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Resort(s) Bailout or Resorts LLC

It is the fiduciary responsibility of the HOA board to ensure that there is a market for their timeshare units. If there isn't one, they should recommend termination of the timeshare plan. It's really as simple as that. You don't have any argument that trumps this notion. The HOA board is not serving its members well if the timeshare units are worthless and there is another higher and better use of the property on the open market.

Doesn't this apply to about 80% of the timeshares in existence? Are you really proposing that 80% of the timeshares be terminated? How many resorts could get the votes they needed to do that? I think this proposal is completely unrealistic to implement.
 
You think an announcement is a good way to do this? I don't think so, but it depends on the resort. Cypress Pointe, that would be fine because there is a resale value to those units, so there is hope of selling them. They also have a management company, VRI, who can sell units, if they are so inclined. However, most older resorts are managed by local companies who cannot sell. They have no means to do it. They just hope the owners can get someone to take over the week, like a relative or a friend. It works much of the time.

The PCC's are actually damaging to resorts. Not only do they say the resorts are going to have SA's and increasing fees every year, but they also say it's impossible to get a trade (not true), and your heirs will curse you in your grave for leaving them the burden (also not necessarily true).

They have hurt timeshare more than they have helped. I cannot even think of any way they have helped, except I have gotten some bargain weeks.

Geez, as though timeshare needed anymore counts against it. It's sold with high pressure to start, and people almost always regret their purchases after the rescission period. Then the PCC's finish them off with their bad stories. It's not healthy for timeshare to have these companies, or the upfront-fee companies.

PCCs serve the role of assisting owners out of their life sentence of perpetual maintenance fees. Many do it very badly, unethically and sometimes fraudulently. But, at the end of the day, that is valuable to many owners who are not granted by statute a way to deedback their timeshare ownerships back to the HOA.

At this time, I believe there are thousands of timeshare resorts that need a way to self terminate. Right now, there is not an easy way to terminate a timeshare plan and the market is suffering because of it. I will go so far as to say that the single issue of there not being a way to more easily terminate a timeshare plan hurts the timeshare industry far more than the sum total of everything any PCC did in the last 10 years.

Dead timeshares need to be allowed to die. The healthy timeshares are hurting because of all the zombie timeshares out there are dragging the good ones down to zero.
 
Good Luck With That.

It is the fiduciary responsibility of the HOA board to ensure that there is a market for their timeshare units.
Only if that responsibility is spelled out explicitly in the original condominium documents or stated expressly in state timeshare law. Otherwise, while it's arguably a supportable policy, it's still just a matter of elective policy, not fiduciary responsibility.
The HOA board is not serving its members well if the timeshare units are worthless and there is another higher and better use of the property on the open market.
A higher & better use of the property is highly speculative -- a big "if" to say the least.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
Doesn't this apply to about 80% of the timeshares in existence? Are you really proposing that 80% of the timeshares be terminated? How many resorts could get the votes they needed to do that? I think this proposal is completely unrealistic to implement.

The law of supply and demand dictates that when the market tanks, supply needs to die with it or price drops dramatically. Since it is virtually impossible to get rid of a timeshare, ALL timeshare resorts suffer and the good ones are brought down by the bad ones. If 20% of the timeshare plans were allowed to die, the market would improve dramatically.
 
Only if that responsibility is spelled out explicitly in the original condominium documents or stated expressly in state timeshare law. Otherwise, while it's arguably a supportable policy, it's still just a matter of elective policy, not fiduciary responsibility.A higher & better use of the property is highly speculative -- a big "if" to say the least.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

The land on most timeshare resorts are worth more than Zero. Even in this bad market.
 
Only if that responsibility is spelled out explicitly in the original condominium documents or stated expressly in state timeshare law. Otherwise, while it's arguably a supportable policy, it's still just a matter of elective policy, not fiduciary responsibility.A higher & better use of the property is highly speculative -- a big "if" to say the least.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

I don't need luck. Either the industry gets a clue or it will suffer more of what it is experiencing now. The PCCs are just a small symptom of a larger problem that there is no way for timeshare plans to die.

All HOAs must manage a budget. If that budget explodes and owners get hit with the bills, they will always have fiduciary responsibilities. I will go so far as to say that for every resort, there is a budget number where the owners will vote to terminate the plan. The only question is how long it takes to get there to that number.
 
Still A Stretch.

The land on most timeshare resorts are worth more than Zero.
More than zero does not automatically translate to higher & better use of the property.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
You Typed A Mouthful.

I will go so far as to say that for every resort, there is a budget number where the owners will vote to terminate the plan. The only question is how long it takes to get there to that number.
You are correct, sir.

That's why pinching pennies is not enough. The HOA must keep resort quality up & make sure every dollar received returns value to the regular walking-around owners.

Not only that, the HOA must keep the ownership & billing records accurate & up to date & take quick, aggressive action against deadbeats. Otherwise, the responsible bill-paying owners will see their fees go up because of other people's unpaid bills -- a sure recipe for getting to that budget number that triggers a death spiral.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
The problem with termination of a timeshare is that under state law or the CC&R's you usually need an insanely high percentage of owners to vote for a termination. The board voting isn't enough. But like any corporate vote, getting a super majority or a unanimous vote where ownership is widely dispersed it is nearly impossible unless you have a well funded coordinated effort. So unless a developer is going to step up to the plate and fund an expensive proxy effort, it's just about impossible to get the necessary vote to terminate a timeshare.

For most timeshares, the easiest way to terminate is through a bankruptcy proceeding.
 
My premise is simple. If the resort is worthless, then the timeshare plan should be terminated. If the owners refuse to terminate the timeshare plan, then they deserve the increased maintenance fees and reserves.

A timeshare ownership should not be a life sentence. If the HOAs won't take action, then PCCs are the right business model to support owners who want out.

It is the fiduciary responsibility of the HOA board to ensure that there is a market for their timeshare units. If there isn't one, they should recommend termination of the timeshare plan. It's really as simple as that. You don't have any argument that trumps this notion. The HOA board is not serving its members well if the timeshare units are worthless and there is another higher and better use of the property on the open market.

So lets talk a hypothetical yet totally realistic possibility.

A purpose built timeshare, maybe 200 units, or about 9,000 individual owners. Fees were relatively low when new but over time, as is often the case, it was discovered that the developer had been undercharging for reserves and failing to keep up maintenance so the owners got new management and fees necessarily rose to reflect true costs. Today they are about 2.3-2.5 times the original amount but still on the low side of average for ranked resorts in the area.

Now the owners of those early years 20 years ago are aging, families grown and "many" say fee's we can't afford anymore. But the resort, which does not have on site resales they can control - the developer, as often the case, holds all sales rights even after all these years - says "Pay or we will collect by any means necessary" and "No deed backs as we have no outlet for them either".

By your scenario this resort should open the flood gates, say anyone wanting out can deed the time back and the other owners will pay. To what "good" result? That the 94%+ that ARE paying now suddenly see fees skyrocket to cover those who decide it's too much because they have tired of the place? So more decide they too can't afford it & they want out until the fees become so high it is self fulfilling that the resort - one that could easily last 50+ years or more, has been well maintained and upgraded - is forced to close it's doors or be turned over to the developer (who, as again is very often the case holds a big chunk of time they have bought back or obtained for points membership they operate)?

How does that benefit the 90%+ that WANT the resort to survive but don't want to be forced to pay for others wanting an easy way out? Not every resort has the same situation. Some are better off - others really are mismanaged, poorly located, outdated and perhaps do deserve to be closed. But that is a decision the majority of owners should make based on the conditions NOT forced on them by decree that they accept weeks they never sold (the developer did) and pay for those costs without every effort required to make those owners pay or sell legally.

Like so many other ideas here it isn't even a possibility as the laws that let condos and timeshares be created don't allow for the Associations to force owners to pay for others (except in the case where the legal steps to foreclosure have been strictly adhered to). That is the purpose of the massive disclosures each and every sale comes included with. You, I, management and even the Legislatures cannot retroactively change that. They can only make it apply to future sales and then only if fully disclosed to buyers prior to them entering into a sales agreement (of course they have to READ it). Only Wastegate and other borderline organizations think they have that type of right to alter real estate deals after the fact. They don't and neither do we.

If that plan (accept all deed backs) is a goal then have laws written to allow it for future buyers. I doubt many would purchase if that was the law but you never know. We as timeshare owners think our little corner of the world is oh so critical but in the larger picture it's small change. Timeshare is an outgrowth of condo law and what effects one often applies to the other. While there is a problem with timeshare glut and a non-existent resale market that will sort itself out over time and without any drastic re-do of the real estate law that helped create the whole segment.

Again, far better we look to solve the problem with a workable resale marketplace, better features for the poor times at resorts and more creative (but legal) ways to make the prime times pay a more proportional share of expenses. That should be tied to rental/trade/seasonal value rather equal costs for all weeks regardless of those values. That is the real culprit to unwanted times. No value for the fees. Fix that and you've fixed the PCC & collection problems IMO.
 
Definitely give Judi a call. She is located in Orlando, and my wife and I were fortunate enough to be able to meet with her and her husband when we were down there to sit through an HGVC presentation. I remember her telling us how much time she has devoted to fighting fraud related to timeshare purchases. I definitely think she would be a good source of advice for you. Good luck! :)
 
rrlongwell

... Are LLC's protected even if commit felonies?

___________

update: just checked BBB, & filed my own report, just requested "refund" at this point. Thanks for support.

No, law enforcement persons and/or courts can (and often will) go after the "owners" of the LLC if felonies are detected. It's called "piercing the corporate veil".
 
Two former TUG members created a corporation and tried to acquire many weeks in some timeshare units in Colorado. Boca knows who these guys are...

Their plan was to call all owners and buy their weeks for the market price of $0-$2K or so for the most prime weeks. First, there was a battle to get the owners' names and phone numbers, which required lawyer fees. Then the resort and BOD (I was on the board and was the lonely vote of yes, give it to them without a battle) decided they would make it difficult to get this information, even though the law dictated it was their right to the information.

The problems were nonstop. Owners who paid $15K for their weeks 31 years ago now were not inclined to take $2K for the weeks they were told by the salesman would "go up" in value because they are prime ski weeks. You could never get $2K on the open market for these prime weeks, by the way. But these two guys wanted to be fair to the ski week owners and offer as much as they could for those weeks. There are about 19 weeks a year that are "ski" weeks, with some being better than others.

That particular resort at the time had 3 bedroom whole-owned units selling for $219K. By the time they sold their single timeshare unit as wholly-owned, the value was way down because of the economy. The 2 bedroom sold for about $129K. It was their only success story.

They owned hundreds of weeks between the two of them, which they are selling off slowly on eBay.

I am no longer on the board of that resort because the gossip by the resort manager and some of the other board members about these two guys, who are good guys, was making me nuts. Yes, the management company would suffer if the resort no longer stayed a timeshare, and yes, the two guys did ask the resort to take the weeks back in large numbers, but the gossip-y, snotty attitudes of the board members toward them was aggravating.
 
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You need to fire your HOA board. It is 100% their fault. All they needed to do to prevent this from happening is send out a letter to all owners saying that you will take deedbacks for any owners if they pay the transfer fee and 2 years worth of maintenance fees.

Since your board failed to act, it is 100% on them.

Bull. I agree that smart HOA's should take deedbacks in the hardship cases of people that call and ask, but sending out the letter you suggest is asking for trouble. As usual, you blame the victim.

When I was on an HOA board for eight years, our resort always took deedbacks, but we did not go out beating the bushes to ask people to deedback. That was the policy of most HOA's in our area and it worked fine.
 
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I have never known of a resort to be worthless, and I doubt that any are. Some weeks may have little value but the resort itself will always have value.

When you signed up for a timeshare, you agreed to the rules. One of those rules is that termination requires a supermajority, and in many cases unanimous consent, a difficult proposition. Then it is a simple question of democracy. If someone doesn't want to abide by the rules, they should never have bought the timeshare.

There is no fiduciary duty of an HOA board to ENSURE that there is a resale market for weeks. I have read quite a few Articles of Incorporation of HOA's and have yet to find that duty even implied. Boards do have a duty to try to resell weeks that the HOA itself acquires by deedback or foreclosure and sound business practice would suggest that HOA's also provide advice to owners on selling their weeks. HOA's are non-profit corporations and thus limited in their business activities by law.

PCC's are scam artists who lie about lots of things to con their vicims out of money. I feel sorry for their victims who follow their frequent tax advice which could get the victim in serious trouble with the IRS. Several state AG's have already nailed PCC's for their frauds on the civil side, making them pay civil penalties and resitution to their victims. PCC's are sleazebags, yet you say you side with their business model? I hope more state AG's will get into the act and put these vermin out of busienss.

My premise is simple. If the resort is worthless, then the timeshare plan should be terminated. If the owners refuse to terminate the timeshare plan, then they deserve the increased maintenance fees and reserves.

A timeshare ownership should not be a life sentence. If the HOAs won't take action, then PCCs are the right business model to support owners who want out.

It is the fiduciary responsibility of the HOA board to ensure that there is a market for their timeshare units. If there isn't one, they should recommend termination of the timeshare plan. It's really as simple as that. You don't have any argument that trumps this notion. The HOA board is not serving its members well if the timeshare units are worthless and there is another higher and better use of the property on the open market.
 
Why are all PCCs lumped together as sleazebags?
 
Why are all PCCs lumped together as sleazebags?

Because there are VERY FEW that don't do something illegal or unethical - most of the upfront fee companies simply pocket the upfront fee, and never perform on the promised services. Usually the service that is offered in the phone call is completely different that what is stated in the contract - if there is a contract. The worst of them simply steal the upfront fee. A woman with a scam like this just got 15 years.
 
I have never known of a resort to be worthless, and I doubt that any are. Some weeks may have little value but the resort itself will always have value.

When you signed up for a timeshare, you agreed to the rules. One of those rules is that termination requires a supermajority, and in many cases unanimous consent, a difficult proposition. Then it is a simple question of democracy. If someone doesn't want to abide by the rules, they should never have bought the timeshare.

There is no fiduciary duty of an HOA board to ENSURE that there is a resale market for weeks. I have read quite a few Articles of Incorporation of HOA's and have yet to find that duty even implied. Boards do have a duty to try to resell weeks that the HOA itself acquires by deedback or foreclosure and sound business practice would suggest that HOA's also provide advice to owners on selling their weeks. HOA's are non-profit corporations and thus limited in their business activities by law.

PCC's are scam artists who lie about lots of things to con their vicims out of money. I feel sorry for their victims who follow their frequent tax advice which could get the victim in serious trouble with the IRS. Several state AG's have already nailed PCC's for their frauds on the civil side, making them pay civil penalties and resitution to their victims. PCC's are sleazebags, yet you say you side with their business model? I hope more state AG's will get into the act and put these vermin out of busienss.

My premise is simple. If the resort is worthless, then the timeshare plan should be terminated. If the owners refuse to terminate the timeshare plan, then they deserve the increased maintenance fees and reserves.

A timeshare ownership should not be a life sentence. If the HOAs won't take action, then PCCs are the right business model to support owners who want out.

It is the fiduciary responsibility of the HOA board to ensure that there is a market for their timeshare units. If there isn't one, they should recommend termination of the timeshare plan. It's really as simple as that. You don't have any argument that trumps this notion. The HOA board is not serving its members well if the timeshare units are worthless and there is another higher and better use of the property on the open market.
 
if you use eBay & paypal to buy timeshare...

don't let transaction to last more then 120 days! At least fill report at 119th day to hold your money.

good luck!
 
Deed?

Bought Hilton Club last Feb 2011 on eBay from "Selling Time Guys". Signed the paperwork, told delays due to needing a few more pages signed, signed those, mailed back. Every few months, they told me to keep waiting, so much paperwork and in process of being recorded.

Then last week, realizing it's been almost full 12 months since purchase by PayPal, tried last few days to call & e-mail only to find that now they have no eBay listings, do not answer ringing phone during business hours, do not respond to e-mails, and their web site freezes up when try to search by Escrow #. I've already called credit card company & spoke with eBay too (limit of 120 days credit claims & limit is 45 days for claims of fraud on eBay). I was told probably out my money (over $7,000). But now I'm worried it's possibly far worse than losing my money, as now am worried what they may have done with my signature and social security # that they required.

Their stationary reads:
Elite Resort Transfers, LLC
130 S. Orange Ave, Suite 200B
Orlando, FL 32801
(407) 843-1214

www.eliteresorttransfers.com

Help!!! Any advice?:bawl:

Have you checked the most current deed to see if title has tranferred in the last 12+ months, and if so to whom? You may own it but not know it, in which case Hilton wants their MF's.

I don't know what county this TS is in or if you can check/view deeds on-line for real property in that county, which we can here in Clark County (Las Vegas) or in Riverside County where my Marriott Shadow Ridge is located. Without repeating everything posted here (Moderators would NOT be happy), on the Hilton/HGVC boards you could post a general question if anybody knows how to check/view TS/Real-Property deeds on-line for the Hilton Club or other TS's in Manhattan, NY.

If it was me, the first thing I would do is check the deed.

Also, as you stated, call the current owner(s) to see what they know.
 
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Hilton Club NY is located in NYC, and all NYC deed transfer should be prepared by attorney which makes closing cost more than 1k.
Maybe that was the problem selling time guys had... they couldn't prepare a new deed legally due to that requirement.
 
Because there are VERY FEW that don't do something illegal or unethical - most of the upfront fee companies simply pocket the upfront fee, and never perform on the promised services. Usually the service that is offered in the phone call is completely different that what is stated in the contract - if there is a contract. The worst of them simply steal the upfront fee. A woman with a scam like this just got 15 years.

Aren't sumday, cj timeshares, and timesharepro1 all PCCs? I hear generally positive things about them.
 
same reason most people lump timeshare salesmen into the same category most likely.
 
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