by the allocated credits (the serious bank collapse at Gleneden is a prime example).

The credit allocations are divided into seasons with Red Season as the highest cost. White and Blue seasons have lower credit allocations to encourage off-season use. Weekly credit allocations are further divided with weekends having almost twice the cost of mid-week nights. This is to encourage mid-week use, as mentioned in previous posts. (It works with me as I avoid Friday and Saturday nights as much as possible.)

Inventory Specials are offered, mostly for mid-week nights, as a cash option to further encourage mid-week usage.

All this is just the way WorldMark was created and is run.

 

[bbodb1]

I may have missed this point in the thread, but why doesn't WorldMark view unused nights as a lost opportunity to interact with a customer?
It sounds as if WorldMark is satisfied to have this increasing number of short duration vacancies....that doesn't make sense either...

 

[Eric B]

In HGVC, Friday-Sunday nights cost twice as much in points as Monday-Thursday nights.
In Vistana, Thursday and Sunday nights cost ~50% more than Monday-Wednesday and Friday and Saturday are about double.
In Club Wyndham, it varies a bit more, but Friday and Saturday are between 50% more and double the point cost of Sunday through Thursday.
I don't have any experience with Marriott, Hyatt, or HIVC, but would not be surprised if weekends cost more there than weekdays. It seems as though that's an industry standard. The odd thing is the larger variability in the ratios in Club Wyndham and WorldMark, although the others do have some oddities in them as well.

 

[CO skier]

It sounds as if WorldMark is satisfied to have this increasing number of short duration vacancies....

Nights that expire unused are entirely common in WorldMark. What about when an entire week expires unused? That was seven one-night stays that could have been booked (prior to the change). Really no different than 7 scattered, stand alone nights in terms of vacancies.

Take a look at the 4-month booking calender for 2 bedroom units at WM Rancho Vistoso. 5+ units will expire unoccupied every day for the next months. The comparatively few, scattered single nights are nothing by comparison.

 

[bbodb1]

Nights that expire unused are entirely common in WorldMark. What about when an entire week expires unused? That was seven one-night stays that could have been booked (prior to the change). Really no different than 7 scattered, stand alone nights in terms of vacancies.

Take a look at the 4-month booking calender for 2 bedroom units at WM Rancho Vistoso. 5+ units will expire unoccupied every day for the next months. The comparatively few, scattered single nights are nothing by comparison.

Neither is good to be sure. If I ran a business, I would want my sales at the max capacity I can handle and in WorldMark's case, every unused night means one less customer to try and sell them something. This is not utilizing WorldMark's assets to their fullest potential - which I would think would be a goal of management.