[2016] Account review email [Accts. suspended]

[ronparise]

If Wyndham does somehow figure out a way stop the cancel/rebook, I'd probably want to sell all my contracts (I have a Platinum account with about 10,000,000 points). Since i'm sure a lot of people would want do to the same, I think its quite possible that there would be no market at all for the points. So my question is, if i just stop paying maintenance fees, can Wyndham come after my other assets or future earnings to cover my unpaid fees? Could this affect my credit? Or can I just give them back the keys and walk away?

I read the transcripts of wyndhams quarterly earnings calls with the brokerage community. Steve Holmes, CEO, seems vey proud of how low they are able to keep the cost of goods sold. They have several innovative repurchase programs whereby they get back inventory at a very low cost. And as Steve put it the cool thing about timeshares is that they dont depreciate

So I wouldn't worry about Wyndham becoming overloaded with inventory. If the salesforce can't keep up they can always rent the stuff

Prices on ebay have been between zero and about $15/1000 points since I've been involved (6 years). But almost everything gets sold. Ovation hasn't changed that. And even if all of us mega owners were to dump their ownerships back to Wyndham i don't think it would move secondary market prices out of that range

 

[wjappraise]

When my account was "thawed" I was told to continue to call the 1-877 number for such things as ARP and to change an owner name on a reservation to another co-owner (my wife, or adult children). I asked specifically via email if this could be done on the regular VIP phone line. The answer came back that I needed to call the 1-877 number and if I got voice mail to let them know when I would be available for a call back to get this completed. Well, long story short, it is one week later and I am still waiting for a call back. Wondering if anyone else has had success waiting for this, or if you have had success by merely calling the normal Wyndham line and getting a VC to assist.

Thanks for your help.

Has anyone else had this same dilemma? Being told to call the 877- number and not getting any response? If so, what do you do? Has it worked to just call the regular VIP line? Thanks for sharing. I am stuck . . . and it is impacting my mood.

 

[John or Jane Doe]

Has anyone else had this same dilemma? Being told to call the 877- number and not getting any response? If so, what do you do? Has it worked to just call the regular VIP line? Thanks for sharing. I am stuck . . . and it is impacting my mood.

When I was frozen (versus now I am thawed) I was able to call the VIP line. They would cancel reservations for me (or add GC's). I think I called the 877 line once - held forever - and found the regular VIP line was just as helpful (and had less hold time).

And as a thawed owner I am using the VIP line (no need to call the 877).

 

[wjappraise]

When I was frozen (versus now I am thawed) I was able to call the VIP line. They would cancel reservations for me (or add GC's). I think I called the 877 line once - held forever - and found the regular VIP line was just as helpful (and had less hold time).

And as a thawed owner I am using the VIP line (no need to call the 877).

Thanks for the heads-up. I just did the same, called the VIP line and got some ARP done!! The acctinfo@wyn.com had absolutely stated that I would not be able to do this. . . SILOS!!

As a follow-up question: Has anyone who was suspened/frozen been entirely cleared or reconciled at this point? Or is everyone in my boat, with some rights, but still a cloud hanging over my membership/usage?

Thanks.

 

[Richelle]

There are 900 replies on 46 pages in this discussion so far, and I'm only about half way through. From what I have gathered so far, the issue could be the following:

1. Accounting issue in Wyndham. Maybe duplicate reservations that add up to more points then the member can have when you factor in points from the credit pool. Or some other bug in their system.
2. Stripped contracts (did not know this was possible.)
3. Someone has found a way to exploit a flaw in Wyndham point tracking system and the rest of the VIPs with large contracts are paying for it.
4. Wyndham is trying to make things more difficult for mega renters that they think are cheating the system. In other words, there could be nothing wrong. It's just a power play to show they can make things difficult on people who try to use the Wyndham timeshare program for profit.
5. Some other factor that I have not read about yet, because I have not gotten through all the replies.

I know there is a lot of complaints about VIPs using the cancel and rebooking method for their reservations to get the discount. The sales guys try to pitch that idea to me as well, when telling me about the benefits of becoming a VIP. I know some will book multiple rooms in case they lose one durning the cancel rebook process, which ties up inventory. One could argue that when they release the unneeded units, it opens up rooms for people to book that wouldn't normally be able to, because they couldn't book 13 months out. It could give them a shot at getting that Christmas week at bonnet. Some could also say that Wyndham is losing money because of mega renters. Their inventory is competing with the inventory Wyndham advertises on places like hotels.com, which charges over $400 a night for a one bedroom in Bonnet over Christmas week. You can get the same rental on eBay for a lot cheaper. However, I would disagree with that argument. If a mega renter puts heads in beds, they are essentially handing Wyndham a lead on a silver platter. Wyndham didn't pay to advertise that room. They did not have to do anything to put someone in that room, that they can pitch a sales presentation to. They got free advertising, and a free lead, and the mega renters are paying MF fees to boot. If the sales guy closes the deal, that also adds to Wyndham bottom line. Mega renting does not cause Wyndham to lose money,. That cheap room on eBay got someone there, that wasn't going to pay $2,800 a week for that one bedroom. Customer acquisition is not cheap. When someone is doing it for you, and paying you money to be able to do it (MF fees, GC, etc), it benefits the bottom line.

With that said, if Wyndham really did have a problem with the mega renters tying up inventory, there are ways to fix that, and still give VIP owners the ability to make a profit. If they gave VIP's that discount from the first booking (13 months out), they would not need to book more then one room. You also wouldn't have the issue of cancel and rebooking adding points that they should not have because the software is flawed. I personally think that if you spent $200k plus dollars to become a VIP, you deserve that discount. They should have the ability to make some of their money back. Lord knows, we cannot do that on the resale market. If they gave me that 50% on every reservation, no matter how far out, I'd pay to become platinum. I MIGHT even pay a little more for it. Keyword is ""might". In addition to that change, I would also like it, if they give regular owners a discount, if they make a new reservation 30-60 days out, BUT they cannot use the cancel or rebook option. The new reservation has to be new, or for a different room type (a 2 bedroom can be reduced to a 1 bedroom for the discount, but you cannot rebook that two bedroom for the discount). I do know it's possible that if someone only wants a one bedroom, that they can book a 2 bedroom, and then cancel and book the one bedroom which would tie up two bedroom inventory. However, if they go that route, they better hope that there are one bedrooms available, or they are stuck with paying full price for more then what they need. I know that my suggestions are not likely anything they would go for, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Just my two Canadian pennies.


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[wjappraise]

There are 900 replies on 46 pages in this discussion so far, and I'm only about half way through. From what I have gathered so far, the issue could be the following:

1. Accounting issue in Wyndham. Maybe duplicate reservations that add up to more points then the member can have when you factor in points from the credit pool. Or some other bug in their system.
2. Stripped contracts (did not know this was possible.)
3. Someone has found a way to exploit a flaw in Wyndham point tracking system and the rest of the VIPs with large contracts are paying for it.
4. Wyndham is trying to make things more difficult for mega renters that they think are cheating the system. In other words, there could be nothing wrong. It's just a power play to show they can make things difficult on people who try to use the Wyndham timeshare program for profit.
5. Some other factor that I have not read about yet, because I have not gotten through all the replies.

I know there is a lot of complaints about VIPs using the cancel and rebooking method for their reservations to get the discount. The sales guys try to pitch that idea to me as well, when telling me about the benefits of becoming a VIP. I know some will book multiple rooms in case they lose one durning the cancel rebook process, which ties up inventory. One could argue that when they release the unneeded units, it opens up rooms for people to book that wouldn't normally be able to, because they couldn't book 13 months out. It could give them a shot at getting that Christmas week at bonnet. Some could also say that Wyndham is losing money because of mega renters. Their inventory is competing with the inventory Wyndham advertises on places like hotels.com, which charges over $400 a night for a one bedroom in Bonnet over Christmas week. You can get the same rental on eBay for a lot cheaper. However, I would disagree with that argument. If a mega renter puts heads in beds, they are essentially handing Wyndham a lead on a silver platter. Wyndham didn't pay to advertise that room. They did not have to do anything to put someone in that room, that they can pitch a sales presentation to. They got free advertising, and a free lead, and the mega renters are paying MF fees to boot. If the sales guy closes the deal, that also adds to Wyndham bottom line. Mega renting does not cause Wyndham to lose money,. That cheap room on eBay got someone there, that wasn't going to pay $2,800 a week for that one bedroom. Customer acquisition is not cheap. When someone is doing it for you, and paying you money to be able to do it (MF fees, GC, etc), it benefits the bottom line.

With that said, if Wyndham really did have a problem with the mega renters tying up inventory, there are ways to fix that, and still give VIP owners the ability to make a profit. If they gave VIP's that discount from the first booking (13 months out), they would not need to book more then one room.

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You have some great takes on the situation at hand. I don't think that Wyndham has targeted mega-renters here. I am impacted and by no stretch am I a mega-renter. I and my extended family USE the ownership with about 90% of my reservations being for my extended family and personal friends. We have a church group that goes down to Orlando every year during Thanksgiving time and that one event uses half of my annual points. About 10% of my reservations are ones I rent out using RedWeek primarily; I only use TUG when I have a reservation cancelled and will forfeit the points if someone does not use it.

This whole episode has worn me, and from the sound of it, it has worn down other great contributors to this forum. I foresee many long time owners who have been impacted divesting themselves of this ownership that has become a burden, rather than a joy.

I have owned since the days of Fairfield, when the slogan was "Sharing" times and memories. I was especially motivated by the free unlimited guest reservations to move (purchase) my ownership up to VIP. I was further motivated by the Presidential Reserve units at Bonnet Creek to move (purchase) my ownership up to Presidential Reserve Platinum. This would allow me to reserve units at Bonnet Creek 14 months in advance of my one big trip each Thanksgiving. My account was suspended this year at the 14 month mark, meaning I could not reserve the larger rooms I need for our group. And we all know what happened to the "sharing" aspect of Wyndham's motto when they took over for Fairfield, and soon did away with the free guest reservations. So, my major reasons for purchasing all the way up to my current level are now stripped away, with no compensation, no recourse. So, I am not a prime candidate for their "owner updates" that would have a group setting, I can tell you that. Which is interesting, because I always felt some of the posters here who reveled in their resale purchases, or wearing their TUG shirts to an owner update were being "over the top," and something I would never want to do. Now, I understand. I am bitter.

Truthmonkey - Does Wyndham know how I (and other impacted owners) feel about them?

Wes

 

[Richelle]

The last time we did an owner update, they brought us to a "room" which actually had cubicle panels for the walls. I found it odd that they separated us from the rest of the folks talking at the small tables out in the open. I had not done any to deserve any such treatment, and I only have 182k points. I am a prime candidate for silver I think, because I have had my contract for about 8 years now. That's the only thing I can think of. I have considered it, but after listening to people talk about VIP, it seems like anything below platinum would be a waste of money for someone looking to recoup some or all of their costs. Anyway, that incident of being separated from the herd, and this debacle, have inspired me. I think the next time I am there with my mom or husband, I might call over to one of them when they are getting coffee, "hey, didn't you read something about all those VIP accounts getting suspended? What was the reason again?". I will have them respond "They made too many reservations and the Wyndham system couldn't keep track of their points". I'm sure the sales guy will play it down as a One time thing but it will at least put the idea in the other buyers head. Will not work for all, but even if it keeps just one sucker from buying for the wrong reason, it's worth getting banned from future update meetings.


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[OutSkiing]

I'm sure the sales guy will play it down as a One time thing but it will at least put the idea in the other buyers head.
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We were at an owners update at Star Island on 9/21 when this freeze was just unfolding. It was just us and one other couple for the slide show portion so everyone was talking freely. When I brought up the account freeze, the sales manager knew exactly what I was referring to but said 'oh you mean the trouble those mega renters are in.' I responded loud and clearly that it was not just mega renters who are affected. He and again the on-on-one rep claimed that they heard me that I was concerned for the well being of all VIP owners.

So, it surprises me that some sales offices claim they did not know this was going on as was mentioned in another post. Star Island seems like an out of the way, low traffic office and even they knew something was going on.

Bob

 

[Richelle]

They probably knew but were not told how to address it. Easier to play dumb.


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[John or Jane Doe]

I attended an Owner's Update while my account was frozen. It was the first in several years as my account is coded to not invite me to updates. I was surprised I was allowed to attend. Being frozen I jumped on the opportunity.

Either I am a total sucker/gullible/etc or the sales person had no idea what was going on regarding frozen accounts. That was in September - maybe things have changed.

He himself was VIP gold. He was proud of the fact they used to sell split use year and promoted rolling points. He had rolled points back in the day (I told him he better not tell anyone). He still tried to sell me more points (to trade what we had for lower maintenance fees).

2 or 3 days later my account was thawed. I really don't think he had any idea what was going on regarding the suspended accounts. Or I'm a super sucker and he was trying to see what I knew. But I don't think so.

 

[vacationhopeful]

...
He himself was VIP gold. He was proud of the fact they used to sell split use year and promoted rolling points. He had rolled points back in the day (I told him he better not tell anyone). He still tried to sell me more points (to trade what we had for lower maintenance fees).
....

As his lips were moving ... I would truly be SURPRISED he own even a single Wyndham point or deed.

He learned enough lingo/terms ... to effectively sell and get a commission.

The other popular LIE is, the salesperson manages some Platinum VIP accounts for owners where they turned enough rentals into free usage for the owner.... of course, they aren't allowed to do this but they have to HELP the their owners use and pay for the MFs for points because (illness, job loss, death, not yet retired).

 

[wjappraise]

Between 80 and 100 accounts are suspended, less than 5% of platinum accounts.

Thank you for not asking me for any more specifics. I couldn't ethically tell you more than I have told you. Many Wyndham employees are embarrassed by this, and I personally hope they resolve it soon and to your satisfaction.

Good morning, Truthmonkey.

Wondering if you could update us if ANY of the 100 impacted owners have been completely resolved at this point? Thank you for your input. It has been very helpful for those of us in limbo with this action.

 

[wjappraise]

Good morning, Truthmonkey.

Wondering if you could update us if ANY of the 100 impacted owners have been completely resolved at this point? Thank you for your input. It has been very helpful for those of us in limbo with this action.

Good afternoon, with the migrating of data, I thought this may have been lost. Any possibility of a response? Thanks,.

 

[Sloane S]

Good afternoon, with the migrating of data, I thought this may have been lost. Any possibility of a response? Thanks,.

Assuming that truthmonkey was a Wyndham employee and providing real info, from their profile it doesn't look like they've been back on the board since October 14th. You may want to email/pm them.

 

[jumoe]

So.... 12 weeks later. I was "thawed" a few weeks ago.
I have not been contacted to receive the results of their point audit. I have not been contacted at all since the point I was unfrozen.
I have not been officially totally "released".
Has anyone had any progress? Any contact?

 

[John or Jane Doe]

So.... 12 weeks later. I was "thawed" a few weeks ago.
I have not been contacted to receive the results of their point audit. I have not been contacted at all since the point I was unfrozen.
I have not been officially totally "released".
Has anyone had any progress? Any contact?

Same here. Thawed but they are not done yet. Last talk I had had undertones that points may still be adjusted (kind of passive-agressive-no good info). Can't transfer any contracts. I had contact - a returned call with promised follow up to my questions in 2 days (that was over week ago).

 

[gottashiner]

I was finally able to pool points 1 week ago for points that were eligible to be pooled 9/30/16, but only to the level of my annual allocation. So even though previously pooled points were "regular points" after they had been booked and cancelled, they aren't considered regular if the amount of points are more than the yearly number of points. I had to call again Wed (on hold for another 44minutes) because not all points showed as pooled- this agent told If the agent had told me that back in September, I would have used the excess points for airfare or anything else available. It makes sense but it never occured to me since all points were "regular". I easily have more than 7 hours being on hold waiting on Owner Care. What a frustrating encounter.
This whole experience has changed my feelings toward Wyndham and how they treat owners. I totally agree with am1-

as am1 states above "I am not a customer but an owner. I expect to be treated fairly and legally. I do not see that happening. In the past I have been someone that has suggested to others that a VIP retail purchase can work now I would not suggest even purchasing resale. No one has any idea what is next but it will not be good for any owner resale, retail, vip, mega renter or any other group."

 

[ronparise]

as am1 states above "I am not a customer but an owner. I expect to be treated fairly and legally. I do not see that happening."

I think you guys are making a mistake assuming that "Wyndham" is doing this to us. Or that it's not fair or legal. It's not Wyndham, it's the club. Or better stated, it's Wyndham working in their capacity as Club manager for all the owners

Nothing that they are doing to me or you or any of us is going to improve wyndhams bottom line. Everything that they are doing is being done for and in the name of the other owners.

The fact is Wyndham feels that we have been taking advantage of the club and the rest of the membership; using the club for our personal gain

Read the disclosures in the back of the owner's manual. Use of the club for commercial purposes is prohibited. And using loopholes to gain an unfair advantage over other owners is also prohibited. These are club rules, designed for the benefit of all members that are being administered by the manager for the membership not for themselves

Given that these rules are going to be enforced; I know I would rather Wyndham be the enforcer than the other owners themselves. Think enforcement power in the hands of co skier rather than Wyndham. He would have me hung up by my genitals. Wyndham just suspended me and we are working out our differences

I can't say some Wyndham executives arent taking this personally. They are pissed and they are treating some of us differently than others. (And I think I pissed them off more than others) but once their lawyers got involved (and placed themselves between me and the guys I pissed off) I can say I've been treated nothing but fairly and legally.

Just my opinion

 

[wjappraise]

I'm in the same boat. Thawed but still under restrictions. Wow.

 

[am1]

I'm in the same boat. Thawed but still under restrictions. Wow.

My 3 accounts are still frozen. I would not agree to their terms until my other issues from last winter were addressed. Wyndham caused me 100's of thousands of dollars in damages due to no fault of my own. As well as an employee at the resort slandered me and the guest wrote about it on the largest travel forum there is. I have requested in writing for Wyndham to contact the forum to have that removed but have not heard back and it is still there.

Soon I want to exercise my 13 arp window (which is a deeded right). I sent Wyndham an e-mail and voicemail concerning that. These requests in the past have gone unanswered. I do not expect them to honor my deeded rights but it will be included in my damages when everything is eventually resolved.

 

[wjappraise]

So, are you still making maintenance fee payments?

 

[am1]

So, are you still making maintenance fee payments?

I am yes. I am sure if the account goes into default I would lose my reservations.

 

[BellaWyn]

I think you guys are making a mistake assuming that "Wyndham" is doing this to us. Or that it's not fair or legal. It's not Wyndham, it's the club. Or better stated, it's Wyndham working in their capacity as Club manager for all the owners .

There was a time in the not too distant past that it used to be a "vacation ownership" and not a "club." The "Club" part was introduced when WYN began their full force push to bring as many deeded "ownerships" into CLUB Wyndham Access. Then slow and subtle re-branding started to happen. We are now all technically re-branded as "Club-XX" (something) regardless of how we all got involved with Wyndham.

During that same period of time WYN was in a full-on battle with the membership of "Worldmark The Club" in an attempt to merge the two types of member groups. There still remains a difference however between "deeded owner" rights vs "member" club rights.

Regardless of how we are now all titled, Wyndham still has the responsibility to correctly and accurately MANAGE the ownership / membership data, which includes an accurate accounting of points useage. It's part of what we all pay for with out program and maintenance fees and part of the "good faith" trust we all put into WYN at the time we purchased the product, regardless of type.

Nothing that they are doing to me or you or any of us is going to improve Wyndham's bottom line. Everything that they are doing is being done for and in the name of the other owners.

That statement is slightly counter to one of your previous statements:

It is my belief that what they really don’t like is that some folks have figured out how to profit from renting Wyndham timeshares; profit that they consider to be rightfully theirs.

... so are you reversing yourself?

The fact is Wyndham feels that we have been taking advantage of the club and the rest of the membership; using the club for our personal gain.

Read the disclosures in the back of the owner's manual. Use of the club for commercial purposes is prohibited. And using loopholes to gain an unfair advantage over other owners is also prohibited. These are club rules, designed for the benefit of all members that are being administered by the manager for the membership not for themselves.

It's not just mega-renters that have had their accounts suspended, as evidenced by posters in this forum thread. Some are just high-point owners that are using their accounts for themselves, family and friends as outlined by Wyndham's ownership / club guidelines. How is it "fair" (cannot speak to the legality of it) that those suspended owners, who are still paying their maintenance fees timely, continue to have either limited or no access to the use of their accounts?

I can't say some Wyndham executives aren’t taking this personally. They are pissed and they are treating some of us differently than others.

What specifically is it about this situation that a Wyndham Executive would have reason to take "personally" or to be pissed off about other than loss of profits?

The whole posturing of "Wyndham is not the bad guy" "re-think what is reasonable" from one who has previously stated they are frustrated, pissed off and unhappy with this suspended account situation seems a bit overly-rational. How does this help the membership as a whole? We are clearly ALL at risk (VIP or not VIP, Club member or Deeded Owner) knowing that Wyndham can strip any one of us from access to our paid-in-full ownership accounts while we continue to make on-going timely maintenance fee payments AND they can keep us suspended for an indefinite period of time, at their whim with minimal explanation, followup or support.

Perhaps because you are now in the process of employing your stated exit strategy it is a little easier to disengage from the situation. However, still am unclear how you can posture that Wyndham is doing any of this solely for the the benefit of all owners because "all owners" are at risk when WYN employs "THE CLUB"

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

Hi Ron & BellaWyn ,
and everyone else ,
I (as a non Wyndham owner/ TUG reader ) appreciate how much thought you are putting into continuing to update this thread .

I am sure all readers - present and future - are helped by these and prior posts .

This thread is now into month 4 - and is closing in on 80,000 views - and 1000 postings / replys
since Bobdaz started it Aug 24 2016 .

Quite a read -

.

 

[ronparise]

There was a time in the not too distant past that it used to be a "vacation ownership" and not a "club." The "Club" part was introduced when WYN began their full force push to bring as many deeded "ownerships" into CLUB Wyndham Access. Then slow and subtle re-branding started to happen. We are now all technically re-branded as "Club-XX" (something) regardless of how we all got involved with Wyndham.

During that same period of time WYN was in a full-on battle with the membership of "Worldmark The Club" in an attempt to merge the two types of member groups. There still remains a difference however between "deeded owner" rights vs "member" club rights.

Regardless of how we are now all titled, Wyndham still has the responsibility to correctly and accurately MANAGE the ownership / membership data, which includes an accurate accounting of points useage. It's part of what we all pay for with out program and maintenance fees and part of the "good faith" trust we all put into WYN at the time we purchased the product, regardless of type.



That statement is slightly counter to one of your previous statements:

... so are you reversing yourself?



It's not just mega-renters that have had their accounts suspended, as evidenced by posters in this forum thread. Some are just high-point owners that are using their accounts for themselves, family and friends as outlined by Wyndham's ownership / club guidelines. How is it "fair" (cannot speak to the legality of it) that those suspended owners, who are still paying their maintenance fees timely, continue to have either limited or no access to the use of their accounts?


What specifically is it about this situation that a Wyndham Executive would have reason to take "personally" or to be pissed off about other than loss of profits?

The whole posturing of "Wyndham is not the bad guy" "re-think what is reasonable" from one who has previously stated they are frustrated, pissed off and unhappy with this suspended account situation seems a bit overly-rational. How does this help the membership as a whole? We are clearly ALL at risk (VIP or not VIP, Club member or Deeded Owner) knowing that Wyndham can strip any one of us from access to our paid-in-full ownership accounts while we continue to make on-going timely maintenance fee payments AND they can keep us suspended for an indefinite period of time, at their whim with minimal explanation, followup or support.

Perhaps because you are now in the process of employing your stated exit strategy it is a little easier to disengage from the situation. However, still am unclear how you can posture that Wyndham is doing any of this solely for the the benefit of all owners because "all owners" are at risk when WYN employs "THE CLUB"

Just my opinion, of course.

Just my opinion too..

But to your points:

1) Slightly counter, but not entirely contradictory ....

Wyndham is in the rental business, and so am I. Each rental customer of mine I think they see as rightfully theirs. I think it bothers them that so many of us are able to make a little money with their product.
The suspension email we received started with this line.."Acting in our capacity as manager for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus..." so clearly they are representing the club in this whole suspension thing. I think making life difficult for the mega renters is a bonus for Wyndham.. and not the prime motivation for the suspensions.

2) as near as I can tell everyone that got suspended had more points and points in reservations than could be justified by what they own. If Wyndham was to just ignore these "extra" points that wouldnt be fair to the ownership base. I think the time they are taking to finish the audits and take back their points is inexcusable, but I dont think its unfair

3) Its not the situation that has them upset. Im not going to tell you what I think has upset the guys and gals in the executive suite. Pissed off may be too strong, but Im convinced that Ive given some of them some heartburn

4) I dont believe all owners are at risk and I dont think whats happened to some of us was done on a whim

as I sad.. Just my opinion (based on my experience)